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Do the November International Games Carry A Bit More Bite This Year?

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Dontheman
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Thu 19 Sep - 23:03

With the Lions tour this year and the Top 14 club clashes with the international test series in NZ, we didn't get an indication of where the top teams stand as the June tests were more of a developmental tour for the NH sides and apart from Australia, who appear to have regressed significantly this year, we didn't get an idea of where SA and NZ stood and to be honest we're still not entirely sure of where each team is at.

The way I see it, there are at least two major challenges for any side this November. In terms of RWC preparation it's going to be vital to get a psychological edge. You only have to look at Australia's challenges against Wales and England and then translate that into pool play for the coming World Cup and you're going to be sure that all those teams will be doing their best to win those games and send out their message of intent.

NZ plays Japan with a developmental side then plays France, England and Ireland. If that isn't preparation for their World Cup campaign given the likely quarter final of either France or Ireland then I don't know what is. This RC has a familiar feel about it given last year's games and if NZ and SA get a good win in their next game, then it makes for a similar show down to last year with the exception of Australia looking a noticeable step down on performance.

To me it's not so much about the SH match ups. I think NZ would recognise that SA is their main threat in the SH at the moment and irrespective of the result at Ellis Park or the extra Bledisloe later in Dunedin, nothing will change that thinking this year. It is more how they respond in the November tests. England's emphatic victory last year will have an effect on all the teams. It caused a few trembles to the AB foundations and another loss might send a few more chunks falling to the ground. Ireland has a NZ coach who wants to prove himself and what better way than to play NZ.

SA have been building up momentum in the NH in recent times and will look to further establish their dominance. Who will be the challengers in the North? Ireland have a series in SA coming up and have Samoa, Australia and NZ. Scotland have Japan then face Australia and SA. The games seem to be spread nice and evenly.

These fixtures are at the start of the NH season and the close of the SH season but two years out from the World Cup and is it just me or do these match ups carry extra meaning this time round? Obviously the NH always want to win as many games as possible against the SH touring teams and the reverse applies as well. But something tells me whoever can gain an advantage this time round will gain benefits from that into the leadup for 2015. That is not to say that things can't be turned around or mistakes can't be rectified but I have a gut feeling that we're in for some heated rugby battles this November.

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Post by GunsGerms Fri 20 Sep - 1:54

I like your post because anything that plays up the Nov tests and gets the juices flowing is good. However, in terms of psychological advantage I dont think these tests will be too significant come 2015. Its probably just a little early for that.

In 2005 SA lost to France in Nov
In 2006 SA got hammered by Ireland in Nov and finished last in the Tri nations.
In 2007 the Boks again finish last in the Tri Nations but go on to win the RWC.

What this tells me is for some teams it is about peaking at the right time. Possibly now is the time for experimentation more than anything else.

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Post by Notch Fri 20 Sep - 1:57

If it was about gaining a psychological advantage with good form in the two years preceding the tournament, New Zealand would have more than two World Cups no?

Every time they come in as the form side and hot favourites, and if anything they've looked to be at a disadvantage over the years with the pressure that puts on their shoulders.
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Post by Notch Fri 20 Sep - 1:58

World Cup is the World Cup- once you hit the quarter-finals all bets are off.
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Post by Hound of Harrow Fri 20 Sep - 2:53

This years games are not really significant, but there is always 'bite'. Much has been written about NZ wanting revenge over England, but that's just fan talk. NZ wulll prepare for that game much like any other.

There is likely to be significant changes in the England, Irish, Scottish and French teams come 2015 imo.



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Post by whocares Fri 20 Sep - 3:01

France will always be better prepared for a RWC than for any test or 6N game as they get to spend one month together before as opposed to a week max. Expect France to win against Tonga in november and that's it. 3 days training camps arent enough to improve.

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Post by GunsGerms Fri 20 Sep - 3:06

The headline reminds me of the guy in rugby league who recently got a ban for biting another player on the Winkle.

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Post by Taylorman Fri 20 Sep - 3:18

Hound of Harrow wrote:This years games are not really significant, but there is always 'bite'. Much has been written about NZ wanting revenge over England, but that's just fan talk. NZ wulll prepare for that game much like any other.

There is likely to be significant changes in the England, Irish, Scottish and French teams come 2015 imo.


Hansens primary goal, other than winning them all, will be to beat England. Why? Because theyre the only side to beat his side as main coach and since the world cup. It is a worthwhile goal to have, but yes preparation will be the same. Its not just a fan thing. Kapo o pango will come out for this one and England will need to be ready for it thats for sure.

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Post by kingraf Fri 20 Sep - 3:30

2007 The Boks were a tad fortunate, as the draw opened up like the Red Sea. Even then we still nearly lost to Tonga of all people. I agree, though, come QF, bets are off, though I would be disapointed if we lost to a NH team in Nov, and moreso if one knocks us out. No offence to NH, but thats how South Africans generally see it.
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Post by Casartelli Fri 20 Sep - 3:42

Taylorman wrote:
Hound of Harrow wrote:This years games are not really significant, but there is always 'bite'. Much has been written about NZ wanting revenge over England, but that's just fan talk. NZ wulll prepare for that game much like any other.

There is likely to be significant changes in the England, Irish, Scottish and French teams come 2015 imo.


Hansens primary goal, other than winning them all, will be to beat England. Why? Because theyre the only side to beat his side as main coach and since the world cup. It is a worthwhile goal to have, but yes preparation will be the same. Its not just a fan thing. Kapo o pango will come out for this one and England will need to be ready for it thats for sure.
I don't think they'll be bothered by it, tbh.  It's been around a while now, since its debut at Carisbrook in 2005 (I was there - just sayin') and England will have seen it loads of times on video.  It's lost much of its impact, despite the throat slitting stuff and never matched the pure theatre of the Ka Mate haka.

Also, it's Kapa o Pango.

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Post by Taylorman Fri 20 Sep - 4:27

Casartelli wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Hound of Harrow wrote:This years games are not really significant, but there is always 'bite'. Much has been written about NZ wanting revenge over England, but that's just fan talk. NZ wulll prepare for that game much like any other.

There is likely to be significant changes in the England, Irish, Scottish and French teams come 2015 imo.


Hansens primary goal, other than winning them all, will be to beat England. Why? Because theyre the only side to beat his side as main coach and since the world cup. It is a worthwhile goal to have, but yes preparation will be the same. Its not just a fan thing. Kapo o pango will come out for this one and England will need to be ready for it thats for sure.
I don't think they'll be bothered by it, tbh.  It's been around a while now, since its debut at Carisbrook in 2005 (I was there - just sayin') and England will have seen it loads of times on video.  It's lost much of its impact, despite the throat slitting stuff and never matched the pure theatre of the Ka Mate haka.

Also, it's Kapa o Pango.
Its not about the impact from the AB point of view. Its about the respect for the side and the specific importance of the particular match. Its an internal reasoning. How its perceived outwardly is not the sides concern. They do what they do.

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Post by Casartelli Fri 20 Sep - 5:28

Taylorman wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Hound of Harrow wrote:This years games are not really significant, but there is always 'bite'. Much has been written about NZ wanting revenge over England, but that's just fan talk. NZ wulll prepare for that game much like any other.

There is likely to be significant changes in the England, Irish, Scottish and French teams come 2015 imo.


Hansens primary goal, other than winning them all, will be to beat England. Why? Because theyre the only side to beat his side as main coach and since the world cup. It is a worthwhile goal to have, but yes preparation will be the same. Its not just a fan thing. Kapo o pango will come out for this one and England will need to be ready for it thats for sure.
I don't think they'll be bothered by it, tbh.  It's been around a while now, since its debut at Carisbrook in 2005 (I was there - just sayin') and England will have seen it loads of times on video.  It's lost much of its impact, despite the throat slitting stuff and never matched the pure theatre of the Ka Mate haka.

Also, it's Kapa o Pango.
Its not about the impact from the AB point of view. Its about the respect for the side and the specific importance of the particular match. Its an internal reasoning. How its perceived outwardly is not the sides concern. They do what they do.
Thanks for clearing that up.

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Post by Feckless Rogue Fri 20 Sep - 7:08

But us Europeans will be exhausted. Or is it rusty? I can't remember which one we use for the AI's.
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Post by The Great Aukster Fri 20 Sep - 7:31

Taylorman wrote:Its not about the impact from the AB point of view. Its about the respect for the side and the specific importance of the particular match. Its an internal reasoning. How its perceived outwardly is not the sides concern. They do what they do.
It's good to hear a Kiwi admitting that the ABs don't respect every side. How long will the IRB allow the disrespectful Ka Mate to continue?

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Post by Biltong Fri 20 Sep - 7:36

The Great Aukster wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Its not about the impact from the AB point of view. Its about the respect for the side and the specific importance of the particular match. Its an internal reasoning. How its perceived outwardly is not the sides concern. They do what they do.
It's good to hear a Kiwi admitting that the ABs don't respect every side. How long will the IRB allow the disrespectful Ka Mate to continue?
i very much doubt you will find any player who believes the Haka is disrespectful.

In fact I would hazard a guess that it is an honour and a highlight in their careers to experience the Haka, no matter which one.
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Post by blackcanelion Fri 20 Sep - 9:25

Biltong wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Its not about the impact from the AB point of view. Its about the respect for the side and the specific importance of the particular match. Its an internal reasoning. How its perceived outwardly is not the sides concern. They do what they do.
It's good to hear a Kiwi admitting that the ABs don't respect every side. How long will the IRB allow the disrespectful Ka Mate to continue?
i very much doubt you will find any player who believes the Haka is disrespectful.

In fact I would hazard a guess that it is an honour and a highlight in their careers to experience the Haka, no matter which one.
Besides every time the AB's have tried to stop doing the haka, the pressure comes on from European nations for them to keep doing it.

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Post by Taylorman Fri 20 Sep - 9:51

Some think the two haka thing is contrite- that a 'tier of disrespect exists', and logically it could be seen that way whereas it can also be seen as a tier of respect, where some occasions are deemed more respectful than others for any number of specific reasons- I guess its a glass half empty or full approach as to how you take it.

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Post by Hound of Harrow Fri 20 Sep - 10:02

Taylorman wrote:
Hound of Harrow wrote:This years games are not really significant, but there is always 'bite'. Much has been written about NZ wanting revenge over England, but that's just fan talk. NZ wulll prepare for that game much like any other.

There is likely to be significant changes in the England, Irish, Scottish and French teams come 2015 imo.


Hansens primary goal, other than winning them all, will be to beat England. Why? Because theyre the only side to beat his side as main coach and since the world cup. It is a worthwhile goal to have, but yes preparation will be the same. Its not just a fan thing. Kapo o pango will come out for this one and England will need to be ready for it thats for sure.
You don't win a game by performing a war dance beforehand thumbsup

I also expect England to recognise what is likely to come at them.

They should have that well and truly ingrained after Cardiff. I will be disappointed if they haven't learned from that.

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Post by Guest Fri 20 Sep - 11:00

No, but it's the underling sentiment that will win us the game. I wonder how many games the ABs have lost when we've performed Kapa o Pango? There must be a couple.

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Post by Hound of Harrow Fri 20 Sep - 11:14

I don't really care what NZ do before their games, ebop. Once the whistle goes it is one team of rugby players against another. I expect England to win every game they play; much like you guys.

I don't offer up excuses when we lose or criticise refs. The better team has more points on the board at the end of the game.

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Post by Guest Fri 20 Sep - 11:25

For sure hound

I was alluding to the intensity of the prep that went in prior to a game where Kapa o Pango was performed, which is likely to be greater despite what was said above by someone else.

Hence a game where KoP was performed is likely to be treated as if it was a final by the ABs. If a team beats us when KoP was performed then that means a lot to me because it show's that our best was not enough.

That's why I asked how many games we've lost when we've done KoP. I'm there are some, but the % will be lower I'm thinking.

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Post by Hound of Harrow Fri 20 Sep - 12:15

I get that 'Kapa' is more of a challenge from the NZ pov. I just don't see it as important in the context of the mindset of your opposition. If they are prepared to let a pre-game ritual get to them, that's their problem.

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Post by Guest Fri 20 Sep - 12:46

Fair dues, I understand what your saying. I highly doubt it gets to opposition players. If anything, you see the smiles get wider and a greater number of sneers on opposition faces when KoP is done. That's great and it's what you hope to see. It adds feeling and it must hype the opposition up as much as it does the ABs. Good luck, that's all I'm saying.

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Post by Guest Fri 20 Sep - 15:54

Actually, anyone recall the smile on Jannie du Plessis during the haka in the weekend? He was cracking jokes in his head. How'd the game turn out for him?

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Post by Biltong Fri 20 Sep - 16:46

ebop wrote:Actually, anyone recall the smile on Jannie du Plessis during the haka in the weekend? He was cracking jokes in his head. How'd the game turn out for him?
Or maybe he just enjoyed it?
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Post by Guest Fri 20 Sep - 17:51

Maybe biltong, the haka is hilarious after all Smile

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 20 Sep - 18:22

It didn't do much good last year ebop. I wonder if they did Ka Mate this year whether anything would be the reaction.

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Post by thomh Fri 20 Sep - 19:01

Taylorman

NZ did the Kapa O Pango at Twickenham last year anyway, so surely a repeat wouldn't be psychologically significant?

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Post by Taylorman Sat 21 Sep - 5:01

thomh it seems its misunderstood. Its not about how or what the other side perceives it to be. Its not about trying to get one over the other side despite the impression it sends. the haka is about identity. Its saying this is who we are, we respect who you are. In NZ its typically responded to with an equally resounding haka and that done the scene is set and everyone gets on with it, the formalities having been dealt with.
Understandably a non maori view of the haka brings about a plethora of reactions usually based on the receivers own background, bring up, cultural and social values.

Bringing Kapo in again certainly is psychologically significant for the AB side. How its perceived by the other side is irrelevant in the same way that england might have a different way of motivating their side when facing a side like Italy as opposed to say Wales.

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Post by Hood83 Sat 21 Sep - 5:48

I like the Haka, whatever form, I really like it. But I'd rather it was kept exclusively to NZ home games or as an alternative to the anthem. I don't think it has any impact or anything, it's not an excuse thing, just think if it's our patch you get one anthem like us. On your turf, it's your call is how I see it.

Of course, it seems most of us would ask you to do it here anyway for the thrill and theatre of it, I know i'm in the minority. Anyway, Haka or not, I expect you'll hump us. I am NOT confident.

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Post by Taylorman Sat 21 Sep - 6:45

yeah sometimes the haka looks out of place overseas. Its only fully understood by other performers of it. There are commercial aspects to the NZ one and I can see it being removed by some countries if NZ were to slip down the rankings. Its synonymous with winning these days and if we were to start losing it would naturally become synonymous with that, and probably laughed at, downgraded effectively.

For us the England game is the obvious priority but so also is the Schmidt coached Irish side. Im sure he would like nothing more than to coach the first winning side. He'll also do well in debunking the AB myth with his side so that is a potential loss for us there.

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Sat 21 Sep - 7:07

The equivalents of Fiji, Tonga and Manu Samoa don't seem to attract the same criticism and they get to perform their equivalent of the haka before every game. If NZ didn't do it they'd be criticized if it were up to them. Like what happened in Wales.

I get the argument though that this cultural aspect should be imposed on those who have no affinity to or understanding of it. Sometimes i think NZ expects too much outside of NZ with respect to how teams approach the haka. But I think it's become a way of promoting rugby for any side and the IRB won't touch it. But often their attempts to protect it have been counterproductive.

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Post by Taylorman Sat 21 Sep - 7:31

What it does for me is sets the scene. It differentiates AB matches from all others, gets you in the mood, for me far more than the anthems because it comes from the voices, faces and hearts of the team itself, not some hired singer available on the day from who knows where.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat 21 Sep - 8:09

NZ should abandon the tedious anthem and just use the Haka.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat 21 Sep - 8:10

Also need to ditch the union jack from the flag. The days of the commonwealth are long departed.

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Post by Hood83 Sat 21 Sep - 19:45

Makes sense GE, that would be my preference for when you visit Twickenham. Although given your name is Glorious Empire...? I guess there are just too many old imperialists like yourself clinging to past 'glories'.


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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat 21 Sep - 19:49

Well it's an ironic Star Wars reference.

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Post by rainbow-warrior Sat 21 Sep - 20:16

Haka should remain on the shores on NZ. It's odd actually. people of GG attitude would generally dislike the people who usually do the Haka.

Apart from the AB's it is done by schoolboys.

In these days of professionalism, dances of any sort should be discourgaed before kick off, it can be done in the shed before kick off if they want to do it. It has already been proven that the AB's do it for themselves and not as a challenge to the other team when they did it all alone in their changing room before the Welsh game after sulking.
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Post by kingjohn7 Sat 21 Sep - 20:20

GloriousEmpire wrote:Also need to ditch the union jack from the flag. The days of the commonwealth are long departed.
That would be one crap flag.

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Post by Cyril Sat 21 Sep - 20:54

kingjohn7 wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Also need to ditch the union jack from the flag. The days of the commonwealth are long departed.
That would be one crap flag.
Laugh random stars on a blue duvet.


Last edited by Cyril on Sat 21 Sep - 20:55; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Cyril Sat 21 Sep - 20:55

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well it's an ironic Star Wars reference.
Did it become that when you stopped being 'English'?

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat 21 Sep - 21:13

Do the November International Games Carry A Bit More Bite This Year? Imagejpeg
Nothing boring about that eh-ho

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Post by Cyril Sat 21 Sep - 21:22

Someone doesn't know how to put images up properly. Do you need some help?

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat 21 Sep - 21:26

"Put images up"? no thanks, you've revealed but your splendid use of technical terminology that anything you say is just going to be way over my head.

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Post by Cyril Sat 21 Sep - 21:28

I was using 'computers for dummies' language. I thought you might be ok with that. Maybe I aimed too high again.

Sorry chum Smile

Maybe you should check the 'help' on this site if you're still confused. It's not that tricky really. I know that some people aren't that great with computers.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat 21 Sep - 21:33

Looks fine to me Cyril, is it causing issues on your dial up Internet access on your 286?

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Post by rainbow-warrior Sat 21 Sep - 21:40

GloriousEmpire wrote:Looks fine to me Cyril, is it causing issues on your dial up Internet access on your 286?
From a kiwi where dial up still goes on hahahaha even the broadband compared with 3 world countries is slow:picard: 
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Post by Cyril Sat 21 Sep - 21:46

GloriousEmpire wrote:Looks fine to me Cyril, is it causing issues on your dial up Internet access on your 286?
Tried it in Firefox, Chrome and IE. Nope, not showing.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat 21 Sep - 22:21

It's working fine in safari, iOS7. 

Chrome, Linux.

I don't have any windows crap so perhaps it's a Microsoft issue.

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Post by Hood83 Sat 21 Sep - 22:59

GloriousEmpire wrote:It's working fine in safari, iOS7. 

Chrome, Linux.

I don't have any windows crap so perhaps it's a Microsoft issue.
Not working on my Mac. I suppose the main thing is it shows up on your computer, rather than all the computers of those you posted to intending them to see it. Right?

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