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What happens to foreign players in England's Premiership if the PRL and RFU really fall out?

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What happens to foreign players in England's Premiership if the PRL and RFU really fall out? Empty What happens to foreign players in England's Premiership if the PRL and RFU really fall out?

Post by maestegmafia Mon 23 Sep - 19:12

I would imagine that Warren Gatland and Co are a little worried about access to their English based players no matter what the final outcome is of this PRL debacle. But as it now looks certain that both FFR and the IRB will not sanction a "Franglo Cup" if a "Franglo" Cup or the PRLs rugby championship cup happens and welsh Internationals are involved will we ever get to see our players again?

Hopefully if it goes belly up and the PRL go it alone then our Internationals will leave the Premiership clubs and return to Wales.

Similar thoughts for players of other nations with players consumed by the PRLs personal issues.

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Post by Scrumpy Mon 23 Sep - 19:17

You're paranoid mate! Wink 
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Post by maestegmafia Mon 23 Sep - 19:47

I would be surprised if anyone was not concerned. The implications of the PRLs behaviour could range from cataclysmic to bugger all.

But anything above bugger all will effect other countries in some shape or form.

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Post by TJ Mon 23 Sep - 19:51

Its a possibility that the PRL form a breakaway league and the IRB decide no players from that league can play international rugby. Players would be put in a very difficult position of choosing club or country, international teams would risk losing some of their best players. Potentially devastating. Hopefully some sense prevails.

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Post by Toadfish Mon 23 Sep - 19:55

maestegmafia wrote:I would be surprised if anyone was not concerned. The implications of the PRLs behaviour  could range from cataclysmic to bugger all.

But anything above bugger all will effect other countries in some shape or form.
You not worried at all about the French side of this? From what I have read they have the biggest battle between the clubs and the union.

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Post by TJ Mon 23 Sep - 19:59

The french clubs are weaker and their union stronger by my thinking - and the other unions can concede enough to keep them on board. The real problem is two things - the unbridgeable gulf between the wants and needs of the PRL and the Rabo unions and the desire of the PRL for control.

I could be wrong but its my reading

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Post by lostinwales Mon 23 Sep - 20:02

I have heard a rumor that the PRL are going to start making torture equipment for totalitarian regimes out of the bones of rare whales.

I am sure that there shouldnt be too many problems as long as the unions requiring player release are able to cough up for some insurance.

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Post by Cyril Mon 23 Sep - 20:04

All foreign players will be sucked into the vortex and made to worship The Unmentionable One. They will, however, have temporary release during the international window.

It's all in the small print.

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Post by maestegmafia Mon 23 Sep - 20:45

Toadfish wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:I would be surprised if anyone was not concerned. The implications of the PRLs behaviour  could range from cataclysmic to bugger all.

But anything above bugger all will effect other countries in some shape or form.
You not worried at all about the French side of this?  From what I have read they have the biggest battle between the clubs and the union.
No the French Clubs and WRU get on really well, so I see very little problems there at all.

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Post by maestegmafia Mon 23 Sep - 20:48

JayP wrote:The french clubs are weaker and their union stronger by my thinking - and the other unions can concede enough to keep them on board.  The real problem is two things - the unbridgeable gulf between the wants and needs of the PRL and the Rabo unions and the desire of the PRL for control.

I could be wrong but its my reading
Well the FFR have issued a statement saying that they do not support the PRLs competition. The RFu are yet to do such so it shows that the FFR do have a great deal of strength, certainly enough to make a decision something the RFU have failed to do yet.

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Post by Standulstermen Mon 23 Sep - 20:51

The reality is that any players going to PRL or LNR clubs have clauses in their contracts anyway. Sexton has to be released for every Irish get together for instance.

That being said given that the FFR and the IRB don't look like they will approve a franglo cup the reality is either a schism within rugby (in which case PRL/LNR based players are inelligible for internationals) or else no European competition which will see players have plenty of free weekends anyway.

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Post by maestegmafia Mon 23 Sep - 21:09

Standulstermen wrote:The reality is that any players going to PRL or LNR clubs have clauses in their contracts anyway. Sexton has to be released for every Irish get together for instance.

That being said given that the FFR and the IRB don't look like they will approve a franglo cup the reality is either a schism within rugby (in which case PRL/LNR based players are inelligible for internationals) or else no European competition which will see players have plenty of free weekends anyway.
PRL and LNR are two different entities. The LNR allow the clubs to release players as they wish. The PRL request payment for release of foreign players.

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 23 Sep - 21:15

maestegmafia wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:The reality is that any players going to PRL or LNR clubs have clauses in their contracts anyway. Sexton has to be released for every Irish get together for instance.

That being said given that the FFR and the IRB don't look like they will approve a franglo cup the reality is either a schism within rugby (in which case PRL/LNR based players are inelligible for internationals) or else no European competition which will see players have plenty of free weekends anyway.
PRL and LNR are two different entities. The LNR allow the clubs to release players as they wish. The PRL request payment for release of foreign players.
No they don't. They released players to the PI and Scotland before the last World Cup. No mention of money, and I doubt the PI could afford to if there was. There's no dialogue between the WRU and the clubs so there's never been any mention of money. However I would expect the clubs to expect money to release players outside of the window in the same way the Regions do. Certainly from the richer, fastest growing profit high unions.

Also the good relationship with the French clubs has recently resulted in Charteris playing a game for his club in the window and one outside of it and Mike Phillips being release for one game. That's it in the last few years. so not great (but a lot better than the non-existant relationship with the English clubs).

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 23 Sep - 21:16

Regarding the PRL split, where has the idea come from that they would form a competition outside Union? They've suggested they might legally challenge a decision but I've also read that if the RFU don't allow it they just won't play in Europe. I can't see it happening. If it did the IRB response would have to be severe and cut them off completely. Any player who contracts to such a club cannot play union. They get no funding from central bodies. They can't call in Union, etc.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 23 Sep - 21:25

maestegmafia wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:The reality is that any players going to PRL or LNR clubs have clauses in their contracts anyway. Sexton has to be released for every Irish get together for instance.

That being said given that the FFR and the IRB don't look like they will approve a franglo cup the reality is either a schism within rugby (in which case PRL/LNR based players are inelligible for internationals) or else no European competition which will see players have plenty of free weekends anyway.
PRL and LNR are two different entities. The LNR allow the clubs to release players as they wish. The PRL request payment for release of foreign players.
As far as I am aware what the PRL want is insurance cover for players if they are released to their respective unions outside of international windows. As has been said those brilliant and subtle negotiators in the WRU dont talk to the PRL, probably because its just easier to blame them for global warming and the decline of western civilisation instead

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Post by Standulstermen Mon 23 Sep - 21:31

HammerofThunor wrote:Regarding the PRL split, where has the idea come from that they would form a competition outside Union? They've suggested they might legally challenge a decision but I've also read that if the RFU don't allow it they just won't play in Europe. I can't see it happening. If it did the IRB response would have to be severe and cut them off completely. Any player who contracts to such a club cannot play union. They get no funding from central bodies. They can't call in Union, etc.
Well given the FFR and IRB have said they won't ratify the new competition as things stand the PRL will have to not play in Europe unless they can negotiate another deal with the pro12 unions. (not entirely unlikely)

Even if the PRL legally challenge the IRB that will still lead to a schism.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 23 Sep - 21:32

lostinwales wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:The reality is that any players going to PRL or LNR clubs have clauses in their contracts anyway. Sexton has to be released for every Irish get together for instance.

That being said given that the FFR and the IRB don't look like they will approve a franglo cup the reality is either a schism within rugby (in which case PRL/LNR based players are inelligible for internationals) or else no European competition which will see players have plenty of free weekends anyway.
PRL and LNR are two different entities. The LNR allow the clubs to release players as they wish. The PRL request payment for release of foreign players.
As far as I am aware what the PRL want is insurance cover for players if they are released to their respective unions outside of international windows. As has been said those brilliant and subtle negotiators in the WRU dont talk to the PRL, probably because its just easier to blame them for global warming and the decline of western civilisation instead
That is the main gripe liw - but I suspect that there is also a compensation need as well. Everyone knows when the International windows are and should budget accordingly. The WRU however continue to want to make profit without paying a fair rate for non-IW matches.

France has different insurance laws to UK so that is not an issue - and players like Charteris accept a cut in wages to be made available outside of the window. Should WRU ever be willing to talk to the English clubs and sort out the insurance that coudl happen here too.

Please also note that Niall Morris was released last week for Ireland stuff and flew out to Dublin again yesterday to meet up with the extended squad. Difference is IRFU are willing to talk to the clubs.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 23 Sep - 21:35

Standulstermen wrote:
Well given the FFR and IRB have said they won't ratify the new competition as things stand the PRL will have to not play in Europe unless they can negotiate another deal with the pro12 unions. (not entirely unlikely)

Even if the PRL legally challenge the IRB that will still lead to a schism.
The FFR will ratify it if LNR accept certain terms associated with NFQ limits and International release. Thus if FFR and RFU ratify it, then the IRB will too.

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Post by Standulstermen Mon 23 Sep - 21:39

It doesn't seem so given the strong language from the FFR today LT. Of course it could just be a bargaining position but there is no guarantee the IRB will ratify even then given Gospers backtracking last week

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 23 Sep - 21:50

I just get the feeling that every party has resorted to brinkmanship and shouting, hoping they can shout loudest. This has all been bubbling for about 4-5 years, but until now, the final season of the current arrangement and 15 months after PRL/LNR tendered their resignation, no-one wanted to talk.

That is what frustrates me the most and why I would quite happily see every chief executive involved from McCafferty to Wheeler through Lewis and Lux sacked. The current bosses from every country have let their own fans down.

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Post by TJ Mon 23 Sep - 21:52

I would tend to agree with that sentiment tiger.

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Post by butterfingers Mon 23 Sep - 22:00

here here LT:clap: 

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Post by maestegmafia Mon 23 Sep - 22:04

Standulstermen wrote:It doesn't seem so given the strong language from the FFR today LT. Of course it could just be a bargaining position but there is no guarantee the IRB will ratify even then given Gospers backtracking last week
Gosper was misinterpreted by the BBC journalist. The IRB statement is very clear.

The IRB support the Unions they represent and they do not condone break away partisan competitions.

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Post by Casartelli Mon 23 Sep - 22:13

Shambles. Even the 'key decision makers' in the leagues, the clubs and the unions haven't got the faintest idea how this will all pan out.

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Post by itsallabouttheincentives Mon 23 Sep - 22:14

LondonTiger wrote:I just get the feeling that every party has resorted to brinkmanship and shouting, hoping they can shout loudest. This has all been bubbling for about 4-5 years, but until now, the final season of the current arrangement and 15 months after PRL/LNR tendered their resignation, no-one wanted to talk.

That is what frustrates me the most and why I would quite happily see every chief executive involved from McCafferty to Wheeler through Lewis and Lux sacked. The current bosses from every country have let their own fans down.
totally agree

however the closest we might get to this is disbanding and reforming the ERC. it is not fit for purpose either structurally or from a senior personnel perspective.

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Post by Standulstermen Mon 23 Sep - 22:16

maestegmafia wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:It doesn't seem so given the strong language from the FFR today LT. Of course it could just be a bargaining position but there is no guarantee the IRB will ratify even then given Gospers backtracking last week
Gosper was misinterpreted by the BBC journalist. The IRB statement is very clear.

The IRB support the Unions they represent and they do not condone break away partisan competitions.
Misinterpret or whatever he backed up very quickly lol. I see the beeb aren't running with the FFR announcement.

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 23 Sep - 22:21

maestegmafia wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:It doesn't seem so given the strong language from the FFR today LT. Of course it could just be a bargaining position but there is no guarantee the IRB will ratify even then given Gospers backtracking last week
Gosper was misinterpreted by the BBC journalist. The IRB statement is very clear.

The IRB support the Unions they represent and they do not condone break away partisan competitions.
How do you misinterpret the following quote (quote means he actually said this)

"The RFU would have to approve their clubs partaking in such a competition, and the French would have to approve their clubs," Gosper told BBC Sport.

"If both unions approve it and felt comfortable with it, for whatever reason that might be, then the likelihood is we'd approve it.

"If they are not comfortable with it, then it would be doubtful that we would approve such a competition.

"We want a full European contest, which is in the interests of the global game and the game in Europe."

Emphasis mine. the want a full European competition but have also said that they won't stop an Anglo-French cup if the unions agree on it. But first and foremost they want an full Cup. Which everyone has said they want. The misinterpratation comes from people reading him reiterating 'he wants a full European cup' as 'he would not sanction a Franglo cup if a full European cup is off the table'. No where has he suggested that he wouldn't sanction such a cup if (and this is the important bit) it is sanctioned by the unions.

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Post by Standulstermen Mon 23 Sep - 22:29

Actually thunor he backtracked later in the day when talking with Tom English (might have been tweeting) . Think he did another interview also backtracking. I couldn't be arsed finding them as I'm off to work but I'm sure someone will indulge.

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Post by maestegmafia Tue 24 Sep - 9:39

And now the unions are going against the Franglo. France today, hopefully England next.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 24 Sep - 17:48

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10328966/RFU-and-Premiership-clubs-face-off-over-European-breakaway-would-be-calamitous.html

Good article from Cleary this morning & thankfully I believe we have a good man at the helm in the RFU in Ritchie.

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Post by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 24 Sep - 18:24

Cleary wrote: Play-off format leads to damp squibs

Rotation policies can leave you in a spin. Bath came to Saracens on Sunday for a top-of-the-table clash between the only unbeaten sides left in the Aviva Premiership. It ought to have been a real ding-dong. Instead, it was a damp squib.

Bath, mindful of matches coming up, made seven changes, were 31-3 adrift at half-time. This is the downside of the end-of-season play-off format.

Clubs shuffle their squads to keep players fresh knowing that they can make up for any ground lost and finish in the top four. If it were first-past-the-post as in football, they would take no such risks.
Good on yer Mick. Anyone taking a pop at the playoffs cannot be all bad in my eyes. Softly, softly catchee monkey.

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Post by TJ Tue 24 Sep - 18:26

It does amuse me the idea that leinster can rest players in the league and thats unfair but when bath do it is squad rotation and perfectly acceptable. i did see some analysis tht showed Jeff teams with their bigger squads actually rotated / rested layers more than the Rabo teams

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Post by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 24 Sep - 18:37

Me too, TJ. Still so long as they qualify in the top six it doesn't really matter.
And the RFU don't dictate to Jeff clubs who and precisely when to rest players.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 24 Sep - 18:38

TJ wrote:It does amuse me the idea that leinster can rest players in the league and thats unfair but when bath do it is squad rotation and perfectly acceptable.  i did see some analysis tht showed Jeff teams with their bigger squads actually rotated / rested layers more than the Rabo teams
I would be intrigued to see that research.

Last season Leinster and Munster selected more different players for the Rabo than any team in AP or T14. When Leinster met Northampton in the final their players had played something like 6 matches per player less across the season - across all matches club and country.

Also I am sure you cannot have missed the scorn cast on Bath for effectively throwing the match. Bath fans are angry at their bosses actions. Was there such outrage when Leinster/Munster picked 2nd/3rd teams for the away legs of the New Year derbies?

I am not saying they are wrong to do it, but they do do it.

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Post by TJ Tue 24 Sep - 19:19

My point is that the Jeff clubs and the French clubs do this as well.  One aspect is the Rabo teams have more internationals players so they have to rest them from playing too many matches - if you looked at international squad players I suspect you would see similar number of games played across all the leagues.

I have no idea where that analysis is london tiger - it was mentioned on here last time this was debated.  I'll have a look

also the Rabo season is effectively shorter with less games to play. As I said - Jeff and French teams rotate squads as well so to say its only the Rabo that do this is simply wrong.

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Post by nathan Tue 24 Sep - 19:51

Standulstermen wrote:Actually thunor he backtracked later in the day when talking with Tom English (might have been tweeting) . Think he did another interview also backtracking. I couldn't be arsed finding them as I'm off to work but I'm sure someone will indulge.
Actually he didn't, i even posted the audio clip on here of what exactly he said.

nathan

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Post by TJ Tue 24 Sep - 19:55

Also another reason for the greater number of games played by Jeff teams is the LV cup. adds a number of games to the season.

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Post by TJ Tue 24 Sep - 20:12

London tiger - some analysis of rotation on this thread. https://www.606v2.com/t21868p50-leicester-and-english-rugby-just-not-good-enough

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Post by munkian Tue 24 Sep - 21:35

Resting players doesn't make them better though surely ? Aint no fitness like match fitness to shake the rust off
munkian
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Post by TJ Tue 24 Sep - 21:40

Ah well - a few years ago when english teams were winning the reason was they were battle hardened, Now they are not its because they are weary and the irish get to rest their players.

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