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The best cricketer in the world today?

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Post by kingraf Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

In the past I have made my feelings regarding Jacques Kallis being the greatest cricketer in the history of cricket known. But this isnt about that, its about the best cricketer playing today. In essence the best cricketer on current (2011- present) form. I love Kallis, but he doesnt have this title. Did a bit of searching, and I think I have a decent short-list.

Hashim Amla: Since 2011, he has played 20 Tests, scoring 1949 runs, with seven centuries at an average of 64 with a top score of 311*. Four of those centuries were scored last year during his Golden Summer, where he scored 859 runs in six
tests at an average of 85.9. A stat-line made all the more impressive by the fact that all six Tests were away from home.

Dale Steyn - Since 2011, he has played 20 Test as well, Taking 100 wickets, at an average of 21.65. Also taken six five wicket-hauls in this time-line.

James Anderson - Since 2011 He has played 30 Tests, taking 119 wickets, at 27.26, with five fifers

Alastair Cook - Played 32 Tests in the timeline, scoring 2801 runs, at an average of 51.87, with ten Test Centuries, and a top score of 294

Michael Clarke - In the period, he played 28 tests scored 2903 runs, at an average of 64.51, with a top score of 329*. He also took nine wickets at 33.66, with one Michelle, as the Aussies call it (Pheiffer/Fifer).

Saeed Ajmal - The standout bowler, having taken 100 wickets in seventeen matches, at an average of
23.60, with six five-wicket hauls.

For me its a close call. I think I would go for Ajmal, with Clarke being the most valuable, which isnt the same thing.
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Post by Diggers Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:24 pm

Oops.

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Post by The Terror of Tylorstown Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:41 pm

I think it's a fair assessment in a 5 test series to look at a players runs scored in two ways and Clarke currently is a good example. He may well have an average of 50 this series but that is solely down to his 187 so it's fair to say he's had a pretty poor series because he has consistently got out for not a lot.

In the 5th test someone could hit a triple century and end up with a better average than Ian Bell but in no shape or form does that mean he's had a better series, one big scored doesn't make a good series just like one good spell with the ball doesn't mean the same either.

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Post by The Terror of Tylorstown Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:44 pm

For the record before this series I would have had Cook as the premier batsmen of the past couple of years regardless of Amlas average during the same period. Scoring 300 in an innings sounds impressive but in the grand scheme of things if a simple 100 wins you a game then they ultimately mean the same thing.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:46 pm

Best cricketer in the world today?

WHY WHO ELSE BUT TRUNDLER TIMMY BRESNAN!!
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Post by Gerry SA Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 pm

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:For the record before this series I would have had Cook as the premier batsmen of the past couple of years regardless of Amlas average during the same period. Scoring 300 in an innings sounds impressive but in the grand scheme of things if a simple 100 wins you a game then they ultimately mean the same thing.
Total rubbish as per usual.

From 1st January 2010 Amla vs Cook

Amla

Matches: 31

Runs: 3198

Average: 69.52

Hundreds: 12

Fifties: 13

Ducks: 0

Cook

Matches: 46

Runs: 4088

Average: 53.78

Hundreds: 15

Fifties: 12

Ducks: 3

So Amla averages more and scores 100s more frequently.

Cook's average is boosted by flogging Bangladesh around as well.

During that period Amla averaged 490 in India and 120 in England. Over 40 everywhere else apart from the West Indies(20)

Cook isn't half as good as Amla.

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Post by trebellbobaggins Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:11 am

isn't half as good. total rubbish indeed.

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Post by msp83 Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:48 am

Well, interesting discussion.
First of all, if you are looking at the best cricketer on recent form, you have to go beyond tests or restrict the original to best test cricketer. If we go the former root, I would say the likes of Virat Kohli and Mahendra Singh Dhoni too should be considered.
There are a few things going for Kohli. He has had a decent time in tests, scoring hundreds against Australia, England and New Zealand. He has remained an absolute master in ODIs and has been India's best bet in T-20Is as well.
As for Dhoni, his test record as a wicketkeeper batsman is not great but it is above average, he has been the best all-round ODI batsman in the last 5 years, and he has a decent T-20I record although it could be argued that that is in fact underwhelming by his standards. But what is going for Dhoni is that in the given period, he has led India to a World Cup win, a Champion's Trophy win and a whitewash win against Australia in a test series. Of course the down side is the 8-0 scoreline. But what has to be seen is that as the team has aged, Dhoni, after remaining so stubborn, with the help of a new selection panel, has initiated the revival of the side, and his captaincy style has also changed according to the changing circumstances.

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Post by msp83 Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:56 am

Now for Kevin Pietersen vs Michael Clarke. Any day every day, I would take KP. He is a very special player. Clarke is a mighty fine player, and he has had an absolutely brilliant last couple of years, particularly at home where he has become an unstoppable force. But just look at 3 knocks that Pietersen played within this period. The 151 against Sri Lanka, the 186 against India, and the 149 against South Africa. It is not just about the strike rate. Virender Sehwag, Chris Gayle, David Warner, they all can smash it around even in test matches. But KP's knocks where certainly a cut above the rest, those who have watched can feel it. The way he scored all those runs in Sri Lanka on a an absolutely slow pitch where no other player could play strokes with half the conviction and effect that Pietersen managed. The way he took the game away from the Indians and beat the Indians with their own stick, and the way he ripped Dale Steyn apart last year. Who else can do that to Steyn in the world? The only other batsman who can do that to Steyn plays for his side, and that is AB de Villiers!. AB himself should be part of the list we are considering.

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Post by msp83 Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:58 am

AB has been class in all formats during the period under consideration, and he is a cricketer with that extra factor about him. Besides, he has Dhoni like responsibilities in ODIS, and keeping responsibilities in test matches.

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Post by msp83 Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:58 am

So all that I am doing as of now is adding Dhoni, Kohli and de Villiers to the list that we have to consider.

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Post by VTR Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:45 am

Can't pick one as I find it hard to compare batsmen bowlers. So a bit of a cop out but going with:
 
Batting: Amla - excellent in Tests and ODIs
Fast Bowling: Broady! Only joking, Steyn of course - lethal on any surface
Spin Bowling: Swann just edges out Ajmal given that he plays a lot more. I think Ajmal is probably better but needs more Tests to judge that (not his fault of course)
W/K: Dhoni - good in Tests but outstanding in ODIs and leads his teams to victories in the ODIs that actually matter

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Post by ShankyCricket Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:10 am

msp83 wrote:Now for Kevin Pietersen vs Michael Clarke. Any day every day, I would take KP. He is a very special player. Clarke is a mighty fine player, and he has had an absolutely brilliant last couple of years, particularly at home where he has become an unstoppable force. But just look at 3 knocks that Pietersen played within this period. The 151 against Sri Lanka, the 186 against India, and the 149 against South Africa. It is not just about the strike rate. Virender Sehwag, Chris Gayle, David Warner, they all can smash it around even in test matches. But KP's knocks where certainly a cut above the rest, those who have watched can feel it. The way he scored all those runs in Sri Lanka  on a an absolutely slow pitch where no other player could play strokes with half the conviction and effect that Pietersen managed. The way he took the game away from the Indians and beat the Indians with their own stick, and the way he ripped Dale Steyn apart last year. Who else can do that to Steyn in the world? The only other batsman who can do that to Steyn plays for his side, and that is AB de Villiers!. AB himself should be part of the list we are considering.
Yes, KP over Pup any day. Although I'd have Amla over KP for sheer consistency in all conditions. Clarke is a hometown bully.

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Post by Stella Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:38 am

Clarke a hometown bully Rolling Eyes 

Scored one of the best tons of the decade in South Africa, 187 in the third test here, runs in India, and runs in England in 2009 against our very good attack. He's a better player of spin than Pietersen as well. Not much in it.
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Post by amanuensis Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:58 am

Pietersen? Some wonderful innings, but far too much tripe alongside them.

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Post by sirfredperry Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:01 pm

Of those in the Ashes series, Clarke and Pietersen are among the top batsmen in the world and Anderson and Swann are among the best bowlers.
  Interesting that KP, who is one of the few batsman likely to win a Test with two/three hours of brilliance, has actually played low-key but crucial innings in the current series.
  His 60-odd at Nottingham when England were two down and still behind was vital, as was his 100 at Manchester and his partnership with Bell at Durham.


Last edited by sirfredperry on Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Post by KP_fan Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:24 pm

sirfredperry wrote:Of those in the Ashes series, Clarke and Pietersen are among the top batsmen in the world and Anderson and Swann are among the best bowlers.
  Interesting that KP, who is one of the few batsman likely to win a Test with two/three hours of brilliance, has actually played low-key but crucial innings in the current series.
  His 60-odd at Nottingham when England were two down and still behind was vital, as was his 100 at Manchester and his partnership with Bell at Durham.
His very presence is Big morale booster for the English side.
the few occasionas that he has not played either due to politics of injury...Eng has either lost or hung on for close draws.
Between Botham and KP there has been not a single charismatic BOX Office star playing for England....perhaps half a star in Flintoff in between

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Post by Duty281 Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:26 pm

KP_fan wrote:
sirfredperry wrote:Of those in the Ashes series, Clarke and Pietersen are among the top batsmen in the world and Anderson and Swann are among the best bowlers.
  Interesting that KP, who is one of the few batsman likely to win a Test with two/three hours of brilliance, has actually played low-key but crucial innings in the current series.
  His 60-odd at Nottingham when England were two down and still behind was vital, as was his 100 at Manchester and his partnership with Bell at Durham.
His very presence is  Big morale booster for the English side.
the few occasionas that he has not played either due to politics of injury...Eng has either lost or hung on for close draws.
Between Botham and KP there has been not a single charismatic BOX Office star playing for England....perhaps half a star in Flintoff in between

Apart from the 2009 Ashes you mean?

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Post by msp83 Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:57 pm

Fredye Flintoff was an absolute star during his day, he could lift not only his side, but even the spectators and even those who follow the game on TV or even reading through text commentary. He was such a force of nature. KP and Fredye together dominating, that would have been some game!!.

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Post by kingraf Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:26 pm

to answer your question "who else can do that (dismantle Steyn), the answer is a very obvious Michael Clarke. He scored a near run-a-ball double hundred vs SA Msp. He also scored an even better 151 vs South Africa in Newlands, on a pitch on which 20 would be considered a decent output.
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Post by msp83 Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:14 pm

kingraf wrote:to answer your question "who else can do that (dismantle Steyn), the answer is a very obvious Michael Clarke. He scored a near run-a-ball double hundred vs SA Msp. He also scored an even better 151 vs South Africa in Newlands, on a pitch on which 20 would be considered a decent output.
High quality batsmen have successfully managed to stay in control of Steyn from time to time while he managed to get the better of the best of time equally well. Sachin Tendulkar's 146 during India's previous tour was an absolute masterclass and the battle between Tendulkar and Steyn itself was so fascinating. But it was the battle of 2 outstanding masters who both where on top of their games. Clarke's knocks were also outstanding. But what separated KP's innings was that Steyn wasn't an equal partner, he just didn't have any idea as to what hit him. I haven't seen Dale Steyn so helpless and slapped down like that. Pietersen was treating him with absolute disdain and making it look ridiculously easy as if he was having a bit of a thrash about with some school kid.

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Post by kingraf Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:43 pm

Im going to assume you didnt watch the Clarke innings now. The two are incomparable. Pietersen bullied Steyn on a pitch which saw South Africa score 419 first innings, and England scored 425 in reply. In comparison, in Newlands Saw Aus score 284 (151 of which were Clarke's) which got a reply of 96, which got a reply of 47.... And day one was the toughest day to bat. Like Clarke's Double hundred, this knock too was at nearly a run-a-ball (151 off 176 on a pitch were the next top scorer in the innings scored 44 off 101). So Clarke's ton was on a) a (much) tougher pitch. b) against a better (on the day) Steyn, c) faster (Pietersen -149 off 214) and d) in more trying circumstances (Clarke came in 40/3, vs Pietersens relatively comfy 85/2).

Only way you can see Pietersens knock as better by any definition of the word is when you start trying to list intangibles that cant be defined, and thus can be definitively proven wrong.
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Post by msp83 Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:59 pm

kingraf wrote:Im going to assume you didnt watch the Clarke innings now. The two are incomparable. Pietersen bullied Steyn on a pitch which saw South Africa score 419 first innings, and England scored 425 in reply. In comparison, in Newlands Saw Aus score 284 (151 of which were Clarke's) which got a reply of 96, which got a reply of 47.... And day one was the toughest day to bat. Like Clarke's Double hundred, this knock too was at nearly a run-a-ball (151 off 176 on a pitch were the next top scorer in the innings scored 44 off 101). So Clarke's ton was on a) a (much) tougher pitch. b) against a better (on the day) Steyn,  c) faster (Pietersen -149 off 214) and d) in more trying circumstances (Clarke came in 40/3, vs Pietersens relatively comfy 85/2).

Only way you can see Pietersens knock as better by any definition of the word is when you start trying to list intangibles that cant be defined, and thus can be definitively proven wrong.
I did watch Sachin's Clarke's and Pietersen's knocks I mentioned above. I rate all of them as absolutely high class performances. But I place Pietersen's knock in a different range to the 2 other fabulous knocks.
I am sure you know that cricket and assessments of cricketing performances are not just about stats The intangibles also matter. But there could be subjective differences there and on this particular point, think we have to agree to disagree.

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Post by kingraf Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:32 pm

It wasnt just the Stats, I just dont understand how you can rate A knock on a relatively flat pitch pitch on a Sunny day, coming in at a relatively secure position higher than an equivalent on a surface which was a green mamba, in overcast conditions, with the Cape Dr. doing his thing, in a position of very real peril. Like you said there are subjective differences. Re: KP's ton, I was never really worried about defeat, the pitch was pretty placid first four days. Petersen (Alviro) had already scored a ton. In contrast Clarkes came at nearly a run a ball, on a pitch which for the first five sessions, no one else seemed capable scoring on, even if you gave them a tree to bat with. And given what was to come day two, it started looking even more miraculous.

The Tendulkar inmings is a little different. That was a proper duel between two players at the absolute zenith of their powers. Comparing that with either of these two, is a bit like trying to convince me that The Slim Shady LP is a better album than X & Y, they are so different, Im happy to accept that they are two masterclasses, without looking to pick one, as thats absolute guesswork
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Post by Gerry SA Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:14 pm

Pietersen's 149 was in no way comparable with Michael Clarke's 151.

Clarke's innings was one of the best I've ever seen. Clarke took apart the best fast bowling on a green pitch.

Pietersen's was on a flat road.

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Post by kingraf Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:39 pm

While I wouldnt say Headingley was a road, in comparison to that Newlands deck it was a batting paradise. Clarke's knock (imo) sits in the annals of time as one of the greatest knocks ever. There was a point whe Smith had two men out on the hook, and Clarke like a surgeon bi-sected them, then then covers got packed, Clarke squeezed through them to. It was like watching Federer, if he ever became a cricketer. All things considered best knock I have seen in or against South Africa for many a year. Clarke's magnum opus, I dont think He will ever play a better innings, and neither does he, I suspect.
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Post by ShankyCricket Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:54 am

Stella wrote:Clarke a hometown bully Rolling Eyes 

Scored one of the best tons of the decade in South Africa, 187 in the third test here, runs in India, and runs in England in 2009 against our very good attack. He's a better player of spin than Pietersen as well. Not much in it.
Do check his record away from home Rolling Eyes 

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Post by Stella Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:22 am

ShankyCricket wrote:
Stella wrote:Clarke a hometown bully Rolling Eyes 

Scored one of the best tons of the decade in South Africa, 187 in the third test here, runs in India, and runs in England in 2009 against our very good attack. He's a better player of spin than Pietersen as well. Not much in it.
Do check his record away from home Rolling Eyes 
Averaging 42 away from does not say 'hometown bully' to me. I think you're being very unfair.
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Post by invisiblecoolers Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:51 pm

Clarke is a cry baby I am sorry I wouldn't have him in the list, Ajmal among this list and the name you comfortably forgot is MS Dhoni, as a captain his records were amazing in Oneday he re discovered his mojo in test as well, his one day average and match winning knocks are breath taking, the other name you completely forgot is V Kholi, even though his attitude sucks big time just by the performance he would win the title with ease, but Kholi is another Clarke in making, I would love them both suffer some failures to see the facial reactions, both players just don't have the guts to take failures.

I was a big fan of Steve Waugh Aussie team, coz they had the element to win from defeats, and even if they lose from winning position like the Eden Gardens test they took it so sportingly, unless the current Aussie team learn something out of that team the cricinfo article "the era of Aussie decline" will never change.

On stats the best cricketer is a close call between Ajmal, Dhoni and Kholi, but I will rule out Kholi in the same manner I rule Clarke out, so its either a tie between Dhoni and Ajmal or I might edge it out to Dhoni coz he is a 3 in 1 for the Indian team.thumbsup 


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