Round 3 Stats for the Pro12 and Aviva Prem

With round 3 upon us I thought I would take a moment to look at the team line ups in both leagues to throw out some interesting data.


International Player in Starting 15's International Player on the Bench Total Internationals


Pro 12 109 33 142

Aviva Premiership 85 30 115




Looking closer at the stats regarding the starting line ups Saracens (in the number one spot) start with 13 internationals and 5 on the bench. However no other Aviva Premiership side is starting with 10 internationals or more. By contrast in the Pro 12 - Treviso, Glasgow, Ospreys, Munster, Edinburgh & Blues all have 10 or more.


It makes for interesting reading when considering the Pro 12 is usually accused of resting players, when it looks like the Aviva seem to also rest players but with are less pulled up on it. Granted a lot of key players are still due to come back for the provincial & regional sides but there is definitely a misconception currently regarding the Pro 12. What are your views?

Also, largest attendance in Europe last week as pointed out by Skysports was Leinster v Ospreys.

Well at least Flood was rested by an Ulsterman. Doesn't that affect the stats?

Scrumdown wrote:Also, largest attendance in Europe last week as pointed out by Skysports was Leinster v Ospreys.

Blimey. Have they extended the Showground?

The EPS demands mandatory rest weeks, these have little effect as there are so few of them but one is in affect this weekend.

I'd be interested to se the comparative for the first two weekends.

Is that internationals of the countries in question eg Aviva = English internationals or internationals from any country?

I'm not sure the comparison between a league containing one country and a league with multiple countries works for this?

Also wouldn't the timing be relevant eg leading up to HC or internationals rather than the start of the season?

Its internationals from any country. So for the Aviva Premiership that included all Northern Hemisphere capped players including all the Southern Hemisphere Imports.

I do think it works because the principal remains the same, as essentially the Premiership imports enough players of international quality.

My point Heaf is that the Pro 12 gets slammed for resting its superstars from league duty. One look at the players rested this weekend in the Aviva tells you they do exactly the same. It varies from team to team of course but what is really noticeable within the stats is how many Aviva Teams purposely ignore international signings. I'm assuming this is so they can play 22 games in the league but I'm not certain this creates a better standard of league or player. Granted Connacht & Dragons do this as well but there are more teams in the Premiership doing this with Worcester, Gloucester, Newcastle, Sale, London Irish, Exeter all not brimming with a high standard of player.

In my eyes this creates a massive void between the best in the league and the worst. The Pro 12 also has a gap but there are less under it than currently over it. Therefore it creates for a more competitive league. My stats appear to be backed up when you consider the amount of bonus point victories in the Premiership compared to the Rabbo. Some might look at this and argue the attacking teams are playing outstanding but in my views they are playing lesser opposition. I suppose we will see a bit more of the calibre of the English top sides when they face the Pro 12 sides in the HC.

The term 'International' can be a bit of a twisted bit.

Having played for (any) country once as a replacement for one minute equates them to any of the gods of the game. Plus it is not time enveloped. In so many ways it's just a load of meaningless guff.

Comparison of sides playing 'internationals' capped in the past twelve months for their domestic league might be a more appropriate measure.

By my reckoning, Zebre have 9 internationals starting and 4 on the bench tonight. Exeter have 4 starting (none of them current) and none on the bench tomorrow. I know which one I'd have my money on in a game between them, home or away, although the odds wouldn't be very good.

Wouldn't quality allied to quantity be a better barometer than quantity alone, and losing bonus points a better indication of competitiveness than try bonus points?

Although the resting thing is largely nonsense (certainly outside of union on forced resting) picking on one weekend to back up a point is also nonsense. It just doesn't mean anything real.

Also who counts as an international? Current? Capped? And an international player isn't necessarily 1st choice which is the issue.

Scrumdown wrote:Also, largest attendance in Europe last week as pointed out by Skysports was Leinster v Ospreys.

And it one of the two games that have had more than 10000 in the Pro12 (5 in Jeff). Also Leicester got 20000 at their home game to Worcester. Compared with Leinster's 17000 against Ospreys.

Average attendance to Pro12 has been about 6000. Jeff is about 10000 (discounting twickenham games so it will be a bit lower as they don't average 10000).

Any more stats we can twist?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:By my reckoning, Zebre have 9 internationals starting and 4 on the bench tonight. Exeter have 4 starting (none of them current) and none on the bench tomorrow. I know which one I'd have my money on in a game between them, home or away, although the odds wouldn't be very good.

Wouldn't quality allied to quantity be a better barometer than quantity alone, and losing bonus points a better indication of competitiveness than try bonus points?

Granted the argument you make here is a good one. Yes I agree there is a bit of a gap with Italian internationals but to say Exeter would beat say Zebre easily is probably going a bit far (especially given they just won at the Blues and I wouldn't bank on Exeter beating the Blues away). The Italians are where our Welsh Regions where at their inception. The Irish where giving us a hell of a beating in the early years of regional rugby but eventually the gap was closed. Eventually the Italians will also close the gap due to the nature of the opposition they will be facing. Treviso are already a major threat at home and eventually the next generation of Italians will be playing rugby at a higher standard. It does take time though but potentially this is a league that will continue to grow in its competitive nature. I remember when Scottish sides where not taken seriously in the league and now (in Glasgow) they are major contenders. Given the fact the resources are not to thinly spread amongst their sides it means their players will grow at a faster rate due to the opposition they are facing.

Granted this is all subject to France not buying all our best players.

HammerofThunor wrote:Although the resting thing is largely nonsense (certainly outside of union on forced resting) picking on one weekend to back up a point is also nonsense. It just doesn't mean anything real.

Also who counts as an international? Current? Capped? And an international player isn't necessarily 1st choice which is the issue.

I appreciate the sentiment here but are you saying for example a once capped All Black isn't better than a non capped New Zealander? They tend to give out their caps rather miserly and when you consider someone like Regan King who only got capped once would have probably got 70 odd caps for England.

My point is that while there is a disparity between national sides (in terms of quality), I wouldn't necessarily start believing that a team of non capped players is better than a team of capped internationals. That's why generally both the Pro12 and Aviva Premiership are won by sides packed with them.

My general point within both leagues is that there seem to be a total different aspect on development which will of course affect standards of play in a league. Take Dragons tonight for example, plenty of young hopefuls with no shortage of skill on show. A team clearly in a early development cycle (which they can afford as there is no relegation). This takes away the short term pressure and allows them to develop a plan for developing players.

Newcastle by contrast have a dozen ex Scottish players on their hands with a core group of older players. The emphasis on development is just not there. Its all about survival for the next season. There are at least a handful of sides you could argue have the exact same mantra in the Aviva. The owners want to see their clubs stay in the Premiership even if that means signing players outside of a RFU development pathway or the general standard of play in the league.

BTW this isn't me saying one league is better than the other but from what I can see there is no doubting the different focuses of each league and this also impacts on player development. Essentially there will always be a handful of clubs who will opt to bring in players from outside of the England development pathways which is a shame as there are plenty of good young players in England who will probably not develop to the standard they should by the time they eventually manage to compete at senior level partly because sides opt to bring in already proven players.

HammerofThunor wrote:Although the resting thing is largely nonsense (certainly outside of union on forced resting) picking on one weekend to back up a point is also nonsense. It just doesn't mean anything real.

Also who counts as an international? Current? Capped? And an international player isn't necessarily 1st choice which is the issue.

Fair point - I should compare the opening 3 weeks to make a better comparison. In fairness it was just because I happen to have the stats on hand.

However, I'm just pointing out that this resting nonsense that is levelled at the Pro 12 is nonsense as the Aviva also rests its players and the recent argument on that front from the PRL is not really valid.

I also don't like to compare the leagues because to be honest they are totally different animals. The Pro 12 is essentially a provincial league where as the Aviva is a Club based league. One involves the pooling of playing talent, the other a vibrant transfer market. The Pro 12 is all about development pathways with many of its players going on to play regular international rugby. By contrast the Aviva will only have a small % of its player base actually playing regular international rugby.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:By my reckoning, Zebre have 9 internationals starting and 4 on the bench tonight. Exeter have 4 starting (none of them current) and none on the bench tomorrow. I know which one I'd have my money on in a game between them, home or away, although the odds wouldn't be very good.

Wouldn't quality allied to quantity be a better barometer than quantity alone, and losing bonus points a better indication of competitiveness than try bonus points?

Granted the argument you make here is a good one.  Yes I agree there is a bit of a gap with Italian internationals but to say Exeter would beat say Zebre easily is probably going a bit far (especially given they just won at the Blues and I wouldn't bank on Exeter beating the Blues away).  The Italians are where our Welsh Regions where at their inception.  The Irish where giving us a hell of a beating in the early years of regional rugby but eventually the gap was closed.  Eventually the Italians will also close the gap due to the nature of the opposition they will be facing.  Treviso are already a major threat at home and eventually the next generation of Italians will be playing rugby at a higher standard.  It does take time though but potentially this is a league that will continue to grow in its competitive nature.  I remember when Scottish sides where not taken seriously in the league and now (in Glasgow) they are major contenders.  Given the fact the resources are not to thinly spread amongst their sides it means their players will grow at a faster rate due to the opposition they are facing.

Granted this is all subject to France not buying all our best players.

I'd have a little flutter on Cardiff v Exe at 2/5 and a serious bet at anywhere near evens. We'll see what the bookies say in a few weeks.

Apart from that, you're now talking about the potential of Pro12 teams not the present of this particular weekend. Pro12, like AP and T14, reflect the nature of sporting contests - some teams improve, some stay the same, some fall back. Zebre clearly have been the rod with which to beat Pro12's back, but apart from them (and possibly including them now), there's little to choose between the 2 leagues, either in quality or style of play, over the whole season.

That's my opinion anyway, and the quantity of internationals lacks relevance - the number of top rank internationals still being rested in Pro12 is, however, relevant. Check the Glasgow Leinster thread for the opinion of Leinster fans. All teams rotate players, some more than others, but the influence of Union's player management hits Pro12 teams more than AP.

1 Glasgow 3 3 0 0 47 33 0 12
2 Munster 3 2 0 1 96 73 2 10
3 NG Dragons 3 2 0 1 51 40 1 9
4 Leinster 3 1 1 1 77 60 2 8
5 Ospreys 2 1 1 0 53 48 0 6
6 Cardiff Blues 3 1 0 2 61 62 2 6
7 Treviso 3 1 0 2 58 69 1 5
8 Scarlets 3 1 0 2 61 75 1 5
9 Connacht 2 1 0 1 35 37 0 4
10 Edinburgh 2 1 0 1 39 47 0 4
11 Zebre 3 1 0 2 67 93 0 4
12 Ulster 2 0 0 2 20 28 2 2