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Australia in India

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Duty281
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Mike Selig
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Post by KP_fan Mon 30 Sep 2013, 8:14 am

First topic message reminder :

Srinivasan stays....puts his own men is the big event that will have it's impact on Indian and global cricket.
meanwhile Indian squad for the ODIs vs. Aus is announced.

the only noteworthy change is the return of Yuvraj....who will most likely play instead of Dinesh Kaarthik....who should have no complains at being dropped.
he blew so many chances of establishing himself as an India regular......his international career is over  from what I can see.
Yadav is not in the squad...I hope he has not picked an injury....and it's a case of preserving him for test matches.....whihc would be a wise move.
Shami ahmed should be the first choice 3rd seamer in that case


Squad: MS Dhoni (capt), Shikhar Dhawan, Rohit Sharma, Virat Kohli, Yuvraj Singh, Suresh Raina, Ravindra Jadeja, R Ashwin, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Ishant Sharma, Vinay Kumar, Amit Mishra, Ambati Rayudu, Mohammed Shami, Jaydev Unadkat


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Post by msp83 Mon 14 Oct 2013, 6:42 pm

Don't think the top 3 are all sureshots. Kohli obviously is, and Dhawan largely is. The management is hoping that Sharma will also deliver at last. But Dhoni did mention that for most positions they have set players or replacement options. Rahane has opened in the past for the ODI side and has done will for his IPL side at the top consistently. Gautam Gambhir is trying to make a comeback and is still in the selectorial frame. Pujara too can be brought into the frame if needed.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 14 Oct 2013, 6:56 pm

msp83 wrote:Don't think the top 3 are all sureshots. Kohli obviously is, and Dhawan largely is. The management is hoping that Sharma will also deliver at last.
 
msp...you are hoping against hope that Sharma may not be in Very Happy .....I told you ( which is less important)...but more importantly Dhoni confident and with an unmistakeble air of authority coming from his own strong position throuhg good shows in 2013 and and god-father Srnivasan's uncontested re-election......made it clear that top-3 are cast in stone.
 
 
But Dhoni did mention that for most positions they have set players or replacement options. Rahane has opened in the past for the ODI side and has done will for his IPL side at the top consistently. Gautam Gambhir is trying to make a comeback and is still in the selectorial frame. Pujara too can be brought into the frame if needed.
 

forced by injury type replacements....yes....offcourse
but unforced they won't touch Rohit or Raina or Jadeja...they are all cast in stone for the W'Cup.
even if Pujara or Rahane come in they will bat at 3 .....Kohli will drop to 4.
 
the key message was Yuv is the only one under the scanner.......and I think he has 6 more games to deliver atleats 3 50+ score IMO to convince the selectors to stick to him.
 
then the core first choice players are locked.........obviously they will play others also to prepare the first line reserves in case injury strikes the first line players close to the world cup.
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Post by msp83 Mon 14 Oct 2013, 8:03 pm

KP_fan wrote:
msp83 wrote:Don't think the top 3 are all sureshots. Kohli obviously is, and Dhawan largely is. The management is hoping that Sharma will also deliver at last.
 
msp...you are hoping against hope that Sharma may not be in Very Happy ......
For the sake of Indian cricket, KPF!!!.
Seriously, I have no issues if Rohit can produce consistent substantive performances to earn his place.
Dhoni also did mention that 30s and 40s won't do enough for the team and that set batsmen should go on and score big. I hope there is a message for Sharma in there, and I really hope he produces a string of performances that can satisfy the doubters, and more importantly, provide him with a platform of confidence from which he can build on.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 14 Oct 2013, 8:10 pm

I don't see Yuvi as the only one under the scanner tbh. If he does well at 5 and Raina struggles at 4, its likely that they may not want to disturb Yuvi's batting position and pick a replacement for Raina at Number 4.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 14 Oct 2013, 8:12 pm

Why have you become such a big Raina fan, KPF?

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Post by msp83 Mon 14 Oct 2013, 8:17 pm

Dhoni's press interaction suggested that an on-form Yuvraj Singh would bat at 4 by the WC time and what is going on with Raina is a bit of an experiment. If Yuvraj finds form and consistency, then Raina might go back to the number 5/6 positions.
Bad form can catch up with anyone in the side. Think Dhoni and Kohli have a lot of accumulated capital to withstand a bit of a prolonged slump in form, everyone else are vulnerable in varying degrees.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 14 Oct 2013, 8:44 pm

So if Yuvraj does well at 5, he'd be 'rewarded' with a move up to a position which may not suit him as much, whereas if Raina fails, he gets back his favourite position again? How convenient! I just don't think both Yuvi and Raina can play in the same lineup in Aus conditions as neither has the technique to counter the moving ball, which a number 4 batsman may often have to face. The only way both can play is if Dhoni bats at 4 but it won't happen as the captain sees himself as an insurance at number 6. And neither Yuvi nor Raina can bat 4 in Australia. So IMO they're competing for one spot ie. Number 5 and personally, I'd go with Yuvi for the reasons Mike stated above. Number 4 should be occupied by a technically correct batsman. I don't understand why people feel Pujara is too slow for 4, he has a List A strike rate in the 90s and even in Test cricket, has shown that he has got an extra gear to his batting. Clarke bats at 4 for Australia in their first choice ODI side and he's hardly a dasher.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 14 Oct 2013, 8:45 pm

Agree that Kohli and Dhoni are indispensable. None of the others should be set in stone just yet though I think Dhawan, Jadeja and Bhuvi are close to being certainties.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 14 Oct 2013, 8:47 pm

lemme clarify guys:

1).there are wishes and desires that we can express.....completely open ended....whihc is OK

2) but at the same time...we must also have a discussion constrained within the bounds of reality.

in category 1) we can brainstrom and talk/ wish anything

in category 2) we are forced to discuss what is allowable...and much as I hate Ishant for example...no point discussing this as the captain and selectors want him in and we have to live with him.
and so we have to live with those already considered done-deal by selectors for the world cup.

so really the debatable positions regarding the world cup are :

1 batsman in the playing 11 ( yuv)
1 batsman in the reserves ( Rayadu)
1 seamer in the playing 11( Vinay)
1 seamer amidst the reserves( Unadkat)
1 spinner in the reesrves ( Mishra)

remianing players much as we like them or not are in the scheme of world cup barrring injuries




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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 14 Oct 2013, 9:01 pm

Unless you know Dhoni personally, I'm not really sure how you can derive that list of certainties, that too 18 months before the WC. I personally don't think Ishant should even be in contention let alone be a certainty and hopefully a few more inevitable appalling performances from him will sway the selectors.
I don't have as much of a downer on Raina as I have on Ishant and I don't have any problems with him being in the mix but don't see him as a certainty either. The jury is also out on Ashwin and Rohit IMO though Rohit deserves his spot ATM.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 14 Oct 2013, 9:22 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:Unless you know Dhoni personally, I'm not really sure how you can derive that list of certainties,
 
I do not know Dhoni or selectors personally.
the job of analysts is to read the situation before it is formally announced. Once the squad is announced then the job of analysts is finished Smile
 
and what is know in black and white is the power that Dhoni holds under srinivasan.
and the love he has shown for Rohit, rain and Ishant. giving them such extended runs ..is not hidden
and tjhe statements that he made at the conference leave little unsaid
 
 
I personally don't think Ishant should even be in contention let alone be a certainty and hopefully a few more inevitable appalling performances from him will sway the selectors.
I don't have as much of a downer on Raina as I have on Ishant and I don't have any problems with him being in the mix but don't see him as a certainty either. The jury is also out on Ashwin and Rohit IMO though Rohit deserves his spot ATM.
 
all of above falls in category-1......wishes and desire but outside the bounds of reality.
Rohit, Raina, Ishant, ashwin are all cast in stone for world cup...whether we like it or not.
 
and good planning for a mega-event does call for reducing the variables to minimum....then the focus can shift towards optimization, mental conditoning, startegizing with the core group which I believe is of 10 identified inidviduals already.
again these 10 may not be the ones we like...but those in power have pretty much locked down 10 slots and optimizing the remainder 5
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Post by msp83 Mon 14 Oct 2013, 9:27 pm

And on another track, the curators in India seem to have not understood a lot from the Australia test series early this year. It was after a long time that they managed to put together some test quality wickets during that series. But for ODIs, we continue to have wickets that are rather flat. A pitch where the spinners would get some grip if not turn would be more helpful for India.
And I think the BCCI, rather than playing pointless powergames with CSA or the commentators, should spend some energy that would end the experiment of 2 new balls in ODIs. Coupled with the additional fielder inside the circle, this rule really works against spinners.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 14 Oct 2013, 9:33 pm

msp83 wrote:And on another track, the curators in India seem to have not understood a lot from the Australia test series early this year. It was after a long time that they managed to put together some test quality wickets during that series. But for ODIs, we continue to have wickets that are rather flat. A pitch where the spinners would get some grip if not turn would be more helpful for India.
And I think the BCCI, rather than playing pointless powergames with CSA or the commentators, should spend some energy that would end the experiment of 2 new balls in ODIs. Coupled with the additional fielder inside the circle, this rule really works against spinners.
 
or msp..maybe we are missing the point.
it's a series where optimization for world cup has already begun....as clear from Dhoni's post match conefrence...of trying to find a no.4

and so they left a bit of grass on the pitch...it wasn't a flat patta but one that offered bounce and nip off the pitch to bowlers were able to hit the deck hard.
Not quite Aussie pitch but one that would test the Indian batsmen against hit the deck type bowlers....and boy wasn't yuvraj quite exposed.
 
also the India lower order get's exposed with the bat when the pitch ahs something for seam bowlers
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Post by msp83 Mon 14 Oct 2013, 9:40 pm

Perhaps the management has some solid yet flexible plans about the core group of batting. But I think the bowling positions, particularly seem bowling positions are pretty much open. Bhuvneshwar Kumar looks the most assured seamer in the lineup. Every other position is open.
As for Ishant, Dhonihas backed him in the pst and the selectors went with the skipper on it. Like the other Sharma, Ishant also has natural talent. He in fact delivered in the first couple of years of his international career. Then he lost form and picked up injuries. Therehaven't been too many options either, with Zaheer's injuries and loss of form. Praveen Kumar was the only other meaningful option along with Umesh Yadav. PK has had his injury and other issues after the England tour, and Yadav is firmly in the frame. The likes of Dinda or Shami haven't made a compelling case for themselves. Bhuvi maintained consistency and he's in the side.
Like many, I too am quite exasperated by Ishant, but don't think the skipper can be blamed for persisting with him, its partly down to his natural ability and attributes, partly down to the lack of other options. The significant difference between him and Rohit is that the 2nd part doesn't apply in the latter's case.

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Post by msp83 Mon 14 Oct 2013, 9:43 pm

KPF, planning for the WC is well and good, but they've to keep the winning habit going as well. Can't just play all your other cricket planning for the WC, England made that mistake for years, over-emphasizing the Ashes and treating every other game they play as part of planning for Ashes.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 14 Oct 2013, 10:27 pm

KPF, if you were to pick a team exclusively of your choice, what would you do?

BTW msp, I think there are quite a few good alternatives to Ishant.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 14 Oct 2013, 10:30 pm

I don't think Rohit, Raina, Ishant and Ashwin are cast in stone for the WC, especially when it is so far away. Or so I hope! I really hope your prediction of them being certainties is wrong, KPF. Don't you hope so too?

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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Tue 15 Oct 2013, 4:29 am

Rohit, I feel better fits in a test team rather than one day. He can play a part in T-20 as well.

Raina, looking at his present form, looks bit away from batting. He has not delivered for a long time. Though he was handy in some of the WC games like PAK or AUS, but don't know where he will go from here.

Ishant for me is a useless bowler. He does not know where to bowl. Though his two wickets won us the CT this year, still I am not a fan of him. For me any one except him will go.

Ashwin. He is a fine bowler but I feel lot of T-20 cricket is ruining his class.
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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 15 Oct 2013, 6:43 am

Agree with each and every word you've said, Kumar. Personally won't pick Ashwin in T20 and Ishant in any format. Raina is useless outside Asia.

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Post by msp83 Tue 15 Oct 2013, 8:30 am

subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:Rohit, I feel better fits in a test team rather than one day. He can play a part in T-20 as well.

Raina, looking at his present form, looks bit away from batting. He has not delivered for a long time. Though he was handy in some of the WC games like PAK or AUS, but don't know where he will go from here.

Ishant for me is a useless bowler. He does not know where to bowl. Though his two wickets won us the CT this year, still I am not a fan of him. For me any one except him will go.

Ashwin. He is a fine bowler but I feel lot of T-20 cricket is ruining his class.
Agree with most, but totally disagree with the first point.
Rohit doesn't have the temperament to play test cricket. Ajinkya Rahane, Manish Pandey and even Manpreet Juneja are ahead of him in my pecking order for the test side.

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Post by msp83 Tue 15 Oct 2013, 8:54 am

ShankyCricket wrote:KPF, if you were to pick a team exclusively of your choice, what would you do?

BTW msp, I think there are quite a few good alternatives to Ishant.
I am sure KPF will be at soon.
Here is what I would do.
Shikhar Dhawan.
Rohit Sharma Now I've had nearly enough of Rohit, but he has earned this series through some OK performances this year. But I would give him this series to produce something substantive consistently and if he is still in his usual ways, then I'll e done with him for good. And Cheteshwar Pujara will be my first reserve opener, closely followed by Ajinkya Rahane, with Gautam Gambhir also in the frame.
Virat Kohli
Yuvraj Singh I hope Yuvraj maintains fitness and form. If he's not quite coming through, then I'd consider Manoj Tiwary for that role, or bring any of my opening reserves to 3 and move Kohli down to 4.
Suresh Raina. If Raina losses form, then I'd consider Abhishek Nayar as the replacement.
Mahendra Singh Dhoni
Ravindra Jadeja The team need to go in with 5 bowlers under the present playing conditions, and so Jadeja, like Dhoni and Kohli is very nearly there as a sureshot. But if he stumbles on a horrer run somehow, then I'd consider Rishi Dhawan or Parwez Rasool.
Ravichandran Ashwin If Ashwin struggles in the limited over formats, then I'd look at what Amit Mishra can offer or else Rasool.
Bhuvneshwar Kumar. Bhuvi is closer to a sureshot position, hopefully he improves his end over bowling and nail down his position.
Jaydev Unadkat. His death bowling was good during IPL and he did alright in Zimbabwe. He presents a left-arm option as well.
The last position is pretty much open at the moment, with Vinay Kumar, Mohammed Shami and Ishant and Yadav in the frame. I'd also like to see how Irfan Pathan goes in this domestic season.

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Post by msp83 Tue 15 Oct 2013, 8:55 am

In the next year or so, I would give this pool of players as much game time as possible, and look at the WC squad more closely during the last 6 months.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 15 Oct 2013, 9:02 am

msp83 wrote:KPF, planning for the WC is well and good, but they've to keep the winning habit going as well. Can't just play all your other cricket planning for the WC, England made that mistake for years, over-emphasizing the Ashes and treating every other game they play as part of planning for Ashes.
Yes I agree msp...that the primary objective should be  to win and then optimize what ever extent you can without losing the primary objective.
 
 
I don't think Rohit, Raina, Ishant and Ashwin are cast in stone for the WC, especially when it is so far away. Or so I hope! I really hope your prediction of them being certainties is wrong, KPF. Don't you hope so too?
@ Shanky......
 
1) Look the holder of world cup and Champions trophy , No.1 team in the world, aspirant and one of the top favorite for 2015 world cup...cannot and should not have a complete blank slate and all open 15 or even 10/12 positions to finalize.
the core of 10 odd players should be firm by this time and only about 5 positions to be optimized....and it pretty much is the case with us...so in terms of startegy we are spot on with the progress
 
2) Now these may not be the  core of 10 that many of us want to see.......but what can we do ?
 
we have a captain who is strong minded and a trifle irrational in his likes and favourites, he has a god-father srinivasan who is an iron man controlling the world cricket ano not just Indian cricket , and most importantly Dhoni has delivered in 2013....... a 4-0 vs Aus, Chmapions Trophy , that last ball six in the triangular in WI....so he is in  a position of strength to get what he wants.
 
and given that even in weaker times when he was losing throuhg later half of 2011 and 2012 he got what he wanted......now Dhoni is in supreme control and what he wants cannot be denied.
 
You can hope that maybe one or two from the core of 10 may be dislodged......but I have no doubts Rohit, Ishant, Ashwin, Jadeja, Raina are all untouchables.
In dhoni's weak times they couldn't be touched........now it is unthinkable.
 
 
3) However given the Aussie conditions if I had a wish list my core of 10 would be diffrent...and I will list them later.
 
4) for now in reality 3 seam bowling and 2 batsmen slots are in optimitzation mode.......and one of the two batsmen would have to be a back-up keeper also.......so one of those slots will go to DK or Rayadu or by a long shot to Samson, Kaul or an Uthappa type batsman WK.
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Post by KP_fan Tue 15 Oct 2013, 9:07 am

msp83 wrote:In the next year or so, I would give this pool of players as much game time as possible, and look at the WC squad more closely during the last 6 months.

look with every passing ODI series......the aim should be to increase the fixed / confirmed positions.....and nail down the 15 a good few months before the WC...so that the last couple of series before the world cup are literally with the same squad that will feature in the WC
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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 15 Oct 2013, 12:32 pm

Okay my list

Openers

Shikhar Dhawan
Rohit Sharma

Backup : Cheteshwar Pujara, Ajinkya Rahane, Gautam Gambhir.

Number 3

Virat Kohli

Backup - Same as above. Virat's place is certain. So the backup for him is only in case of injury.

Number 4
Ajinkya Rahane/ Cheteshwar Pujara/ Ambati Rayudu

Number 5

Yuvraj Singh

Backup - Suresh Raina, Ambati Rayudu

Number 6

Mahendra Singh Dhoni

Backup - No idea. Certainly not Karthik. Very average batsman and a very ordinary keeper. Saha has a decent List A record and is a good keeper but I'm not sure his batting is dynamic enough to make an impact at 6 against quality bowling. Gautam and Uday Kaul are both more suited to the longer format Parthiv and Uthappa are both openers, not middle order batsmen and like Karthik, their keeping skills aren't anything to write home about either. So I guess we should look to groom Sanju Samson as a backup should injury befall MSD.

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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 15 Oct 2013, 12:43 pm

Allrounder

Sir Ravindra Jadeja (no pun intended, I'm a big fan Smile )

Backup - Like Virat and MS, he is indispensable and would need a real horror run for me to consider dropping him. But we must have backup anyways to cover for injuries. So I'd be looking at Parvez Rasool and Baba Aparajith (although playing the latter would probably require a slight rejig in the batting order).

Spinner

Amit Mishra

Backup : R Ashwin, Parvez Rasool, S Nadeem, Rahul Sharma and maybe even Harbhajan Singh.

Seamers

Bhuvneshwar Kumar is obviously my first choice. For the remaining 2 slots plus the backups, I'd be choosing from a pool of Praveen Kumar, Mohit Sharma, Jaidev Unadkat, Sandeep Sharma, Shami Ahmed, Dhawal Kulkarni, Varun Aaron and maybe Ishant Sharma.

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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 15 Oct 2013, 12:51 pm

Pool

Dhawan
Rohit
Pujara
Rahane
Gambhir
Kohli
Rayudu
Yuvraj
Raina
Dhoni
Jadeja
Rasool
Mishra
Ashwin
Bhuvi
Praveen
Mohit
Unadkat
Sandeep Sharma
Aaron
Kulkarni
Ishant


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Post by KP_fan Tue 15 Oct 2013, 1:14 pm

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-australia-2013-14/content/current/story/679569.html

CI screaming Headlines....India Begins Project Raina at No. 4

see Dhoni has managed to set that as an agenda...

--NOW if Raina suceeds at No. 4 in ODIs.....it will be easy for Dhoni to push Raina in the test squad at the recently vacated No. 4...citing his success in ODis

--if he fails...then Raina is simply dropped down to No.5 or 6
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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 15 Oct 2013, 1:19 pm

KPF, what is your core player wishlist?

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Post by KP_fan Tue 15 Oct 2013, 1:40 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:KPF, what is your core player wishlist?
 
given it is Australian conditions:
 
1) Rahane
2) Dhawan
3) Pujara
4) Kohli
5) Dhoni
6) Raina
7) Jadeja
8) Mishra
9) Kumar
10) yadav
this is CORE
rest are my prefernces but I can allow optimization
11) sami ahemd
 
12) Rohit can bat anywhere from 1 to 7
13) Rayadu.....strong hitter cum reserve WK
14) Mohit Sharma
15) Ishwar pandey


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Post by ShankyCricket Tue 15 Oct 2013, 1:44 pm

Raina???

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Post by KP_fan Tue 15 Oct 2013, 1:44 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:Raina???
he is a great finisher......should always bat with only 15 overs to go in an ODI or 10 overs to go in a T20
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Post by msp83 Tue 15 Oct 2013, 3:16 pm

Are you discounting Yuvraj altogether, KPF?

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Post by Guest Tue 15 Oct 2013, 4:16 pm

Hughes most likely to keep for the next game with Haddin being ruled out with that eye injury.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 15 Oct 2013, 6:01 pm

msp83 wrote:Are you discounting Yuvraj altogether, KPF?
^
from what I have seen his reflexes are gone...and gone is his patience to build innings......I see less likelihood of him making the cut----but I'd be happy to be proven wrong
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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 8:47 am

Second ODI today.
Both teams unchanged, and Australia are batting.

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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 9:26 am

Australia 27 without loss after 6 overs.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 16 Oct 2013, 9:40 am

as in th last game...Indian seamers lacking speed and penetration and Aussies opener once again to a good start.

we need seam / swing friendly conditions to be effective with the new ball
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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 9:45 am

Finch dropped by Yuvraj of Ishant when on 25 and Australian score on 38. Finch has already added a boundary, how much more would the drop cost?

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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 9:58 am

Australia 60 without loss after 13. Finch is taking his time to launch into the hyperattack mode.

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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 10:00 am

Vinay Kumar already going at 6 an over after bowling only a couple of overs.

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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 10:08 am

Just when Finch was about to open up, he's run-out through a fine throw from Suresh Raina. Finch reached his 50 with a 6 of Vinay Kumar, but then failed to beat Raina's throw next ball. Australia 74-1. Finch doubled his score from 25 to 50, and Australia almost doubled their score from 38 to 74 after that drop from Yuvraj.

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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 10:14 am

None for 32 in 8 overs from Bhuvneshwar Kumar's first spell. He went at 6 an over in his first 3 and then came back well. Hopefully he won't let those figures damaged too much at the end.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 16 Oct 2013, 10:45 am

India "up against it"
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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 11:10 am

Shane Watson's first significant contribution in the tour is cut short at a 53 ball 59 at his IPL home ground. Vinay Kumar gets the wicket, as Watson's hit found height and not enough distance so that Ishant Sharma could take a decent catch in the deep.

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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 11:13 am

At Pune, at least the spinners were keeping the runs down, here, Yuvraj is going at over 7, Ashwin at 6, and Jadeja just under 6. Vinay Kumar too is going at close to 7.

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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 11:14 am

Australia 195-2 after 34. A score of 330+ is pretty much on the cards.

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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 11:15 am

Yuvraj's last over went for 12.

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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 11:24 am

Ishant Sharma went for only 14 in his first 4 overs, he's been making up rather quickly, more than doubling the run count in the next couple of overs!!.

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Post by msp83 Wed 16 Oct 2013, 11:27 am

Jadeja back on in the powerplay and gives away 8 in his first over.

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