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KP Or King Viv

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ChequeredJersey
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Gerry SA
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Scarpia
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FerN
guildfordbat
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Post by Stella Tue 23 Jul 2013, 3:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

I am old enough to have seen the great Viv Richards and of course the great Kevin Pietersen. When watching, I see some similarities, like the ability to dominate, take on the best fast bowlers and of course their records.

Now, some say Viv was the best since Bradman, but imo, like Pietersen, he was a little inconsistent at times, 1976 apart, and also got out in a arrogant type fashion.

This may sound like a nonsense question to some, but for me, they are pretty equal. So, who is the best between these two great batsmen?
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Post by Stella Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:40 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Stella wrote:Never saw Barry bat, unfortunately. I did read that he often got bored once he made it to fifty, and would give his wicket away cheaply at times. Not sure if that's true?

From memory there were times when the match was rather meaningless when he may well decide to flash the bat a bit and give spectators some fun. However when it was important he would temper that and make big runs. Two centuries in just 4 tests (2 centuries in 5 World Series of Cricket "Tests" as well) and a highest first class score of 350 (scored against Lille amongst others) does show he could concentrate.

Heck at 40+ he even managed to score runs against the rebel West Indies XI.

I am convinced he would have been a massive star - had SA not been banned from cricket.

Shame him and Pollock couldn't prove it, but I'm sure they would have been long term success in test cricket.
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Post by guildfordbat Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:11 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:I don't believe Richards is given enough credit today for just how exciting and groundbreaking he was as a one day batsman. I forget the exact circumstances (Hoggy will almost certainly know) but I just about recall an ODI where England's Mike Hendrick bowled the final ball of the innings to him. Hendrick (not a great seamer but more than decent and no slouch) aimed the ball for well outside off stump. Richards contemptuosly walked across his wicket to beyond where the ball had pitched and hoisted it over the leg side for six. Far from unique in the modern era but highly innovative at the time.



I presume you're talking about the 1979 WC final Guildford.
Footage of that innings (including the 6 off Hendrick from the final ball), along with some other great Richards innings can be seen here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/sir-viv-richards-greatest-hits-753396

Yes, that's the one. Thanks, Hoggy.

A very good feature. I like Lizzy Ammon (aka 'Legside Lizzy'). She follows the English county scene well, particularly knowledgeable and often suitably probing about Surrey. Pleased that she draws attention - as I tried to in my earlier post - to Richards' domestic success for Somerset as well as on the international stage.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:15 pm

Yeah, current stars hardly ever play County matches.

I doubt we will see much more of Joe Root at Headingley or Scarbrough. Thank the gods for Alex Lees

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Post by Fists of Fury Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:30 pm

Didn't know you were a Twitter fiend, Guildford?

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:30 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Yeah, current stars hardly ever play County matches.

I doubt we will see much more of Joe Root at Headingley or Scarbrough. Thank the gods for Alex Lees

LondonTiger - yes, although unfortunately for Surrey, the Test trio of Root, Bairstow and Bresnan might have been freed by England to play in Yorks' final CC match of the season at the Oval in late September. A match Surrey may well have to win to avoid relegation.

Btw, totally agree with your comments about the brilliance of Barry Richards. I have yet to meet anyone (and I strongly doubt I ever will) who saw Barry Richards play and doubts him. We had a good debate on the 606v2 Cricket Hall of Fame section about him some time ago - from memory, he got in comfortably in the end but not without some questions along the way. Hope you and others will join future debates which'll probably start again when the English season ends.

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:31 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:Didn't know you were a Twitter fiend, Guildford?
Fists - just a stalker.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:39 pm

GB

Sadly, I am too young to remember Barry Richards playing career in any detail. As I recall re the HoF discussion, the only question that was really raised was whether what he was given the opportunity to achieve (because of circumstances outside his control) was sufficient to confirm the potential everyone agreed he had. Perhaps somewhat with 'benefit of the doubt', he got a yes from me on that score.

As for his near contemporary Graeme Pollock, I have the words of my Dad, who was fortunate enough to see him play in the flesh (living in Scarborough as a boy in the 60s helped, with the stars that turned up to the Scarborough Festival in those days) - reckoned GP was the best batsman he had ever seen. And that included having not only seen Sobers but actually played against him...

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 24 Jul 2013, 1:02 pm

Dummy - unfortunately, I can't bring any meaningful viewing of Graeme Pollock to the table. My viewing of him ''live'' was confined to the tv when he played for the Rest of the World against England in 1970 (a replacement series for South Africa, called off at the last minute due to the apartheid regime). However, his record and the views of trusted others who did see him convince me he was a true world great.

Very interested about your dad playing against Sobers. Please tell more ....

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Post by dummy_half Wed 24 Jul 2013, 1:16 pm

GB

Don't know the details (and my father is no longer with us to ask), but I assume it was at the Scarborough festival in the late 60s or early 70s. Probably wasn't a game that has any long term record, but an invitational team against a local club side.

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 24 Jul 2013, 1:45 pm

dummy_half wrote:GB

Don't know the details (and my father is no longer with us to ask), but I assume it was at the Scarborough festival in the late 60s or early 70s. Probably wasn't a game that has any long term record, but an invitational team against a local club side.
Dummy - still something to be very proud of, as I'm sure he was and you are. Thanks.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 31 Jul 2013, 4:55 pm

Though I'm too young to have been around when the likes of Barry Richards, Pollock, Viv, Malcolm Marshall, Lillee etc were playing, as a strange side effect of not having much cricket on terrestrial TV when I grew up I actually resorted to watching many old VT's of County cricket my grandad had from that era so ended up developing a huge admiration for many of those players. As such I'd actually have all of the guys mentioned above in my 'greatest ever first class XI', which often baffles people given my age!

1.Sutcliffe
2.B Richards
3.Bradman
4.Pollock
5.V Richards
6.Sobers
7.Knott (wk)
8.Marshall
9.Warne
10.Akram
11.Lillee

Obviously with this sort of side there are a few guys I'd be happy enough to swap for others but I'd back that side above to beat just about any challengers.

From those I watched old tapes of growing up I'm still yet to see batsmen I'd view as having quite the same destructive capabilities as Pollock and Viv did each time they batted, or the languid timing of Barry R. From the bowlers, Lillee and Marshall's coupling of express pace and swing looked terrifying on a grainy TV image so I don't want to know how the batsmen were feeling!

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Post by Stella Wed 31 Jul 2013, 5:16 pm

Nice team.
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Post by Scarpia Thu 01 Aug 2013, 6:15 am

Viv Richards wins it for me. Nothing to do with stats or comparative opposition. Just that when Richards came in to bat I expected him to make a high score. When KP comes in to bat I hope he'll get a high score but I don't expect him to do so.

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Post by Twitchey Thu 01 Aug 2013, 6:50 am

Viv was the leader of his team. Faced the quicks of his time with his cap on. KP is a genuine innovator. Viv every time for me though ...

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Post by Gerry SA Thu 01 Aug 2013, 10:50 am

Pietersen is no way near the level of IVA Richards.

Modern day flat pitches mask Pietersen's technical issues. Pietersen's a dreadful backfoot player.

Pulling off the front foot doesn't mean he's a good player of short pitch bowling.

Had Pietersen played in the 90s he wouldn't have averaged 30.

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Post by andyi Fri 02 Aug 2013, 11:50 am

Great topic and that post by GuilfordBat was fantastic.

Iv'e seen both and like the majority I think Viv was a class up from KP.

Anyone in doubt of the great mans talent and force of will, check out the famous 189!!
Part1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj2PCictIL8
Part2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnPboESH2r0

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Post by Stella Fri 02 Aug 2013, 11:52 am

That 189 was a fantastic innings. Although I will add, I was speaking of tests only. As a ODI batsmen there isn't much of a comparison.
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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 5:00 pm

Gerry SA wrote:Pietersen is no way near the level of IVA Richards.

Modern day flat pitches mask Pietersen's technical issues. Pietersen's a dreadful backfoot player.

Pulling off the front foot doesn't mean he's a good player of short pitch bowling.

Had Pietersen played in the 90s he wouldn't have averaged 30.

Nothing like utter supposition to make a thread complete...
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 7:34 pm

Would it be right to say though that Richards had more pressure on him as he was West indian and I imagine a very proud one..........and prized his wicket higher accordingly..

Whereas Pitersen is basically a mercenary If we are honest and can bat with the freedom of the fact if England lose it's not the end of the World to him..............

Playing for your Country carries pressures....

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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 7:40 pm

Does KP still think of himself as South African, not British?
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Post by mystiroakey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 7:44 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Would it be right to say though that Richards had more pressure on him as he was West indian and I imagine a very proud one..........and prized his wicket higher accordingly..

Whereas Pitersen is basically a mercenary If we are honest and can bat with the freedom of the fact if England lose it's not the end of the World to him..............

Playing for your Country carries pressures....

Thats a crazy stance lad.. and even if any off it carried weight. When the heat is on the best raise there game.. Therefore pressure can help the best

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 7:54 pm

It's not crazy at all lad........Lara said he would have turned down a million in the IPL to play for West Indies.....He loves his Country and doesn't want them to lose........

Pietersen is out why should he care and how many times has he been out trying to go to a hundred in style If he does care......Lad.

Have to remember Pietersen's first choice is S Africa.........Politics took him here...

Home is where the heart is.........Would Richards text another Country to tell them how to take West Indian wickets...No because west indies meant everything to him...

and so he batted with extra pressure.


Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 7:58 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : ..)

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 7:56 pm

You are not using logic mate. Pressure/love for the team doesnt make it harder for many players..Infact it makes them perform better more than not..

And I think its a bit off questioning KP's commitment!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:00 pm

Questioning his commitment...

Giving Africa tips on how he could get Brits out.........

If he was playing for America in a sport he wouldn't have played again....

Still you sold your Country out to Stanford so I mean what do you expect...How much Is England worth again ?? Can anybody buy you...


Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : .)

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:03 pm

look ok- question his commitment-I dont buy the fact he sent tips, but ok, there maybe some evidence of this..

but your argument is still illogical..

the best in the game shine at international test cricket and many on the whole have much better averages at that level than lower county/club levels.

Thats why sometimes many good county players with top averages dont make the grade yet others with lesser averages can. Its about having that head game for it..


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Post by mystiroakey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:04 pm

"
Still you sold your Country out to Stanford so I mean what do you expect...How much Is England worth again ?? Can anybody buy you..."

what the heck are you on about you crazy fruit.. Buy england if you think you can.. But you cant - so dream on..

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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:05 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Questioning his commitment...

Giving Africa tips on how he could get Brits out.........

If he was playing for America in a sport he wouldn't have played again....

Still you sold your Country out to Stanford so I mean what do you expect...How much Is England worth again ?? Can anybody buy you...

Pretty sure Straussnhimself and come out to say this isn't quite what happened...
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:06 pm

The best at international level do shine......However the added pressure of trying to win or save a game FOR YOUR COUNTRY.....can mean carrying a burden of responsibilty a Mercenary doesn't carry....

Pietersen is for himself...Team problems are of a secondary consideration as his texts showed..

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:07 pm

No the added pressure can make you better or worse or the same! that is fact. your argument doesnt add up, Its a non argument.

Go back to politics mate, spout your hate about England on there

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:08 pm

Guys a famous sportsman once said the art of winning is to play as If it means nothing....

Pietersen was half way there..

I'm sorry but i'm a proud American and I detest all this mercenary...Rusedski, Mo Farrah, 400m woman cheat whatever her name is, Lennox Lewis......British nonsense...

winning isn't everything...you guys should know that....

win or lose with BRITS !!!


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Post by mystiroakey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:11 pm

why are you commenting on England, every team does it in rugby cricket and football(we dont in football for some reason)

The fact is we are part of the international sporting set up. You are not. You are out in the cold.. So love USA all you want and support your teams in the world series!!

Very Happy 

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:13 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Guys a famous sportsman once said the art of winning is to play as If it means nothing....

Pietersen was half way there..

I'm sorry but i'm  a proud American and I detest all this mercenary...Rusedski, Mo Farrah, 400m woman cheat whatever her name is, Lennox Lewis......British nonsense...

winning isn't everything...you guys should know that....

win or lose with BRITS !!!


Has no-one ever represented America having been born elsewhere?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:14 pm

If you don't mind me asking why has everyone forgiven KP for giving Africa tips on how to get his own Country out.....

Are you that desperate over here.....

Wouldn't play for America again If he was representing us at sport.......In fact he'd probably have to go into hiding..

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:16 pm

you see what he fails to realise is that you are american when you go to america.

If you want to be a national you cant be a dual national. You have to go against your orignal nationailty and denounce it- So because of this strange set up Trussman is confussed and clearly thinks none of his players are from anywhere else!!

All it is is US propaganda. And makes him feel superior- when in fact he is just showing up his ignorance!!

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:17 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If you don't mind me asking why has everyone forgiven KP for giving Africa tips on how to get his own Country out.....

Are you that desperate over here.....

Wouldn't play for America again If he was representing us at sport.......In fact he'd probably have to go into hiding..

probally because he didnt.

England stated very clearly on record that is he was found out sending tips to a saffa he would never play for england again!!

so wether he did or not it wasnt proved and i suppose the law is simple. Innocent untill proven guilty

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:20 pm

Let's leave it Oakey....Just tiresome the way you Brits will pick any old Johnny foreigner for success.....in any sport....

Stanford was a disgrace...I mean come on he bought your COUNTRY...

But we'll agree to disagree....

I've said how I feel...and I feel good...Cool Cool 


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Post by Mike Selig Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:21 pm

You do know there's such a thing as immigration Truss?

Farrah has lived in the UK since he is 8... It's not all about where you're born.

In my experience playing for your national team makes you feel from that country, regardless of where you're born.

As for forgiving KP - maybe because the Brits accept that people can make mistakes and genuinely regret them. Unlike in the US where it's shoot first and ask questions later. Your post sums up entirely the difference in attitude between the two places, and I know which one I prefer.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:22 pm


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/beijing/2008-07-18-immigrants_N.htm


http://mobile.nationaljournal.com/thenextamerica/culture/more-than-40-u-s-olympians-are-foreign-born-20120727

Just sayin'
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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:23 pm

Also what you have said about Mo Farrah is an absolute disgrace and I am now blocking you as you are either too ignorant to endure or a WUM
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Post by mystiroakey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:29 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Let's leave it Oakey....Just tiresome the way you Brits will pick any old Johnny foreigner for success.....in any sport....

Stanford was a disgrace...I mean come on he bought your COUNTRY...

But we'll agree to disagree....

I've said how I feel...and I feel good...Cool Cool 


Well if you only brought up certain players(like KP for instance- who offcourse is still a dual national) and not Mo farrah(here since a kid) as mike pointed then I could at least partially understand your stance..

My stance is that you should play for the system that brought up and birth is immaterial!

but the fact is we all do it in cricket and rugby and its the way it is! so i cant complain to hard- unless we all stuck to my soloution


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Post by Mike Selig Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:31 pm

Speaking of mercenaries, anyone mention Bernard Lagat yet?

Stones and glass houses you know...

For me, far more important than where someone is born is where they grew up and learned their trade.


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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:32 pm

You meant more right?
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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:33 pm

At some point all countries are built on Immigration and I just can't understand people's apparent fear of it. It shows a total lack of understanding about nationality
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Post by Mike Selig Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:35 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Just tiresome the way you Brits will pick any old Johnny foreigner for success.....in any sport....

Not as tiresome as you coming on a perfectly good thread about something you clearly don't understand or have any interest in purely to do a bit of winding up and spewing hateful, xenophobic, intolerant rubbish.

Congratulations, you've got your rise, now go and get off on it for all that I care.

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Post by Mike Selig Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:35 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:You meant more right?

Correct, duly edited, thanks.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 03 Aug 2013, 9:38 am

The name of Richards invokes a sense of charm and aura because he is from a bygone era.
Human mind romanticizes and makes larger than life....what they haven't seen or seen in distant past.

KP is contemporary....and pays the price of being too close to a lot of us and is in current time.

as dust settles and both KP and Viv become legends of past posterity will judge them equally.

In my view Viv was never tested against the most fearsome bowling attack of his time in internationals i.e Windies pace battery...not his fault...but counts.

and Sir Viv was in a superstrong team.

On the contrary KP scored his runs against the top pace and spin attacks of his time...and playing in a team that grew from average to strong unlike Viv's presence in a super imposing team most of the time.
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Post by mystiroakey Sat 03 Aug 2013, 11:13 am

Good point regarding the bowling- The WI were on another level to the rest!


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Post by Duty281 Sat 03 Aug 2013, 11:37 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Let's leave it Oakey....Just tiresome the way you Brits will pick any old Johnny foreigner for success.....in any sport....

Stanford was a disgrace...I mean come on he bought your COUNTRY...

But we'll agree to disagree....

I've said how I feel...and I feel good...Cool Cool 


Nothing cheers me up more than seeing another person jealous of England/Britain!

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Post by kingraf Sat 03 Aug 2013, 3:28 pm

When did Truss become a cricketing guru?
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Post by ChequeredJersey Sat 03 Aug 2013, 5:11 pm

On this evidence, never
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