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Tuesday qualifiers

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Post by Liam Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Macedonia vs Scotland (7:30)
Wales vs Serbia (7:45)
Ukraine vs England (7:45)
Austria vs ROI (7:45)

As a welsh man i'm not holding out for too much against Serbia. We're without joniesta and williams so it means there's even more pressure on Ramsey to pull something out the bag again. Hopefully Coleman's team selection and tactics improve and we're more positive against Serbia. If we'd gone for it we would've won in Macedonia. Fingers crossed bale get's 15 mins at least.

Tough games for England and ROI, I expect England to get a point at least or maybe sneak a win.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:07 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Spoiler:

I'd agree with all of that.
Sums up everything that's wrong with him and with England. He thinks attacking automatically means you'll lose, and the rest is just an exercise in excuse-making (yes the excuses are true, but they're still excuses). Then again, he also said "I think we had clear control of the game in the second half." which is quite clearly delusional...

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Post by mystiroakey Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:08 pm

walcott is an attacking option. infact the only one we had- we clearly set up to counter being in the enviable position of being top with a draw . So yes boring safe options from roy but our midfield was shocking tonight. no service at all. when walcott had the ball he actually tried to do something- but sadly he hardly had it full stop. someone like rooney would have provided him much more

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Post by Duty281 Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:08 pm

In terms of qualification right now, I'd rather be where England are as opposed to where Uruguay, France, Croatia, or Portugal are.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:09 pm

Having said that, in the scheme of things (WC qualification), tonight is a decent point, and keeps us still in charge of our own destiny.

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Post by owen10ozzy Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:09 pm

And in response to Hodgson's talk of a loss and we wouldn't be sat top of the group...

Had the team shown more willingness to go out for the win in previous games...i.e. against Ukraine ...AT HOME! and against Poland and Montenegro where we scraped by we could have potentially come into this game with the group already sewn up!

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Post by Guest Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:10 pm

Just embarrassing. Only beaten San Marino n Moldova, yet they have the cheek to say they will win both remaining home games. The group is shocking, quality is appalling. Why bother to qualify n endure these negative tactics at the WC against much, much superior opposition than Ukraine. What a mess, can't believe how bad we are nowadays n u can't just say we missed Rooney n welbeck, pretty sure they were available in previous games we've struggled.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:10 pm

This pretty much sums up the game;

John Anderson ‏@GreatFaceRadio
A result which puts England closer to Brazil but a performance which suggests we'll be making up the numbers if we get there.
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Post by GSC Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:10 pm

Carricks been useless when he plays for England.

That a point from Ukraine is a good point says more about England's position.

Watching England is a chore these days
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:11 pm

mystiroakey wrote:walcott is an attacking option. infact the only one we had- we clearly set up to counter being in the enviable position of being top with a draw . So yes boring safe options from roy but our midfield was shocking tonight. no service at all. when walcott had the ball he actually tried to do something- but sadly he hardly had it full stop. someone like rooney would have provided him much more
when Walcott had the ball he inevitably passed it to an opponent. I agree he didn't have great service but he had the ball in decent positions a few times and gave it aay every time.

I actually like Walcott, but he had a stinker tonight.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:11 pm

1 toe poke, 1 bad refereeing decision, and one waterlogged pitch. The price?

6 points for England.

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Post by Liam Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:12 pm

Is carrick the only guy that's played poor ever for england? unbelievable. The guy is a class act who was missed tonight for England. What the hell have Lampard and Gerrard or Wilshere done in the last two games.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:13 pm

Michael Carrick really isn't the answer for England
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Post by GSC Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:13 pm

You can't act like Carricks some fix all solution when he's been just as bad
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Post by owen10ozzy Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:14 pm

Duty281 wrote:In terms of qualification right now, I'd rather be where England are as opposed to where Uruguay, France, Croatia, or Portugal are.
Uruguay have Argentina, Columbia and lets not forget thousands of air miles of travel before games and games at vastly different altitudes...

France are sat in the same group as the winners of the last 3 major tournaments.

Croatia sit in a group consisting of one of the most exciting young teams in football at the moment...Belgium (who would tear England apart)

Portugal have Russia in their group....a much better team than any of those in our group!

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Post by Liam Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:14 pm

I'd play Carrick all day long. He couldn't do any worse than the midfielders on the pitch for England tonight.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:15 pm

Liam wrote:Is carrick the only guy that's played poor ever for england? unbelievable. The guy is a class act who was missed tonight for England. What the hell have Lampard and Gerrard or Wilshere done in the last two games.
TBH I have mixed views on Carrick. On the one hand I don't think I've ever seen him have a good game for England (this is not to say he hasn't, but in all the ones I've watched he's been ordinary at best), but on the other he probably can't do much worse than the midfield trio did tonight. Unfortunately I think it's a problem way beyond fixing through a simple change of personnel...

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Post by mystiroakey Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:17 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:walcott is an attacking option. infact the only one we had- we clearly set up to counter being in the enviable position of being top with a draw . So yes boring safe options from roy but our midfield was shocking tonight. no service at all. when walcott had the ball he actually tried to do something- but sadly he hardly had it full stop. someone like rooney would have provided him much more
when Walcott had the ball he inevitably passed it to an opponent. I agree he didn't have great service but he had the ball in decent positions a few times and gave it aay every time.

I actually like Walcott, but he had a stinker tonight.
Well we saw a different game then because to me- forgetting the second half(everyone had a shocker) he was the best attacking player on display. Wilshire had the worst game i have ever seen him play and gerrard and lampard couldn't even control the ball!! Lampbert didn't even need to be on the pitch tbh.

I think we had about 3 shots all game- but just look at the runs walcott made - yet every ball to him was over hit!

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Post by GSC Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:18 pm

Clearly the way to go is to pick another serial under performer in place of the others
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Post by Duty281 Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:18 pm

owen10ozzy wrote:
Duty281 wrote:In terms of qualification right now, I'd rather be where England are as opposed to where Uruguay, France, Croatia, or Portugal are.
Uruguay have Argentina, Columbia and lets not forget thousands of air miles of travel before games and games at vastly different altitudes...

France are sat in the same group as the winners of the last 3 major tournaments.

Croatia sit in a group consisting of one of the most exciting young teams in football at the moment...Belgium (who would tear England apart)

Portugal have Russia in their group....a much better team than any of those in our group!
Belgium tear England apart? No my dear fellow, that's not bloody likely. Only Germany I would favour to beat England. Speaking of which:

Germany-England final next year I reckon, if the draw gets set right. Otherwise it might be like Brazil-England during 2002.

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Post by Guest Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:20 pm

That Ukraine central midfield had no quality, they were dire. Play 4-4-2 and push them back, play Defoe n offer support to Lambert n have pace in behind. What did we do, sit back, invite pressure n isolate lambert. Simply horrifying tactics from negative Roy. Ukraine attacked n went for the win in Montenegro n won 4-1 or something. We went there n defended n barely got a draw. We made a dire team look good. Ukraine went there n made a dire team look dire. Roy again.

Duty, Belgium would rip us another a** hole

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Post by The Terror of Tylorstown Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:21 pm

If Carrick plays then neither Lampard and Gerrard can play, they just don't suit his style of play, he needs someone alongside him he can rely on to play the simple passes. He's not a creative master but he sets a good platform for the more attack minded players, he's done it for years at United and Cleverley has been moulded into a player who primarily plays simple passes back and forth.

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Post by Hero Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:21 pm

Duty281 wrote:
owen10ozzy wrote:
Duty281 wrote:In terms of qualification right now, I'd rather be where England are as opposed to where Uruguay, France, Croatia, or Portugal are.
Uruguay have Argentina, Columbia and lets not forget thousands of air miles of travel before games and games at vastly different altitudes...

France are sat in the same group as the winners of the last 3 major tournaments.

Croatia sit in a group consisting of one of the most exciting young teams in football at the moment...Belgium (who would tear England apart)

Portugal have Russia in their group....a much better team than any of those in our group!
Belgium tear England apart? No my dear fellow, that's not bloody likely. Only Germany I would favour to beat England. Speaking of which:

Germany-England final next year I reckon, if the draw gets set right. Otherwise it might be like Brazil-England during 2002.
I think you've finally lost it.

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Post by GSC Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:24 pm

Cleverley does sweet f all
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Post by Liam Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:24 pm

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:If Carrick plays then neither Lampard and Gerrard can play, they just don't suit his style of play, he needs someone alongside him he can rely on to play the simple passes. He's not a creative master but he sets a good platform for the more attack minded players, he's done it for years at United and Cleverley has been moulded into a player who primarily plays simple passes back and forth.
This.

That's why Utd were after an attacking midfielder all summer, because Carrick is the type a player a top attacking midfielder can thrive off. Carrick alongside Gerrard/Lampard/Wilshere would be the way forward.

Also, yes the performance was dreadful but 0-0 is good result. England are an average side. Fact. They haven't got the players to be beating Ukraine 2/3-0 away from home, never mind at home.

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Post by NickisBHAFC Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:25 pm

Complete rubbish performance, horror to watch. Why can't we pass it and attack them? Theo Walcott again letting the county down. Worst of them lot. Lambert and Walker looked out of there dept. 

I never thought i would say it, but we did 100% need Carrick in the middle tonight, there was no one to keep it simple and play the passing the game. Say what you want about Carrick, but if you understand football, we needed him to play tonight. A LOT of people on my twitter feed agreed. 

Still i suppose a point isn't a bad result now. It will take a big man sausage up to deny us top spot. In our own hands now.

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Post by Steffan Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:26 pm

Duty has been on the cider tonight it seems

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Post by Duty281 Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:27 pm

Steffan wrote:Duty has been on the cider tonight it seems
Teetotal Steffan, always have been.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:28 pm

At the end of the day, I'd have taken a point pre-match, so I'm satisfied.

Now time to show and perform at home. We've only got ourselves to blame if we man sausage it up from here
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Post by owen10ozzy Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:29 pm

Hhahahahaha! I would have taken your first comment slightly serious had you not come out with the tripe you spewed in the second.

Tear apart may have been an overstatement but I would hedge my money on Belgium beating England at the moment.

Just what makes you think we are capable of beating the likes of Holland, Argentina, Italy, France, Spain etc *which we would inevitably have to do to get the final against Brazil/Germany?

We haven't beaten a 'top class' team in a major tournament since Argentina in 2002 (Thanks to a Beckham Penalty) ....before that...1996 Holland ....that's 2 top class competitive wins in 16 years!? And were getting to a World Cup final next year!! Ha!

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Post by The Terror of Tylorstown Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:30 pm

Liam wrote:
The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:If Carrick plays then neither Lampard and Gerrard can play, they just don't suit his style of play, he needs someone alongside him he can rely on to play the simple passes. He's not a creative master but he sets a good platform for the more attack minded players, he's done it for years at United and Cleverley has been moulded into a player who primarily plays simple passes back and forth.
This.

That's why Utd were after an attacking midfielder all summer, because Carrick is the type a player a top attacking midfielder can thrive off. Carrick alongside Gerrard/Lampard/Wilshere would be the way forward.

Also, yes the performance was dreadful but 0-0 is good result. England are an average side. Fact. They haven't got the players to be beating Ukraine 2/3-0 away from home, never mind at home.
Wilshere yes but not Gerrard or Lampard, they lack the short passing ability to thrive off him.

Cleverley's not a fancy player but he does the job asked of him hence why he's got a premier league winners medal and was Carricks most used midfield partner last season.

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Post by Liam Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:30 pm

Has it ever occurred to England fans that the players just aren't that good and that a 0-0 in Ukraine, despite the performance is about right of where this team is and what its capable of?

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Post by The Terror of Tylorstown Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:31 pm

Steffan wrote:Duty has been on the cider tonight it seems
For once I agree with you, he brings a bad name to the rest of us english, I feel genuinely sorry for him.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:32 pm

Liam wrote:Has it ever occurred to England fans that the players just aren't that good and that a 0-0 in Ukraine, despite the performance is about right of where this team is and what its capable of?
It would appear that the average England fan, not myself of course, believes that we're not very good but stil expect us to do very well. Interesting paradox.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:33 pm

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:
Steffan wrote:Duty has been on the cider tonight it seems
For once I agree with you, he brings a bad name to the rest of us english, I feel genuinely sorry for him.
Yep, it's so terribly wrong to hold optimism isn't it?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:33 pm

For me with England the passing in midfield is not so much of a problem, Lampard/Gerrard/Wilshere can all pass the ball, it's the lack of movement and fluidity up front which we lack. I can't remember one time when I thought, oh that was some nice movement tonight.

You can put Carrick in the midfield, but he for me, wouldn't have made much of a difference tonight. The problem was further up the pitch with a lack of movement in the front three for me
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:33 pm

Liam wrote:Has it ever occurred to England fans that the players just aren't that good and that a 0-0 in Ukraine, despite the performance is about right of where this team is and what its capable of?
nope, the problem is with a manager who thinks it's a great result, and players not performing. The players are better than this, they need to start showing it. Clubs also need to be much more harshly punished for pulling their players out of international games for flimsy reasons (start by enforcing the existing rules).

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Post by Guest Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:34 pm

John wrote:That Ukraine central midfield had no quality, they were dire. Play 4-4-2 and push them back, play Defoe n offer support to Lambert n have pace in behind. What did we do, sit back, invite pressure n isolate lambert. Simply horrifying tactics from negative Roy. Ukraine attacked n went for the win in Montenegro n won 4-1 or something. We went there n defended n barely got a draw. We made a dire team look good. Ukraine went there n made a dire team look dire. Roy again.

Duty, Belgium would rip us another a** hole
Were being held back in my opinion. Roy`s tactics offer no hope for progression, its painstaking to watch, limits players abilities n offers weak teams the chance to impose themselves on the game, when we should be offensive n showcasing what we can actually offer.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:36 pm

I don't think England are a great team, certainly not on the same level as Spain, Germany, maybe Holland. But we have good enough players to be top 8 in the world (ie QF of World Cup). On today's performance, we'll be lucky to make the second round quite frankly, it's embarrassing...

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Post by Duty281 Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:37 pm

owen10ozzy wrote:Hhahahahaha! I would have taken your first comment slightly serious had you not come out with the tripe you spewed in the second.

Tear apart may have been an overstatement but I would hedge my money on Belgium beating England at the moment.

Just what makes you think we are capable of beating the likes of Holland, Argentina, Italy, France, Spain etc *which we would inevitably have to do to get the final against Brazil/Germany?

We haven't beaten a 'top class' team in a major tournament since Argentina in 2002 (Thanks to a Beckham Penalty) ....before that...1996 Holland ....that's 2 top class competitive wins in 16 years!? And were getting to a World Cup final next year!! Ha!
Didn't Holland have a worse Euro 2012 than us, losing to Denmark?
Aren't the Argies overly reliant on Messi who, like Rooney, never really performs for his country?
Weren't France and Italy unable to beat an injury-ridden England last summer?
Wouldn't Spain play right into England's hands?

Oh and I would say a semi-final should be England's aim next summer, but we are perfectly capable of going all the way.

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Post by The Terror of Tylorstown Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:38 pm

Olly wrote:For me with England the passing in midfield is not so much of a problem, Lampard/Gerrard/Wilshere can all pass the ball, it's the lack of movement and fluidity up front which we lack. I can't remember one time when I thought, oh that was some nice movement tonight.

You can put Carrick in the midfield, but he for me, wouldn't have made much of a difference tonight. The problem was further up the pitch with a lack of movement in the front three for me
Lampard and Gerrard are very direct with their passing, they force it a bit too much and don't wait for the openings. The lack of movement is a result of trying to force the passing, in international football you need a slower less direct approach to create gaps then go for the killer pass.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:40 pm

Duty281 wrote:
owen10ozzy wrote:Hhahahahaha! I would have taken your first comment slightly serious had you not come out with the tripe you spewed in the second.

Tear apart may have been an overstatement but I would hedge my money on Belgium beating England at the moment.

Just what makes you think we are capable of beating the likes of Holland, Argentina, Italy, France, Spain etc *which we would inevitably have to do to get the final against Brazil/Germany?

We haven't beaten a 'top class' team in a major tournament since Argentina in 2002 (Thanks to a Beckham Penalty) ....before that...1996 Holland ....that's 2 top class competitive wins in 16 years!? And were getting to a World Cup final next year!! Ha!
Didn't Holland have a worse Euro 2012 than us, losing to Denmark?
Aren't the Argies overly reliant on Messi who, like Rooney, never really performs for his country?
Weren't France and Italy unable to beat an injury-ridden England last summer?
Wouldn't Spain play right into England's hands?

Oh and I would say a semi-final should be England's aim next summer, but we are perfectly capable of going all the way.
Messi has 35 goals in 80 appearances which includes 12 goals in 9 appearances last year and 4 goals in 6 appearances this year and he is still 26.

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Post by Hero Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:42 pm

Duty your optimism with the National team is part of the problem, the issues within the English game are deep rooted, they're embedded and qualifying for the World Cup will simply those like minded to yourself but in positions of power within the FA to continue to paper over the cracks, bury their heads in the sand, put their fingers in their ears and whistle whilst the rest of Europe leave us 20 years in the past.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:42 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Wouldn't Spain play right into England's hands?
oh Duty, you are a treasure, I really admire your optimism I must say Very Happy
The thing is, unless England get much better at penalties than they have been in the recent (and not so recent) past, simply "not losing" to France and Italy won't be enough, we'll have to actually beat them...

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Post by Guest Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:45 pm

Exactly. Roys intends to win 1-0 n if it don't work we get a 0-0 draw. Everything is so negative. Fulham's euro adventure was 1-0`s. With penalties, we obviously lose.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:45 pm

I thought the commentators tonight lapsed into OFSTED speak (where a "satisfactory" school means one that is "unsatisfactory") .  

"The passing has been very average".  When surely they mean the passing has been way below the average of what you could expect from a half decent international team.

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Post by Duty281 Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:47 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Wouldn't Spain play right into England's hands?
oh Duty, you are a treasure, I really admire your optimism I must say Very Happy
The thing is, unless England get much better at penalties than they have been in the recent (and not so recent) past, simply "not losing" to France and Italy won't be enough, we'll have to actually beat them...
They would though wouldn't they? Is there a better team in the world to cope with Spain's slow passing, and 75% possession than England, who would be brilliantly organised? Then, would there be a better team than England to hit Spain on the counter-attack and take the one chance when it counts?

And if we were to play France or Italy on neutral territory tomorrow, with full-strength sides, I would back England to win both games. We're certainly a better team than we were 15 months ago.

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Post by The Terror of Tylorstown Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:47 pm

Rooney has 36 in 86, neither has ever performed in a big tournament except for Rooney when he was 17 but on the flipside they don't have the benefit of playing alongside world class players.

Rooney, Messi, Ronaldo and Van Persie for instance all have reasonable records at international level but that is helped in large part to the weaker teams they play almost every other game and the friendlies. I don't think any will ever perform fully for their countries because their countries simply aren't good enough to support them.

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Post by owen10ozzy Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:47 pm

Duty281 wrote:
owen10ozzy wrote:Hhahahahaha! I would have taken your first comment slightly serious had you not come out with the tripe you spewed in the second.

Tear apart may have been an overstatement but I would hedge my money on Belgium beating England at the moment.

Just what makes you think we are capable of beating the likes of Holland, Argentina, Italy, France, Spain etc *which we would inevitably have to do to get the final against Brazil/Germany?

We haven't beaten a 'top class' team in a major tournament since Argentina in 2002 (Thanks to a Beckham Penalty) ....before that...1996 Holland ....that's 2 top class competitive wins in 16 years!? And were getting to a World Cup final next year!! Ha!
Didn't Holland have a worse Euro 2012 than us, losing to Denmark?
Aren't the Argies overly reliant on Messi who, like Rooney, never really performs for his country?
Weren't France and Italy unable to beat an injury-ridden England last summer?
Wouldn't Spain play right into England's hands?

Oh and I would say a semi-final should be England's aim next summer, but we are perfectly capable of going all the way.
Have Holland failed to qualify for a major final lately?! Nope didn't think so...did they make the last World Cup Final...Yes..

Argentina - Over reliant on Messi...yet he hasn't performed for his country...though they still managed to go further than us in the last World Cup...not sure what your point is here.

Weren't England unable to beat an aging and national team in transformation in Italy and a France team which self implodes at every opportunity?

What you mean make the England players chase shadows for 90 minutes...and if they are unable to put the ball past us in normal time...tire us out and inevitably beat us on penalties?

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Post by Duty281 Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:50 pm

Hero wrote:Duty your optimism with the National team is part of the problem, the issues within the English game are deep rooted, they're embedded and qualifying for the World Cup will simply those like minded to yourself but in positions of power within the FA to continue to paper over the cracks, bury their heads in the sand, put their fingers in their ears and whistle whilst the rest of Europe leave us 20 years in the past.
Well the FA are certainly making steps to improve our youth structure. Small steps certainly, but we're getting there.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:52 pm

Duty281 wrote: Then, would there be a better team than England to hit Spain on the counter-attack and take the one chance when it counts?
I think there would be at least several.

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