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Can Australia turn this around?

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Post by Biltong Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

Like the title says, can Australia fight back?

So far in the series.

Siddle first test 8/135
Siddle second test 3/141

Starc first test 5/135
Second test dropped

Pattinson first test 5/170
Pattinson second test 2/137

Agar first test 2/106
Agar second test 0/142.

Watson first test 0/18
Watson second test 1/70

Harris second test 7/105

Batting top 6.
Watson 109 runs, average 27.25
Rogers 89 runs, average 22.25, 1 fifty.
Khawaja 68 runs, average 34, 1 fifty
Hughes 83 runs, average 27.66, 1 fifty
Clarke 102 runs, average 25.50, 1 fifty
Smith 73 runs, average 18.25, 1 fifty
Haddin 86 runs, average 21.50, 1 fifty

It seems nobody is in form, Clarke who was on fire not so long ago and who has carried the Australian batting dinglehandedly against SA is nowhere near his best, Watson still doesn't seem to me at least to be able to consistently perform in the test arena, and the batting in general still seems very vulnerable.

You surely can't blame it on foreign conditions, Anderson with 13 wickets for 238 runs, Swann with 13 wickets for 288 runs, with some contributions from the rest of their bowlers seem to have Australia's number.

I am just wondering how much Lehman can really change in such a short preparation time before the Ashes, and would it not have been more prudent to retain Mickey Arthur until at least the end of the Ashes series in England with Lehman being there in the background to assess matters from a team relation and individual mindset before taking over.

Cricket players don't all of a sudden get into bad form all at the sme time. In my view it seems there are underlying problems and I don't think you need to look further than the mood in th camp or the mental state these players are in.

What do you guys think?
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Post by LondonTiger Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:04 am

Warner in trouble again?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jul/27/australia-david-warner-south-africa

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Post by mystiroakey Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:50 am

what is wrong with that lad!

jeas.

he had to be pulled off by his team mates..

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Post by Mike Selig Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:55 am

Erm no, the other guy had to pulled away from his team-mates.

Seems like Tsolekile took offence at something that was said to him during his innings, and thought he'd have a go back at Warner, and things got out of hand. The British media has now spun this as another Warner misdemeanor.

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Post by LondonTiger Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:28 am

Warner sledges the South African during his long innings, but cannot take it when it comes back. That is how I read it.

the aussie media is on Warner's case over this much more than the british.

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Post by Mike Selig Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:09 am

Tsolekile had to be pulled away from Warner, and the umpires spoke to both players - those are the only two facts we've been given so far. How anyone could conclude from that that it's Warner who "cannot take it when it comes back" is astonishing. That Tsolekile had to be pulled away suggests that he was the one losing his rag, not Warner...

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Post by Mike Selig Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:22 am

Whilst I'm not necessarily Warner's biggest fan, this seems to me a classic case of trying to make a mountain out of very little, because there's not much else to talk about, and Warner's past means he'll be closely watched. CA have dismissed the incident, which the umpires didn't even report. Altercations happen all the time on cricket fields, and there's nothing to suggest this was anything but two players having a go at each other and things getting a bit heated.

Given how meekly Australia have capitulated in recent times, perhaps a bit of fire on the field won't go amiss anyway.

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Post by alfie Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:36 pm

Might be a bit of fire indeed wouldn't go amiss...on the other hand , even a minor incident like this might be seen as confirming Warner's tendency to lose it ...
Don't think it will stop them picking him if they are that way inclined. Though I am surprised it is being said he will come back as a number six. Reckon he is an opener and should be played there.
Can't help thinking the selection of five regular openers for the Ashes squad is helping to confuse selection a bit.

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Post by kingraf Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:45 pm

Tsolekile isnt a guy known for blowing his top, so I wonder what Warner said. But given that TT didnt kick his a$$ there and then, and the umpires didnt report it... I assume it was a bit of banter maybe gone wrong.
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Post by gboycottnut Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:44 am

If Australia select the following XI for the remaining 3 Ashes tests, they actually do have a good chance of winning all 3 tests!

1  Rogers
2  Warner
3  Cowan
4  Watson
5  Clarke
6  Smith
7  Haddin
8  Agar
9  Siddle
10 Harris
11 Bird

A new ball attack of Bird and Harris could give England's batsmen the same kind of problems that they haven't experienced since McGrath and Gillespie were opening the bowling in their prime in the 1997 and 2001 Ashes series.

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Post by mystiroakey Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:33 am

A good chance of winning 3 tests in a row v england..Shocked Shocked Shocked 

come on thats crazy.

a chance yes.

a good one- laughing 

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Post by Cowshot Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:26 pm

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: IF Warner scores another 193 off 225, IF Cook and Flower allow complacency; IF our top three continue failing to score AND a number of other obvious IFs relating to the Aussie batting line up. Were it any other side than Australia in this position I'd simply say no, not possible. But long experience of watching and listening to British and Irish sides play the Aussies in Cricket and Rugby has me convinced that you NEVER take your foot off an Australian's sporting neck until someone has put a stake through his or her sporting heart. And personally I'd concrete the coffin just to be on the safe side Wink

I agree with the poster who said he hoped that the England side didn't sledge Warner because that sort of personality feeds off it. Think the best thing is to give him nothing. The crowd can be relied upon to give him plenty. I believe the chant is already out there: "He swings to the left, he swings to the right, that prat David Warner, His punch is bloody Poopie."

In the longer term, I'm struck by the parallels between Australia at the moment and England when they hit rock bottom (which I personally place as when old Nasser got booed off at the Oval - and turned up on a chat show the following night to face the Poopie head on. I've been an admirer ever since). All the same things are being blamed and used as excuses: state of the pitches; nature of first class competition; influence of the shorter form of the game and inconsistency in selection. Some of them are certainly true, possibly all of them, of both sides. This is by far the worst Australian side I've seen (or rather, listened to, these days) on their performances to date. It's worse than Kim Hughes lot, iirc. I can't believe they can't play better.

Personally, thinking back over the great Aussie sides of the past there's one thing lacking I haven't seen mentioned anywhere: Moustaches. All the great Aussies sides had a few. Don't think Kim Hughes lot did.

But the Ashes are not won yet. And I want a 5-0 nil crushing. Be done by as you did. And keep shaving. Smile

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Post by KP_fan Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:03 am

--Aussies have gotta win the toss....to give them some chance,

--the Indian natured pitches that are being produced hand a huge advantage the team winning the toss batting first......and then even a 200ish chase in the 4th inning for the team batting second.

---win the toss......scramble through to take the game far enouhg and set Eng 200+ and hope they will crumble on a spinning pich and under pressure
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Post by Duty281 Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:01 pm

KP_fan wrote:--Aussies have gotta win the toss....to give them some chance,

--the Indian natured pitches that are being produced hand a huge advantage the team winning the toss batting first......and then even a 200ish chase in the 4th inning for the team batting second.

---win the toss......scramble through to take the game far enouhg and set Eng 200+ and hope they will crumble on a spinning pich and under pressure

Difficult though when you don't have many good spinners.

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Post by KP_fan Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:31 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:--Aussies have gotta win the toss....to give them some chance,

--the Indian natured pitches that are being produced hand a huge advantage the team winning the toss batting first......and then even a 200ish chase in the 4th inning for the team batting second.

---win the toss......scramble through to take the game far enouhg and set Eng 200+ and hope they will crumble on a spinning pich and under pressure

Difficult though when you don't have many good spinners.
 
not just difficult but very difficult.
however losing the task makes it even more difficult.
the've gotta play Hauritz in place of Pattinson....gives them 3 seamers( including Watson) and 3 spinners(including smith)
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Post by LondonTiger Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:01 pm

KP_fan wrote:
the've gotta play Hauritz in place of Pattinson....gives them 3 seamers( including Watson) and 3 spinners(including smith)

Is Hauritz even in the country?

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Post by KP_fan Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:39 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
the've gotta play Hauritz in place of Pattinson....gives them 3 seamers( including Watson) and 3 spinners(including smith)

Is Hauritz even in the country?
 
I meant Lyon...i get confused.....both offspinners and same first names
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Post by VTR Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:03 pm

[quote="KP_fan]
--the Indian natured pitches that are being produced hand a huge advantage the team winning the toss batting first......and then even a 200ish chase in the 4th inning for the team batting second.

[/quote]

Just to be clear: the Indian natured pitches are a result of the freak weather over here i.e. it was very hot and dry for weeks on end. I agree with the outcome of what you say i.e. batting 4th will be very tough but these pitches are not intentionally being produced

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Post by KP_fan Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:29 pm

VTR wrote:
\"KP_fan wrote:
--the Indian natured pitches that are being produced hand a huge advantage the team winning the toss batting first......and then even a 200ish chase in the 4th inning for the team batting second.


Just to be clear: the Indian natured pitches are a result of the freak weather over here i.e. it was very hot and dry for weeks on end. I agree with the outcome of what you say i.e. batting 4th will be very tough but these pitches are not intentionally being produced

hot weather is not in control....understandable
leaving more grass or much more grass on the pitch is in control of curator
watering the pitch.....on days leading to the match and watering it on the morning before the game...is also in control of curator
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Post by VTR Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:51 pm

Nope still don't buy it. The grounds have been in almost constant use for county action (T20 group stages have been on for the last few weeks), therefore all pitches exposed for long periods to the elements. The groundsman can't just nip out and water it whenever he wants.

Not sure where you are based KP_Fan but I actually live in England, I know what its been like here, but if you want to keep arguing black is white then feel free.

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Post by Mike Selig Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:10 pm

Yeah sorry KPF, but VTR is right on this. I've seen pitches from various parts of the country (Sussex, London, Midlands and of course the images on TV) at various standards (Village, club, good club, first class + images on TV) and they've all been dry and dusty. It's more the soil then the grass/water content - simply put, the soil underneath is very very dry, in those conditions you can water all you like (they did water extensively at Lords BTW), a couple of hours in the sun and it will be baked again.

There's only so much grass you can leave on, because the weather only turned fairly recently, and the pitches will have been marked and partially cut before then.

I suspect also that on some of the lesser pitches I've seen, the groundstaff just aren't used to dealing with hot weather. On the test pitches though, not so.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:29 pm

Yeah I know our local pitches in Norfolk are all dust bowls at the minute, and that's despite having a fair whack of rain about. Just so so hot
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Post by king_carlos Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:48 pm

1.Rogers
2.Warner
3.Khawaja
4.Watson
5.Clarke
6.D Hussey
7.Haddin
8.Lyon
9.Siddle
10.Harris
11.Bird

If I were purely picking a side looking at a best shot towards winning the next test that would be it. Without Hussey on the squad I'd pick Smith personally, adds another spin option for Old Trafford and is a cracking fielder.

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Post by KP_fan Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:32 pm

the key to keeping moisture in the pitch is leaving grass on the pitch.....and then it won't dry up as quickly...it's simple and always works...there is no rocket science.
someone is not leaving enough grass on these pitches....and that grass doesn't grow because it's too hot in England thee days is not logical.
why?
let me explain further.
 
I now live on Swiss-German border and am  involved with club cricket both on swiss and german sides.
and hot when it is hot in europe get to high 20s  and low 30s in degC......not counting the odd 35deg C few days we have had this summer.
 
and hot here in Europe is  still much cooler than the hot days in India..when the temp hit low 40s...and even in those high 30s and low 40s we can let the grass grow enough to keep moisture trapped inside for quite some time.
 
I can say that from experience of being in very close circles to those who prepared pitches in India.
As Half my life time back i did  make it to u-19 internationals until bad injries cut out my competitive cricket...
then and thereafter for sometime saw closely those who prepared pitch in Indian northern zone especially.

and then about 10years back i was involved in highest level of club cricket in Houston including pitches where the temperature again gets much higher than UK ...
and now in Germany I have a first hand feel for European weather and soil...far cooler and far less drier than India
 
everywhere..if you don't cut grass.....it grows...and when there is grass it traps moisture...and 4  to 5 days of unshaved grass is enough to keep moisture in for 3 to 4 playing days.
 
and I would believe there is atleast 4 to 5 days between when the last First Class game ends and the test match starts.
 
somebody is instructing to not let the grass grow for these test matches...
 
Sorry I didn't mean to brag about my background and credentials...some questions were asked and I thouhg it important to give some refrences...and my apologies if I sidetracked.
regards
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Post by Mike Selig Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:36 am

You're right to some extent but draw the wrong conclusions, probably because you want to.

I'm not even an England fan (much) so I don't know why I'm defending them, but anyway.

You are right in that to keep moisture in the pitch you need to keep grass on it. However that needs there to be enough moisture in the soil to start with. Put simply this has not been the case recently. The issue was that the weather went from cold and fairly miserable where groundsmen were trying to get rid of moisture (so keeping the grass short), to one week of hot weather which drained all the moisture from the soil (because the grass was short so couldn't keep the moisture in). The soil has turned crumbly, and from that moment on, there simply hasn't been enough moisture for grass to make much difference. This has been the case as far as I've seen European wide.

They don't have grass pitches in Germany so I'm not sure how that's at all relevant. We have 2 grass pitches in France - dry as hell, and crumbly soil; the grass wickets in Holland that I've seen this year: dry as hell, soil crumbly; pitches in Sussex (inc Hove and 2 other good club wickets): you got it, dry as hell, soil crumbly; pitches near Coventry in the Midlands (poor quality): dry as hell, soil crumbly. I could go on...

Unless you are suggesting this is a European wide conspiracy... unless we get some heavy rain and cooler weather pitches will stay dry and crumbly.

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:24 am

Pitches in Scotland are as dry as they have been in almost a decade. Compared to down south, we had a much wetter spring and our heatwave, although enjoyable was not as warm or last as long as England.

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Post by VTR Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:12 am

Excellent posts Mike giving good explanation for what we are all seeing.

KP_Fan - I don't care for your credentials. The Sky commentary team for example are ex-players who played at the highest level and they don't get everything right. The difference to you is they have the humility to admit when they are wrong. This is your problem: you do not debate, you just type the same thing over and over ad nauseum.

This is set to be the hottest, driest July since records began (in 1602), yet of course its all an ECB conspiracy to make Swann (a bowler who had injury concerns coming into the series) more effective.

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Post by KP_fan Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:58 am

VTR wrote:Excellent posts Mike giving good explanation for what we are all seeing.

KP_Fan - I don't care for your credentials. The Sky commentary team for example are ex-players who played at the highest level and they don't get everything right. The difference to you is they have the humility to admit when they are wrong. This is your problem: you do not debate, you just type the same thing over and over ad nauseum.

This is set to be the hottest, driest July since records began (in 1602), yet of course its all an ECB conspiracy to make Swann (a bowler who had injury concerns coming into the series) more effective.
 
 
 
it appears from what some of you guys are saying that the English pitch curators do not know how to grow or keep the grass on the pitch in these low 30s type of tempertures.
 
whereas in other parts of the world.....curators can keep the grass on in even 40 deg temperatures
 
Lack of skill in keeping the grass on in 30 degrees on English test match venues ??Shocked 
 
OK if that if what you say.
 
In my view.....English see it to their advantage( especially for Swann and Anderson) to have these dry scruffy Indian type pitches.
But unfortunately do not have the forthrightedness in accepting that they are deliberately using the home advantage...in customizing the ptiches to their taste.
 
PS* rest of the comments KP_F you are like this and that are not relevant to the context of discussion so ignored
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:06 am

Yeah cos I'm sure Anderson would prefer to be bowling on a scruffy Indian type pitch to a green, seaming swinging wicket...Rolling Eyes 
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Post by mystiroakey Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:07 am

This is a pointless argument.

1. Every team will utilise home advantage. Or try. No one shouts from the roof top about doing it.....

2. Its unexpectedly hot. Yet its always hot in oz...

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Post by GSC Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:10 am

I heard England are using a new type of stumps this summer to.boot. The unfairness
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Post by KP_fan Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:11 am

Olly wrote:Yeah cos I'm sure Anderson would prefer to be bowling on a scruffy Indian type pitch to a green, seaming swinging wicket...Rolling Eyes 
¨

yes off course...Anderson is about the only one who has been able to extract reverse swing with control at good speed from the dry scruffy pitches.

If the pitches are green and grassy...every will seamer will become potent and Swann less so....so England will lose the advntage
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Post by VTR Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:11 am

We're wasting our breath here people. Of course the keyboard warrior who lives about 500 miles away knows far more about the conditions than we do.


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Post by VTR Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:13 am

KP_fan wrote: 
PS* rest of the comments KP_F you are like this and that are not relevant to the context of discussion so ignored

Haha, just spotted this. The biggest wind-up merchant on here taking the moral high ground. Classic!

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Post by Duty281 Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:31 am

This is an even more interesting conspiracy than the one kp_fan "uncovered" about hawk-eye being fixed.

So the English pitches are being made like Indian pitches, but in an effort to hide it, the ECB have made near-enough every pitch in Europe exactly the same as well. Fascinating. Is there no depths that the ECB won't sink to?

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Post by mystiroakey Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:13 am

The ECB have a multi billion pound weather creator.. if aus get ahead they will send the rain in.

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Post by GSC Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:17 am

We've also insisted on a ball custom made for Swann

Seriously how much garbage does he get to post
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Post by VTR Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:36 am

GSC wrote:
Seriously how much garbage does he get to post

Loads. Unless England are in the process of beating India then nothing.

This has sunk even lower than him insisting the TB test would be heavily rain affected. I live all of 5 miles from the ground but he wasn't having it from me that it wouldn't be. Who turned out to be right? Oh yes it was me.

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Post by GSC Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:42 am

Nottinghams famous for its monsoons during a heatwave
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Post by Cowshot Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:43 am

Half this page is talking about him. Don't you see how you are stroking his...ego?

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Post by VTR Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:49 am

True cowshot, time to move on.

Anyone on here going to this Test? I will be there tomorrow. Have a horrible feeling I'm going to see a day of Aussie batting - but I am a cynic still mentally scarred by the 90's!

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Post by Cowshot Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:57 am

No, but I'll be listening to most of it. Smile

Australia can turn this series around if anyone can. They HAVE underperformed badly, they CAN do a lot better. Fortunately so can we. :)I don't consider it game over yet.

chuckle. Like you too scarred to be able to take this for granted. The old wounds still aches when McGrath or Warnie show up...Smile

Oh yes: Just watched an interview with Jimmy on the BBC site. Think it's safe3 to say he's positively drooling in anticipation. Smile


Last edited by Cowshot on Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by VTR Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:01 pm

Haha, McGrath has been pretty good on TMS but I still can't forgive him for the years of pain. I wonder if Atherton ever has a listen, imagine what is must be like for him!

We should get the full 5 days in so I expect a result. Would be so nice if it was 3-0 and we can relax for the rest of the series

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Post by Cowshot Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:09 pm

Not so sure about the five days - it's Manchester and the forecasts I've seen suggest more changeable conditions. Still think we should get enough play though. Showers more than days out...

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Post by VTR Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:34 pm

Yeah that's what I meant though I didn't put it very well i.e. 450 overs across the 5 days is looking possible with some interruptions.

I'm also assuming drainage has been improved with the ground redevelopment to allow play to get underway quickly - not sure about that one though.

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Post by KP_fan Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:36 pm

Atleast Captain Cook is honestly accepting it like it is...England is RAKING home advantage
instead of creating unbelievable Kock  and bull stories about how grass has stopped growing in England only during this ashes patch:laughing: 
 
 
Manchester: England captain Alastair Cook has defended the production of what Australia believe look like "burnt" patches on the pitch for the third Test, saying it was the host country's right to drum home their territorial advantage.

Cook said England, who included an additional spinner Monty Panesar in their 14-man squad, was as the host country well within its rights to have a wicket prepared that suited them.

"I think that's what home advantage is," he said. "It's very hard to actually just order a wicket. You can ask for a wicket which I think to try and suit your style of play.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/your-point-is-cook-defends-home-ground-advantage-20130731-2qys2.html#ixzz2acchmUhp
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Post by Cowshot Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:41 pm

Well, they got something over 2 inches of rain in 24 hours there recently, so they'll need a damn big sponge...but you've got to hope they knew what they'd need.

I think England will go in unchanged for this. With the possible exception of KP though his calf appears to be improving. Hmm. What odds on an Aussie win?

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Post by GSC Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:49 pm

"I think that's what home advantage is," he said. "It's very hard to actually just order a wicket. You can ask for a wicket which I think to try and suit your style of play. But it's very difficult to get it absolutely right with the weather.
"We had a month's worth of rain in three hours the other day, so that obviously changes it a lot. You go to the subcontinent and you play against three spinners like we did in Mumbai, and that's what one of the challenges of cricket is."


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/your-point-is-cook-defends-home-ground-advantage-20130731-2qys2.html#ixzz2acg7GaW9

Disgusting effort from England. I'm sure they'll have asked for a pitch that will crumble on day 4/5, but not one that offers nothing to their seam attack. Weather has done most the damage.

While we're acting holier than thou, let us not forget the pitch India prepared for the final test over the summer, nor the Aussies trying to grow a lawn on their pitches last time we toured.
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Post by GSC Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:55 pm

Also is the home side not entitled to ask for a pitch that gives them the best chance of victory. Such is the challenge of touring.
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Post by VTR Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:59 pm

Ignore button employed after that last desperate effort.

So KP to play or not tomorrow? As there's no news yet is must be touch and go, would quite like to see Taylor get a run out if I am honest, I always like seeing how new players adapt to Test cricket.

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Post by GSC Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:00 pm

If KPs less than 100% whats the point. The series is 2-0 without him really making a contribution. Better to sit out than risk him for the return tour.
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