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Tottenham 'irresponsible' over Hugo Lloris head injury

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:44 am

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brain injury charity Headway said the club showed an "irresponsible and cavalier attitude" to Lloris's health

Spokesman Luke Griggs added: "When a player - or any individual - suffers a blow to the head that is severe enough for them to lose consciousness, it is vital they urgently seek appropriate medical attention.

"A physio or doctor treating a player on pitch simply cannot accurately gauge the severity of the damage caused to the player's brain in such a setting as there may be delayed presentation of symptoms.

"By continuing to play, the player may have caused greater damage to his brain. He should have been removed from the game immediately and taken to hospital for thorough tests and observation.

Spurs boss Andre Villas-Boas defended the decision to let Lloris return.

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Post by Guest on Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:20 pm

Can't believe this is still being debated. Yeah, he should of gone off but if Lloris felt he was okay, was making the argument & wanted to continue, despite being told otherwise by the doctors, then as far as I'm concerned, it's his fault if he continued & suffered further injury or bleeding while playing on. It's always a blame game this world, someone to blame for everything. It's a contact sport, do we see brain charities complaining everytime a punch is thrown in boxing. No.

Lets me guess manadatory 'Cech' helmets in the next F.A proposal.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:25 pm

Comparisons to boxing are surely invalid in this case.

If a boxer is knocked out for a minute or two, you don't give him 7 minutes to recover, before waving play on.

And surely Lloris, a man who has just sustained a rather painful blow to the head, is not in the best shape to make a call on whether or not he should play on?

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:30 pm

Duty281 wrote:Comparisons to boxing are surely invalid in this case.

If a boxer is knocked out for a minute or two, you don't give him 7 minutes to recover, before waving play on.

And surely Lloris, a man who has just sustained a rather painful blow to the head, is not in the best shape to make a call on whether or not he should play on?


Exactly, the guy just suffered a head injury and was in no condition to make the correct judgement. Tottenham should have taken the decision for him and subbed him.


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Post by Marky on Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:24 am

FFS.

Tottenham were concerned enough to have Friedel ready to come on. AVB was concerned as were the medical staff. Had Lloris not deemed himself fit and run back onto the pitch, we wouldn't be talking about this. If anyone has been irresponsible, it's Hugo Lloris and nobody else. Now let the fraking story go.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:49 am

Marky wrote:FFS.

Tottenham were concerned enough to have Friedel ready to come on. AVB was concerned as were the medical staff. Had Lloris not deemed himself fit and run back onto the pitch, we wouldn't be talking about this. If anyone has been irresponsible, it's Hugo Lloris and nobody else. Now let the fraking story go.
Are you serious, you are removing Tottenham from any blame even though they allowed a player to continue to play after he had sustained a head injury which resulted in him losing conscousness for over a minute?

At the end of the day it is up to Tottenham who they want to put on the pitch and not up to Lloris. Tottenham gave Lloris permission to continue playing and so if any injury happened to Lloris it would be Tottenham who would have the burden of fault.

Tottenham were concerned enough to want to sub Lloris for Friedal, they were concerned enough to get a pitch side doctor to examine Lloris and they were concerned enough to send Lloris off to hospital for brain scans AFTER the game. Clearly Tottenham were concerned about Lloris' health so the question has to be asked why did tottenham allow Lloris to continue playing after suffering a head injury resulting in loss of conscousness for over a minute? Your reason that tottenham let Lloris continue playing because Lloris said he was fine is not good enough and would not remove tottenham from any blame if more permanent damage was caused to lloris due to him not getting the needed medical attention straight away.

Tottenham risked the safety of Lloris by giving him permission to continue to play. Tottenham were irresponsible.

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Post by Guest on Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:44 am

John wrote:Can't believe this is still being debated. Yeah, he should of gone off but if Lloris felt he was okay, was making the argument & wanted to continue, despite being told otherwise by the doctors, then as far as I'm concerned, it's his fault if he continued & suffered further injury or bleeding while playing on. It's always a blame game this world, someone to blame for everything. It's a contact sport, do we see brain charities complaining everytime a punch is thrown in boxing. No.Lets me guess manadatory 'Cech' helmets in the next F.A proposal.
Er, yes you do. These charities are some of the most outspoken opponents of boxing. We've had another incident at the weekend where a HW boxer has been placed in a medically incuded coma after suffering head injuries.

Thing is, more people are seriously injured playing Rugby but there isn't nearly the uproar there is when a footballer is hurt. We're also happy to let grown men zoom around a race track at insane speeds with nothing but a rabbit's foot and our best wishes for protection.

Speaking of protection, I notice people mention Cech style helmets. Not the answer, injury is caused to the brain when it connects with the skull ON THE INSIDE. I don't yet know of an artificial way to protect the brain from the inside so fail to see how a spongy hat will help. Any impact on the brain causes the loss of brain cells...in fact, there's likely to be a few lost every time a player heads the ball....are we going to outlaw that aspect of the game as well?

No doubt when Hugo Lloris passes away at the ripe old age of 87, someone will say "You know what, if Spurs hadn't kept him on the pitch he'd have made it to 89 or more!"

Anyway, the real reason they kept him on the pitch was that if Everton had scored they'd need all three subs as outfield players to try and claw back another goal. Nothing to do with Lloris making a personal choice, Spurs decided they couldn't risk "wasting" a substitute on a bloke who said he was fine.

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Post by dummy_half on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:51 pm

Dave

Good point re the Cech-style helmets, more commonly known as a scrum cap. They are worn in rugby to minimise the risk of injuries from cuts and similar, but offer very little protection against concussion type injuries - probably any (small) benefit from dispersing the force if impact is negated by the perception of invulnerability you get when wearing one and so being more williing to put you head somewhere it is likely to get whacked

One further thing though is that Lloris is by far not the first player this year to be knoked out but then recover and play on - he's not even tottenham's first, as Townsend was KO'd the other week when he went over the advertising hordings and into the photographers. Not sure why this is the particular case that has people up in arms.

It probably is sensible to introduce a protocol whereby players who are knocked out on the pitch are substituted automatically, and that this does not count amongst the three substitutions (since it is forced by protocol rather than injury or tactics).

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Post by Guest on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:58 pm

dummy_half wrote:Dave

Good point re the Cech-style helmets, more commonly known as a scrum cap. They are worn in rugby to minimise the risk of injuries from cuts and similar, but offer very little protection against concussion type injuries - probably any (small) benefit from dispersing the force if impact is negated by the perception of invulnerability you get when wearing one and so being more williing to put you head somewhere it is likely to get whacked

One further thing though is that Lloris is by far not the first player this year to be knoked out but then recover and play on - he's not even tottenham's first, as Townsend was KO'd the other week when he went over the advertising hordings and into the photographers. Not sure why this is the particular case that has people up in arms.

It probably is sensible to introduce a protocol whereby players who are knocked out on the pitch are substituted automatically, and that this does not count amongst the three substitutions (since it is forced by protocol rather than injury or tactics).
No doubt this would be subject to abuse and any manager with a player performing badly will give him a pre-arranged signal to go down "injured" at the earliest opportunity and get him off without jeopardising the team's chances by wasting a sub. Quite how they'll fake a head injury is something I'll leave up to them but if it's executed as well as some of the other simulation we've seen over the years, I think there'll be a few more red cards shown.

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:03 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
brain injury charity Headway said the club showed an "irresponsible and cavalier attitude" to Lloris's health

Spokesman Luke Griggs added: "When a player - or any individual - suffers a blow to the head that is severe enough for them to lose consciousness, it is vital they urgently seek appropriate medical attention.

"A physio or doctor treating a player on pitch simply cannot accurately gauge the severity of the damage caused to the player's brain in such a setting as there may be delayed presentation of symptoms.

"By continuing to play, the player may have caused greater damage to his brain. He should have been removed from the game immediately and taken to hospital for thorough tests and observation.

Spurs boss Andre Villas-Boas defended the decision to let Lloris return.

I'm not altogether sure that all this fuss shouldn't be taken with a massive pinch of salt.   Not that concussion isn't serious, but for the reason that it's debatable whether Loris was ever actually knocked out, let alone concussed.

I watched the incident on the TV on Sunday, and at first was as worried as anybody, but when Loris came back onto the pitch, after a minimal amount of treatment, and was as right as ninepence, then it was time to start questioning the validity of his "injury".

For a start, it is difficult to believe that any physio / doctor would be so unprofessional as to allow a concussed man to return to the field.  It goes against all medical and ethical practices and the physio concerned would know that he could be putting himself at the risk of a negligence or professional  misconduct charge.  

Secondly, if Loris had been concussed, he would have been like Bambi on ice.  His legs would have wobbled like rubber, his eyes would have been rotating in their sockets in different directions and he may possibly have vomited down his shirt front (vomiting is a symptom in some cases of concussion).  

But no.  Loris pops back on the pitch, with a bit of "Hey, I'm a big brave soldier and I'm prepared to risk my health for the good of the team."  and gets on with it as if nothing has happened.

Hugo Loris, I dare to suggest, is not Bert Trautmann.



I've seen players concussed on rugby pitches, and have myself suffered blows that put me out during games.  Not a snowballs' chance in hell that I or the other players concerned were coming back into those games.  Not a chance.

It is not beyond the bounds of probability that Loris feigned his injury.  I can't think why he would do such a thing, but show me a footballer who says he doesn't cheat and I'll show you a cheat who is also a liar.  Perhaps he thought he might get his opponent into trouble and although he definitely received a bump of some degree, he decided in the moment, to gild the lily.  Once the physio had come onto the pitch, and he'd realised that there was no advantage to be milked from the situation he realised he had to get back into the game and so Hey Presto..!!   The miraculous instant recovery.  

Oh, the good old miracle recovery...... How many times do we see that occur on football pitches all over the country, every Saturday of the season.   Scenario:  Player hits the deck as if he's collided with a herd of stampeding buffalo, only to get up as soon as the opponent is carded, and (after a bit of show-hobbling) is soon running around like a Jamaican sprinter again.

The above is, of course, speculation, but I'd suggest it's possibly not a million miles from the truth.

The only two people who know the real truth of the incident are Loris himself (and he isn't telling) and the physio, who has a tricky balancing act to consider between maintaining his professional standing and upsetting his employers by showing Loris up for a play actor.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:16 pm

The Fourth Lion wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
brain injury charity Headway said the club showed an "irresponsible and cavalier attitude" to Lloris's health

Spokesman Luke Griggs added: "When a player - or any individual - suffers a blow to the head that is severe enough for them to lose consciousness, it is vital they urgently seek appropriate medical attention.

"A physio or doctor treating a player on pitch simply cannot accurately gauge the severity of the damage caused to the player's brain in such a setting as there may be delayed presentation of symptoms.

"By continuing to play, the player may have caused greater damage to his brain. He should have been removed from the game immediately and taken to hospital for thorough tests and observation.

Spurs boss Andre Villas-Boas defended the decision to let Lloris return.
I'm not altogether sure that all this fuss shouldn't be taken with a massive pinch of salt.   Not that concussion isn't serious, but for the reason that it's debatable whether Loris was ever actually knocked out, let alone concussed.

I watched the incident on the TV on Sunday, and at first was as worried as anybody, but when Loris came back onto the pitch, after a minimal amount of treatment, and was as right as ninepence, then it was time to start questioning the validity of his "injury".

[b]For a start, it is difficult to believe that any physio / doctor would be so unprofessional as to allow a concussed man to return to the field.  It goes against all medical and ethical practices and the physio concerned would know that he could be putting himself at the risk of a negligence or professional  misconduct charge. [/b] 

Secondly, if Loris had been concussed, he would have been like Bambi on ice.  His legs would have wobbled like rubber, his eyes would have been rotating in their sockets in different directions and he may possibly have vomited down his shirt front (vomiting is a symptom in some cases of concussion).  

But no.  Loris pops back on the pitch, with a bit of "Hey, I'm a big brave soldier and I'm prepared to risk my health for the good of the team."  and gets on with it as if nothing has happened.

Hugo Loris, I dare to suggest, is not Bert Trautmann.



I've seen players concussed on rugby pitches, and have myself suffered blows that put me out during games.  Not a snowballs' chance in hell that I or the other players concerned were coming back into those games.  Not a chance.

It is not beyond the bounds of probability that Loris feigned his injury.  I can't think why he would do such a thing, but show me a footballer who says he doesn't cheat and I'll show you a cheat who is also a liar.  Perhaps he thought he might get his opponent into trouble and although he definitely received a bump of some degree, he decided in the moment, to gild the lily.  Once the physio had come onto the pitch, and he'd realised that there was no advantage to be milked from the situation he realised he had to get back into the game and so Hey Presto..!!   The miraculous instant recovery.  

Oh, the good old miracle recovery...... How many times do we see that occur on football pitches all over the country, every Saturday of the season.   Scenario:  Player hits the deck as if he's collided with a herd of stampeding buffalo, only to get up as soon as the opponent is carded, and (after a bit of show-hobbling) is soon running around like a Jamaican sprinter again.

The above is, of course, speculation, but I'd suggest it's possibly not a million miles from the truth.

The only two people who know the real truth of the incident are Loris himself (and he isn't telling) and the physio, who has a tricky balancing act to consider between maintaining his professional standing and upsetting his employers by showing Loris up for a play actor.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
did the docor give him permission to continue? pretty sure it was discussed on match of the day and they said the doctor never gave permission for him to continue.

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Post by joanna.lane2 on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:23 pm

One thing I bet they didn't do is warn Lloris of another risk of concussion - that you become impotent and infertile. If your pituitary gland gets damaged, which is a serious risk with concussion, you may end up with no sex drive, or suicidally depressed, or wiped out with chronic fatigue. Or obese. For more info google Dr Mark Porter 'lethal time bomb that can be caused by a head injury" or go to the headinjuryhypo website we set up after our son's suicide Pituitary damage (or PTHP) is treatable! Everyone talks about CTE which you can't do much about, why do they ignore this?

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:11 pm

joanna.lane2 wrote:One thing I bet they didn't do is warn Lloris of another risk of concussion - that you become impotent and infertile. If your pituitary gland gets damaged, which is a serious risk with concussion, you may end up with no sex drive, or suicidally depressed, or wiped out with chronic fatigue. Or obese. For more info google Dr Mark Porter 'lethal time bomb that can be caused by a head injury" or go to the headinjuryhypo website we set up after our son's suicide  Pituitary damage (or PTHP) is treatable! Everyone talks about CTE which you can't do much about, why do they ignore this?
Welcome to the board. Very interesting stuff, I didn't know that concussion could cause those side effects.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:20 pm

Concussion is very, very dangerous if not given the proper considerations. In wrestling terms, it did major damage to Bret Hart and I have read a very fascinating article that would suggest it may be why Chris Benoit went mental and his life ended in murder-suicide.

Not to argue those points at all, but it is so easily forgotten that concussion is a brain injury.

From an article I read on one of the above points wrote:"Concussions occur when the brain strikes the interior surface of the skull. When a person’s head is rapidly moved, the brain inside moves as well. The brain is not stationary, so rapid movements cause the brain to sway inside. As the brain impacts the skull, bruises are formed, and the bruising is what concussions are, on a basic level. Once a bruise (concussion) happens on the brain, it is there forever. The brain is made up of nerve cells, and oddly enough, nerve cells do not go through cell division. Cell division is how all our other cells get repaired when they are damaged.

Now, since these cells do not get repaired, it is critical that a person not suffer more than one concussion in the same area of the brain. By injuring the same spot over and over, you begin to develop severe deficits that will affect how you live your life."
As a man of no medical knowledge, I trust what I am reading to be true in this matter as it was written by a healthcare professional. I could be easily proved wrong, so I'm not suggesting this is gospel. But it makes you think.

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Post by dummy_half on Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:48 am

DAVE667 wrote:
dummy_half wrote:Dave

Good point re the Cech-style helmets, more commonly known as a scrum cap. They are worn in rugby to minimise the risk of injuries from cuts and similar, but offer very little protection against concussion type injuries - probably any (small) benefit from dispersing the force if impact is negated by the perception of invulnerability you get when wearing one and so being more williing to put you head somewhere it is likely to get whacked

One further thing though is that Lloris is by far not the first player this year to be knoked out but then recover and play on - he's not even tottenham's first, as Townsend was KO'd the other week when he went over the advertising hordings and into the photographers. Not sure why this is the particular case that has people up in arms.

It probably is sensible to introduce a protocol whereby players who are knocked out on the pitch are substituted automatically, and that this does not count amongst the three substitutions (since it is forced by protocol rather than injury or tactics).
No doubt this would be subject to abuse and any manager with a player performing badly will give him a pre-arranged signal to go down "injured" at the earliest opportunity and get him off without jeopardising the team's chances by wasting a sub. Quite how they'll fake a head injury is something I'll leave up to them but if it's executed as well as some of the other simulation we've seen over the years, I think there'll be a few more red cards shown.
Dave

Agree that any such system could be open to abuse, although if you limit it to players that are actually knocked out it would be difficult to fake. Then again, Harlequins rugby did manage to fake a blood injury and get a temporary replacement on just in time to take a vital penalty kick...

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Post by Guest on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:01 am

Look at the number of clashes or arms/boots to the face/body that players go down from only for replays to show there's been no contact made with the area of the body that he's subsequently shown grasping in pain.

It's my belief that if they introduced a system of replacing players who suffered head injuries, you'll end up with Olivier-esque performances and players stating that whilst replays shown there was zero head contact made, they'd actually suffered a "secondary concussion" when their head whiplashed back and a third concussive blow when they fell to the floor so "neerrrrrr, I had to go off!".

Accidents happen in football and thankfully the medical staff at most grounds are first class and the players recieve the very best treatment within seconds (something the rest of us would never get if we suffered a head injury in the street, home or at our place of work).

If Lloris has and delayed reaction to this headclash, then perhaps the powers that be may want to investigate further but if he turns out to be fine, lets move on and put it down to one of those unfortunate things that happen.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:27 am

United are irresponsible If you ask me........

They have a player who has had a head injury in Ashley Young that keeps playing despite having an obvious balance problem... heightened when in close proximity to wooden objects surrounded by netting...

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Post by Alessandro Ciambella on Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:35 pm

Ha hahaha! Brilliant!!
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Post by The Fourth Lion on Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:21 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:United are irresponsible If you ask me........

They have a player who has had a head injury in Ashley Young that keeps playing despite having an obvious balance problem... heightened when in close proximity to wooden objects surrounded by netting...

Mischievous comment.... but not, I would suggest, a million miles from the truth. Kudos to you, Trussers..!!
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Post by compelling and rich on Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:32 pm

have i missed something, why isnt everybody up in arms about szczesny staying on after getting knocked out?

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Post by Guest on Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:15 pm

because the story has been covered with lloris, media have been there & done that, probably why they are not reporting it 24/7 or in newspapers. it's an old debate, that's how the world works. how long was he out for, five seconds or was he even out at all?


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Post by compelling and rich on Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:48 pm

I was a tad drunk in the pub but I thought he was laid out for what seemed like a while. Remember thinking at the time it seemed he took longer to come round than lloris. But its difficult to tell because he was face down

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:14 pm

Was schzeny knocked out? I know he was on the floor but i didnt read he was knocked out, i thought he was just in pain.


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