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Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread

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Post by Bull on Sun 22 Sep 2013, 5:07 pm

First topic message reminder :

Cleverly ?? Are you freaking kidding me!

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Post by mystiroakey on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:22 pm

playing for united isn't quite the same as player everywhere else!

kagawa has been given a chance- ZAHA hasn't.

the later will make a big difference.

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Post by The Special Juan on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:22 pm

GSC wrote:He's had chances. He hasn't performed to a high level consistently.

He's been.overhyped because united fans needed to talk themselves into losing Rooney
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Post by kingraf on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:31 pm

I agree that Rooney is better, and at his absolute zenith there is daylight between the two, but over the course of a season, I think its closer than some here suggest.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:34 pm

Olly wrote:Wayne Rooney is a better player than Shinji Kagawa. It's not even close
Yes, when he's fit and on form. Which has been about 1 game in 10 the last couple of years.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:35 pm

GSC wrote:He's had chances. He hasn't performed to a high level consistently.

He's been.overhyped because united fans needed to talk themselves into losing Rooney
No he hasn't. He's had one season heavily used as a sub and hasn't had a consistent starting run in the side since he joined.

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Post by GSC on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:39 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Olly wrote:Wayne Rooney is a better player than Shinji Kagawa. It's not even close
Yes, when he's fit and on form.  Which has been about 1 game in 10 the last couple of years.
And yet he's been United's best player in all their big
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Post by mystiroakey on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:42 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Olly wrote:Wayne Rooney is a better player than Shinji Kagawa. It's not even close
Yes, when he's fit and on form.  Which has been about 1 game in 10 the last couple of years.
more hyperbole

1 IN 10.. Rolling Eyes 



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Post by GSC on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:47 pm

Imagine where United would be if Rooney had only shown up for 1 game so far
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:47 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Olly wrote:Wayne Rooney is a better player than Shinji Kagawa. It's not even close
Yes, when he's fit and on form.  Which has been about 1 game in 10 the last couple of years.
more hyperbole

1 IN 10.. Rolling Eyes 


Hardly, the Bayer game was his first great performance this season in, what? 6 games?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:48 pm

GSC wrote:Imagine where United would be if Rooney had only shown up for 1 game so far
If it were the Bayer game we'd be in exactly the same position we are now.

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Post by kingraf on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 1:48 pm

Three points better off?
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Post by J.Benson II on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 2:33 pm

Its been an interesting start to the league.
When Man City turn it on likes they did yesterday, they are very good. They possess the best squad in the league but need to find more consistency.
United were very poor yesterday but Moyes has been unfortuante to have got a very tough few opening games. Even with Fergie they would have struggled to have got through the first five games with many points.
The problem with United is that almost half of their team that started against City are average. Decent squad players perhaps, but not good enough to be starting big games for a team of United's calibre.
Chelsea look pedestrian while Arsenal and Tottenham appear to have made improvements from last season.
Liverpool will be dangerous once Suarez returns too.

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Post by Ent on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 3:09 pm

We should go to a 4231

De gea
Rafael rio vidic evra
Carrick fellani
Zaha/nani Rooney kagawa
Rvp

Would give us 4 consistent and reliable holders of possession and width from the fullbacks, would take time to learn the system but we cannot play 442 with our current personnel.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 3:10 pm

Yep, like that. A lot in fact.

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Post by Guest on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 3:27 pm

Ent wrote:We should go to a 4231

De gea
Rafael rio vidic evra
Carrick fellani
Zaha/nani Rooney kagawa
Rvp
There would still be issues with that formation. Rafael can't defend, he's improved but his positional sense is woeful and like David Luiz, there's a mistake waiting to happen. Also, Valencia is picked because of his engine to operate offensively & defensively, especially away from home. Asking Zaha/Nani to do that is going to be difficult in front of Rafael & is not a strong point of their games either, hence why Valencia is picked now. Your two central midfielders would be too stagnant, would get blown away by a fast, high energy midfield opposition, as shown yesterday. Fellaini & Carrick are too lethargic for my liking. Moyes, clearly does not favour Kagawa, therefore can't see him suddenly going to him and demanding a response from Shinji. Welbeck is probably going to be favoured by Moyes, again effective defensively & offensively & offers the work-rate & speed that compensates for Carrick & Fellaini's lack of pace. Rooney & RVP are obvious choices. Also feel this is the last year for Evra & Vidic is slowly deteriorating as a player & vulnerable at the top level now.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 3:31 pm

They don't need to be fast and energetic, that's not their role in that formation. They're there to sit in front of the back four, protect it, retain possession, and get it to the next 3 who are there to do all the high energy creative stuff.

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Post by GSC on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 3:43 pm

That was United's lineup yesterday in CM and Yaya/Fernandinho ripped them a new one
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Post by NickisBHAFC on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 3:49 pm

Yaya did, im still very underwhelmed by Fernandinho.

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Post by Fernando on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 3:59 pm

That's the idea of Fernandinho, He's there but you don't realize how key a role he plays for the side goes under the radar.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 4:02 pm

GSC wrote:That was United's lineup yesterday in CM and Yaya/Fernandinho ripped them a new one
Pointless/fallacious argument.

Pick two players out of 11 and say no other combination of those 2 players and any other 9 in any other formation could work....? Erm Rolling Eyes

We played 4-4-2 with two terrible wingers who were absolute rot and, yes, out 2 CM's got over-run. But that doesn't mean the same two players in a different role, in a different formation and with a different surround 9 players couldn't achieve a different outcome.

Plus, only City have done that to us. Chelsea couldn't. Liverpool couldn't.

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Post by GSC on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 4:14 pm

United basically played your formation yesterday and the more mobile and powerful CM lineup destroyed them.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 4:15 pm

Erm, no they didn't??!! Erm

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 4:16 pm

They pretty much did, Rooney was barely up alongside Welbeck all game, Citeh played it the same with Aguero/Negredo, Aguero roaming ala Rooney, with one dude up top
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 4:21 pm

So playiing 4-4-2 with two wingers and one of the two coming deep now and again is the same as playing 4-2-3-1 with no wingers?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 4:23 pm

You've pretty much replaced Young (who likes to drift infield) with Kagawa (who likes to drift infield). Since when were Zaha/Nani not wingers?
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 4:28 pm

Would say you missed Rafael/Jones at RB a lot, not sure if Smalling's ever gonna be good enough
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 4:35 pm

Olly wrote:You've pretty much replaced Young (who likes to drift infield) with Kagawa (who likes to drift infield). Since when were Zaha/Nani not wingers?
Kagawa 'who likes to drift infield'?? Erm that's because he's not a winger and should be playing a number 10 type roll. Zaha/Nani are the only ones with a winger background but both would work well more centrally, like poor men's Ronaldos.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 4:37 pm

Olly wrote:Would say you missed Rafael/Jones at RB a lot, not sure if Smalling's ever gonna be good enough
Will reserve judgement until he's no longer played out of position. He's not on Jones' level therefore does a worse job being shoe-horned into that RB position. Tbh I'd love both of them back and into the XI - Jones adding some grit and dynamism to the midfield.

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Post by NickisBHAFC on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 4:43 pm

I still class Smalling as an average ryman player.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 4:53 pm

Man United look so poor this season which is why I said they are not the best team in ENgland THIS season despite winning the EPL LAST season.

drawing at home against Chelsea and then losing to both liverpool and Man city is really not a great start to the season.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 5:01 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:Man United look so poor this season which is why I said they are not the best team in ENgland THIS season despite winning the EPL LAST season.

drawing at home against Chelsea and then losing to both liverpool and Man city is really not a great start to the season.
Citeh losing to Cardiff isn't too great either is it?
Nor Chelsea losing to Everton.
Or Arsenal getting beaten at home to Villa.

No stand out contenders this season.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 5:06 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Man United look so poor this season which is why I said they are not the best team in ENgland THIS season despite winning the EPL LAST season.

drawing at home against Chelsea and then losing to both liverpool and Man city is really not a great start to the season.
Citeh losing to Cardiff isn't too great either is it?
Nor Chelsea losing to Everton.
Or Arsenal getting beaten at home to Villa.

No stand out contenders this season.
Arsenal and Tottenham look the best 2 teams. Yes Arsenal lost and so did Tottenham but that was before Ozil was signed and before tottenham signed their new players.

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Post by kingraf on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 5:14 pm

Arsenal look like the team to beat. And thats with nearly half the first choice out. Podolski will come back, as will Arteta, Diaby (for the five or six games he is healthy) will add steel to the midfield... And Ramsey is currently on a comeback trail rivalled only by Nadal, McCaw and Adrian Peterson, Arsenal for the league!!
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Post by Ent on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 5:20 pm

John wrote:
Ent wrote:We should go to a 4231

De gea
Rafael rio vidic evra
Carrick fellani
Zaha/nani Rooney kagawa
Rvp
There would still be issues with that formation. Rafael can't defend, he's improved but his positional sense is woeful and like David Luiz, there's a mistake waiting to happen. Also, Valencia is picked because of his engine to operate offensively & defensively, especially away from home. Asking Zaha/Nani to do that is going to be difficult in front of Rafael & is not a strong point of their games either, hence why Valencia is picked now. Your two central midfielders would be too stagnant, would get blown away by a fast, high energy midfield opposition, as shown yesterday. Fellaini & Carrick are too lethargic for my liking. Moyes, clearly does not favour Kagawa, therefore can't see him suddenly going to him and demanding a response from Shinji. Welbeck is probably going to be favoured by Moyes, again effective defensively & offensively & offers the work-rate & speed that compensates for Carrick & Fellaini's lack of pace. Rooney & RVP are obvious choices. Also feel this is the last year for Evra & Vidic is slowly deteriorating as a player & vulnerable at the top level now.
Granted there are problems but it is making the best of a bad situation.

Valencia offers next to nothing going forward and very little defensively, you simply tell who ever is playing in those widish positions if you don't get back when needed you will be out of the side. Then if it doesn't work you drop them.

Agree rafael is poor defensively but you need the fullbacks to provide width in this formation.

Far from ideal but we don't have the players to play 442 and not get chinned by anyone decent.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 5:25 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:Man United look so poor this season which is why I said they are not the best team in ENgland THIS season despite winning the EPL LAST season.

drawing at home against Chelsea and then losing to both liverpool and Man city is really not a great start to the season.
Who has had a great start, based on results then?

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Post by Nakatomi Plaza on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 5:27 pm

J.Benson II wrote:Its been an interesting start to the league.
When Man City turn it on likes they did yesterday, they are very good. They possess the best squad in the league but need to find more consistency.
United were very poor yesterday but Moyes has been unfortuante to have got a very tough few opening games. Even with Fergie they would have struggled to have got through the first five games with many points.
The problem with United is that almost half of their team that started against City are average. Decent squad players perhaps, but not good enough to be starting big games for a team of United's calibre.
Chelsea look pedestrian while Arsenal and Tottenham appear to have made improvements from last season.
Liverpool will be dangerous once Suarez returns too.
Think this is a fair assessment JB. Ironically I think Coutinho's injury does Suarez a bit of a favour, as Liverpool will play him in the hole now, and I believe he'll be more effective there, than out wide.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 5:47 pm

kingraf wrote:Arsenal look like the team to beat. And thats with nearly half the first choice out. Podolski will come back, as will Arteta, Diaby (for the five or six games he is healthy) will add steel to the midfield... And Ramsey is currently on a comeback trail rivalled only by Nadal, McCaw and Adrian Peterson, Arsenal for the league!!
I agree with this. This Arsenal team look very good and arsenal still has 5 first team players out injured.

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Post by Guest on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 6:03 pm

You judge Arsenal when they go to Old Trafford, Etihad, Stamford Bridge etc. That's the true indicator of how Arsenal have progressed. Yeah, it a good start but we've seen it all before with Arsenal. Don't get carried away with results against Sunderland, Marseille or Stoke. Ozil could of been blind-folded & still got a haul of assists. Lets wait & see where Arsenal are post Xmas......I bet they won't be in the top 3.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 6:09 pm

John wrote:You judge Arsenal when they go to Old Trafford, Etihad, Stamford Bridge etc. That's the true indicator of how Arsenal have progressed. Yeah, it a good start but we've seen it all before with Arsenal. Don't get carried away with results against Sunderland, Marseille or Stoke. Ozil could of been blind-folded & still got a haul of assists. Lets wait & see where Arsenal are post Xmas......I bet they won't be in the top 3.
Exactly.

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Post by kingraf on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 6:15 pm

So suddenly only the best EPL teams are the barometer to measure Ozil? I thought the EPL was so much better than La Liga, and Giroud was so much worse than Ronaldo that he would be exposed in the EPL. Now he will only be exposed facing the best of the EPL away? Alright then, hope those goalposts arent too heavy
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 6:19 pm

Think you've missed the point, raf.

Drawing conclusions based purely on what's happened to date would only be useful if United played 60% of their games against Top6 sides and Arsenal played 20%.

As that's not how the league works, saying 'Arsenal look amazing and United rubbish' when they've had totally different fixture lists is entirely fallacious. January is when it gets interesting as that's roughly half way through the season and everyone's played a decent spread of opponents.

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Post by Trebs on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 6:30 pm

Vidic and Rio are both not mobile enough, and Evans or Jones should be playing at centre back. I would put Jones above Smalling for the right back slot, but to be fair that's what Moyes did before his injury. In midfield, Cleverley has to start. He is what United need there, I would love to see him alongside Fellaini and Carrick in the centre, and have Rooney and Welbeck/Kagawa behind Van Persie in a similar system to England. I know United traditionally play with wingers but none of them at the moment (bar Zaha who hasn't had enough gametime to judge) are up to scratch. The only other thing I'd suggest is having Kagawa and Cleverley on the wings as 'drifters' in a more narrow style.

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Post by Ent on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 6:41 pm

Cleverly unfortunately had had his chance and blown it, hides from the ball in centre midfield which is unforgivable.

A pity as he was mobile and understood the pressing game.

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Post by NickisBHAFC on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 6:58 pm

John wrote:You judge Arsenal when they go to Old Trafford, Etihad, Stamford Bridge etc. That's the true indicator of how Arsenal have progressed. Yeah, it a good start but we've seen it all before with Arsenal. Don't get carried away with results against Sunderland, Marseille or Stoke. Ozil could of been blind-folded & still got a haul of assists. Lets wait & see where Arsenal are post Xmas......I bet they won't be in the top 3.
This. Arsenal have had a VERY easy start par Tottenham, but even then they had home advantage, they usually get outclassed at White Hart Lane.

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Post by mystiroakey on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 7:36 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Olly wrote:Wayne Rooney is a better player than Shinji Kagawa. It's not even close
Yes, when he's fit and on form.  Which has been about 1 game in 10 the last couple of years.
more hyperbole

1 IN 10.. Rolling Eyes 


Hardly, the Bayer game was his first great performance this season in, what? 6 games?

You are stating that kawaga is better 90% of the time.. Nonsense mate




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Post by Breadvan on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 9:04 pm

Thoughts on yesterday...

Swans were superb v Palace. Thought it would be hard after the Valencia exploits, but strolled thru the game. Swans seem to have a squad to handle both the europa and prem leagues.

City brilliant,Man U dire. Never seen a utd performance like that in a while.

Think Cardiff will struggle. You can't rely on 2 banks of 4, 10 men behind the ball and set pieces to stay up.

Arsenal fans; Will the booing of Shawcross ever stop? Still cannot except that tackle on Ramsey was 50/50 and a complete accident???
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Post by Fernando on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 9:22 pm

Breadvan wrote:
Arsenal fans; Will the booing of Shawcross ever stop? Still cannot except that tackle on Ramsey was 50/50 and a complete accident???
No because the dumb **** stoke fans boo Ramsey for having his leg broken. Every time we go there they boo him so they can go f**k themselves.

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Post by NickisBHAFC on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 9:31 pm

I think its more or less both idiotic fans of both sides have now created that little war of the booing. Like i have said time and time again EVERY side in the 92 teams of the football league have idiotic fans. Some of our fans actually booed that poor Newport player that got stretched off. Think the booing of Ramsey and Shawcross should just stop. No idea why the players are getting booed when they have done nothing wrong, accept from something they will love to forget about!

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Post by Breadvan on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 10:00 pm

Fernando wrote:
Breadvan wrote:
Arsenal fans; Will the booing of Shawcross ever stop? Still cannot except that tackle on Ramsey was 50/50 and a complete accident???
No because the dumb **** stoke fans boo Ramsey for having his leg broken. Every time we go there they boo him so they can go f**k themselves.
Think they boo him due to him never accepting an apology from Shawcross, a reckless challenge to a stoke player when he cameback and his attitude afterwards...
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Post by Ent on Mon 23 Sep 2013, 10:09 pm

They boo him due to the hysteria created from an accident.

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