Ireland summer review

First topic message reminder :

OK so between the North American and the Lions tours what did we learn about Ireland this summer? Here's my thoughts prior to Joe Schmidt taking up the reigns:
 
Fullback
 
Kearney had a frustrating Lions tour with injury and Felix jones didn't do much to allay concerns that he's a spent force.
 
Henshaw isn't ready yet but maybe Zebo can add some depth here. 
 
Wings
 
Bowe had a mixed Lions tour, made the test side again and was solid in defence but we didn't see enough of him to see if he is back to his best. Needs more games to get fit but is still a class act and a top footballer.
 
Zebo impressed in his brief Lions display after a poor game against the USA.
 
McFadden scored a hatrick against Canada, where Trimble also stood out as with Gilroy to come back the wings should be very competitive in the Autumn. Bowe and Zebo look like a cut above though.
 
Centres.
 
O'Driscoll despite being dropped for the 3rd Lions test, showed he's still a test quality player if not the force he was in 09 in attack. The body stood up to the tour which is a good sign and he'll be keen to go out on a high.
 
Cave, Olding and Downey all had reasonable summers but probably haven't done enough to leapfrog the injured Earls, Marshall and D'arcy.
 
One of Schmidts biggest challenges is to find a combination that functions in attack and provide some potency with the ball. This won't be easy looking at the options available and BOD is still key which is worrying so close to the RWC.
 
Fly Halfs.
 
Sexton was a key man in the Lions series win and confirmed his status as Europes premier 10. Concerns remain about his goal kicking though were he was deemed surplus to requirements.
 
Madigan impressed over the summer and leapfrogged Jackson as second choice who has time on his side to surpass the other two.
 
Despite ROG's retirement fly half looks a real area of strength although place kicking may be a concern in big games.
 
Scrum half
 
Murray thrived under the Welsh power game but I think will still struggle for Ireland and munster without the big carriers to run off him. Remains first choice though.
 
Boss looked good in America and fits Schmidts tactics well. Not much time for Marshall but looks to be easing into the picture although the aging Reddan will come back into the occaision when fit and Marmion is coming through as well.
 
Although there are question Marks over all the options individually I think we look in decent nick here.
 
Schmidt likes the scrum half to play a smart heads up game and deliver quick ball, in contrast to the quasi backrower favoured by Kidney, so whoever can fit the mould best and adapt to Schmidts style will have the advantage.  
 
Back row.
 
SOB was probably the standout backrow for the Lions despite only playing 1 test, and was excellent at both 6 and 7
 
Heaslip played some of his best rugby in years to start 2 tests before eventually being usurped by the excellent Faletau.
 
O'Mahoney impressed with his leadership for Ireland but the backrow struggled againt the physicality of the Eagles. TOD did well against Canada but Henry and McLaughlin didn't have the best ends to the season, nor did Henderson but given its his first full season that is understandable.
 
Ferris is badly missed with his carrying and power, with only Henderson looking capably of filling the void from the big man.
 
Finding the right balance will be a challenge and getting the best out of SOB is key to getting the best from Ireland.  
 
Lock
 
O'Connell showed he's still the man, when fit, but suffered yet another injury which is worrying.
 
No Ryan but Toner had a decent tour and his partnership with the powerful Touhy looks quite balanced. McCarthy didn't have a great summer to back up his much hyped AI performances.
 
Still an area of relative weakness with some fairly average options, by international standards, behind POC and Ryan.  
 
Prop.
 
Loosehead looks okish. Healy had a bit of a nightmare tour but would have been a test contender if fit. Kilcoyne has some way to go but is a reasonable backup as is Court.
 
TH is a big worry though - Ross looks totally shot and none of the other options look up to much.
 
Hooker.
 
Another area of concern. Best didn't have a great Lions tour and still looks short of confidence and top form. Strauss looks totally out of sorts and his bench place must be under serious pressure from Cronin.
 
Conclusion
 
Overall a mixed bag. The Lions tour showed that we still have a handful of top quality players,albeit some aging ones - Bowe, Heaslip, BOD, O'Connell, Healy, SOB, Sexton - with Zebo and Murray enhancing their reputations too.
 
Depth in key positions particularly in the front 5 and a lack of strike threat and power in midfield for me are the key concerns that Schmidt needs to address if we are to put in a decent 6N showing.

He also is exceptional at the old offloading.
Don't think he can play 13 think he is very similar in ability to Marshall they seem to share the same traits in my opinion. I think he could have toured the USA if he hadn't been injured, think he was in an Irish training squad before.

I think one of the Irish centres needs to be a strong guy who can get us some go forward ball. Those lads would include Bowe, Marshall, mcsharry. Then have another nippier fella like olding, earls ( ) Payne, bod

For the RWC 2015, massive prediction/guess: you all owe me a pint if this comes to pass, no excuses!

Healy-Sherry-Archer
Ryan-Henderson
SOB-Heaslip (c) -Leavy
Marmion-Sexton
Marshall-Payne
Earls-Zebo-Bowe

Best-Kilcoyne-Hagan-Tuohy-POM-McGrath-Madigan-Fitzgerald

Is Leavy really that good in your opinion? I have seen very little of him play.

I hope to see more second row options on the scene over the next 2 years too. If Ryan, Tuohy and Henderson (who may stay at 6 regardless) are the options we have, then we will be looking very scarce indeed.

The same goes for number 8, I hope to see more people challenge Heaslip. I don't actually think Heaslip was all that effective for the Lions when it came to the actual tests. He is decent but nothing spectacular.

Also I would pick Gilroy over Earls on the wing, definitely.

Murray will also still be in the mix I would imagine. He looked better than Phillips or Youngs on the Lions tour.

Ireland's problem is mainly in the tight five. Specifically tight head and lock. Ross isn't great but he is the only starting Irish TH for his province. Nathan White won't qualify for another year, and maybe Archer or another may have impressed by then.
At least TH has some options emerging, whereas lock is lacking serious Test quality both now and on the horizon. Schmidt won't be able to get the backs to do much without the ball.

Rory- I have seen him play a fair bit and he looks real quality IMO, much better than some of the other prospects coming through in Leinster.

Ausker-
What are Hagan's chances of starting for London Irish in your opinion? Archer should get a lot of gametime this year too. In terms of locks, POC and Ryan are obviously very good and I believe they compliment each other very well in a modern rugby environment. Add to that Tuohy and possibly Henderson and we aren't doing awfully in that regard but that being said we aren't doing well. I still wouldn't write off Toner until he is 29 or so.

Hagan won't be near the starting line up at LI so long as Aulika is at the club. He was probably their best player last season and has a rediculous try scoring record for a TH.

Hagan will get plenty of gametime though Id imagine.

Hagan's chances of starting are slim enough but he can work his way onto the bench. It is absolutely right that young Irish props move to the AP to learn the position. Ireland are producing so many tightheads they are even giving a few to England!

The set piece is as much to do with the lock combinations as the front row. POC is a fairly unique mix of power and athleticism, but he is increasingly absent as injuries catch up with him. Locks such as Ryan, McCarthy and Tuohy have athleticism but are underpowered. Stevenson and DOC have power but lack the dynamism necessary for Test rugby. Toner has neither (for now), and Henderson doesn't have the hard power required of a Test lock (yet?).

The importance of the lock as a leader should not be forgotten either. The big men are naturally the ones the team looks to when the going is tough. That's what disappoints me about Neil McComb so much, he has the size, the power, the hands and speed, but the drive of a lethargic lettuce.

Golden generations are not guaranteed to find pots of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Neither do golden generations automatically regenerate like Dr Who.

Is Ireland preparing itself for 2-5 years of 3/4th place 6Ns (if they last) mediocrity?

I wish Hagan had stayed at Leinster. He was finally starting to play really well for us at the end. Same with Conway. His decision to go to Munster mystifies me.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Golden generations are not guaranteed to find pots of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Neither do golden generations automatically regenerate like Dr Who.

Is Ireland preparing itself for 2-5 years of 3/4th place 6Ns (if they last) mediocrity?

Nope for me we should be aiming to win at least 4 games in the next 6N,England away being the only one I think we might struggle.As a coach Schmidt is in a different class to what we've had before and he can pick apart an opponents weakness like nobody I've ever seen.Personally I think Ireland are in for a period of success like we've never seen before.

The Great Aukster wrote:Hagan's chances of starting are slim enough but he can work his way onto the bench. It is absolutely right that young Irish props move to the AP to learn the position. Ireland are producing so many tightheads they are even giving a few to England!

The set piece is as much to do with the lock combinations as the front row. POC is a fairly unique mix of power and athleticism, but he is increasingly absent as injuries catch up with him. Locks such as Ryan, McCarthy and Tuohy have athleticism but are underpowered. Stevenson and DOC have power but lack the dynamism necessary for Test rugby. Toner has neither (for now), and Henderson doesn't have the hard power required of a Test lock (yet?).

The importance of the lock as a leader should not be forgotten either. The big men are naturally the ones the team looks to when the going is tough. That's what disappoints me about Neil McComb so much, he has the size, the power, the hands and speed, but the drive of a lethargic lettuce.

I entirely disagree with that statement about Hendy. He lacks the workrate of a test second row, definitely, which is something he can easily fix with time and experience. However, he is probably one of the only players in Ireland with the potential to match up with the likes of Etzebeth, Whitelock and Launchberry. All of these guys are very mobile and physical locks.

He is extremely powerful, especially at his age. We need players like Hendy to give us much needed momentum.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I entirely disagree with that statement about Hendy.  He lacks the workrate of a test second row, definitely, which is something he can easily fix with time and experience.  However, he is probably one of the only players in Ireland with the potential to match up with the likes of Etzebeth, Whitelock and Launchberry.  All of these guys are very mobile and physical locks.

He is extremely powerful, especially at his age.  We need players like Hendy to give us much needed momentum.

Power = work done/time i.e. rate of doing work or "workrate".

By definition lacking workrate also means lacking power, so there is an inherent contradiction in what you are saying.
IMO Henderson doesn't have the power yet to be a Test lock, but he certainly has the potential.

We are measuring the power of athletes, not the power at which energy is transferred in physics terms..

In sporting terms, power is a measure of an athlete's speed x strength.  Hendy is one of the most explosive ball carriers and tacklers in Ireland, and we don't seem to get such big powerful specimens too often anymore.  He is literally like Ferris mark II with the added height. I remember many wanting Ferris to move to lock, so maybe this is a real option with Hendy.

When people refer to a player as being powerful, they are not talking about their work rate.

Rory - your definition of power = speed x strength is actually the same as that in physics.
Speed is distance/time and let's say "strength" equates to force (weights), then Power = Force x distance/time (or rate of doing work as above ).

Without getting further into meaningless semantics, and back onto Henderson, we know he has speed and strength and been impressive in bursts. This has been when he has played in the back row, as opposed to the more sustained "power" required in the boiler-room role. I wouldn't describe POC as having explosive power, but the power he does have is distributed over the whole 80 minutes ebbing and flowing as dictated by the game demands. Maybe Henderson can develop that over time, but right now he has explosive power that IMO is much more suited to the third row of the scrum.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:For the RWC 2015, massive prediction/guess: you all owe me a pint if this comes to pass, no excuses!

Healy-Sherry-Archer
Ryan-Henderson
SOB-Heaslip (c) -Leavy
Marmion-Sexton
Marshall-Payne
Earls-Zebo-Bowe

Best-Kilcoyne-Hagan-Tuohy-POM-McGrath-Madigan-Fitzgerald

POC will still be around in 2 years time I'd say.


Also the following players all have a chance.. Tom Daly, Gilsenan, Jack Conan, Jackson, Hanrahan, Olding, Chris Farrell, Martin Moore, Tadhg Furlong, Tadhg Beirne, Luke McGrath, Henshaw, McSharry. There'll also be players who nobody sees coming.


Wildcards: Shane Layden, Denis Buckley, Tom Farrell, Rory Scholes, Darren Hudson, Niall Scannell, Crosbie, James Cronin. Shane Layden has impressed me more than Henshaw the few times I've seen him. He was injured for a long period and hopefully hes back this season.

The Great Aukster wrote:Rory - your definition of power = speed x strength is actually the same as that in physics.
Speed is distance/time and let's say "strength" equates to force (weights), then Power = Force x distance/time (or rate of doing work as above ).

Without getting further into meaningless semantics, and back onto Henderson, we know he has speed and strength and been impressive in bursts. This has been when he has played in the back row, as opposed to the more sustained "power" required in the boiler-room role. I wouldn't describe POC as having explosive power, but the power he does have is distributed over the whole 80 minutes ebbing and flowing as dictated by the game demands. Maybe Henderson can develop that over time, but right now he has explosive power that IMO is much more suited to the third row of the scrum.

 Ausker it sounds like you are talking about energy more than power which I would consider as strength and mass and speed I guess.

What decent second row prospects are coming through? Honestly, we can have an abundance of talent in the back row, at 10, in the centres and in the back three, but if we don't have a solid tight 5 at the bare minimum, it will count for very little.

We have a lot of great options at loosehead. We have a few guys at hooker, but maybe not any outstanding options just yet, especially if Best doesn't regain his form. At 3, 4 and 5 we look very bare indeed. If Hendy is considered here then at least we look a bit stronger. If he doesn't stay in the blindside position.

I really hope Paddy McAllister makes a hugely successful transition to tighthead but I'm not holding my breath. He is very injury prone for a start.

When are our N. America and Georgia tourists available to play for the provinces this season? From the get-go? Or a couple of games in?

Rory, theres alot of hype in Munster about John Madigan. Hes only 18 yet though and it is hype although he has been playing for Dolphin and is almost 19st already. Darren O'Shea is another Dolphin lock brought into the Munster academy. He is 6'9". Overall I'd say we'll be ok for second rows. Maybe Ian Nagle might come good if he gets a chance (I wouldn't count on it!).

I think Tadhg Beirne is a quality player. Saw him last year for the Ireland U20s and he looked quality. He was a bit lightweight then so the jury is still out.

Sin é wrote:I wouldn't write off Tomas O'Leary just yet, now that he has had his surgery.

Hope it was brain-surgery. To cut two seconds off his speed of delivery.

This guy is supposed to be a reasonable scrum-half. He's blatantly not.  He's like Eddie The Eagle.

How he ever got to play for Munster & Ireland is a complete and  utter mystery to me.

Oh. Hauld on there a cotton pickin minute... who was Coach?

Ok Roysh. So glad he's gone. Not in a bad way, just in an extremely relieved way. Tanks Deccie. Thanks for wasting 5 feicing years of Irish rugby development.

What we dreamed of has happened. Joe is in.

Believe.

O'Leary was such a weapon for the way the rules required the game to be played in 2009. As soon as the laws changed he was basically useless.

Sounds like both Humphreys and O'Leary are going well at LI. Obviously I don't think they should be first choice but should they come back into international reckoning?

Gibson wrote:

Sin é wrote:I wouldn't write off Tomas O'Leary just yet, now that he has had his surgery.

Hope it was brain-surgery. To cut two seconds off his speed of delivery.

I come in 2 seconds FFS, including thoughtful foreplay. But this guy is supposed to be a reasonable scrum-half. He's blatantly not.  He's like Eddie The Eagle.

How he ever got to play for Munster & Ireland is a complete and  utter phhoking mystery to me.

Oh. Hauld on there a cotton pickin minute... who was Coach?

Ok Roysh. So glad he's gone. Not in a bad way, just in an extremely relieved way. Tanks Deccie. Thanks for wasting 5 phhooking years of Irish rugby development.

What we dreamed of has happened. Joe is in.

Believe.

don't forget the Lions Gibbo .... would have been first choice as well if he didn't have that leg break. He had a great debut against New Zealand as well.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:O'Leary was such a weapon for the way the rules required the game to be played in 2009. As soon as the laws changed he was basically useless.

Breaking his leg was more significant. Think he came back too soon and then developed back trouble which he played with. Hopefully that is rectified now, though he was really going well before his op for London Irish.

Any news on Joe Schmidts new coach?

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:O'Leary was such a weapon for the way the rules required the game to be played in 2009. As soon as the laws changed he was basically useless.

Breaking his leg was more significant. Think he came back too soon and then developed back trouble which he played with. Hopefully that is rectified now, though he was really going well before his op for London Irish.

Leg break or no, he was going to have to change his style of play to put more emphasis on the weaker parts of his game.

Conor Murray has had his critics, but he's set about proving he's a much more versatile and rounded player than O'Leary was when he left Ireland. Though I'd like to get a chance to see O'Leary play more, I haven't been watching London Irish so it's not like I can comment on him that much.

In answer to rodders' question- we don't need either of them unless there are injuries. There are four very talented 10s across Ulster, Leinster and Munster who are younger than Humphreys so even if he's in top form we should look to the future. O'Leary hasn't proven he is better than Murray, Reddan, Isaac Boss, Paul Marshall- not all of those guys are brilliant but its harder to prove that point when you are out of sight and mind but I'd be inclined to stick with the guys who are available for training camps unless the overseas player is considerably better than his rivals (i.e. Sexton this year, Tommy Bowe when he was with Ospreys etc.)

No real mention of Ferris yet? Returning after a long layoff, that time could have done wonders for his longevity. Seemed like he was off to Japan but Ulster offering him a new contract is encouraging. Would love to see him back to his best.

Just waiting for him to get fit again.

The six month contract is a chance to get himself fit and as far as I'm aware he's not expected to play for the first four of those months so the last two months will be critical to see if he has a future in rugby. Ulster and Ireland giving him every chance to be fair.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:O'Leary was such a weapon for the way the rules required the game to be played in 2009. As soon as the laws changed he was basically useless.

Breaking his leg was more significant. Think he came back too soon and then developed back trouble which he played with. Hopefully that is rectified now, though he was really going well before his op for London Irish.

Leg break or no, he was going to have to change his style of play to put more emphasis on the weaker parts of his game.

Conor Murray has had his critics, but he's set about proving he's a much more versatile and rounded player than O'Leary was when he left Ireland. Though I'd like to get a chance to see O'Leary play more, I haven't been watching London Irish so it's not like I can comment on him that much.

In answer to rodders' question- we don't need either of them unless there are injuries. There are four very talented 10s across Ulster, Leinster and Munster who are younger than Humphreys so even if he's in top form we should look to the future. O'Leary hasn't proven he is better than Murray, Reddan, Isaac Boss, Paul Marshall- not all of those guys are brilliant but its harder to prove that point when you are out of sight and mind but I'd be inclined to stick with the guys who are available for training camps unless the overseas player is considerably better than his rivals (i.e. Sexton this year, Tommy Bowe when he was with Ospreys etc.)

Not sure what his great weeknesses are (other than people going on about fast passes). Guys like Reddan has to get rid of the ball quick (and fling it anywhere) because they will get turned over if they don't).

A bit soon to write off someone who you haven't seen playing in about 18 months. From all accounts (even carrying his back injury) he was excellent for London Irish and their fans seem to be delighted that he is there.

O'Leary doesn't have to be better than Murray to be involved (he is a better option than the rest - don't forget he is was the GS winning flyhalf and he is the first choice scrumhalf at his club, unlike Reddan (coming back from a leg break), BOss and P Marshall). I'd imagine that like Sexton & Bowe, he will have got it written into hid contract that they will be made available for all training camps (though I'm sure London Irish would make him available anyway considering a substantial number might of their supporters might not like if he wasn't).

O'Leary got a load of stick the season before he left that wasn't warrented, Murray wasn't setting the world alight and people were cutting him slack. Haven't seen him at Irish but they're happy with him so he can't be doing too bad. He won't get a look in but that's more to do with the fact that Ireland don't select those outside the country. O'Leary's passing could have been better it actually seemed to decline as he improved other facets of his game could always do with him for the hurlers mind you.

Sin I wouldn't think a sizable portion of London Irish's fans are of Irish descent anymore although I would say I could be completely wrong about that.

How is the Irish summer going? Currently 34 degrees here. Noticeably cooler after temperatures grazing 40 last week.

It's been going great weather's actually been consistently goo for the first time in years high 20s and low 30s all of last week never seen anything like it here.


Irish people have still found ways to b!tch about th weather I've heard people giving out that it's too hot and why doesn't any place have air conditioning!

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:How is the Irish summer going?

It's too hot and there isn't enough rain.

 Trust you guys to find the gloomy side of things.

Good to hear though. 4 or 5 years back some Irish friends told me it rained 54 days consecutively. And not just a summer shower. Hammering it down. I get nervous here if I see a cloud. Even a white fluffy one. I'd be a jibbering wreck faced with that.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
Good to hear though. 4 or 5 years back some Irish friends told me it rained 54 days consecutively.

I'm guessing he went abroad on day 55?

Kia, I must confess to being happy to see a few clouds today (I haven't been moaning about the weather either).

Mind you, I like our climate now (having spent a few months in Western Australia)!

Sadly they drowned rodders...

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Sadly they drowned rodders...

Sin é wrote:Kia, I must confess to being happy to see a few clouds today (I haven't been moaning about the weather either).

Mind you, I like our climate now (having spent a few months in Western Australia)!

Heard about that on the news. Next time more petrol in the landcruiser and a compass and map.

Rainfall in Ireland is actually quit low.

Average rainfall for Dublin is about 750 mls. Auckland is 1150 and Sydney is nearly 1300.

Ok Madrid is only 450 but that is exceptional.

Ask most Aussie, Kiwi or even Irish people which place is the rainiest of the 3. They will all say Ireland.

Thing is it rains "a little" on a lot of days here, but rarely rains heavily.

As a guy who used to cycle to work a lot between 8:30 and 9. You would be surprised how infrequently you would get soaked.

The point about rain in Ireland is that when it rains ... it hangs around, both in the air and saturated into the land, building etc.  It's not the amount of rain that gets Ireland its reputation, it's the lack of sufficient heat for most of the year to evaporate it all away again quickly.

Rain. I don't mind real rain. What annoys me is what I call "urine you off drizzle", which Ireland specializes in.

Soft day tank God.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Rainfall in Ireland is actually quit low.

I take it you don't spend much time in Donegal Jen ....

rodders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Rainfall in Ireland is actually quit low.

I take it you don't spend much time in Donegal Jen ....

Yeah Dublin is in a little pocket of low rainfall on the east coast. I think Belmullet in Mayo is the wettest. You can drive out there in blinding sunlight only to discover a jacket of cloud around it that is lashing rain all over the shop

http://www.met.ie/climate/rainfall.asp
 
So roughly speaking the west gets an average of 75 days more rain per year than the east....so spare a thought for the auld bogger men the next time you're sipping pimms at the RDS Jen ......

Every time I go to Ravenhill It's pi$$ing down. I brought some Ulster mates down for the Biarritz game in the RDS they were nlown away by the nice weather and how polite and friendly everyone was.

I even organised good weather for the Rabo final.............

Ravenhill is special it has its own unique climate unkown to anyone. It is dry in the rest of Belfast even occasionally sunny but you get to Ravenhill and its raining away

Raininhill.