Inter Fined £12500 for Racism

Wow thats a serious deterant...and going to break the bank eh??!!!!

If they are going to fight racism it needs to be millons of pounds for a fine...that'll get their attenion

More evidence of the moronic UEFA bureaucrats not giving a monkey's about racism.

Think it was last season, a Portuguese team involved, and the fine for one of the teams coming out the tunnel at half time late was greater than for the racist chanting by home fans.

What's the point of even fining a team, if you're just going to fine them a pittance?

Points deductions must be the answer, on an ever-growing scale for repeated infringements. Then the club will be forced to take action, rather than turn a blind eye.

Fines dont hurt clubs or the actual main culprit the fans, the only way to hurt the fans arw by dishing out points deductions and closing full stadiums

Wonder if players have to draw straws to see who loses 10% of their weeklies... Uefa proving just how serious they find racism

In my opinion clubs should not be fined or have any action taken against them for racist fans. Are we goig to fine London underground if passengers are racist on the tube? Or fine a restaurant if a customer is racist whilst eating his dinner there?

Racist behaviour needs to be dealt with by the police who need to use cctv to identify the culprit and punish him accordingly.

unsuprising.

TopHat24/7 wrote:unsuprising.

Punish the individual who committed the illegal activity, don't punish the football club that fan supports.

Also I think that punishing the clubs rather than the fans is actually used by the police as an excuse to not chase that racist individual harder. The police seem to act in a way where they believe justice or punishment has been served when clubs are fined and thus don't really chase after the individual who shouted the racist abuse.

Generally at football games, it's hundreds or thousands of fans, not just an individual though. So good luck chasing all them up

Agree points deductions would be the way to go imo

Olly wrote:Generally at football games, it's hundreds or thousands of fans, not just an individual though. So good luck chasing all them up

Agree points deductions would be the way to go imo

I don't think it is that hard to chase the fan. When I go to Arsenal games I have a ticket that I need to scan before gaining entrance to the stadium. The ticket has all of my information such as name, age, address etc and also what seat I am going to sit in. Very easy to traack me using cctv if I start shouting racist abuse.

There was 10's of thousands of people rioting in London in 2011 yet the police used CCTV and managed to arrest over 3000 people.

While your solution has plenty of logic to it you're having to put your faith in the hands of police officers the world over, or at least Europe wide, for that to happen we would need every country on the continent to view these crimes the exact same way, many Countries in Europe have varying degrees of tolerance while many different cultural ideals come into play too.

Your solution of having the police track them and charge them would be the best but that's an issue for a G8 Summit, we can't dictate how other countries run their Police or/and Judicial system but we do have a Governing body in Football that can go about tackling these issues ASAP.

Uefa and Fifa have the jurisdiction to enforce punishments so I believe they should be using those powers for good.

If a fan or fans cost a team points for racist behaviour then good luck to them the next time they try it, it'll be made clear by the decent majoriry that they wont stand by and let people harm their club, you're almost gauranteed to see an increase on information given to the club/authorities on the perpetrators

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:unsuprising.

Punish the individual who committed the illegal activity, don't punish the football club that fan supports.

Also I think that punishing the clubs rather than the fans is actually used by the police as an excuse to not chase that racist individual harder. The police seem to act in a way where they believe justice or punishment has been served when clubs are fined and thus don't really chase after the individual who shouted the racist abuse.

This isn't a case of a random racist in the street that happens to support an unaffiliated club and/or/maybe is wearing a club shirt. Club's don't employ deaf and blind staff, they employ people with working eyes and ears so when fans stand their making nazi salutes, monkey chants and unfurling huge racist banners then the buck stops with the club for not taking immediate prevantative action. If the club does nothing then implicitly it is condoning the actions and therefore deserves punishment.

If clubs keep get fined they will be motivated to find the culprits and ban them - thus preventing further fines. Given the popularity of most clubs and waiting lists for tickets they won't be concerned by lost revenue as they'll easily backfill the gaps.

Kay Fabe wrote:If a fan or fans cost a team points for racist behaviour then good luck to them the next time they try it, it'll be made clear by the decent majoriry that they wont stand by and let people harm their club, you're almost gauranteed to see an increase on information given to the club/authorities on the perpetrators

Good point, often people power is stronger than police. One of the main reasons the aforementioned riots stopped (other than it starting to get a bit cold and wet) was that vigilante groups took to the streets. Good honest locals refusing out to value and protect their communities and what they've worked hard for - and without the yuppie enforced reticence of the police.

If clubs start getting docked points because a few dozen, maybe a hundred, fans out of the tens of thousands at the stadium can't control themselves then you be sure the true supporters of the club will turn on them soon enough and hand out their own justice.

A very odd view from champagne_socialist.

Out for the count wrote:A very odd view from champagne_socialist.

Not odd if you know his posting history.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Out for the count wrote:A very odd view from champagne_socialist.

Not odd if you know his posting history.

This.

Legia Warsaw have been fined €150,000 and ordered to play 2 home UEFA matches behind closed doors for fans racism. 

That's a bit more like it.

Kay Fabe wrote:Legia Warsaw have been fined €150,000 and ordered to play 2 home UEFA matches behind closed doors for fans racism. 

Better punishment, but why does it differ so much from Inter Milan's?

Because IM are more fashionable/powerful...?

Was Inter's punishment not by the Italian FA?

If thats the case then it differs because its a different ruling body.

I agree though, at least it's a better punishment

would make sense if so, the Italians do seem to be some of the worst for taking a slack/dismissive attitude towards this kind of thing.

No worse than the FIA continuosly turning a blind eye to the blatant racism on display at Catalunya every year....

Yip, the Spanish aren't much better.......both countries do have a certain history afterall. The Germans seem to have done a much better job moving on......

Really don't t know why FIFA don't fine clubs relevant to their size and finances, similar to how as corporate fines are issued, that would make clubs take notice.

Nice blokes Germans, enjoyed my time in Cologne a few years ago.

Yeh, I've some good German mates. Always seem a nice 'head screwed on right' kinda lot.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:unsuprising.

Punish the individual who committed the illegal activity, don't punish the football club that fan supports.

Also I think that punishing the clubs rather than the fans is actually used by the police as an excuse to not chase that racist individual harder. The police seem to act in a way where they believe justice or punishment has been served when clubs are fined and thus don't really chase after the individual who shouted the racist abuse.

This isn't a case of a random racist in the street that happens to support an unaffiliated club and/or/maybe is wearing a club shirt.  Club's don't employ deaf and blind staff, they employ people with working eyes and ears so when fans stand their making nazi salutes, monkey chants and unfurling huge racist banners then the buck stops with the club for not taking immediate prevantative action.  If the club does nothing then implicitly it is condoning the actions and therefore deserves punishment.

If clubs keep get fined they will be motivated to find the culprits and ban them - thus preventing further fines.  Given the popularity of most clubs and waiting lists for tickets they won't be concerned by lost revenue as they'll easily backfill the gaps.

Lots of racist abuse is caused by away fans who are not at their club whilst making the monkey chants etc. so should tottenham for eg be fined if liverpool away supporters turned up and was racist? your above posts highlights it should.

And why would stewards start arresting people? They have the same legal power to arrest as you and me, they don't have ny special powers.

You say that if clubs keep getting fined they will be motivated to ban those racists. If they have the power to find the individual then the police working along side the club can use cctv etc to find those racists and arrest them.

Like I said it makes no sense to fine the club. The club is a business and just beccause some users of that business turn up to the premises and act in a disorderly manner does not mean the business should be liable.

The police should be the ones who track those individuals and take action.

who said anything about arresting people??

like the way you manage to point out that clubs are businesses but then completely fail to understand the point of fining them

suppose you're against JP Morgan being fined for the London whale incident as well then??

TopHat24/7 wrote:who said anything about arresting people??

like the way you manage to point out that clubs are businesses but then completely fail to understand the point of fining them

suppose you're against JP Morgan being fined for the London whale incident as well then??

Yes they are a business but the people committing the unlawful act are not employees of tht business, they are just visitors.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:unsuprising.

Punish the individual who committed the illegal activity, don't punish the football club that fan supports.

Also I think that punishing the clubs rather than the fans is actually used by the police as an excuse to not chase that racist individual harder. The police seem to act in a way where they believe justice or punishment has been served when clubs are fined and thus don't really chase after the individual who shouted the racist abuse.

This isn't a case of a random racist in the street that happens to support an unaffiliated club and/or/maybe is wearing a club shirt.  Club's don't employ deaf and blind staff, they employ people with working eyes and ears so when fans stand their making nazi salutes, monkey chants and unfurling huge racist banners then the buck stops with the club for not taking immediate prevantative action.  If the club does nothing then implicitly it is condoning the actions and therefore deserves punishment.

If clubs keep get fined they will be motivated to find the culprits and ban them - thus preventing further fines.  Given the popularity of most clubs and waiting lists for tickets they won't be concerned by lost revenue as they'll easily backfill the gaps.

Lots of racist abuse is caused by away fans who are not at their club whilst making the monkey chants etc. so should tottenham for eg be fined if liverpool away supporters turned up and was racist? your above posts highlights it should.

And why would stewards start arresting people? They have the same legal power to arrest as you and me, they don't have ny special powers.

You say that if clubs keep getting fined they will be motivated to ban those racists. If they have the power to find the individual then the police working along side the club can use cctv etc to find those racists and arrest them.

Like I said it makes no sense to fine the club. The club is a business and just beccause some users of that business turn up to the premises and act in a disorderly manner does not mean the business should be liable.

The police should be the ones who track those individuals and take action.

tophat wrote:who said anything about arresting people??

You said the buck stops with the club for not taking immediate preventative action. What action would that be if it is not arresting people or ejecting people?

Also based on what you said above that means home teams should be fined if away fans cause racist abuse. If liverpool fans are at white hart lane in london and make monkey noises and the tottenham stewards fail to stop them then tottenham should be fined for the liverpool fans abuse according to what you wrote.

Ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, escorting people out the stadium??

Stewards have all the power they need to do that and there are always police in attendence also to cover larger groups of trouble.

The club who's fans it is get the fine. Away fans can then be permanently banned from travelling to away matches again. If the home club does nothing about the away fans then ok, fine them also.

In your world nothing is ever done about racism because nobody is motivated or incentivised to do so. Which I'm sure you're quite happy about.

In my world it is eradicated from matchdays.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, escorting people out the stadium??

Stewards have all the power they need to do that and there are always police in attendence also to cover larger groups of trouble.

The club who's fans it is get the fine.  Away fans can then be permanently banned from travelling to away matches again.  If the home club does nothing about the away fans then ok, fine them also.

In your world nothing is ever done about racism because nobody is motivated or incentivised to do so.  Which I'm sure you're quite happy about.

In my world it is eradicated from matchdays.

yeh that is a great idea when you have 5,000 people all shouting racist abuse lets just let the stewards stroll into the stands and start throwing people out, that will in no way make things worse and start more violence  

There is nothing that a club can do during a game to stop racist abuse. Lazio for eg tried to stop their fans from making racist chants by having tannoy announcements asking the fans to stop, the players even asked the fans to stop but the fans continued. There is nothing else the club can do during the game. Your suggestion that stewards should start throwing people out is just plain stupid if I am being honest. It will just incite more hatrid, cause more violence and risk injuring more people.

Hence why I said police that are stationed get involved. Where there's a consistent/persistent problem then police attend on mass, paid for by the club, who remove people.

People get thrown out all the time at footy matches.

You're just trying to poke holes so that nothing is done about racism.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Hence why I said police that are stationed get involved.  Where there's a consistent/persistent problem then police attend on mass, paid for by the club, who remove people.

People get thrown out all the time at footy matches.

You're just trying to poke holes so that nothing is done about racism.

Your argument is suggesting that it is the job of the police to prevent racist abuse and not the club and thus the club should not be fined if the police fail to do their job and stop criminal behaviour at football matches such as racist abuse.

yep, keeping trawling out these excuses and generally weasling around the issue. You should apply for a job at the Spanish or Italian FA's, they'd love you, just their kind of guy.

TopHat24/7 wrote:yep, keeping trawling out these excuses and generally weasling around the issue.  You should apply for a job at the Spanish or Italian FA's, they'd love you, just their kind of guy.

So by trying to turn the debate into a petty slanging match you admit that clubs are powerless during games to prevent fans racist behaviour  

As I said previously, fining clubs for fans behaviour is not going to solve anything, hence why cubs have been fined for decades yet racism at clubs is still an ongoing thing.

As I said the only way to solve the issue is by criminalising the people who are causing the racist abuse, not criminalising the clubs who are just hosting a football game.

The police need to arrest these fans and issue them with bans after the game (not during it like you suggested because you will just cause a riot).

Nope.

The club is responsible for the conduct of its fans in the same way a business is responsible for the conduct of its employees.

In your world where the club is continually let off the hook, nobody ever takes responsibility and racism continues to prevail. Well done I'm sure that makes you happy.

Altenatively, clubs could be positively incentivsed and financially motivated to tackle the unpleasantry in their stands and actually do something about it.

Racism already is a criminal offence, is it not?

And I'm not criminalising the clubs, it's a civil issue.

Thought you were a lawyer??!

And I've seen a dozen West Ham fans dragged out of a United game for abuse, there wasn't even a hint of a riot. So you can stop trawling that rubbish excuse out too.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Nope.

The club is responsible for the conduct of its fans in the same way a business is responsible for the conduct of its employees.  

In your world where the club is continually let off the hook, nobody ever takes responsibility and racism continues to prevail.  Well done :clap:I'm sure that makes you happy.

Altenatively, clubs could be positively incentivsed and financially motivated to tackle the unpleasantry in their stands and actually do something about it.

Racism already is a criminal offence, is it not?

And I'm not criminalising the clubs, it's a civil issue.

Thought you were a lawyer??!

And I've seen a dozen West Ham fans dragged out of a United game for abuse, there wasn't even a hint of a riot. So you can stop trawling that rubbish excuse out too.

Why are you comparing fans who are merely consumers to employees of a company. A consumer and an employee are two very differet things.

Did you really study law??

If someone got hammered in a nightclub and then went outside and beat someone up, do you think the club would be without blame? How about if that person did it every week and the nightclub let them in every week? And told the bouncers not the kick them out when they were larey inside.

A venue bears some of the responsibility for the behaviour of its patrons. It is not a difficult point to comprehend. Without that simple concept it'd just turn into anarchy.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Did you really study law??

If someone got hammered in a nightclub and then went outside and beat someone up, do you think the club would be without blame? How about if that person did it every week and the nightclub let them in every week? And told the bouncers not the kick them out when they were larey inside.

A venue bears some of the responsibility for the behaviour of its patrons.  It is not a difficult point to comprehend.  Without that simple concept it'd just turn into anarchy.

I don't think this debate should turn into what is lawful or not. We are talking about football matches world wide and thus the laws of Italy will be very different to the laws of Argentina, Brazil or the UK etc.

This is not a debate about legality etc but a debate about who we think should be liable for racist abuse at matches. My argument is that it should be the individuals who commit the racist abuse and not the clubs. The only times the clubs should be liable is if they allow banned members to enter the stadium. Other than that it is the duty of the police to uphold the law and not the duty of Arsenal FC or AS Roma etc.

Ah, so having chucked law into the argument, you're now pulling it out again because you can't sustain a defence.

Hmmmm, I wonder what could offer consistent enforceable supra-national policy...........????? This is a toughy......

TopHat24/7 wrote:Ah, so having chucked law into the argument, you're now pulling it out again because you can't sustain a defence.  

Hmmmm, I wonder what could offer consistent enforceable supra-national policy...........????? This is a toughy......

What defence can't I sustain? So far my opinion has been that individuals are to blame for racism and not clubs. The only law I bought into this debate was that the police should arrest individuals who break the law when shouting racist abuse.

Your argument is a bit of a mess if I am being honest. You started off saying clubs should be fined, you then moved on to saying stewards should throw people out of games (which is not a practical thing to do when you have thousands of fans shouting racist abuse) and then you agreed with my argument that the police should arrest fans for breaking the law (but you said they should be arrested during the game and I said after the game).

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Ah, so having chucked law into the argument, you're now pulling it out again because you can't sustain a defence.  

Hmmmm, I wonder what could offer consistent enforceable supra-national policy...........????? This is a toughy......

What defence can't I sustain? So far my opinion has been that individuals are to blame for racism and not clubs. The only law I bought into this debate was that the police should arrest individuals who break the law when shouting racist abuse.

Your argument is a bit of a mess if I am being honest. You started off saying clubs should be fined, you then moved on to saying stewards should throw people out of games (which is not a practical thing to do when you have thousands of fans shouting racist abuse) and then you agreed with my argument that the police should arrest fans for breaking the law (but you said they should be arrested during the game and I said after the game).

You introduced law and criminality then backed out because you realised it was a rubbish argument as, as you say, laws very country to country.

1. Clubs should be fined. You've still failed to provide a sustainable riposte to this. Simple fact is if the clubs aren't incentivised to do anything, they won't. They are businesses, as you rightly point out.

2. Stewards should, where possible and safe to do so. Your practicality argument is a crock of poopie. As I said I've been there, in a heated atmosphere, when a group of fans have been removed. No riot. Same with individuals. Police are at most grounds anyway for crowd control so can assist in this process when needed for safety reasons.

3. Quote where I said police should arrest fans?

The only thing that's a mess is your defence and general disregard for the issue of racism at sports stadia.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Ah, so having chucked law into the argument, you're now pulling it out again because you can't sustain a defence.  

Hmmmm, I wonder what could offer consistent enforceable supra-national policy...........????? This is a toughy......

What defence can't I sustain? So far my opinion has been that individuals are to blame for racism and not clubs. The only law I bought into this debate was that the police should arrest individuals who break the law when shouting racist abuse.

Your argument is a bit of a mess if I am being honest. You started off saying clubs should be fined, you then moved on to saying stewards should throw people out of games (which is not a practical thing to do when you have thousands of fans shouting racist abuse) and then you agreed with my argument that the police should arrest fans for breaking the law (but you said they should be arrested during the game and I said after the game).

You introduced law and criminality then backed out because you realised it was a rubbish argument as, as you say, laws very country to country.

1. Clubs should be fined.  You've still failed to provide a sustainable riposte to this.  Simple fact is if the clubs aren't incentivised to do anything, they won't.  They are businesses, as you rightly point out.

2. Stewards should, where possible and safe to do so. Your practicality argument is a crock of poopie.  As I said I've been there, in a heated atmosphere, when a group of fans have been removed. No riot. Same with individuals.  Police are at most grounds anyway for crowd control so can assist in this process when needed for safety reasons.

3. Quote where I said police should arrest fans?

The only thing that's a mess is your defence and general disregard for the issue of racism at sports stadia.

No offence but you are talking nonsense. If there is a group of 5 fans only making racist chants or 1 fan chucking a banana skin then yes eject them. But we are talking about thousands of fans in Italy or turkey all chanting together. It would be impossible to eject them without causing a riot.

Also tophat debte the issue dont start a petty slanging match. We have different views on how racism should be tackled in sport so no need for the petty name calling.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Ah, so having chucked law into the argument, you're now pulling it out again because you can't sustain a defence.  

Hmmmm, I wonder what could offer consistent enforceable supra-national policy...........????? This is a toughy......

What defence can't I sustain? So far my opinion has been that individuals are to blame for racism and not clubs. The only law I bought into this debate was that the police should arrest individuals who break the law when shouting racist abuse.

Your argument is a bit of a mess if I am being honest. You started off saying clubs should be fined, you then moved on to saying stewards should throw people out of games (which is not a practical thing to do when you have thousands of fans shouting racist abuse) and then you agreed with my argument that the police should arrest fans for breaking the law (but you said they should be arrested during the game and I said after the game).

You introduced law and criminality then backed out because you realised it was a rubbish argument as, as you say, laws very country to country.

1. Clubs should be fined.  You've still failed to provide a sustainable riposte to this.  Simple fact is if the clubs aren't incentivised to do anything, they won't.  They are businesses, as you rightly point out.

2. Stewards should, where possible and safe to do so. Your practicality argument is a crock of poopie.  As I said I've been there, in a heated atmosphere, when a group of fans have been removed. No riot. Same with individuals.  Police are at most grounds anyway for crowd control so can assist in this process when needed for safety reasons.

3. Quote where I said police should arrest fans?

The only thing that's a mess is your defence and general disregard for the issue of racism at sports stadia.

I clearly have provided my view as to why individuals and not the club should be fined, you just disagree but that does not mean i failed to provide a sustainable argument.

Ok, maybe I should've worded it as a 'sustainable solution' then. As what you're saying is never going to do anything and never going to tackle the problem. It's a laissez-faire attitude and solution and totally redundant.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Ok, maybe I should've worded it as a 'sustainable solution' then.  As what you're saying is never going to do anything and never going to tackle the problem.  It's a laissez-faire attitude and solution and totally redundant.

We have different views on the matter as to how to handle racism at stadiums.

Obviously if fifa want to tackle racism and are serious then they should be investing heavily in projects which educate fans about the effects of racism.

Most of these 'fans' clearly did nothing with 15 years of free state education 35 hours a week. Not sure how Fifa can better that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24206296

According to that link, AC Milan have been ordered to close one of their stands for their next home match due to racist chanting. How can you have racist chanting from fans when at least one player, probably a few more, of AC Milan's is black?

Clearly, the answer is that they are not football fans and just scum of the lowest order. Why, oh why does football attract the lowest common denominator? The lot of them should be put down, as they're clearly a waste of oxygen and living space.