Merged thread euro competition

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there's a meeting today of two mighty behemoths of the English game meet to (presumably) find a common position on the wreckage of the negotiations on the future of European competition.

It will be interesting if they come to any clear (I doubt that it will be satisfactory) conclusion.

This, remember, is a discussion between two spectacularly incompetent bodies which have presided over farcical maladministration over the past decade.

The RFU, standard bearers of the ideals and ethos of the famed 57 Old Farts, have stumbled and staggered their way 'forward' since the dawn of professionalism.
vs
The PRL who have never managed to provide a satisfactory cohesive, decision which actually improves the English game with a satisfactory watertight, long term 'what if?' structured set of rules. They in their short history have represented solely the elite game through a seemingly never-ending stream of short-term, knee-jerk decisions which sow the quick-germinating seeds of insoluble and self-contradictory positions for the future. From its inception it has been nothing less than a disaster from the issue of voting shares, through parachute payments to the fundamental process of promotion/relegation itself. Bumbling incompetents.

Unfortunately they (the PRL) have the players and therefore all the cards over the RFU exactly two years before the 2015 RWC starts on English soil.

Grim and depressing innit? Especially for non-combatants.

[Pot Hale]

It does kinda put paid to this notion peddled by PRL that the PRO 12 unions permanently outvote them, given that actually they have more votes than any of those individual unions allocation.

[Notch]

So this stuff about them getting permanently outvoted is just media spin? Figures.

Permanently outvoted... when you can't even persuade your own union to go along with you!  

[stub]

Yes, I didn't realise that either. I suppose it shows that PRL and LNR have an agenda historically not supported by their unions.

[HammerofThunor]

The voting rights stuff kicked off when the FFR pulled the votes to get Lux in. Someone is always going to have more votes. There doesn't need to have some sort of veto type thing for certain decisions.

[Notch]

That was a dodgy move by the FFR to be fair. And the way these 'negotiations' have gone wouldn't be a great advert for the job he's doing right now either  

[HammerofThunor]

We don't know enough about what's going on on the inside to say for sure but he has something of the McCaffery about him.

I can't help but think a few changes here and there would have stopped all this years ago. For example the LNR and PRL having 4 of the 5 votes on everything. That would quite give the 'clubs' LNR, PRL and RRW half the votes.

[stub]

Yes Hammer I agree and I think it's a shame it's come to this. The optimist in me still thinks that there could be some kind of last minute compromise which allows a tweaked ERC to continue to function. However I am starting to think that this outcome looks increasingly unlikely.

[Notch]

It just got interesting; FFR have released a statement that directly opposes this new Cup.

http://www.newspostleader.co.uk/sport/national-sport/ffr-on-collision-course-over-split-1-6075265

"No meeting or international competition involving French clubs can be organised outside the framework of the FFR and without its prior agreement.

"The FFR has always been and will remain a major player in the European cups organised by ERC and backs proposals to permit the continuity and development of these.

"If the FFR is in favour of an improvement in the European cups, their organisation can only be envisaged under the edict of the European federations which make up ERC.

"The statement released by the clubs appears therefore irrelevant and inappropriate."

You have to say thats a pretty strong rebuke to the LNR. With the way McCaffrey has been doing his business and negotiating/brow-beating in the media I just can't trust any competition he has a major part in organising to be fairly balanced.

[IanBru]

[sniff, sniff]

Is something burning? Oh, right, it's the PRL's five-year plan...

[Notch]

The way it sounds is if the PRL don't get the RFUs support they'll take them through the courts. They might not win, but the RFU certainly doesn't need the hassle of a long, expensive and high-profile legal wrangle with all their resources and attention devoted to RWC 2015.

But this seems to indicate the FFR taking a harder line on the clubs. I can't see the LNR rolling over to have their tummies tickled of course; the rich chairmen of the big French clubs aren't exactly used to hearing the word 'no'. But without the support of the FFR it's very hard to imagine this tournament will get off the ground next year and the English will be left playing with themselves- the way McCaffrey comes across in the media I'd say he would be well used to that.

[Notch]

Hopefully the bridges haven't been burned by the French and English clubs and everyone will be involved in these final talks.

We can still have European competitions next year.

[maestegmafia]

Great news from France..

[stub]

Final negotiations are certainly going to be interesting! This latest news very much supports the earlier comments relating to FFR/RFU being at odds with their clubs . Did I read somewhere that the meeting is going to be moved forward from late October or did I imagine/hope that?

[Notch]

Final negotiations are certainly going to be interesting! This latest news very much supports the earlier comments relating to FFR/RFU being at odds with their clubs . Did I read somewhere that the meeting is going to be moved forward from late October or did I imagine/hope that?

They appointed the mediator much sooner than expected. The delay was to get the right man for that ahem... "challenging" role. Now they have this lawyer Mew in place the meeting may be brought forward.

[stub]

Good news - no time to waste.

[Totalflanker]

I just don't buy it, something else must be in place. You don't make an announcement like that unless the deck is stacked in your favour.......If FFR aren't giving their vote, could it be coming from RRW, certainly some ongoing argie-bargie with the WRU at the moment?

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Have the IRFU not made a rather oblique threat pull out of RWC 15 if they lose HC revenue ?

[stub]

Flanker - you could be right - something could be afoot.... I have felt that things have been getting rapidly and  increasingly entrenched and an ERC solution therefore more unlikely. That said maybe LNR/PRL just intend to leave and live with the consequences? Or maybe it is just a very tough negotiating stance. Who knows? My head now hurts I know that much.

[HammerofThunor]

I'm not particularly surprised by the FFR statement. They and the LNR are coming to a head like the RFU and PRL in 2007.

What will be interesting is if the clubs continue to pull out or back down.

[stub]

You don't see a third way with a bit of compromise on both sides and a tweaked HC emerging? Perhaps even a tweaked ERC?

[HammerofThunor]

Depends. The clubs have said they've pulled out. The WalesOnline article says their representatives denied agreeing to carry on discussions. **** knows right now.

[stub]

Depends. The clubs have said they've pulled out. The WalesOnline article says their representatives denied agreeing to carry on discussions. **** knows right now.

I think that is the best possible summary we have!

[maestegmafia]

Have the IRFU not made a rather oblique threat pull out of RWC 15 if they lose HC revenue ?

They might not be the only ones to do so.

[HammerofThunor]

Remember the fury when New Zealand said that they might not be able to afford the 2015 World Cup?

[Notch]

I just don't buy it, something else must be in place. You don't make an announcement like that unless the deck is stacked in your favour.......If FFR aren't giving their vote, could it be coming from RRW, certainly some ongoing argie-bargie with the WRU at the moment?

Well, the English clubs have rather bet all their chips on this and in poker terms I don't know whether they're bluffing or not but with the stakes as high as they are they either go all in or go home. They have to back this thing, and of course they are testing the waters with the RFU as to how much they can get away with as well. They do have the deck stacked in their favour financially- the PRL can probably survive a season with no cross-border rugby, the LNR definitely can.

But I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they have more of a foot still in the ERC camp than the media talk suggests. I don't doubt they want to get this Anglo-French Cup off the ground and want to force the other sides into a settlement that lets them keep as much BT money as possible- and I don't doubt that the destruction of the ERC is their goal which surely makes negotiation very difficult- but they know a deal within the confines of the ERC is better than a tournament that doesn't pass the first major check.

And that hand isn't everything they could wish for. They require the unequivocal support of the RFU and FFR to get off the ground and if they don't get that there won't be a tournament next year- they can get into a long protracted battle with their Unions if they don't get the support they need but if this all ends up going through the courts they won't have this in place by the start of next season. So I would say they have a contingency plan of working within the ERC... but they'll always be waiting for their chance to strike if that happens. Not happy bedfellows.

I have no doubt they are anxious to bring the IRFU and WRU on board too- viewing figures and attendances for big games with the Irish provinces over the years would have BT Sports ears twitching- and they know that both parties are naturally opposed to this. If they could bring those two around, they'd be a lot closer to persuading their own unions to commit to it but the Welsh and Irish don't want this, so the best strategy is to dangle the idea of the provinces and regions being frozen out of Europe altogether and hope they come over to avoid financial oblivion. The provinces might be tempted but they remain under IRFU control. The Welsh, on the other hand, are the potential Lundys but then we have the same problem as with the English and French clubs. The WRU still need to sanction their involvement.

Basically, the only hope they have of getting the other nations to commit to their plan is to make them afraid that without the English and French clubs, they'll lose far too much cash and the absence of a strong cross-border competition European rugby will be financially crippled. It's not very subtle and it's not very nice- Gunboat Diplomacy really. But to do that, they really have to commit to this new tournament. They can't halfass it. They really have to play hardball if there is any chance of their success. They've been waiting for this chance since they sat out the 1998/1999 ERC. This is their best chance of a coup that will take club rugby away from the Unions and they are risking a lot to take it.

Looks like the ERC are going to call the bluff and we'll see what cards are on the table when this definitive meeting takes place.

Either way, this brinksmanship could wind up hurting everyone.

[mr-bryns-attitude]

so the FFR and IRB have indicated that they arne't going to support the PRL/NLR,this begs the question are they going to go it alone and honor the bt deal? if they do then almost certainly the players involved won't be able to play international rugby.possibly a very messy situation for international rugby.theIRB/FFR have handed the PRO12 and ERC an automatic rifle in place of the pea shooters they had originally. good news for european rugby.

[Welshmushroom]

I'm totally confused by the New competition release news.

Firstly they say they already have had enquiries from the Pro 12 to join the new competition. Given the IRFU centrally contract their best players I can't see how Leinster would even be allowed to use those players if the IRFU are not in agreement. So that would see Leinster fielding a largely second string team for the tournament (which would also be the case for Munster & Ulster).

The WRU would appose any welsh region joining without their consent and given the funding to the Regions, I couldn't see any of the Welsh regions being allowed to join.

The Scottish & Italians are fully subsidized by their Unions so that would be a no from the outset.

So basically even if individual regions & provinces are promised big pots of gold there is no way they can join anyway.

Then you look at the FFR statement and it really makes you wonder if French rugby will even endorse this breakaway tournament so that leaves the French clubs in a rock and a hard place. Also the FFR know they can play the IRB card (who have stated they will only intervene if either the FFR or RFU object). The RFU don't look likely to object though but I could see the FFR doing so which then would allow all the home unions to make their voices heard. On that basis I don't see the IRB giving the green light.

So how can a statement be released like this unless they have 100% assurance they can go ahead. Either this is due to the BT deal the PRL signed, which may have clauses of penalties in it if they fail to deliver, which could be why they are desperate to force the issue. The only other logical advice is they have sought legal council on this and are preparing to challenge any IRB directive preventing their tournament go ahead (which could actually weaken the IRB's decision making abilities for further rules etc). I suppose the third option is that the PRL could be walking into this blindly which I suppose you cant rule out.

All I know if the IRB route is taken its a big gamble because if there is a legal challenge I could see the IRB boycotting the RFU and FFR which could see a removal of those international sides altogether.

I can only conclude the PRL have information the rest of us are not privileged to see. Could this be the first move from the clubs to challenge the power and authority the unions wield over them? If so it would almost certainly be the end of international rugby as we know it.

[Guest]

The good news will be if all sides come to an agreement which is to the real benefit of European rugby union. Something that can only be achieved within the framework of the ERC, I believe.
The real issue here is control, and nothing can be truly resolved until that issue is met head on, and dealt with. A house divided....

[TJ]

I think the PRL have now had their bluff called.  I felt from the start they were not serious abut negotiation - it was their way or the highway and control of the tournament with the lions share of the money was always their aim

Now the French Federation have come out with such a strong statement we can see how desperate and thin the gamble is.  Basically the PRL need the French as well as their clubs to be willing to forgo European rugby and that the other nations will buckle under such a threat.  Now it looks more and more possible that the PRL will have to back down or face the loss of European rugby themselves.  They have tried really hard to break the unity of the other unions but have not been able to.  

The sale they made to BT sport was always nonsense - they don't have a European cup to sell and without the rest of the unions they will never have.  Even with the rfu and IRB blessing how much of a european cup is  play off between the top halves of the English and french leagues?

Hopefully now the PRL will have to come back to the table or we will see what I thought was the most likely outcome - a european cup without the PRL clubs.  I am sure the French will not actually boycott it especially as most of their demands could be met easily - even the reduction in numbers so long as everyone shared(5.5.8+2) - or of course without the  english clubs there would be space for a few more teams -  georgia and ????

[The Saint]

The English and French clubs are also unhappy with the way revenues are split between the three leagues and want to keep a greater share

There we go, what it all boils down to. The Celtic & Italian teams will likely say 'shove it up yer ass' rather than risk bankrupting themselves while the rich get richer.

 

nice and mature there calling the french and english morons...

You got tired of trolling on other threads then did you?

#hypocrite .

you making stuff up?

saint calling someone else a troll! lol
I've never called anyone a moron!

You were trolling on another thread and Maes pulled you up on it. I find it very hypocritical that you'd pull me up for referring to the greedy moneymen trying to ruin rugby as morons. Bit touchy as well aren't you to go and cry to the mods over it?   Why don't you just avoid my posts because all you do is whinge as soon as you see a comment by 'The Saint' and it's grown incredibly tedious.

[Intotouch]

The nations cup is a fine competition which brings countries of a more even standard in Europe against one another. When Spain or Belgium are strong enough to beat Ireland or Italy then by all means argue for a two tier 4 nations tournament with relegation. Until then stop talking about the 6 nations as an exclusive cartel and spend ten minutes on the IRB website watching highlights from these matches. The truth is that rugby in the rest of Europe is of a far lower standard and although the sports popularity is growing, in Belgium at an astonishing rate, the fact is that there is no country in Europe that could match any 6 nations side right now.

As an aside I don't get this fixation on promotion/ relegation. There are hugely popular competitions around the world that don't have either. It is not the only model for sport to follow. Just because you didn't grow up with an alternative doesn't mean that there is no viable alternative to this.

[Poorfour]

The good news will be if all sides come to an agreement which is to the real benefit of European rugby union. Something that can only be achieved within the framework of the ERC, I believe.
The real issue here is control, and nothing can be truly resolved until that issue is met head on, and dealt with. A house divided....

Well, we agree on something for once... at least mostly. The IRFU said on RTE a couple of days ago that they thought a compromise could be reached on money and qualification. Since the SRU and RRW have each said something similar previously, I think a compromise might be achievable.

But I also think you're right in saying that the last, and biggest stumbling block is control, and I think it probably comes down to three things. The first is that the governance structure needs to be team-centric and not union-centric; I could imagine something where the teams make most of the decisions but a supermajority of unions have right of veto. Secondly, I don't think the PRL will accept any competition organised by the ERC. There is going to have to be a new body of some sort. Finally, and I now think this is the second big sticking point (after the IRFU agreeing to a not-union-led competition), I can't see the LNR accepting any situation in which the FFR can hijack their say (which may in essence amount to reforming the ERC).

So I disagree that the ERC is the only body that can broker a solution. The ERC is only a company to which the unions have agreed to delegate their tournament organising power. It can be dissolved and replaced if its stakeholders want to. Two of them do.

None of that is easy. But it might be doable.

By the way, does anyone seriously think the PRL and LNR have gone about this the way they have for the fun of it? Making a process more acrimonious than it needs to be is just plain stupid. The ERC and Pro12 unions have been just as intransigent. The difference being that because they already have what they want and don't want to change it (or until their bluff was called, even talk about changing it), all they have had to do is refuse to do anything. Which is less noisy, but just as obstructive to progress. It takes two to tango.

[TJ]

I think the PRL completely misjudged it and are now desperately scrambling. Even the LNR have not backed themselves into a corner in such a way. Todays FFR statement has blown the PRL attempts at a franglo cup out of the water

[allyt2k]

Poorfour your post is a little confusing

''Well, we agree on something for once... at least mostly. The IRFU said on RTE a couple of days ago that they thought a compromise could be reached on money and qualification. Since the SRU and RRW have each said something similar previously, I think a compromise might be achievable''.

''By the way, does anyone seriously think the PRL and LNR have gone about this the way they have for the fun of it? Making a process more acrimonious than it needs to be is just plain stupid. The ERC and Pro12 unions have been just as intransigent. The difference being that because they already have what they want and don't want to change it (or until their bluff was called, even talk about changing it), all they have had to do is refuse to do anything. Which is less noisy, but just as obstructive to progress. It takes two to tango''.

You've stated in the same post you think the pro 12 unions have made indications they will compromise and then said in the same post that you think they have refused to do anything or talk about changing

[Nos na Gaoithe]

Been a long time since I posted here. Usually I just read through the threads to hear the opinions of much better informed people than myself. But the sheer depression brought on by all this PRL - ERC nonsense over the last two weeks has pulled me out of my slumber.

I know there is tribal loyalty on all sides. But that doesn't count for everything. If it was my own Leinster team who were behaving like the PRL and risking overturning the entire union based system purely for the sake of their own club power, progress, success and financial profit, I would be just as dismayed. And I'd also be hard pushed to continue supporting them in the same way I do now.

The english soccer premiership is a farcical entity. As are most all the hyper-professional sports. They use the surface passions of localism and national sport ...but mostly just to con punters with rather bizarre feelings of nostalgic loyalty and aspirational entertainment. Sure it is a succesful product. But in the end these are clubs owned by multi-millionaires who had previously never set foot in these clubs, fielding multi-millionaires who had previously never set foot in these cities/clubs and who would drop that club and its supporters at the first whisper of a bigger deal elsewhere. And it is all for the sake of an outrageously unfair and uneven pay-tv spectacle that most consumers will never participate in except to buy some way over-priced merchandise and feel like they are somehow winners too because "their" team of rich multi-millionaires beat another random team of poorer professionals. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN1WN0YMWZU]

Who could possibly want that as a model for rugby? Sure, there always needs to be change. And professionalism is a difficult beast to both embrace and control. I already get some of that uneasy feeling looking at the way the Provinces have been going. But some attempts have been made to reign that hyper-professionalism in. Also, having been involved at intenational level in my own sport, I can understand that national unions are often inefficient and frustrating - in fact downright archaic in some cases. So reform of national unions and competitions will always be welcome.

But what the PRL have been pushing is no answer to any of that. And they have used those arguments as mere fig leafs. The national unions are there for a reason. The sport will never be the same if they continue to lose more and more control to professional club franchises (That is as true of the Irish Provinces as it is within the PRL/RFU).

I know some English PRL club supporters think this is just a tribal divide. But surely they can see that on this occasion it isn't. If the roles were reversed I would still be fighting for the priority of union control and the reigning in of hyper-professionalism. It is about the nature of rugby as a sport in our society and how we relate to sport in general. If rugby goes the way of hyper-profit and less and less grass-roots and local representation then I for one won't be interested any more. I don't say this as a rabid nationalist...  just as someone who thinks that sports only real use is in its relation to community development and community representation.

The firm FFR response has been the first glimmer of hope that, whatever changes are embraced regarding a new European competition or a new competition body, it will hopefully be union-led and put the interests of expansion and increased participation above talk of multi-million pay-per-view deals for 'elites'.

Sorry for the long oblivious rant.

[Poorfour]

It's not news that the FFR and LNR are at loggerheads. But the wording of the press release isn't as unequivocal as you seem to think. Yes, it does express support for the ERC and says that the alternative proposal "appears" to be irrelevant.

But the substantive point is that it says that any future competition can only be envisaged under the edict of the federations that make up the ERC. All that really amounts to is that the unions have to agree to it (which we already knew). It doesn't actually say the ERC has to be a part of it - though it makes it clear that that's what they'd like.

Anyway, believe what you want. We'll find out soon enough.

[Poorfour]

Poorfour your post is a little confusing

''Well, we agree on something for once... at least mostly. The IRFU said on RTE a couple of days ago that they thought a compromise could be reached on money and qualification. Since the SRU and RRW have each said something similar previously, I think a compromise might be achievable''.

''By the way, does anyone seriously think the PRL and LNR have gone about this the way they have for the fun of it? Making a process more acrimonious than it needs to be is just plain stupid. The ERC and Pro12 unions have been just as intransigent. The difference being that because they already have what they want and don't want to change it (or until their bluff was called, even talk about changing it), all they have had to do is refuse to do anything. Which is less noisy, but just as obstructive to progress. It takes two to tango''.

You've stated in the same post you think the pro 12 unions have made indications they will compromise and then said in the same post that you think they have refused to do anything or talk about changing

I think they are ready to compromise now. I also believe it's been fairly well documented that they have refused even to negotiate substantively for the last 3 (and possibly 6) years. The clue is in the bit that says "or until their bluff was called, even talk about changing it." Bluff called. Attitude changed.

[emack2]

Cut away the crap and the French and English sides want more money for themselves and
hope to achieve it by breaking away.Interesting comment by Bernard Laporte that despite
Toulons poor recent form the are still top of the Top14.He is saying he`s worried about the standard of the French Game.Whether he is referring to the Test side I don`t know Toulon
must have more overseas players than most at least 22 out of 35 non qualified for the National side .

[HammerofThunor]

Good to hear from you Nos na Gaoithe. Always good to get another viewpoint.

I just want to say that the clubs do a lot of work in developing rugby in their communities. They have relationships with lower division clubs to develop players and run the academies.

One thing that really annoys me at the moment is the tunnel vision on international rugby. Every time a new player comes around all the talk is about whether they will make international rugby. Anyone who doesn't is derided as being hopeless, rubbish. There are many really great club players who put their body on the line week in week out and never get the 'glory' of international rugby. And then they have the benefit of being called rubbish.

Club rugby is the life blood of rugby (IMO) and sometimes it seems it is treated as a warm up or practice for International rugby. And I'm mainly talking about England fans as they're the ones I read more. International rugby is far and away the dominate force in rugby at the moment and it could do with losing some of the that (IMO). But it is a slippery slope and could very easily go too far. So care is needed.

[allyt2k]

Poorfour your post is a little confusing

''Well, we agree on something for once... at least mostly. The IRFU said on RTE a couple of days ago that they thought a compromise could be reached on money and qualification. Since the SRU and RRW have each said something similar previously, I think a compromise might be achievable''.

''By the way, does anyone seriously think the PRL and LNR have gone about this the way they have for the fun of it? Making a process more acrimonious than it needs to be is just plain stupid. The ERC and Pro12 unions have been just as intransigent. The difference being that because they already have what they want and don't want to change it (or until their bluff was called, even talk about changing it), all they have had to do is refuse to do anything. Which is less noisy, but just as obstructive to progress. It takes two to tango''.

You've stated in the same post you think the pro 12 unions have made indications they will compromise and then said in the same post that you think they have refused to do anything or talk about changing

I think they are ready to compromise now. I also believe it's been fairly well documented that they have refused even to negotiate substantively for the last 3 (and possibly 6) years. The clue is in the bit that says "or until their bluff was called, even talk about changing it." Bluff called. Attitude changed.

I'd like to get more of an idea of how this is going to play out, I'm having a hard time seeing how the PRL clubs can continue in the ERC. Main sticking points I see is the Unions in control which the PRL/LNR hate but the SRU, IRFU and FIR control there clubs you can't have the clubs without the union. WRU will back the other pro 12 unions, RRW no idea how they stand but can't see them going against there union.  FFR have said no which leaves the PRL clubs on there own.

Nobody will want to back down nobody will want to look weak, LNR could save face by blaming the FFR for the reason they can't leave the ERC, FFR save face by controlling the clubs, RFU have sat on the fence leaving the PRL no way back without looking like they have caved in which they won't want to happen.

FFR with the Pro 12 union are adamant its the ERC who have the collective right to sell the rights to Sky basically no to BT which the PRL just won't accept.

I can only see the PRL just now out on there own, I just can't see them backing down not after all the mud slinging in the media, I can't see any compromise coming.

[HammerofThunor]

The LNR can't be forced into the HEC. They can still leave. Just won't be able to set up another competition.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

Is it not strange, and untenable, that the HEC is a tournament where some nations enter commercially-run clubs and some nations enter union-owned and funded teams? is this not always going to be a situation headed for disaster? the motives and objectives are so completely different (clubs = success and p&l, unions = success of national team and national game).

can anyone imagine this in any other sport?

it's just not sustainable and any wishes to the contrary are pipedream at best, wilful ignorance at worst. money, and growth of the game will talk at the end of the day. and i hate to say it, but the irish, scottish and italians have absolutely the most to lose from monetary and international expansion of this international club competition, hence their intransigence and hence PRL LNR plug-pulling.

as an example, does anyone believe the ERC would approve inclusion of 1 Georgian, 1 Romanian, and 1 Spanish team (each of which would receive equal funding to Zebre for example)? no way. Celtalia's status quo is too sweet. and the reason is that the unions are trying to use a club competition to drive a national agenda including player retention and performance of their national sides. clubs have no such obligations.

RFU will fall into line with PRL, biq qn is whether LNR will ignore FFR. As it stands there will be no HEC. I personally suspect that PRL/LNR will not back down, and even if their unions do not support the Champions Cup or whatever its called (and hence there is NO european competition), they will happily let the HEC dissolve (which it automatically does without renewal from participating nations), take the manageable financial hit, and be in a stronger position to renegotiate an entirely new competition once other nations have had a season or two to get used to no HEC revenues.

[itsallabouttheincentives]

The LNR can't be forced into the HEC. They can still leave. Just won't be able to set up another competition.

and they are the only league who arguably would be financially better off doing so

[allyt2k]

The LNR can't be forced into the HEC. They can still leave. Just won't be able to set up another competition.

Whats the situation with the pro d2 clubs are they part of LNR, if the top 14 clubs pull out could the 2nd tier ask to take part in a European comp or would they have to follow the top 14 clubs?

[Nos na Gaoithe]

Good to hear from you Nos na Gaoithe. Always good to get another viewpoint.

I just want to say that the clubs do a lot of work in developing rugby in their communities. They have relationships with lower division clubs to develop players and run the academies.

Hi Hammer,

Thanks for that. I'm glad to hear that the clubs have deeper community relations. And I would also fervently agree about the international thing and the sorry story of many local heros who never get their recognition.

But I do see international representation (and it's glorification) as merely the linch-pin that holds the representative structure in place. It is the one carrot that anti-hyper-professionalism can still use. I feel much more aggrieved when I see local tribalisms overturn national cooperation as frequently happens in soccer and as has recently been the case in the Irish rugby team. Again, not because of nationalism or anything like that... but just because I find representation at all levels, and how that effects community organisation and participation right down to the local level, to be the most important thing about sport.

But in the current breakdown would you really not see the shift to professional club-domination as precisely that kind of shift that requires the 'care' you speak of. I mean Manchester United and other hyper-pro teams would emphasise the community links of their scouting and development teams too. But that is not the same as the prioritization of regional organisation and local representation of the sport as a whole. Those club development strategies are about club success (and ultimately profit) end of. If they fail and big-pay, big-name players have to be bought in then so be it. That is not the same type of prioritization of community representation and organisation I am speaking of.

And if the PRL win this battle then that would be the direction rugby will be heading... no?

[George Carlin]

I'm not sure what I dislike more about McCafferty - his decision to thumb his nose at what purports to be a binding arrangement when he could just sit it out until the agreement expires this year, his playing to the media to further his own agenda, his patent failure to engage properly with the FFR or his strange, orange ties.
 

“We ultimately expect to have RFU support and it’s in the interests of English rugby to have the teams playing in a good competition at the end of the season.

“If that scenario occurs where the RFU oppose what we’re doing, we’d have to look at the reasons for opposing it.

“You can’t just from a legal point of view say ‘we don’t want it so we’re not going to approve it’, especially when there’s a conflict of interests.

Er, yes you can actually Mark. That's rather the nature of binding commercial obligations. Enormously ironic that he cannot see is doing precisely the converse - asking that legal obligations be ignored because he has decided that he doesn't like them.

[Exiledinborders]

I'm not sure what I dislike more about McCafferty - his decision to thumb his nose at what purports to be a binding arrangement when he could just sit it out until the agreement expires this year, his playing to the media to further his own agenda, his patent failure to engage properly with the FFR or his strange, orange ties.
 

“We ultimately expect to have RFU support and it’s in the interests of English rugby to have the teams playing in a good competition at the end of the season.

“If that scenario occurs where the RFU oppose what we’re doing, we’d have to look at the reasons for opposing it.

“You can’t just from a legal point of view say ‘we don’t want it so we’re not going to approve it’, especially when there’s a conflict of interests.

i
Er, yes you can actually Mark. That's rather the nature of binding commercial obligations. Enormously ironic that he cannot see is doing precisely the converse - asking that legal obligations be ignored because he has decided that he doesn't like them.

But the PRL and LNR have given notice under the ERC's rules. The climbdown over London Welsh's promotion was because the decision to deny them promotion was against UK and EU competition laws.  If the RFU or IRB try to deny two commercial organisations (PRL & LNR) the right to create a new commercial arrangement because its cuts out the unions or because it is against the interests of a third commercial organisation (PRO12) the PRL would have an excellent case in court. This is especially so when the PRO 12 have been told they are welcome to join so there is no question of a cartel.

[maestegmafia]

I'm not sure what I dislike more about McCafferty - his decision to thumb his nose at what purports to be a binding arrangement when he could just sit it out until the agreement expires this year, his playing to the media to further his own agenda, his patent failure to engage properly with the FFR or his strange, orange ties.
 

“We ultimately expect to have RFU support and it’s in the interests of English rugby to have the teams playing in a good competition at the end of the season.

“If that scenario occurs where the RFU oppose what we’re doing, we’d have to look at the reasons for opposing it.

“You can’t just from a legal point of view say ‘we don’t want it so we’re not going to approve it’, especially when there’s a conflict of interests.

i
Er, yes you can actually Mark. That's rather the nature of binding commercial obligations. Enormously ironic that he cannot see is doing precisely the converse - asking that legal obligations be ignored because he has decided that he doesn't like them.

But the PRL and LNR have given notice under the ERC's rules. The climbdown over London Welsh's promotion was because the decision to deny them promotion was against UK and EU competition laws.  If the RFU or IRB try to deny two commercial organisations (PRL & LNR) the right to create a new commercial arrangement because its cuts out the unions or because it is against the interests of a third commercial organisation (PRO12) the PRL would have an excellent case in court. This is especially so when the PRO 12 have been told they are welcome to join so there is no question of a cartel.

There is already a rival opportunity that PRL are snubbing for their own gratification. I can't see any court hearing that case whatsoever.

[maestegmafia]

The promotion relegation isn't an issue it's a smokescreen for club vs union battles and trying to assume control.

[TJ]

The PRL have long wanted no relegation from the jeff - its one of their aims hidden behind the smnokescreen

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