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5th Test - Oval, Weds 21st August

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 13 Aug 2013, 2:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

With England having won the series, I wonder what changes we will see to the teams.

England
The batting, barring Ian Bell, is misfiring. Too many times batsmen are getting in, but getting out for cameo scores. Prior is struggling a little with bat and gloves, but as the new boy and without a big innings, Jonny Bairstow is most at risk.
The wickets have been shared amongst the bowlers. Onions was unlucky to miss out at Chester-le-Street, but having now broken a finger is ruled out for two weeks. Monty's well publicised indiscretion will not endear him to the management and Steven Finn will probably be left to regain form and confidence with Middlesex. On his own ground, Chris Tremlett may get a run out, especially if they feel that Anderson or Broad need a rest.

all in all I suspect that changes are unlikely.


Australia
The good news is that they may have found an opening pair. The bad news is that the middle order is desperately fragile unless skipper Clarke scores runs. Khawaja and Smith are both batting at least two positions too high and unless he is able to bowl, Shane Watson looks a waste of a spot. Possible chances of recalls for Hughes or Cowan at 3 - and consideration has to be given to Faulkner lower down as an all-rounder.
Bowling has stood up well, but in another horses for course selection we may well see Starc replace Bird. Australia will be desperate for Harris to stay fit.




England have not played very well so far, especially the batters, yet are 3-0 up. Australia have shown they can compete but seem unable to win, even against a faltering team. If England can actually play well we could see a real thumping, but the money men at Ca will hope their team can sneak a win to create interest for the return series.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:02 pm

watson narrowly misses a hundred before lunch and that too coming from 1 drop....1 more over from Kerrigan might have done it Smile
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:03 pm

fantastic session for Australia, in particular for Shane Watson.

England with some thinking to do, though they need to remember Australia's potential to collapse from just about any position in the series so far. Anderson, Broad and Swann all bowled pretty well on a very flat surface. Woakes bowled OK-ish but too many bad balls. Kerrigan was a disaster.

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Post by Gerry SA Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:03 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
teassoc wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Hmm...Eng playing 5 bowlers...2 spinners...lost the toss....aus will bat first.

given the pitches in England......Toss makes a lot of diffrence
It does seem the toss is very important.  If I'm not mistaken England won all the tests at which they got the toss right and were only saved by rain in the one where they didn't.  So on that basis Australia to win.  
If memory serves correctly, the toss didn't matter too much in India.
The genius of KP was so big in Mumbai that it overrode the toss advantage
And Kolkata?
Out of time KP_fan. The answer was the genius of England's best batsman, Alastair Cook.

As for now, Kerrigan was pretty awful, and Woakes was below-average. Lots of time to improve though.
You fail to mention the 'genius' of Panesar bowling 40 overs in the first innings of the Test taking 4 wickets. Stopping India taking advantage of the toss

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Post by KP_fan Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:08 pm

You fail to mention the 'genius' of Panesar bowling 40 overs in the first innings of the Test taking 4 wickets. Stopping India taking advantage of the toss
yeah correct......that genius is out of the squad today by England's self inflicted choice
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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:08 pm

KP_fan wrote:watson narrowly misses a hundred before lunch and that too coming from 1 drop....1 more over from Kerrigan might have done it Smile
Kerrigan is a good bowler, nerves got the better of him on debut, it happens. You are just a smug **** sat behind a keyboard

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Post by alfie Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:09 pm

Duty281 wrote:Well I'm certainly not expecting much, or indeed anything, from England in this game. Mind you, avoiding defeat in this game will put England to second in the world - where they belong.
Well they will need to bat well. Because they will probably be chasing 500 again.

Mind you , on this pitch chasing 500 shouldn't be all that daunting. But I think Australia may score quicker than they did at Old Trafford , and there won't be much rain about.

I am a bit disappointed with these dry pitches. Nice for Swann , maybe , but I think Broad and Anderson would appreciate one with a bit more in it for them for a change. Of course you can't do much about the weather.

Would be a good time for Cook and Trott to come back to form with Big Hundreds.

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:10 pm

KP_fan wrote:
You fail to mention the 'genius' of Panesar bowling 40 overs in the first innings of the Test taking 4 wickets. Stopping India taking advantage of the toss
yeah correct......that genius is out of the squad today by England's self inflicted choice
Yes of course Andy Flower personally ordered him to pee on that bouncer. What planet are you on? Absolutely correct decision to get rid of Monty after what he did.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:12 pm

VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:watson narrowly misses a hundred before lunch and that too coming from 1 drop....1 more over from Kerrigan might have done it Smile
Kerrigan is a good bowler, nerves got the better of him on debut, it happens.

then how is he a god bowler :shock

You are just a smug **** sat behind a keyboard

don't get angry with me my friend ...I am simply enjoying the masala entertainment show on offerlaughing 

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:14 pm

I'm sorry, but what Monty did off the field shouldn't have any bearing on England's selection process, unless he's done something really bad. Monty's marriage broke up, he went through a tough time, he should be supported by the team, not cast aside for Kerrigan. I do feel sorry for Monty.

I was wondering about Monty - he must have been drunk to do that. In which case, he's made a big mistake under the Sikh religion. I bet he's as upset about that as he is about losing a chance to play for England.

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Post by sirfredperry Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:14 pm

Last Test syndrome. Some may recall how an 86 in the final Test of a summer by Graeme Fowler cemented his place in the 1980s while Paul Parker made a duck at The Oval and the likes of Chris Balderstone and Alan Butcher and John Stephenson appeared, never to re-appear.
Let's hope that Woakes and Kerrigan don't go the same way.
Mind you, you can sometimes score 158 at The Oval and still not make the winter tour (d'Oliveira in 1968).

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Post by KP_fan Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:15 pm

VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
You fail to mention the 'genius' of Panesar bowling 40 overs in the first innings of the Test taking 4 wickets. Stopping India taking advantage of the toss
yeah correct......that genius is out of the squad today by England's self inflicted choice
Yes of course Andy Flower personally ordered him to pee on that bouncer. What planet are you on? Absolutely correct decision to get rid of Monty after what he did.
did he Pee onfield on an umpire or at a spectator ?
 
Off-field and off work hours should be kept off the work record........unfortunately Eng's moral policing hurts them more.
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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:17 pm

KP_fan wrote:
VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
You fail to mention the 'genius' of Panesar bowling 40 overs in the first innings of the Test taking 4 wickets. Stopping India taking advantage of the toss
yeah correct......that genius is out of the squad today by England's self inflicted choice
Yes of course Andy Flower personally ordered him to pee on that bouncer. What planet are you on? Absolutely correct decision to get rid of Monty after what he did.
did he Pee onfield on an umpire or at a spectator ?

Off-field and off work hours should be kept off........unfortunately Eng's moral policing hurts them more.
Better tell the Aussies that as well as then, because the Warner incident was off the field also. Truly you are something else. And don't respond to this because you're back on my ignore list.

Good day to you sir

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:20 pm

If Monty assaulted someone, fine, keep him away. If he sent someone hate mail on Twitter, fine, keep him out. But he came out, admitted he done wrong, apologised all round, and is actually sorry about what happened, you can see how it's affected him. England should have considered him for selection, even if they then said 'we want to give Kerrigan a go'.

Besides Kerrigan, who else could have played?

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:20 pm

Lots to ponder. I'm actually not too worried by Kerrigan, it was a calculated assault by Watson and it worked, but I'm backing him to come back strongly. Woakes showed enough to suggest he could be a good bowler for England, but needs to cut out the loose stuff (6 boundaries in 5 overs is way too many, and 4 of them were genuinely bad balls).

People say Test cricket isn't the place to be experimenting, but equally people (in some case the same people) have had a go at England's selectors for taking a look at players in the shorter form of the game first. So what do you do? Blood them against Bangladesh? You don't learn anything there...

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Post by KP_fan Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:20 pm

VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
You fail to mention the 'genius' of Panesar bowling 40 overs in the first innings of the Test taking 4 wickets. Stopping India taking advantage of the toss
yeah correct......that genius is out of the squad today by England's self inflicted choice
Yes of course Andy Flower personally ordered him to pee on that bouncer. What planet are you on? Absolutely correct decision to get rid of Monty after what he did.
did he Pee onfield on an umpire or at a spectator ?

Off-field and off work hours should be kept off........unfortunately Eng's moral policing hurts them more.
Better tell the Aussies that as well as then, because the Warner incident was off the field also. Truly you are something else. And don't respond to this because you're back on my ignore list.

Good day to you sir
So what happened to Warner?? He is playing for Austrlia and may well be their captain in future ?
Ponting bashed someone in bar and had a lond and successful career as a captain
Ditto Clarke
They don't kill your career in Austrlai for off field ...off work hour activities,


Eng also doesn't kill career for off field misdemenours unless your name is a KP or an MP censored 
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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:21 pm

Maybe Kerrigan & Woakes were put on to speed up a declaration Very Happy 

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:22 pm

Azzy Mahmood wrote:If Monty assaulted someone, fine, keep him away. If he sent someone hate mail on Twitter, fine, keep him out. But he came out, admitted he done wrong, apologised all round, and is actually sorry about what happened, you can see how it's affected him. England should have considered him for selection, even if they then said 'we want to give Kerrigan a go'.

Besides Kerrigan, who else could have played?
Monty was never going to be considered for this one, rightfully so IMO. I suspect that had he not had those indiscretions England would have stuck to their tried and testes formula anyway. This was very much about getting a look at Woakes and Kerrigan.

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:22 pm

Steve Gerrard punched someone in a bar, the CCTV was clear as day, yet he wasn't dropped by England or Liverpool.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:23 pm

KP_fan wrote:
VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
You fail to mention the 'genius' of Panesar bowling 40 overs in the first innings of the Test taking 4 wickets. Stopping India taking advantage of the toss
yeah correct......that genius is out of the squad today by England's self inflicted choice
Yes of course Andy Flower personally ordered him to pee on that bouncer. What planet are you on? Absolutely correct decision to get rid of Monty after what he did.
did he Pee onfield on an umpire or at a spectator ?

Off-field and off work hours should be kept off........unfortunately Eng's moral policing hurts them more.
Better tell the Aussies that as well as then, because the Warner incident was off the field also. Truly you are something else. And don't respond to this because you're back on my ignore list.

Good day to you sir
So what happened to Warner??  He is playing for Austrlia and may well be their captain in future ?
Ponting bashed someone in  bar and had a lond and successful career as a captain
Ditto Clarke
They don't kill your career in Austrlai for off field ...off work hour activities,


Eng also doesn't kill career for off field misdemenours unless your name is a KP or an MP censored 
um KP misses one test? really "killed" his career. Warner missed the first two here (in large part because of his off-field behaviour), so that's his career burtally r*ped and murdered, by your standards, right? Same with Monty, he's maybe missed this test (and maybe not, I'm not sure England would have picked him anyway)...

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:24 pm

Azzy Mahmood wrote:I'm sorry, but what Monty did off the field shouldn't have any bearing on England's selection process, unless he's done something really bad. Monty's marriage broke up, he went through a tough time, he should be supported by the team, not cast aside for Kerrigan. I do feel sorry for Monty.
There is far more to Monty's demotion at National level than just the nightclub incident, I believe that was just the last straw. He has had numerous issues, both on and off the field with Sussex this season. Hence why he was released by the county.

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:25 pm

I think he was allowed to leave rather than released, but it's the same thing really. What did he do then?

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:25 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Lots to ponder. I'm actually not too worried by Kerrigan, it was a calculated assault by Watson and it worked, but I'm backing him to come back strongly. Woakes showed enough to suggest he could be a good bowler for England, but needs to cut out the loose stuff (6 boundaries in 5 overs is way too many, and 4 of them were genuinely bad balls).

People say Test cricket isn't the place to be experimenting, but equally people (in some case the same people) have had a go at England's selectors for taking a look at players in the shorter form of the game first. So what do you do? Blood them against Bangladesh? You don't learn anything there...
Excellent post. We've seen less than 10 overs from the debutatants yet they are being written off aleady. KP made an assault on Lyon at Old Trafford but Lyon was good enough to come back from it. The far more experienced Finn got targeted at Trent Bridge.

I am all for blooding new players in a dead rubber.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:25 pm

Azzy Mahmood wrote:Steve Gerrard punched someone in a bar, the CCTV was clear as day, yet he wasn't dropped by England or Liverpool.
yeah and Terry was stripped of the captaincy, dropped and hung out to dry by all and sundry for sleeping with his ex-teammate's EX-girlfriend. So let's not bring football into this one, please.

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:26 pm

It was a simple comparison, which sport it was doesn't matter.

That rugby guy who's married to Zara Phillips, he did some stupid things while out drinking, and he wasn't dropped either.

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:27 pm

Azzy Mahmood wrote:Steve Gerrard punched someone in a bar, the CCTV was clear as day, yet he wasn't dropped by England or Liverpool.
Gerrard denied the assault so the club took the stance of innocent until proven guilty, he was eventually found not guilty. However ridiculous that decision appears, Monty has admitted to his mistake so the two are not really comparable.

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:27 pm

Azzy Mahmood wrote:Steve Gerrard punched someone in a bar, the CCTV was clear as day, yet he wasn't dropped by England or Liverpool.
He definitely should have been though

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Post by hampo17 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:27 pm

Lots of rumours that this wasn't Montys first "issue" off the field and that's why it has been handled this way.

Surprised so many people are whinging about Kerrigan and Woakes playing, not just on here but people like Michael Vaughen as well. They are both young lads, who need the experience. Watson took a gamble playing that way, on another day he may of got out cheaply but it has come off.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:28 pm

as DM says though, it's just the last in a line of misdemeanours, to the extent that the County basically sacked him. Now surely if it's bad enough to see you sacked by your County, you should be nowhere near the national team?

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:28 pm

Azzy Mahmood wrote:It was a simple comparison, which sport it was doesn't matter.

That rugby guy who's married to Zara Phillips, he did some stupid things while out drinking, and he wasn't dropped either.
Mike Tindall did not commit any criminal offence. Sorry, you are comparing Apples with Oranges on this one.

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:29 pm

If we wanted to look at Woakes and Kerrigan, then we should have given each of them the series against New Zealand. Took Kerrigan on tour, and played Woakes at home. Then they both have the experience they need, and England don't potentially lose an Ashes Test because of it.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:30 pm

hampo171 wrote:Lots of rumours that this wasn't Montys first "issue" off the field and that's why it has been handled this way.

Surprised so many people are whinging about Kerrigan and Woakes playing, not just on here but people like Michael Vaughen as well. They are both young lads, who need the experience. Watson took a gamble playing that way, on another day he may of got out cheaply but it has come off.
I'd ignore Vaughan. He's spent most of his time in the commentary box banging on about how England should play five bowlers, Prior good enough to bat 6, etc. and yet today he comes up with " I believe three seamers and a spinner is enough and tall, hit-the-deck bowlers will always get something out of the pitch." Plank...

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:30 pm

hampo171 wrote:Lots of rumours that this wasn't Montys first "issue" off the field and that's why it has been handled this way.

Surprised so many people are whinging about Kerrigan and Woakes playing, not just on here but people like Michael Vaughen as well. They are both young lads, who need the experience. Watson took a gamble playing that way, on another day he may of got out cheaply but it has come off.
Especially as Vaughan made his debut alongside Chris Adams and Gavin Hamilton! There are times when a few debutants make sense: back then it was the start of rebuilding the team, here its because there is nothing at stake

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:31 pm

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
Azzy Mahmood wrote:It was a simple comparison, which sport it was doesn't matter.

That rugby guy who's married to Zara Phillips, he did some stupid things while out drinking, and he wasn't dropped either.
Mike Tindall did not commit any criminal offence.  Sorry, you are comparing Apples with Oranges on this one.
Maybe, but it wasn't intended to be a precise comparison. Gerrard was found innocent, it doesn't mean he didn't punch the guy (we all saw it), and it doesn't mean Tindall didn't cheat on his wife, which for me is far worse than peeing on a bouncer.

Anyway, I'll cease with the Monty talk. I feel sorry for him, and hope he can get back to his best. He's bowled a further 13 overs this morning for Essex, 0-44. So not as economical as yesterday. But then again, Northants are bludgeoning us Sad

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:31 pm

Azzy Mahmood wrote:If we wanted to look at Woakes and Kerrigan, then we should have given each of them the series against New Zealand. Took Kerrigan on tour, and played Woakes at home. Then they both have the experience they need, and England don't potentially lose an Ashes Test because of it.
I disagree with this. The Ashes are won, and well won, it would be very disrespectful to NZ to suggest that they're that much weaker than England that England can afford to experiment against them. I would value a series win against NZ above a dead Ashes rubber personally...

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Post by KP_fan Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:34 pm

Only silver lining for Monty is by sitting out........his stock has gone up.
Like KP.....MP will be made to send apologise and rub his nose in public and his private / personal indiscretion leaked to public...and then brouhg back because Eng will realize they need him
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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:35 pm

Disagree all you want, how did we do against New Zealand again? A worthless tour and an easy home series win. It's not disrespectful to pick new players, one new player in your side is fine.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:36 pm

hampo171 wrote:Lots of rumours that this wasn't Montys first "issue" off the field and that's why it has been handled this way.
Surprised so many people are whinging about Kerrigan and Woakes playing, not just on here but people like Michael Vaughen as well. They are both young lads, who need the experience. Watson took a gamble playing that way, on another day he may of got out cheaply but it has come off.
How do we know that there were otehr off-field issues?
Unless confidential / personal informations have been leaked a-la-KP-gate when English management takes actions against a player...they leak private informations to make their case stronger.

it's called hitting below the belt
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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:38 pm

KP_fan wrote:
hampo171 wrote:Lots of rumours that this wasn't Montys first "issue" off the field and that's why it has been handled this way.
Surprised so many people are whinging about Kerrigan and Woakes playing, not just on here but people like Michael Vaughen as well. They are both young lads, who need the experience. Watson took a gamble playing that way, on another day he may of got out cheaply but it has come off.
How do we know that there were otehr off-field issues?
Unless confidential / personal informations have been leaked a-la-KP-gate when English management takes actions against a player...they leak private informations to make their case stronger.

it's called hitting below the belt
Give it a rest.

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:40 pm

Azzy Mahmood wrote:
Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
Azzy Mahmood wrote:It was a simple comparison, which sport it was doesn't matter.

That rugby guy who's married to Zara Phillips, he did some stupid things while out drinking, and he wasn't dropped either.
Mike Tindall did not commit any criminal offence.  Sorry, you are comparing Apples with Oranges on this one.
Maybe, but it wasn't intended to be a precise comparison. Gerrard was found innocent, it doesn't mean he didn't punch the guy (we all saw it), and it doesn't mean Tindall didn't cheat on his wife, which for me is far worse than peeing on a bouncer.
(
I am only pointing out the facts, in Gerrard's case, I agree with you. Like I agree with Monty not being in the Test squad.

But you can't really have a go at the ECB for doing the right thing, because other sports did the wrong thing.

Anyway as you say, lets get back to the Test.

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:44 pm

Predictions for this afternoon? Mine:

Watson century
Rogers dithers to a 50
Both out in quick succession
Clarke gets set
Tea = Australia 240-3

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Post by Duty281 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:49 pm

KP_fan wrote:Only silver lining for Monty is by sitting out........his stock has gone up.
Like KP.....MP will be made to send apologise and rub his nose in public and his private / personal indiscretion leaked to public...and then brouhg back because Eng will realize they need him
He's England second spinner for a reason. Right now, his head isn't in the right place, so England have given a chance to Kerrigan, to see what he can do ahead of this winter. Monty will never be as good as Swann.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:51 pm

VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:watson narrowly misses a hundred before lunch and that too coming from 1 drop....1 more over from Kerrigan might have done it Smile
Kerrigan is a good bowler, nerves got the better of him on debut, it happens. You are just a smug **** sat behind a keyboard
Agreed VTR. He didn't do himself justice in the first session, he'll have more chances in this game to put that right.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:52 pm

Duty281 wrote: Monty will never be as good as Swann.
who knows ?

when they played together in UAE and India...Monty was better,
thereafter he wasn't played...Swann just assumed better
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Post by alfie Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:54 pm

Azzy Mahmood wrote:If Monty assaulted someone, fine, keep him away. If he sent someone hate mail on Twitter, fine, keep him out. But he came out, admitted he done wrong, apologised all round, and is actually sorry about what happened, you can see how it's affected him. England should have considered him for selection, even if they then said 'we want to give Kerrigan a go'.

Besides Kerrigan, who else could have played?
But it is little to do with "morals" - or even manners , Azzy.

It is more that someone who carries on like that due to his personal life being in turmoil is unlikely to be in an ideal mental state to cope with the pressure of Test cricket. Not a risk any selection committee is going to take.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:55 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:     Monty will never be as good as Swann.
who knows ?

when they played together in UAE and India...Monty was better,
thereafter he wasn't played...Swann just assumed better
Monty was better in the UAE, I grant you that, but Swann was better in India. Anyway, it's not really up for debate is it? Swann has a lot more variation and a far greater ability to take wickets than Panesar.

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Post by alfie Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:56 pm

Swann snaffles Rogers !

Needed that Smile 

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Post by Duty281 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:56 pm

And speaking of Swann, he's just got a wicket. Well in!

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:57 pm

Get in Swanny 5th Test - Oval, Weds 21st August - Page 6 3559488474

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Post by KP_fan Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:57 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:     Monty will never be as good as Swann.
who knows ?

when they played together in UAE and India...Monty was better,
thereafter he wasn't played...Swann just assumed better
Monty was better in the UAE, I grant you that, but Swann was better in India. Anyway, it's not really up for debate is it? Swann has a lot more variation and a far greater ability to take wickets than Panesar.
correct.
you can assume anything
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Post by trebellbobaggins Wed 21 Aug 2013, 1:58 pm

Morning all

England experiment and Aussie cash in.  Win the toss win the game again?

still, if you can't experiment now when can you?

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