Really Old Clubs - Could you use them

Saw a piece about a company that runs events at golf clubs, and they bring 50 set's of old clubs, Mashie's, niblicks etc. They also spend time putting the course back into something like its original layout. Seemed to be a bit of good fun had by all.

I've only tried to hit one of these clubs once, and really struggled, as i thinned a couple of balls and had some serious vibrations down my arm. The mashie 5 iron I used was more like a wedge or 9-iron. Has anyone else had a go and how did they get on. I would also hazard a guess that the likes of Bobby Jones et al could well have been better players than today's pro's

no... but whats the company? Got a link?

(incidentally I think Mac might have just messed his y-fronts over this thread)

LondonJonnyO wrote:no... but whats the company? Got a link?

(incidentally I think Mac might have just messed his y-fronts over this thread)

LJ, I think it was something like 'Hickory Golf' and had everyone dressed up like Payne Stewarts grandparents

I think golf was played very differently in ye olde days. The swings back then don't really resemble a modern swing, there was a lot more 'manipulating' of the ball than there is today.

Were they more skilled? I don't know but they certainly had different skills. You frequently come across stories of people shooting scores in the low 70's or even in the 60's way back in time, quite some achievement when you consider the inconsistencies in the balls and shafts, the condition of the greens back then etc etc.

D4S never mind technology of today, I can't get my head around the old course technolgy. The greens will have been as bad if not worse than our winter greens today. They must have had big holes thats all i can say

I remember reading in an old golf magazine that swings then (20's to 50's) were different and had a more wristy flick than nowadays. The modern swing was seen as more "American" and suited the bigger ball played there then but not over here. Apparently Henry Cotton was an example of the older wristy british swing He used a cupped wrist at the top of the backswing and then manipulated the face square by sheer coordination.

Doc wrote:D4S never mind technology of today, I can't get my head around the old course technolgy. The greens will have been as bad if not worse than our winter greens today. They must have had big holes thats all i can say

They have no excuses for poor surfaces. They still use traditional methods in some holiday destinations and it is clear to me that all that is needed for a perfect surface is a knackered old portuguese biddy and a pair of scissors.

I think I may know this company you are talking about (or at least one like them). If it's who I think it is then there is a representative of that company on this forum (though they read rather than post). I'll leave it to them to introduce themselves if they wish to, but this post may just get them contributing

My dad used to have some old hickories in the garage, which must have come from his dad/grandfather or something. They may well have been the first clubs I hit. I would love to enter a hickory event such as the one held at mussleburgh.

For a while now I have been looking to assemble a set of hickories and try to get as old a ball as I can. Although not perfect I am trying to collect balls from the 60's as they are easier to come by, in fact i sometimes find them on the course. You can get replica gutties and old haskells but they are a bit pricey.

The main issue is the price of hickories these days. I have yet to put my set together because the things are so damn expensive. I tend to look around antique shops or local auctions. Most of the single clubs will set you back at least £50. Ideally i want some beaten up ones so that they are cheaper and I would like to have a bash at some minor restorations.

If anyone know a source of cheap hickories let me know.

LondonJonnyO wrote:no... but whats the company? Got a link?

I was at Silloth last year when the "British Golf Collectors Society" http://www.golfcollectors.co.uk/ had their "Scotland v England Hick'y Match", fascinating to watch. It was also mentioned in the Silloth Newsletter http://www.sillothgolfclub.co.uk/SillothGolfClub/media/Newsletters/Silloth-Golf-Club-Newsletter-Sept-2010-Issue-60.pdf

I still have my old persimmon headed driver and 3 wood, steel shafted, and while I can't get the distance of a modern wood with either I am much staighter and consistent with them.

LondonJonnyO wrote:

Doc wrote:D4S never mind technology of today, I can't get my head around the old course technolgy. The greens will have been as bad if not worse than our winter greens today. They must have had big holes thats all i can say

They have no excuses for poor surfaces. They still use traditional methods in some holiday destinations and it is clear to me that all that is needed for a perfect surface is a knackered old portuguese biddy and a pair of scissors.

Actually, unless you go way back, the greens were probably better than many today. They were all hand prepared and mown by an army of greenkeepers using 12 blade hand mowers rather than the labour saving contraptions of today and they were also played less as well.

I first started playing golf with hickory shafted clubs and the swing used, had to be much smoother with less of a divot taken unless you wanted to be forever checking your shaft (easy tiger). There was a much smaller sweet spot and huge variations in loft and lie. The balls were little more than a soft plastic lump wrapped in rubber bands and covered by a material (normally but not exclusively balata) that would cut open at the soonest possibility. There was little chance of any backspin on the ball and most greens were reached by chip and run unless you needed a lot of height and a soft landing, when everyone would do a Lefty flop way before he was even born

I played at the old 9 hole Musselburgh course around 5 years ago and you could hire hickorys for your round. You got a 3 wood, long iron, mid iron, wedge and putter (mashie..etc) and 3 old style balls that you had to use as new ones would ruin the clubs. Actually cost more for the clubs than the 9 holes but well worth the go, really enjoyed the wedge in particular. Thing I found the hardest (other than clearing the long grass of the racetrack on the 4th I think) was long putting as the head was a lump of lead and stayed open if you putted traditionally, the hickory was so flexible.
Pleased to shoot +6 for 9 holes and would definitely say to give it a go to anyone in the area.

I've not hit a iron "hickory", but I drove in with a hickory shafted driver (cica 1776) in '98. Did a bit of practice before hand and had to shorten my swing a bit. It was very heavy in the head, but I knocked a modern ball about 220 straightish. Would love to play a few holes with a hickory set.

you can play hickory golf just a few minutes from where i live - http://www.kingarrock.com/index.html

if the boys up for the tassie fancy, it might be a bit of fun!

graeme wrote:you can play hickory golf just a few minutes from where i live - http://www.kingarrock.com/index.html

if the boys up for the tassie fancy, it might be a bit of fun!

Could be good for a laugh!

As a matter of interest, how many clubs made up a full set of hickories?

I don't think there was ever a standard set of clubs in those days. Remember up to the 1930s there was no limit to the number of clubs you could carry. Some players routinely carried 50 or 60 clubs. Walter Hagen's caddie collapsed at at Open in the 1920s because he was carrying a bag with more than 50 clubs, as well as balls and umbrellas and all the rest of the stuff a pro needs. People in the crowd had to drag the bag over the last couple of holes. Also makers made clubs according to their own ideas, rather than an industry norm. The most common names, and their rough equivalents were -

Cleek - 2 Iron

Driving Iron - 3 Iron

Long iron - 4 Iron

Mid Iron, Jigger, Sammy - 5 Iron

Mashie - 6 Iron

Spade Mashie, Jigger, Deep Faced Mashie - 7 Iron

Mashie Niblick - 8 Iron

Lofting Iron, Rutting Iron / Track Iron, Deep Faced Mashie Niblick - 9 Iron

Niblick, Lofting Iron - Wedge

Jumbo Niblick - Gap Wedge

Giant Niblick, Blaster, Sand Niblick - Sand Iron

Cheers George, I never realised there were so many, I thought maybe about 7 or 8 would have been the norm.

50 Clubs? What possible use could that many different clubs be? Considering regulation suggests that you should use your putter 36 times, that only leaves a similar number of shots, so 50 clubs is far too many.

Let's assume you took out 4 drivers (high and low, fade and draw bias), 8 fairway woods, 5 wedges, 1 to 9 irons, and strong versions of 1 to 9 irons, that's still only 35 clubs, and is already stupidly too high.

If you look at pictures in the period 1850-1900 you see that the players did on some occasions not even use a bag. So I guess you played with as many clubs as you could be bothered to carry.

Smithers,

I don't know all the clubs old Walter had in his bag I'm afraid.

There was an exhibition match at Moor Park in 1928 where he played Archie Compston. He lost 18&17 I do believe, carrying 12 putters in his bag, and 6 chippers. He presented them all to people at the club after he'd lost because he putted so badly. Shortly after that he won the Open at Sandwich, so getting rid of all those rubbishy old putters must have worked!

The woods also had names:

Haven't bothered to check them, but I remember

3 wood was a brassie
4 wood was a spoon

I think!

Naaaaaa,

2 wood was a brassie, 3 wood was a spoon, 4 woods didn't exist.

I believe that the reason a limit was put on the number of clubs was to save the caddies. No-one carried their own clubs, it was the poor caddies that had a bundle (tied up with what looks like a belt) under each arm. Many golfers would have at least two putters. It was believed that a metal head would cling to the bumpy ground better on long putts and a wooden headed one was better from close in (or vice versa)

I think a spoon is a slightly strong three wood, but yes it is definitely a three wood.

Does anyone else think that putting less clubs in the bag can make it more fun by introducing the need for more creativity. For example I often don't carry my 60 degree wedge.

George1507 wrote:Naaaaaa,

2 wood was a brassie, 3 wood was a spoon, 4 woods didn't exist.

I accept what you say about the 2 & 3 wood. But your statement about the 4 wood is pure nonsense. Not only did 4 woods exist, but I used to have one in a full set of Ben Sayers persimmon headed brass soled woods.

A spoon was called a spoon because it had a slightly curved face, intended to try and eradicate hitting the ball off either the toe or the heel.

as a junior i used to play limited club competitions all over the place (particularly in scotland for some reason). we went on hols to cullen in the north of scotland last year and i was entered, by my uncle, in the open championship. i'd only brought a half bag so we could accomodate all the kids stuff in the car but it was great fun trying to work the ball with just half the clubs.

it's even more fun with less but then playing links golf you get used to trying to create all sorts of shots in a 5 or 6 club wind :-)

Could I use old equipment I very much doubt it, but then I doubt many golfers of this era could use them either, even most pro's I doubt could hit a hickory shaft the only swing that springs to mind that I can think would adapt relatively to the hickory would be the late Payne Stewarts.

but like Graeme have played many times with half set, each club i've been a member at runs an annual 5 club comp where you are only allowed to carry 5 clubs including the putter, club selection pre round is essential, and I never carry a driver, always a 3 wood for long holes as you can use off the deck. But the iron choice is the tough one because once you have the 3wood and putter that leaves just 3 irons to choose!

I have a coaching video of Tony Jacklin filmed on the Isle of Man and he hit a modern (at that time) 5 iron (onto the green) followed by a hickory shafted mashie which he holed! Not that that proves he could play a whole round with hickories.

If anybody could, Jacko could. He was without a shadow of a doubt the sweetest striker of a golf ball I have ever seen close up.

Most of the hickory shafted irons used were very thin blades - some people even took to sharpening the leading edge. At the time, the golf swing was a sweeping motion, with a minimal divot taken, normally no more than a little scrape, hence the sharpened edge.

oldshanker

Of late I have been taking very little divot, I wondering if subconsciously I have been developing the swing needed to use hickory's?

Mac

With your interest in old clubs, you may well be looking at striking the ball more 'gently'. I can't remember ever using a punched shot with my hickory clubs - apart from the one time when I snapped the shaft of my 8 iron.

In fact, thinking back, the first junior comp I played in, I would have been no more than 8-9 years old. My 'set' comprised:- a persimmon headed 3 wood with an extra whippy steel shaft, a compromised set of womens hickory shafted blades 3, 4, 5 had been cut down years before, 6, 7, 8 had a snapped shaft and a putter, can't remember which one, there have been so many!!

After that, my clubs were in the main hand-me-downs, with the first one being a set of Ben Sayers, the irons were steel shafted but had a plastic coating on them and for the first time I had a wedge. Up until then, if I landed in any bunker that was more than about 1ft deep, I was totally stuffed and normally had to play out sideways, because the most lofted club I had was a 7 iron.

Oldshanker,

4 woods are a 1960s invention in the main.

I don't think anyone had made a 4 wood in the 1920s, although there may have been spoons with more loft, like a 4 wood has.

That's the thing isn't it George - there wasn't a 2 wood or a 3 wood either in the 20's and the driver was called a play wood. So in reality we are both right and wrong.

I think numbered woods came in in the 40's although the 4 wood may have been a special order. Certainly my Dad had a full numbered set in the 50's, which was passed down to me in the 60's. Dad was a club pro in Kent in the 30's, and he used the old names of the clubs right until the day he died.

I played with a hickory spoon when I was about 9, along with a 2-9 Joyce Wetherhead set of metal Irons.

I think some of the old guys have forgot about a baffie.

I have about a dozen hickories in my collection. Pride of place is a driver and spoon circa 1860s both in beautiful untouched condition, they were made by a relative. I also have a Ben Sayers Snr putter from the same period.

OS.... I have a few 1950s clubs with my uncles [2] names stamps on, nice things to hand on.

Doon - that is a fabulous thing to be able to do. I hope whoever gets them appreciates them.

I wish I could have kept the Peter Thomson driver my Dad used in mint condition (easy thing to say after the fact). It was a thing of beauty - the first highly laquered black head I had seen with a red insert and ivory? pegs and a very steep face, probably about 6-7 degrees.

Have you seen these Mac?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Old-Various-Mens-HICKORY-Wood-Shaft-Golf-Irons-/120723863860?pt=UK_SportsLeisure_Golf_GolfClubs_JN&hash=item1c1bb3f934