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WI in India

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Post by KP_fan Thu 31 Oct 2013, 10:01 am

First topic message reminder :

The Indian team was declared...Jadeja rested owing to shoulder strain?
why does he continue to bowl in the masala ODIs?
Rohit has been sneaked into the squad
 
leaving out Zaheer is a mistake.......unless they do not want to risk with Zaheer as one of the bolwers in a 4 man attack given that Jadeja is out.
 
There was no comeback for Zaheer Khan despite his five wickets in Mumbai's Ranji Trophy opener, and allrounder Ravindra Jadeja was rested because of a shoulder strain, but Ishant Sharma retained his place despite his struggle for form in recent limited-overs games. India's squad also has a spinner of each variety - an offspinner in R Ashwin, a left-armer in Pragyan Ojha and Mishra.


India's top order is fairly settled with Shikhar Dhawan and M Vijay opening, followed by Cheteshwar Pujara, Sachin Tendulkar, who will be playing his final series, and Virat Kohli. Ajinkya Rahane was the incumbent at No. 6 in the fourth Test against Australia in Delhi, but Rohit Sharma could be pushing for a Test debut after consistent limited-overs performances.


Squad: MS Dhoni (capt), Shikhar Dhawan, M Vijay, Cheteshwar Pujara, Sachin Tendulkar, Virat Kohli, R Ashwin, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Pragyan Ojha, Amit Mishra, Ajinkya Rahane, Umesh Yadav, Shami Ahmed, Rohit Sharma, Ishant Sharma.


from BCCI's website
Ravindra Jadeja has a shoulder strain. The Physiotherapist of the Indian team has advised two weeks’ rest for him, after the end of the ODI series against Australia, as a precautionary measure


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Post by KP_fan Thu 07 Nov 2013, 10:31 am

msp83 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
msp83 wrote:Remains whether Jadeja will come back at 7 for the away series. He'll certainly comeback for the home tests. Ashwin's performance here won't hamper his case one bit though he wasn't at his best with the ball. But on tracks where the spinner is supposed to contain more, I'd still prefer Jadeja over Ashwin.
 
undoubtedly India will play 5 bowlers including Jadeja.
the combined strength of Jadeja+ Ashwin with bat exceeds that of one specilaist batsmen
and Bhuvnesh can also bat.
and having 5 bowlers will give India the confidence of playing Zaheer as one of the 3 seamers
Playing 5 bowlers certainly give them a greater balance and that would also let Zak get into the mix a bit more smoothly. With Shami's emergence, I don't know where to put Yadav in. I really like the look of him, we don't often get to see an Indian seamer bowling up to 145-147 KPH, Yadav can do that, will they go in with all 4 of them and play one of Jadeja or Ashwin at 7?
sami, Yadav, Bhuvnesh and Zaheer....any 3 fit ones can play.

remeber India has 2 tests in SA, then 2 in NZ and then 5 in Eng........so merely 3 or even 4 won't suffice......one orr two of them are gonna breakdown.

I hope they quickly throw Pandey in the mix also......Ishant is least effective of the seamers in the mix
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Post by msp83 Thu 07 Nov 2013, 10:33 am

ShankyCricket wrote:
msp83 wrote:A team oppositions are not necessarly always stronger than the domestic oppositions that sides face in India. Again, it depends on the pitches and condition. I don't think we can look at the batting records of the batsmen in the 3 nation A team OD tournament in South Africa for any meaningful analysis. it was a 10 times greater disaster than the abomination that was concluded in India last week.
Msp, these stats don't include the ODIs played in SA. And you must be kidding me if you think Indian domestic attacks and pitches are tougher than what you face at 'A' team level. Anyways, Rohit can't perform under pressure. 84/5 and 156/6 on a turning pitch on test debut is a very easy situation indeed.
Rohit has certainly showed that he can actually perform under pressure situations, and that fresh information is a very good one! (fresh being the operative word). This has been his best effort in international cricket in 6 years for sure. And I do hope he builds on it rather than use it as pass for non-performance for the next 2 years.
I know the stats you provided are of first class games , I mentioned the OD series to point out that we have to at times look beyond the averages to see how the runs came in what conditions. And in the Duleep Trophy, Rahane has a better record if you've noticed.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 07 Nov 2013, 10:34 am

ShankyCricket wrote:KPF, I don't think the combined strength of Ashwin and Jadeja exceeds that of a specialist batsman in SA conditions. I really like Jadeja as a bowler but sorry, he can't play the short ball, even at home. I'm not looking forward to him facing Morkel and Steyn.
the super but unexpected success of Jadeja as a bowlers has somewhat eclipse his batting capabilites.
He has far better a batsman than he is credited.
 
he may not average 50 but is good enouhg to sustain an average of 35-40 as a test batsman over a period of time....and given that he brings flexibility of a 5th bowler.....it's a better deal than a specialist batsman averaging 40-45


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Post by msp83 Thu 07 Nov 2013, 10:35 am

Last over of the day coming up, Ashwin on 91.

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Post by msp83 Thu 07 Nov 2013, 10:40 am

Ashwin remains not out on 92, and India go to stumps at 354-6. Rohit is batting on 127, their partnership is just 2 short of 200, and India lead by 120.
So after a terrible first session, India have rested the control back.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 07 Nov 2013, 10:55 am

Nothing that I saw of Jadeja with the bat in the 5 Tests vs Eng and Aus suggested Test batting quality. He's a very good bowler but not a top 7 batter IMO.
I don't think his bowling has eclipsed his batting but rather his average of 19 and weaknesses against the short ball.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 07 Nov 2013, 11:06 am

well while I am happy for Rohit...I feel for Rahane....he is blocked out for atleast 10 tests and that too if Rohit falls.

Rahane must immediately volunteer to open for India should there be an opening.
Because that maximizes his chances given that Vijay is still also not on solid gorund.....our next 9 tests are overseas
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Post by KP_fan Thu 07 Nov 2013, 11:09 am

ShankyCricket wrote:Nothing that I saw of Jadeja with the bat in the 5 Tests vs Eng and Aus suggested Test batting quality. He's a very good bowler but not a top 7 batter IMO.
I don't think his bowling has eclipsed his batting but rather his average of 19 and weaknesses against the short ball.
you use averages selectively to suit your convenience.
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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 07 Nov 2013, 11:24 am

It seems that some people are more desperate to fit Rahane into the team than anything else.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 07 Nov 2013, 11:29 am

ShankyCricket wrote:It seems that some people are more desperate to fit Rahane into the team than anything else.
 
your entire premise is based on flawed assumptions...viz. People Hate Rohit and are desperately in Love with Rahane.
 
If desperately in love with Rahane was the criteria...it would be so easy.....drop Jadeja include Rahane....which also I do not support...for reasons explained before.
 
however my criteria here is in order of most relevant to least.
 
1) review / criticze the processes used in selections and favoritisms.
2) Discuss what's best for the Indian team
3) debate the relative form and merits of one player over another.
 
unfortunatley you directly jump to no.3 and that too with a lot of personal extreme emotion involved.
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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Thu 07 Nov 2013, 12:56 pm

Going through this forum, I find the battle between who should get chance, Rohit or Rahane.
Rahane got one but failed, we can't blame him totally, he may be under pressure at that situation, but at the same time when Rohit came to bat India was even at worse position and he took out India of that.
Looking at the caliber both has the potential to lift India's middle order and can take the chance of opening also. In my opinion I feel Rohit will take Sachin's place and selectors should look upon the future and instead of taking Rahane as a middle order they should yhink of going with him as a opener, because I feel Vijay is not going to get the success that he managed in his last series, looking his style of batting.
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Post by msp83 Thu 07 Nov 2013, 2:49 pm

I think Jadeja's 50 + First Class average or his test average of 19 do not tell the real story about him as a batsman. Jadeja averages in the early 30s in ODI cricket, and I think that is a truer reflection of his batting capabilities. I agree he has issues with short-pitched bowling when trying to score and has got out to it in ODIs. But I don't remember the Australians getting him out many times with the short ball in the test series, and towards the end of the series, Jadeja's batting was beginning to pick up a little bit of momentum. He may not have a very solid technique particularly against the moving ball, but he has scored some ODI runs in England in 2011 and has 3 triple hundreds in first class cricket, suggesting a decent tempermant. So the idea to play him at 7 and Ashwin at 8 isn't really a bad one as such, Ashwin too has a solid foundation as a batsman and in terms of technique, I often get the feeling he could be even better than Jadeja. But MS at 6, Jadeja at 7 and Ashwin at 8? With Vijay at the top? With Dhawan, Kohli and Rohit yet to play a test in South Africa? Those also are legitimate questions. Should they open with Rohit or Rahane in place of Vijay and play the all-rounder at 7? Should they go in with the all-rounder only in Indian conditions and play only one of Jadeja and Ashwin in non-subcontinent conditions? Should they introduce another upcoming seam bowling all-rounder like Rishi Dhawan for the away assignments and use him in a Jadeja like capacity?
All are interesting questions. Ideally I like the 5 batsman, wicketkeeper, all-rounder and 4 bowlers combination. With both Ashwin and Bhuvneshwar Kumar being capable bats, that might just work, provided the top order is able to do their job properly. But I can certainly understand the merits of the other position, where they might go in with the 6th batsman in place of the all-rounder. Jadeja not playing this series on obnoxious grounds haven't helped matters at all.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 07 Nov 2013, 4:14 pm

Jadeja not playing this Test has actually worked out in the end though. We did manage to bowl them out cheaply anyways but I can't really imagine Jadeja playing the knock that Rohit did today. Of course, Jadeja could yet have and probably should've played ahead of Ojha but thats a different debate. I think its safe to say that without the extra batsman, our batting would've been in doldrums today. If we're needing the number 6 to rescue us at home against WI, the idea of us being able to get away with playing only 5 specialist batsmen against SA in SA does seem rather fanciful. A bowling attack of Zaheer, Bhuvi and Shami, backed up by a decent spinner could yet suffice on those SA green tops but a batting lineup consisting of only 5 specialist batsmen, one of which is likely to be Murali Vijay, is a recipe for disaster.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 07 Nov 2013, 4:32 pm

Rishi Dhawan could've been an option had he played some limited overs cricket for India or at least been a part of the India A setup. At present, he's just too much of an unknown quantity to take directly on a Test tour to SA.
And I honestly don't see the need for 2 spinners in the side in SA, especially considering the venues. Jo'burg and Durban are the two quickest and bounciest tracks in SA and maybe even in the world as Oz tracks have slowed down a little. If there were Tests at Port Elizabeth, East London or Cape Town (which is unpredictable. I've seen tracks at Cape Town ranging from a green top for the SA-Aus 47 all out Test in 2011 to slow, low turners such as for the SA-Pak Test earlier this year, where Peterson and Ajmal ran riot), 2 spinners could still have been considered but at Jo'burg and Durban, its surplus to requirements.

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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Thu 07 Nov 2013, 4:59 pm

msp83 wrote:I think Jadeja's 50 + First Class average or his test average of 19 do not tell the real story about him as a batsman. Jadeja averages in the early 30s in ODI cricket, and I think that is a truer reflection of his batting capabilities. I agree he has issues with short-pitched bowling when trying to score and has got out to it in ODIs. But I don't remember the Australians getting him out many times with the short ball in the test series, and towards the end of the series, Jadeja's batting was beginning to pick up a little bit of momentum. He may not have a very solid technique particularly against the moving ball, but he has scored some ODI runs in England in 2011 and has 3 triple hundreds in first class cricket, suggesting a decent tempermant. So the idea to play him at 7 and Ashwin at 8 isn't really a bad one as such, Ashwin too has a solid foundation as a batsman and in terms of technique, I often get the feeling he could be even better than Jadeja. But MS at 6, Jadeja at 7 and Ashwin at 8? With Vijay at the top? With Dhawan, Kohli and Rohit yet to play a test in South Africa? Those also are legitimate questions. Should they open with Rohit or Rahane in place of Vijay and play the all-rounder at 7? Should they go in with the all-rounder only in Indian conditions and play only one of Jadeja and Ashwin in non-subcontinent conditions? Should they introduce another upcoming seam bowling all-rounder like Rishi Dhawan for the away assignments and use him in a Jadeja like capacity?
All are interesting questions. Ideally I like the 5 batsman, wicketkeeper, all-rounder and 4 bowlers combination. With both Ashwin and Bhuvneshwar Kumar being capable bats, that might just work, provided the top order is able to do their job properly. But I can certainly understand the merits of the other position, where they might go in with the 6th batsman in place of the all-rounder. Jadeja not playing this series on obnoxious grounds haven't helped matters at all.
I feel if we closely examine the condition of SA and the pace attack they have, I feel Jadeja does not fits in the squad. Well I do respect his wonderful performance this year, but in SA conditions will not be the same as was in India during Aussies tour this year, where he claimed 22 wickets. If we look upto him as a batsman then also it would be unfair to the team, because his ability to play against quality pace attack and that too on seam favoring pitches is pathetic. I would prefer India to go with 7-4 combo. 6 batsmen 1 w/k and 4 bowlers, and for me Ashwin deserver the place with three decent spinners. Ashwin, the tall man can bat well even on bouncy and turning tracks, well if we remembers his innings in Australia. So we can have a man from bowling squad to bat at no. 8, and MS Dhoni batting at no. 7 instead of 6, so that we could add one extra batsman.
I will not back a medium pacer all rounder also, because on fast pitches their medium pace will do no damage to SA batsmen. And a specialist batsmen can bat better than them.
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Post by msp83 Thu 07 Nov 2013, 5:53 pm

Shanky, Wasn't it at Durban that Rangana Herath bowled Sri Lanka to a win a couple of years ago? And I seem to remember Graeme Swann too having a successful test there. AB and Amla are among the best players of spin in the world, but the rest of the lineup, particularly the likes of Duminy and Petersen aren't really good against spin bowling. They aren't even quite like English batsmen like Ian Bell who can play spin well on non-spinning conditions though he can't put bat to ball if there is any life for the spinner. But yeah, ultimately, the inexperience of the batting and the rather unstable opening combo due to Vijay's presence means that India might be better off with an additional batsman. I really hope they give Rishi Dhawan an opening in the ODI side soon. Perhaps they can try him in place of Raina or Yuvraj Singh.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 07 Nov 2013, 9:10 pm


Off-course....if someone takes the best 10 innings ( out of 110 total matcehs) of Rohit and ignores all his feet rooted to the crease tame and technically flawed dismissals

and compares them to the worst 10 innings of Jadeja( from a total of 86 matches) and ignores all his gems coming at difficult No.7..then obviously the former will look better than the latter.

Ha Ha Ha laughing 


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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 07 Nov 2013, 9:13 pm

Yeah, Herath, Swann and Bhajji have had success at Durban in recent times. But I wouldn't expect them to give us the slow turners that they had against England in 2009 or against SL in 2011. Bhajji's wickets came on a raging green top (which is why I'm still so keen on him if he keeps up his form) as he utilised the extra bounce to lethal effect. But its worth bearing in mind that in each of the 3 cases, they were the sole spinner in their respective side, which suggests, to me, at least that one spinner should suffice. With two spinners in the side, the wickets that a single spinner would've taken would probably be shared among them but ultimately, I don't think thats necessarily gonna bowl the opposition out for a lower score. And its the final score that matters at the end of the day, not the distribution of wickets among various bowlers, isn't it? To take wickets in SA, we need to bowl 60 overs of seam bowling in a day (say, 20 from each of the 3 seamers) which leaves you with 30 spinners of spin, which a single spinner can easily manage. Now having a 2nd spinner to "share" those 30 overs with your 1st choice spinner adds "variety" to the attack. All that sounds good in theory but is it really gonna help you bowl the opposition cheaper? And if so, by what margin? Maybe 5-10 runs on average? Is that enough to negate the potential advantage to be gained by playing an extra batter not just capable of averaging 40+ with the bat himself but more so, one that enables one of your top 5 batsmen to form an additional partnership with a proper batter? The benefit of having a specialist batsman at 6 ahead of an extra bowler is not just confined to the extra runs he himself would score as compared to the bowler but also the fact that one of your top 5 batsmen, who's still at the crease at the fall of the 4th wicket, can also score more runs as the chances of him being left "stranded" at one end are lower due to presence of an extra specialist batsman in the side.

All things considered, I just don't think there is much gain in weakening the batting lineup at the expense of an extra bowler, who's not likely to help in skittling the opposition for a lower score anyway.

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Post by ShankyCricket Thu 07 Nov 2013, 9:37 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Off-course....if someone takes the best 10 innings ( out of 110 total matcehs) of Rohit and ignores all his feet rooted to the crease tame and technically flawed dismissals

and compares them to the worst 10 innings of Jadeja( from a total of 86 matches) and ignores all his gems coming at difficult No.7..then obviously the former will look better than the latter.

Ha Ha Ha laughing 


Not sure anyone compared their respective ODI performances. And you don't need to look at Rohit's 10 best innings or Jadeja's 10 worst innings to decide who is better. Even if you look at their overall records, Rohit has a better average than Jadeja although its silly to compare the averages of an opener to that of a number 7 batsman in ODI cricket and has very little relevance to their Test prospects, where they've got completely different roles. Batting at 7 in Test cricket is a completely different ball game to batting in the last 10 overs of an ODI. Not even sure why you're comparing their respective ODI batting stats. Apples and oranges springs to mind.

If you're genuinely trying to imply that you consider Jadeja to be a better Test batting prospect than Rohit, I feel for you.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 08 Nov 2013, 5:43 am

ShankyCricket wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Off-course....if someone takes the best 10 innings ( out of 110 total matcehs) of Rohit and ignores all his feet rooted to the crease tame and technically flawed dismissals

and compares them to the worst 10 innings of Jadeja( from a total of 86 matches) and ignores all his gems coming at difficult No.7..then obviously the former will look better than the latter.

Ha Ha Ha laughing 


Not sure anyone compared their respective ODI performances. And you don't need to look at Rohit's 10 best innings or Jadeja's 10 worst innings to decide who is better. Even if you look at their overall records, Rohit has a better average than Jadeja although its silly to compare the averages of an opener to that of a number 7 batsman in ODI cricket and has very little relevance to their Test prospects, where they've got completely different roles. Batting at 7 in Test cricket is a completely different ball game to batting in the last 10 overs of an ODI. Not even sure why you're comparing their respective ODI batting stats. Apples and oranges springs to mind.

If you're genuinely trying to imply that you consider Jadeja to be a better Test batting prospect than Rohit, I feel for you.
averages....you again jumped to averages?
who talked about averages or stats?

you were talking about Jadeja----weakness to short( visual impression)...not looking like a test No.7 batsman.

well if you look at Jadeja's 10 worst innings( visual impressions) coming at No 7......and ignore the 90 ugly looking innings of Rohit...then obviously Jadeja would look worse.

Test matches......neitehr has played long enough for us to form an opinion......and neitehr has had a test in pacy / bouncy conditions.

we haven't seen enough of eitehr of them in FC cricket to form a visual impression.

so the only "visual impression" available are in ODIs...where one has played 86 and the other 108 games
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Post by msp83 Fri 08 Nov 2013, 7:37 am

Rohit Sharma's 177 and Ravichandran Ashwin's 124 helpd Indiascore 453 in their first innings, a very handy first innings lead of 219. Chris Gayle came out all guns blazing 2nd time round and played some powerful shots, but then he played one too many shots and yet again fell to his tormentor Bhuvneshwar Kumar for 33. Since then, Kieran Powell, who took some time to get going, and Darren Bravo have been together, taking the West Indies score to 77-1. In between, Powell was dropped by Bhuvneshwar of Ojha when he was on 7. This is the 3rd catch that has gone down of Ojha's bowling in this test. Powell has now moved on to 26.

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Post by msp83 Fri 08 Nov 2013, 8:16 am

Umpire Long having a terrible game. He gave Tendulkar out when the ball was comfortably going over the stumps, his call to give Virat Kohli was at best
inconclusive and he gave Rohit Sharma out LBW when the ball seemed to be missing the stumps. He then gave Kieran Powell not out on an LBW appeal from
Sachin Tendulkar and he awarded runs to the batsman when there was no bat involved. Powell got out eventually to R Ashwin LBW for 36. But umpire Long wasn't done, he gave Marlon Samuels LBW of Mohammed Shami. It was a terrific delivery from Shami that came in from outside off, but it was doing too much and would have missed leg stump.
Is he intent on showing the ICC in a good light for appointing Tony Hill to the elite panel?
And is Mr. Srinivasan watching this?
West Indies go to tea at 112-3. Chanderpaul in familiar position, having to rescue the side from yet another corner. Darren Bravo is batting on 35.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 08 Nov 2013, 8:17 am

It's OK msp....the umpire is consistent.

at lest there is no DRS drama
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Post by msp83 Fri 08 Nov 2013, 8:26 am

The umpire is consistent, but consistently poor. And not sure substandard umpiring is good for the game. If they, the ICC use their heads, DRS could be quite handy but alas.........

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Post by KP_fan Fri 08 Nov 2013, 9:11 am

msp83 wrote:The umpire is consistent, but consistently poor. And not sure substandard umpiring is good for the game. If they, the ICC use their heads, DRS could be quite handy but alas.........
less inconsistency then DRS.

Windies 5 down now are trying to take a day off tomm Very Happy 
Spinners are reversers are making life miserable for Windies...and you can cleary see how B. Kumar is handicapped once the shine is gone.

Any of Zaheer or Yadav would have gotten the ball to reverse.

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Post by msp83 Fri 08 Nov 2013, 9:30 am

Shami has had a very impressive debut. He can generate good pace, gets the ball to do a little bit when it is new, and he's been quite handy with the old ball, reversing it both ways. He undid Ramdin with reverse after tea, and Ravichandran Ashwin got a bit of extra bounce that got Darren Bravo to play a loose shot that ended up with Rohit Sharma at point. Chanders is still fighting on and the West Indies skipper has been trying to support him. Sammy had a bit of luck going his way when Murali Vijay couldn't hold on to a tough chance of Ashwin, but Sammy has so far shown greater common sense than he usually does when batting.

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Post by msp83 Fri 08 Nov 2013, 9:46 am

Well well well!!. This lad Mohammed Shami!. A very exciting prospect for India indeed. The guy can reverse it massively. He has taken out Darren Sammy with one that came in miles and repeated the dose to Shane Shillingford 2 balls later. He very nearly had Veerasammy Permaul next ball but the umpire didn't oblige, but never mind Permaul was sleeping while the Indians were appealing and the Indian captain was alert to spot that and ran him out. West Indies collapsing from 152-5 to 152-8.

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Post by msp83 Fri 08 Nov 2013, 10:00 am

Tino went for the windows and found deep midwicket. Ashwin gets his 3rd and India are closing in on an innings win.

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Post by msp83 Fri 08 Nov 2013, 10:14 am

India win by an innings and 51 runs. They win on day 3. Fabulous performance from Mohammed Shami who burst through Sheldon Cottrell to take a 5for on debut and finish the match with 9 wickets.
Shivnarine Chanderpaul, West Indies' lone warrior remained not out on 31. Shami was outstanding, Ashwin bowled well. But it was a very disappointing batting performance from the West Indies. Other than the first session yesterday, and to some extent the first session on day one, they have been completely outplayed.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 08 Nov 2013, 10:53 am

After they lost the top 4 or 5....Gayle the Boss sent the message....no point in hanging around anotehr day...let's finish it today and party tonight in Kolakata ( he knows well as he was a KKR I think).
 
The ineffectiveness of Ojha on a spinning pitch was badly exposed......as did Shami expose what B.Kumar is missing and what a faster reversing bowler could do.
 
India could mop out lowly WI with 2 bowlers only...but when taking on SA and Eng that they are due to in the next 6 months.......all guns must be blazing.......Zaheer, Yadav and Jadeja back would make this a world class attack..
 
 
Shami Ahemd 9-fer and Ashwin ( 100 + 5-fer) were stornger contenders for the MoM....but that's a minor abberation in an otherwise excellent game for India.
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Post by KP_fan Fri 08 Nov 2013, 10:59 am

I believe India has risen to No.2 today in test rankings.......so far they were equal on points with England
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Post by msp83 Fri 08 Nov 2013, 11:24 am

Shami had 6 batsmen bowled and one LBW out of the 9 wickets!.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 08 Nov 2013, 11:49 am

msp83 wrote:Shami had 6 batsmen bowled and one LBW out of the 9 wickets!.
a Lucky selection...imagine the plight of India if it were Ishant .


In my view...Zaheer, Yadav and Shami should be preserved for tests.........let Vinay and ishant play ODIs
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Post by ShankyCricket Fri 08 Nov 2013, 12:56 pm

Vinay and Ishant play ODIs? You're not interested in retaining the WC?

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Post by KP_fan Fri 08 Nov 2013, 1:28 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:Vinay and Ishant play ODIs? You're not interested in retaining the WC?
Does ODIs means "Only World Cup"
I was alluding more to the patta-hitting-feast that we just witnessed against Aus
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Post by ShankyCricket Fri 08 Nov 2013, 1:41 pm

Preservation for Tests is all well and good but shouldn't completely ignore ODIs. Should do what Eng and SA do with Anderson and Steyn respectively and rest the test seamers in some of the ODI series rather than completely sidelining them from that format. I don't think Yadav is in our best ODI team anyway but Shami probably is, so his workload will have to be managed. I'd suggest he's rested for all the subcontinental ODIs as whichever seamer plays, he's gonna get hammered anyway, so its rather pointless. I'd play him in the ODI series in SA, NZ England, the pre-WC tri series in Australia and then of course the WC. Rest him for the upcoming ODIs against WI, Asia Cup and whichever team we host next season (according to the FTP, its WI but because we're playing them now, BCCI may cancel that and call another team). Zaheer should only play the pre-WC tri series in Aus and the WC. Yadav shouldn't be a part of the ODI side. Lacks control.
But even when the likes of Shami and Zaheer are rested, there's no need to go to Vinay and Ishant. I'd look at the likes of Varun Aaron (if fit), Mohit Sharma, Sandeep Sharma, Awana and a few others. Of course, there's Bhuvi too who should play all formats IMO.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 08 Nov 2013, 1:46 pm

Shanky,
I agree....we do not need to side-line our main bowlers completely.
We need to have some prepratory series for World Cup......i.e in more balanced conditions etween bat and bowl...such as when we will play ODIs in SA, NZ ( i dunno if there are ODIs) and in Eng.
we can rotate between main bowlers and second string seamers.

My comment about not wasting the main bowlers was for the Patta-Pitches as see vs. Aus and I doubt if they would be much diffrent vs. WI in ODIs eitehr
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Post by ShankyCricket Fri 08 Nov 2013, 1:54 pm

KP_fan wrote:After they lost the top 4 or 5....Gayle the Boss sent the message....no point in hanging around anotehr day...let's finish it today and party tonight in Kolakata ( he knows well as he was a KKR I think).
 
The ineffectiveness of Ojha on a spinning pitch was badly exposed......as did Shami expose what B.Kumar is missing and what a faster reversing bowler could do.
 
India could mop out lowly WI with 2 bowlers only...but when taking on SA and Eng that they are due to in the next 6 months.......all guns must be blazing.......Zaheer, Yadav and Jadeja back would make this a world class attack..
 
 
Shami Ahemd 9-fer and Ashwin ( 100 + 5-fer) were stornger contenders for the MoM....but that's a minor abberation in an otherwise excellent game for India.
B Kumar may not be the perfect bowler in these conditions but I'd still very much have him in my team for the first Test against South Africa. He's easily the best new ball bowler we have and unlike in India, where the old ball is the best time to bowl for the seamers, it is imperative to strike with the new Kookaburra ball overseas. The first 25 overs are the best time to get wickets with the Kookaburra and Bhuvi is easily the best exponent of conventional swing we have. Of course, Shami walks into the side after his performance today. So the 3rd seamer's slot is a battle between Zaheer and Yadav and I'd definitely select Zaheer due to his experience, form and control. Yadav can be a like for like backup for Shami whereas Ishwar Pandey or Mohit Sharma should cover for Zaheer and Bhuvi.

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Post by ShankyCricket Fri 08 Nov 2013, 1:59 pm

KP_fan wrote:Shanky,
I agree....we do not need to side-line our main bowlers completely.
We need to have some prepratory series for World Cup......i.e in more balanced conditions etween bat and bowl...such as when we will play ODIs in SA, NZ ( i dunno if there are ODIs) and in Eng.
we can rotate between main bowlers and second string seamers.

My comment about not wasting the main bowlers was for the Patta-Pitches as see vs. Aus and I doubt if they would be much diffrent vs. WI in ODIs eitehr
Yep. Isn't that what I said anyway? Rest them for the subcontinental ODIs as the bowlers are a non-entity over here anyways. Just pack the side with spinners and part timers rather than wasting the main fast bowlers.

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Post by msp83 Fri 08 Nov 2013, 2:20 pm

I hope they give the likes of Rishi Dhawan and Ishwar Pandey an opening to international cricket in the limited over formats. It would be a great help if those games are played on proper cricket tracks rather than highways. Dhawan's domestic record as a seam bowling all-rounder is very good, if he could get himself going at the international level, then nothing like it. Pandey has good attributes for a quick bowler and has earned most of his wickets on flat roads. He has done well with the A team, he should get some game time in ODIs and squad time in tests pretty soon. Vinay Kumar should be left alone to lead Karnataka. Ishant should be send back to domestic cricket and reassessed perhaps a season down the line.

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Post by Guest Fri 08 Nov 2013, 6:11 pm

well that was dire from the west indies!! 

my 1st test ratings

INDIA

Vijay- 5
Dhawan-6
Pujara-6
Tendulkar-4 
Kohli-5
Rohit-10 (dream test debut)
Dhoni- 6
Ashwin- 10
B.Kumar-5
Shami- 9
Ojha-7

WINDIES

Gayle-6
Powell-5
Bravo-6
Samuels-7
Chanderpaul-7 (the more i watch the windies the more i feel sorry for shiv!)
Ramdin-4 (not a test match no6)
Sammy-3
Shillingford-9
Permaul-7
Best-7
Cottrell-6

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Post by msp83 Fri 08 Nov 2013, 7:06 pm

CF wrote:well that was dire from the west indies!! 

my 1st test ratings

INDIA

Vijay- 5
Dhawan-6
Pujara-6
Tendulkar-4 
Kohli-5
Rohit-10 (dream test debut)
Dhoni- 6
Ashwin- 10
B.Kumar-5
Shami- 9
Ojha-7

WINDIES

Gayle-6
Powell-5
Bravo-6
Samuels-7
Chanderpaul-7 (the more i watch the windies the more i feel sorry for shiv!)
Ramdin-4 (not a test match no6)
Sammy-3
Shillingford-9
Permaul-7
Best-7
Cottrell-6
Did you watch the test match? The ratings are quite typical........

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Post by KP_fan Fri 08 Nov 2013, 8:43 pm

Ratings are too tedious...Iwould limit myself to winners and losers...

winners for India:

--shami ahmed
--Ashwin
--Rohit

reasons obvious

Losers

--B.Kumar...shami exposed his limitations in Indian conditions and i won't be surprised if Yadav is back for next game

--Ojha.....sorry figure.....Mishra will play next game

Vijay..missed an easy pitch to consolidate himself....because he is always under trial.

WI....I really don't care.....because they really don't care for test cricket.
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Post by msp83 Fri 08 Nov 2013, 9:33 pm

KPF, I am not sure they'll be making too many changes to the team. Don't really see Mishra in. I want Yadav to be involved, but I do value Bhuvneshwar with his new ball skills. And considering the team combination, I'd stick with Kumar and Shami for now and keep reassessing it regularly.
As for South Africa, think I'd go in with Zaheer and Shami, and will have Bhuvneshwar at Durban as there is a greater of the ball swing and Bhuvi is India's best bet in that scenario and Umesh for the Wanderers as the pitch would favor bowlers who can hit the pitch hard at pace more than the swingers.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 09 Nov 2013, 6:33 am

a good report from wisdenindia....over the top farewell



A farewell to the nonsense too
 
Suresh Menon
 |
 9 November 2013

Mumbai might be different from Kolkata, but there is still the threat of yet another over-the-top farewell. © BCCI

Cricket is not only greater than its greatest player, it is also smarter than its craziest administrators. The trashy, kitschy, embarrassing Bollywood-style send-off to Sachin Tendulkar envisaged by the Cricket Association of Bengal was stymied by India’s three-day win. Perhaps there is a god after all!

Two more days and we would have had all those masks and 199 kgs of rose petals and Amitabh Bachchan and Shah Rukh Khan and speeches by Mamata Banerjee (who, however, managed to present her painting to Sachin) and doubtless a one-act play by the Kolkata Police chief (what was he doing at the awards ceremony at the end of the match along with his sidekick?).

Sachin didn’t escape everything though. There was that wax statue of him, which appeared like a poorly disguised lookalike whose fixed smile suggested he had just done something embarrassing. Publicity is the name of the game and jumping on the bandwagon is how it is played.

Subtlety and class were never going to be the theme of Sachin’s farewell, and it says something about the man’s enormous patience and ability to tolerate nonsense that he put on a brave smile through all this. Mumbai might be different, but there is still the threat of yet another over-the-top farewell.

This West Indies team is probably the weakest to have toured India. Also the least fit. And, from what we could see on the field, the least united. While Rohit Sharma and Ravi Ashwin were taking the attack apart, the two senior players and former captains Chris Gayle and Shiv Chanderpaul were not only not consulted, they seemed to be just going through the motions. Even at their best, the West Indies have not always been a team of great friends who supported one another, but there was enough professional pride (and cricketing talent) to see them through difficult situations.

And then there is the matter of Shane Shillingford. He has been reported for chucking before. His rehabilitation programme is complete. And yet, and yet. His flexion may well be within the prescribed 15-degree limit (it was 17 degrees when he was reported), and every man is entitled to a second chance. But if there is the slightest doubt over his action, are the umpires sufficiently primed to report him? Chucking stopped being a cricketing problem long ago and is a political one now. At any rate, we should consider a ban on long sleeves for offspinners.

The West Indies team is a house divided. The captain, a fine gentleman with an impressive worldview, sadly does not seem good enough as a player. There is experience in the side – Chanderpaul was playing his 149th Test – but little guidance. As the batting was going down the tube in the second innings, Chanderpaul’s pathetic attempts to avoid strike and remain unbeaten was not only selfish but pointed to a much larger problem within the team.

India won a Test match in three days, which is good. What is not so good is that it is hardly preparation for the tougher tests ahead – in South Africa, New Zealand and England. Batting and bowling figures get exaggerated, and the team gets an unreal sense of its own strength.

And so to Mumbai and the final farewell. Ironically, the lack of pressure might be the pressure that Tendulkar actually faces. India cannot lose the series, he has nothing to prove, there will be no calls for his head.

But cricket is a funny game, as Kolkata showed. What will the CAB do with the rose petals now? Sell them at a discount to the Mumbai Cricket Association?
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Post by msp83 Sat 09 Nov 2013, 7:45 am

Darren Sammy's place in the side has been a subject of some serious debates in these forums. I have been in the minority that believed he doesn't deserve his place in the side and the idea of him being an outstanding leader who has brought about remarkable improvements to the side are highly exaggerated. He had a decent series against Australia where West Indies had their moments but eventually lost, they did the same in India a couple of years ago. They had a hard-earned series win against Bangladesh won against New Zealand at home and thrashed Zimbabwe too. Under Chris Gayle, they had similar moments of success and the players responded to Gayle's leadership much better. Sammy at best is a 5th bowler and number 8 batsman. His presence adversely impacts the side's balance, and whatever he brings as leader is not good enough to overcome that. He did show signs of improving as a batsman last year, but mostly his batting has been rather reckless and irresponsible for a test batsman.
But Sammy is a reality that the West Indies team has to live with, think they should bring in Narsingh Deonarine in place of Veerasammy Permaul who looked largely ineffective in the first game. Deonarine had a decent A team tour of India last month, and he is a handy customer with the ball as well. Denesh Ramdin, who too is more of a number 8 batsman, is batting far too high at 6.

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Post by KP_fan Sat 09 Nov 2013, 8:03 am

msp...I have been of the same opinion.
 
that Sammy doesn't deserve a place in the playing-11 inpsite of all the hype about his motivational captaincy.
 
The fact is WI would normally win against BD, Zim all the time and against NZ in spinning conditions.
 
Dwayne Bravo or Andre Russell are much more value for money allrounders...for tests....the former is as good as a specialist batsmen and better than Sammy as a bowler.

the latter is as good as a specilaiuts fast bowler and no less than sammy as a batsman.
 
Neverthless replacemement of Sammy ain't gonna change anything in their test match standings.....the Windies just do not care about long, tedious low paying test matches...they have happily adopted T20 as their main way of life going forward......they are the prized buys in IPL and other leagues...and no surprisingly world champions in T20.
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Post by KP_fan Sat 09 Nov 2013, 2:32 pm

Ashwin with 740 test runs and 97 wickets is in sight of Botham's record for the fastest 1000/100 double.

while wickets won't be a challange getting remaining 260 runs is where he will race against time
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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Sat 09 Nov 2013, 4:24 pm

In how many tests did Botham scored 1000 Test runs?
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Post by KP_fan Sat 09 Nov 2013, 4:47 pm

subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:In how many tests did Botham scored 1000 Test runs?
21 tests he got the double...not sure if the 1000th run came later or the 100th wicket
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