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5th Test - Oval, Weds 21st August

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 13 Aug 2013, 2:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

With England having won the series, I wonder what changes we will see to the teams.

England
The batting, barring Ian Bell, is misfiring. Too many times batsmen are getting in, but getting out for cameo scores. Prior is struggling a little with bat and gloves, but as the new boy and without a big innings, Jonny Bairstow is most at risk.
The wickets have been shared amongst the bowlers. Onions was unlucky to miss out at Chester-le-Street, but having now broken a finger is ruled out for two weeks. Monty's well publicised indiscretion will not endear him to the management and Steven Finn will probably be left to regain form and confidence with Middlesex. On his own ground, Chris Tremlett may get a run out, especially if they feel that Anderson or Broad need a rest.

all in all I suspect that changes are unlikely.


Australia
The good news is that they may have found an opening pair. The bad news is that the middle order is desperately fragile unless skipper Clarke scores runs. Khawaja and Smith are both batting at least two positions too high and unless he is able to bowl, Shane Watson looks a waste of a spot. Possible chances of recalls for Hughes or Cowan at 3 - and consideration has to be given to Faulkner lower down as an all-rounder.
Bowling has stood up well, but in another horses for course selection we may well see Starc replace Bird. Australia will be desperate for Harris to stay fit.




England have not played very well so far, especially the batters, yet are 3-0 up. Australia have shown they can compete but seem unable to win, even against a faltering team. If England can actually play well we could see a real thumping, but the money men at Ca will hope their team can sneak a win to create interest for the return series.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Fri 16 Aug 2013, 10:25 am

Know it's not going to happen, but I would love them to give Woakes a go. Going to be Finn or Tremlett though, most likely Tremlett, if England think he's up to 5 days.

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Post by banbrotam Fri 16 Aug 2013, 10:51 am

I'd be amazed if Tremlett isn't playing and thought he might have done before my counties player injury

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Post by KP_fan Fri 16 Aug 2013, 10:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:With England having won the series, I wonder what changes we will see to the teams.

England
The batting, barring Ian Bell, is misfiring. Too many times batsmen are getting in, but getting out for cameo scores. Prior is struggling a little with bat and gloves, but as the new boy and without a big innings, Jonny Bairstow is most at risk.
The wickets have been shared amongst the bowlers. Onions was unlucky to miss out at Chester-le-Street, but having now broken a finger is ruled out for two weeks. Monty's well publicised indiscretion will not endear him to the management and Steven Finn will probably be left to regain form and confidence with Middlesex. On his own ground, Chris Tremlett may get a run out, especially if they feel that Anderson or Broad need a rest.

all in all I suspect that changes are unlikely.


Australia
The good news is that they may have found an opening pair. The bad news is that the middle order is desperately fragile unless skipper Clarke scores runs. Khawaja and Smith are both batting at least two positions too high and unless he is able to bowl, Shane Watson looks a waste of a spot. Possible chances of recalls for Hughes or Cowan at 3 - and consideration has to be given to Faulkner lower down as an all-rounder.
Bowling has stood up well, but in another horses for course selection we may well see Starc replace Bird. Australia will be desperate for Harris to stay fit.




England have not played very well so far, especially the batters, yet are 3-0 up. Australia have shown they can compete but seem unable to win, even against a faltering team. If England can actually play well we could see a real thumping, but the money men at Ca will hope their team can sneak a win to create interest for the return series.
after the way Aussies collapsed in T4....to me it looks very hard that Aus can win T5.
neverthless they have to tyr their best.

watson has run out of life-lines........he is not cut out for test cricket inspite of whatever he does in T5.
Glen Maxwell or Mosises Henriques need to take that slot...if not possible in T5...then immediately afterwards in the next test.

smith gets one more game T5...make or break,

Khwaja should not be even in A team.

Bowling-wise......perhaps Faulkner with his handy lower order batting skills and much sharper pace will be much better than Jason Bird's medium pace.

Eng are goood like they are.... as they keep winning......so unless forced by injuries they should not tinker themselves too muhc and I don't think they will.
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Post by alfie Fri 16 Aug 2013, 12:36 pm

Well England are forced into a change. , and the choice is apparently between Tremlett , who has been with the squad so is logically the next man in , or a recall for Finn.
I imagine they want to take both to Australia anyway , so the issues are 1/ Who will benefit more from the match and 2/ who will help them win it ?
I have not the inside knowledge so I cannot say how how close to his physical peak Tremlett is ...but the physios will have a good idea. I do note guildford was doubtful as to the wisdom of calling him up a week or two back , so perhaps it may still be too early...
Finn has no fitness concerns but he was well off the pace when he played at Trent Bridge...it is more a mental issue with him I reckon. If they think he has got his rhythm back at Middlesex , maybe they will bring him back now : but if they have any doubts they won't , as they will not want him smacked around by the Aussies in another Test before flying out to their home grounds in a few months. The ODIs might be a better platform for his return , perhaps ?

Anyone else ? Surely not Rankin , can't consider two spinners unless one of them can bat , and would still need to drop a batsman and includ a third seamer...heard someone say "Stokes" but is his bowling really up to it ? Same Woakes...although perhaps he is the best alternative if they don't want to risk either of the tall men.
What a badly timed injury for poor Onions ! The one time he had a walk up start...

By the way I never liked the notion of "resting" Jimmy , and I am damned sure he would have liked it even less furious  One good thing from the Bresnan injury is that possibility is surely dead , if indeed it was ever considered.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 16 Aug 2013, 6:56 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Know it's not going to happen, but I would love them to give Woakes a go. Going to be Finn or Tremlett though, most likely Tremlett, if England think he's up to 5 days.
Please lord no. Woakes' bowling in ODIs has been a long, long, long way below what is needed for the international arena.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Fri 16 Aug 2013, 7:48 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:Know it's not going to happen, but I would love them to give Woakes a go. Going to be Finn or Tremlett though, most likely Tremlett, if England think he's up to 5 days.
Please lord no. Woakes' bowling in ODIs has been a long, long, long way below what is needed for the international arena.
Woakes is a poor one-day bowler, even at county level, but has an excellent FC record and is a much better bowler in the longer format.

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Post by msp83 Fri 16 Aug 2013, 8:03 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:Amazing how Finn becomes such an incredible bowler when he is out of the side...

Are you forgetting that he has a brainless approach to bowling, with an inability to pitch it up despite ball after ball being dropped in short and dispatched to the boundary?

Ok, perhaps a tad harsh, but that is exactly what he was doing at Trent Bridge. One of the worst bowling performances by someone in an England shirt for many a year.
People said similar things last year during the South Africa series when Bresnan was preferred to Finn. Many of us said Finny should be given a chance, the others responded by saying he's a good bowler only when he's out of the side. Then Finn got his chance, looked far more dangerious from ball one, and kept his test place in the side through some good performances and emerged as England's best in ODI. Then he, like any other bowler in the world, encountered a bit of a rough patch, partly resulting from the team management's mishandling of his run-up issues, and in his case, all those well documented policies of continuity of selection easily went out of the window. And now people are forgeting all his good work and assessing him only in terms of one bad test, a test in which he bowled badly for sure, but it has to be remembered that it was his twin strike in one over that shifted the lost momentum for England in the first place.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Fri 16 Aug 2013, 8:10 pm

Just as a formality I will re-cast Guildford's proxy vote and repeat that I don't think Tremlett would be a good idea for this test.  And as others have said, particularly not a good idea in a four man attack.  

OK it might work out if the Aussies implode.  But why take the risk?  Averages are not everything, especially when a good player is trying to work themselves back in after a lay off.  But I don't think that 19 wickets in 7 matches, av just under 40, strike rate of 74 this season for Surrey is all that misleading....

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Post by Liam Fri 16 Aug 2013, 9:29 pm

I'll be disappointed if Finn isn't recalled. He's gone back to county cricket, got some overs under his belt and taken a few wickets. He's got everything to become a world class bowler, England need to recall him and show some faith in him.

Doesn't say much for Finn when Tremlett is recalled after playing next to no cricket this summer, as well as no test match for what? 18 months?? I like Tremlett but Finn should be brought back in, especially if the pitch has pace and bounce.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 17 Aug 2013, 8:48 pm

I would hand Faulker a game in T5...for Bird
and Hughes back at No.3
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Post by LOVERBOY Sat 17 Aug 2013, 9:43 pm

Finn and Tremlett will both be in squad, as will Kerrigan, who may get a start depending on conditions.Ignore any nonsense about resting people and chucking some newbies in just for a change.

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Post by ShankyCricket Sat 17 Aug 2013, 10:49 pm

KP_fan wrote:I would hand Faulker a game in T5...for Bird
and Hughes back at No.3
He is a joke of a batsman. One of the worst I've ever seen picard

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Post by KP_fan Sun 18 Aug 2013, 12:05 am

ShankyCricket wrote:
KP_fan wrote:I would hand Faulker a game in T5...for Bird
and Hughes back at No.3
He is a joke of a batsman. One of the worst I've ever seen picard
then get Ed Cowans......someone has to replace Khwaja surely in T5
Hughes atleast got a 90odd n.o in T1
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Post by Duty281 Sun 18 Aug 2013, 2:48 am

Ballance made a ton for the Lions against Australia, to boost his (probably) faint selection hopes.

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Post by Guest Sun 18 Aug 2013, 8:39 am

Cowan can do more of a job than Hughes/Khawaja!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 18 Aug 2013, 9:40 am

Woakes, Finn and Kerrigan come into what remained of the squad
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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Aug 2013, 9:40 am

Cowan any day over Hughes. Hughes isn't international class.

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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Aug 2013, 9:42 am

Steven Finn recalled, and Chris Woakes and Simon Kerrigan get call ups for the 5th test. The injured Tim Bresnan is out. Hopes Finn gets back into the squad and delivers a performance that would bring his confidence back up.

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Post by msp83 Sun 18 Aug 2013, 9:44 am

Seems Monty's recent indiscretions have done him in.

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 18 Aug 2013, 10:45 am

msp83 wrote:Seems Monty's recent indiscretions have done him in.
And performances with the ball. Kerrigan is taking wickets, Monty is not.

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Post by GSC Sun 18 Aug 2013, 1:03 pm

It'll be Finn most likely. Tremlett isn't ready by all accounts and they aren't picking 2 spinners
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Post by JDizzle Sun 18 Aug 2013, 4:38 pm

It does open up the potential to pick 5 bowlers this squad. Something like Cook, Root, Trott, KP, Bell, Prior, Woakes, Broad, Swann, Kerrigan, Anderson. If they want to try something a little bit different. Can't really see it though.

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Post by GSC Sun 18 Aug 2013, 4:49 pm

England will never play 5 bowlers
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Post by Duty281 Mon 19 Aug 2013, 12:00 pm

I hope we play Kerrigan over Swann, because if he plays well then he may have a chance of becoming England's second spinner for the winter tour to Australia.

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Post by Guest Mon 19 Aug 2013, 12:02 pm

Kerrigan over Swann would be fine by me. Swanny needs his rest before a gruelling winter tour.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 19 Aug 2013, 12:20 pm

msp83 wrote:Seems Monty's recent indiscretions have done him in.
He has just been released by Sussex. Sad

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Post by sirfredperry Mon 19 Aug 2013, 12:44 pm

Monty has apologised and the gossip is that he will turn out for Northants during the rest of the season. The off-field probs that have been alluded to appear to include the break-up of his marriage. Seems Sussex have parted with him more in sorrow than in anger

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Post by Guest Mon 19 Aug 2013, 1:07 pm

I like his statement about trying to become the best spin bowler in the world. At 31, surely that chance has well and truly gone?

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Post by Duty281 Mon 19 Aug 2013, 1:13 pm

According to the BBC:

Chris Tremlett is "dying to" bowl against Australia in the fifth and final Ashes Test after recovering from a career-threatening back injury.

The Surrey fast bowler, 31, was included in England's squad to chase a 4-0 series victory over the Baggy Greens after Yorkshire's Tim Bresnan withdrew through injury, and he is relishing the chance to play on his home ground.

"I'm very hopeful. It's been a long time coming and it's been great to be back involved in the last two Test squads," he says. "I've had my injuries over the last couple of years and I'm dying to get an opportunity to play."

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Post by Guest Mon 19 Aug 2013, 1:14 pm

I had no idea he was 31 now Shocked

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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Aug 2013, 2:46 pm

I like Tremlett but doubt his fitness levels. His record this season hasn't been great either. It could be too demanding if he plays in a 4 man unit, not only on him, but on James Anderson and Stuart Broad who have played all the 6 tests in the summer.
Steven Finn is the future of England's bowling, the team management needs to back him well rather than stupidly undermining his confidence.

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Post by robbo277 Mon 19 Aug 2013, 3:18 pm

I wouldn't be against seeing Finn coming back in, seeing him tearing in with something to prove would be worth watching in itself. Hopefully he'll have instructions to pitch it up more and use the short ball as a surprise weapon. If there is any doubts over Tremlett's fitness (and not necessarily injury worries, more the ability to bowl long spells), then he shouldn't play. Woakes is a decent option if we want to look to bring in a bowler who is also a strong number 8 batsman to replace Bresnan, but I'm not sure if he's done enough to get that high on the pecking order just yet.

Kerrigan could be a decent option for the last test to rest Swann, especially as Australia are putting their left-handers at the top and packing their middle order with right-handers. The left-hander turning it away from the right hander could cause the Aussie middle order a few problems, and his form has been good this season. Root can also pitch in with some off-spin if needed.

Batting-wise I'd stick with the 6 we have (not that we have any choice given the squad selected). The selectors have backed Root and Bairstow's ability and potential and we have to give them a proper run in the team rather than making knee-jerk decisions. If there were any doubts over KP's fitness I would have brought Taylor into the team, but that doesn't seem to be an issue.

One change I would make is to move Bell to 3 and Trott to 5. Bell is in fantastic form at the moment and played very well in his last opportunity at 3 against India. Bell coming in at first drop may help prevent us quickly going 3 down and relying on Bell to dig us out of a hole - the situation we've been in most tests up until now. If Bell comes in and we get to 200-3 before Trott comes in, then that is a much better situation than being 50-3 as we have so often been. Trott has been scoring quite quickly this series as well, and with a bit of pressure off down at 5 he could take the opportunity to play himself back into form. If then we can get to 300+ for 5, that should take a bit of the pressure of Prior as well, who can then play freely and look to push the score up past 400/450.

Just a quick note on Monty, I think it's right that he hasn't been selected in the squad and I don't think he should tour Australia - he'd get destroyed out there by the crowds. Let him take the winter off and sort himself out, before starting the new county season wherever he is happiest and just focusing on bowling. A long-term decision on Monty shouldn't be made right now, but we should see how he goes in the new season and how he feels off the pitch before he's brought back into the England picture.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Mon 19 Aug 2013, 3:27 pm

robbo277 wrote: Woakes is a decent option if we want to look to bring in a bowler who is also a strong number 8 batsman to replace Bresnan, but I'm not sure if he's done enough to get that high on the pecking order just yet.

Not saying he should play, but Woakes has been one of, if not the, leading seam bowler in the CC for a number of years now. 280 wickets at 25.5 tell a story. He's also played pretty well for the Lions. Add in his batting, and he certainly deserves to be in and around the test squad IMO, especially with two players who would usually be picked ahead of him being injured. He is, in effect, being chosen as England's 4th back-up, but may have more chance of playing because he is more of a like-for-like replacement for Bresnan than either Finn or Tremlett.

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Post by robbo277 Mon 19 Aug 2013, 4:00 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
robbo277 wrote: Woakes is a decent option if we want to look to bring in a bowler who is also a strong number 8 batsman to replace Bresnan, but I'm not sure if he's done enough to get that high on the pecking order just yet.

Not saying he should play, but Woakes has been one of, if not the, leading seam bowler in the CC for a number of years now. 280 wickets at 25.5 tell a story. He's also played pretty well for the Lions. Add in his batting, and he certainly deserves to be in and around the test squad IMO, especially with two players who would usually be picked ahead of him being injured. He is, in effect, being chosen as England's 4th back-up, but may have more chance of playing because he is more of a like-for-like replacement for Bresnan than either Finn or Tremlett.
Maybe I'm judging him too harshly on his limited over appearances for England then. Think I'd probably still lean towards Finn, but I wouldn't be annoyed if Woakes got the nod.

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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Aug 2013, 8:49 pm

Bresnan himself has to be more of a reserve than first choice option. Finn's lack of consistency following the run-up changes and injury offered him a way back into the test side and he did a reasonable job. But if Finn's back in form, then he has to be the first choice option, and there is no need to go after a Bresnan type replacement.
I wouldn't mind Woakes getting an opportunity in the test side at some point, but I don't think the more suitable replacement for Bresnan argument is not good enough to pick him ahead of Finn. Besides, Bresnan on top of his game is a bit quicker than Woakes is, and he is more accurate as well.

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Post by msp83 Mon 19 Aug 2013, 8:50 pm

Reverse swing isn't Woakes' strong point is it?

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Mon 19 Aug 2013, 9:26 pm

msp83 wrote:Besides, Bresnan on top of his game is a bit quicker than Woakes is, and he is more accurate as well.
Don't know about Bresnan being more accurate in the longer form of the game. Woakes always strikes me as bowling a quite consistent line and length in first class cricket (although I must admit I haven't seen him bowl live this season). In fact I think this is his weakness in one day formats where consistent line and length is easy meat. Woakes struggles to vary his bowling and, in trying to do so, sometimes loses his accuracy as well.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 19 Aug 2013, 10:36 pm

I'd quite like to see Woakes given a go if I'm honest
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 20 Aug 2013, 1:48 pm

Sky Sports News ‏@SkySportsNews
Australia select Mitchell Starc and debutant James Faulkner for final Ashes Test replacing Jackson Bird and Usman Khawaja #SSN

By removing a batsman, they've actually strengthened the batting Laugh
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Post by KP_fan Tue 20 Aug 2013, 1:49 pm

Shane Watson will bat at three, with Brad Haddin in at six and Faulkner seven. #Ashes
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Last edited by KP_fan on Tue 20 Aug 2013, 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by KP_fan Tue 20 Aug 2013, 1:52 pm

Olly wrote:Sky Sports News ‏@SkySportsNews
Australia select Mitchell Starc and debutant James Faulkner for final Ashes Test replacing Jackson Bird and Usman Khawaja #SSN

By removing a batsman, they've actually strengthened the batting Laugh
it might be amusing....... but that indeed is serious philosophy of Australia here....

Faulkner and Mitchell will be better bats than Khawaja, Hughes or Cowans

PS* When logic doesn't back you....hope and philosophy takes over
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Post by VTR Tue 20 Aug 2013, 2:44 pm

A top 6 with Smith at 5 and Haddin at 6 looks pretty weak to me. The lower order may chip in, looks like they will need to.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 20 Aug 2013, 2:57 pm

Smith is a test 7 at best.


Of course he will now go and get a century.

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Aug 2013, 2:59 pm

I hadn't seen Khawaja bat before the Ashes began, and I don't think I ever will see him again now. Looked well out of his depth.

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Post by VTR Tue 20 Aug 2013, 3:26 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Smith is a test 7 at best.


Of course he will now go and get a century.
Agree with him being a 7, would be a fairly decent 7, but is a very poor 5 in my opinion. I see as being a useful 30 - 40 sort of player rather than one you want to be relying on for big runs on as part of the top 6.

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Aug 2013, 3:40 pm

Apart from Clarke, are any of the Australian batsmen able to be relied upon? I remember the days when the Waugh brothers would bat forever, you'd get Hussey, Martyn, Gilchrist, and spend 3.5/5 days in the field. Smith should be a number 5, if given the slot and allowed to grow into the role.

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Post by VTR Tue 20 Aug 2013, 3:48 pm

Fair point Azzy - the cupboard is pretty bare which is hard to believe as someone who also grew up watching the Waughs and the endless production line of great batsmen.

Happy for them to keep backing Smith at 5, not exactly a player I fear as an England supporter.

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Post by Guest Tue 20 Aug 2013, 3:50 pm

I'm an Essex fan and can remember that Stuart Law was on the verge of playing for England, such were the lack of opportunities for Aussie batsmen at the time. And on his day he was a better batsman than KP, which shows just how good Australia were in those days.

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Post by Duty281 Tue 20 Aug 2013, 7:16 pm

Cricinfo believes this will be the England line-up tomorrow:

1 Alastair Cook (capt), 2 Joe Root, 3 Jonathan Trott, 4 Kevin Pietersen, 5 Ian Bell, 6 Jonny Bairstow, 7 Matt Prior (wk), 8 Stuart Broad, 9 Graeme Swann, 10 Chris Tremlett 11 James Anderson.

Swap Kerrigan for Swann, and that's exactly what I'd go for!

4-0 would be nice, and it's Cook's chance to create history again, just like when he captained his country to victory in India.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 20 Aug 2013, 9:31 pm

now there is little interest left in the series
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