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Australia vs England 1st test match thread

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 20 Nov 2013, 9:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

The Ashes - 1st Test, Brisbane
21-25 November, 2013

Australia:
CJL Rogers, DA Warner, SR Watson, MJ Clarke*, SPD Smith, GJ Bailey,
BJ Haddin†, PM Siddle, MG Johnson, NM Lyon, RJ Harris.

England:
AN Cook*, MA Carberry, IJL Trott, KP Pietersen, IR Bell, JE Root,
MJ Prior†, SCJ Broad, GP Swann, JM Anderson, CT Tremlett

Umpires: Aleem Dar (Pakistan) and HDPK Dharmasena (Sri Lanka)
TV umpire: M Erasmus (South Africa)
Match referee: JJ Crowe (New Zealand)
Reserve umpire: P Wilson (Australia)
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:24 pm

When you hammered Australia last time you had a huge first innings deficit at Brisbane and ended up 500 and something for 1......I recall.......

So you had the same start as last time....

Why the doom and gloom ??.......Everyone messes up once in a while.......

You are the better team over five tests it will show...........Not sure Joe root is up to it though guys...

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Post by Stella Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:29 pm

Hoggy

I could see Bresnan returning, if fit. Carberry got 40, so should keep his place also.
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Post by kingraf Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:31 pm

The doom and gloom, I suspect, is because two days into a test match, England are 220 runs behind having taken no second innings wickets. It's because England haven't scored 400 in 17 innings. It's because Root, Trott, and Cook can't buy runs at the moment. If I was English I'd be very worried. When your team hasn't scored 400 in 17 innings, you are quite right to not assume that they can just turn it on
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Post by Hoggy_Bear Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:35 pm

Stella wrote:Hoggy

I could see Bresnan returning, if fit. Carberry got 40, so should keep his place also.
Bowling isn't really the problem though is it?
Although, I suppose, bringing in Bresnan for Trott might strengthen the batting AND the bowling. Wink 

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Post by Pal Joey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:36 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:When you hammered Australia last time you had a huge first innings deficit at Brisbane and ended up 500 and something for 1......I recall.......

So you had the same start as last time....

Why the doom and gloom ??.......Everyone messes up once in a while.......

You are the better team over five tests it will show...........Not sure Joe root is up to it though guys...
That was great batting, Truss... but the match ended in a draw. England haven't won at the 'Gabba since 1986.

You're right though. Early days still... no need for doom and gloom. Just yet. Wink
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Post by Stella Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:38 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Stella wrote:Hoggy

I could see Bresnan returning, if fit. Carberry got 40, so should keep his place also.
Bowling isn't really the problem though is it?
Although, I suppose, bringing in Bresnan for Trott might strengthen the batting AND the bowling. Wink 
But Bresnan would have probably played if fit, so he may return for that reason. Plus he can bat at eight. Carberry will probably stay, as will Root. Be shocked to see Trott dropped for Adelaide.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:45 pm

kingraf wrote:The doom and gloom, I suspect, is because two days into a test match, England are 220 runs behind having taken no second innings wickets. It's because England haven't scored 400 in 17 innings. It's because Root, Trott, and Cook can't buy runs at the moment. If I was English I'd be very worried. When your team hasn't scored 400 in 17 innings, you are quite right to not assume that they can just turn it on
But you aren't the West Indies........You know you have guys that can bat for a long time and that will fight in Cook, Trott and Bell and you have a wonderful talent in Pietersen who can change a game in 4 hours If he sticks around........

Carberry I don't know much about...........and Root If he'd been caught at slip at Lords like he should have been wouldn't even be playing.......Doesn't look good enough..........One hit and about ten misses...

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:47 pm

I feel asleep on the dot of 82/2

You can imagine my surprise to wake up on my sofa with the telly still on and england all out for 136.

well done Aus and Mitch.

Game on.

This is what we needed to be honest. Some real fight by them..


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Post by JDizzle Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:50 pm

No way Trott is dropped for Adelaide. Absolutely no chance. The only time I could see him being left was if the series is over by Melbourne/Sydney and he hasn't been able buy a run, but even then there is no obvious alternative to bat in the top three.

Give us some hope LB, I've heard rumours of thunderstorms in Brisbane over the next few days? Is there any chance of these interfering with play or are they just going to blow through quickly?

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:50 pm

By the way Truss- Root is very much good enough. Quality talent.

and graf is a safa

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Post by kingraf Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:52 pm

Think it's over as a contest to be honest. Teams don't generally come back from this far behind. Over 2000 tests in the history of the game, and you could probably count on one hand the teams that have forced a result from 160 runs behind after two days, without rain intervening on their part. Cricket may be a funny old game, but what is supposed to happen generally happens.
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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:53 pm

Trott lost the ability to play test cricket about 6 months ago.

The press and social media constant attack of his low SR got to him. He mentioned it in interviews a lot and he was talking about trying to play more shots etc

His SR has increased but his Ave is diminishing.


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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 12:53 pm

kingraf wrote:Think it's over as a contest to be honest. Teams don't generally come back from this far behind. Over 2000 tests in the history of the game, and you could probably count on one hand the teams that have forced a result from 160 runs behind after two days, without rain intervening on their part. Cricket may be a funny old game, but what is supposed to happen generally happens.
we drew last time and got a 517/1

not saying that will happen again- but its possible

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Post by kingraf Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:02 pm

Quite different match though, Oakey. That game didn't swing that quickly, did it? After the first innings, only two more wickets fell in four days of cricket in 2010, 14 fell today. Hard to see a draw when we were already on the third innings after tea of day 2.
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Post by kingraf Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:03 pm

Meant two more wickets fell after first innings' completion
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Post by Hoggy_Bear Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:05 pm

JDizzle wrote:No way Trott is dropped for Adelaide. Absolutely no chance. The only time I could see him being left was if the series is over by Melbourne/Sydney and he hasn't been able buy a run, but even then there is no obvious alternative to bat in the top three.

Oh I agree, I doubt very much he will be dropped anytime soon.
His form with the bat, as with the England team as a whole, is a little concerning though.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:09 pm

not sure king graf= england saved it with a 517/1

if you bat like that you save any game dude.

the chances of lightning striking twice are however not good!!

But to Englands credit if any players have it in the locker to do that it is cook , trott and bell.


By the way you were spot on about Mitch Wink


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:11 pm

Root's scores don't show it Oakey...........One good knock in 6 tests.......

You guys are being way too defeatist.......Probably because you came in with too many high hopes....

1. Australia are at home.
2. Australia have a point to prove and England have probably under-estimated them..
3. England still need to adjust to the conditions fully.
4. Johnson produced........Will he in the 2nd innings ??.......That leaves Harris because their spinner got lucky today and is average......Siddle is a trier...
5. You are the better team......and full of players who can score big.......

Find it fascinating you guys are so defeatist........Would not be surprised at all If England scored big second time around......

Have FAITH.........

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Post by Pal Joey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:11 pm

JDizzle wrote:No way Trott is dropped for Adelaide. Absolutely no chance. The only time I could see him being left was if the series is over by Melbourne/Sydney and he hasn't been able buy a run, but even then there is no obvious alternative to bat in the top three.

Give us some hope LB, I've heard rumours of thunderstorms in Brisbane over the next few days? Is there any chance of these interfering with play or are they just going to blow through quickly?
The current situation, JD, is that the monsoonal trough has arrived on the northern coasts of NT and Qld. Very rain laden clouds there.

Off the coast in the Coral/Tasman Seas... there are more lows pushing heavy but cooler rains onto the eastern seaboard.

When these 2 systems start to mix... then the typical pattern is relatively clear mornings (although v. humid) and a gradual build up of heat in the morning until 1-2pm. Then more cloud build up, a mid-afternoon thunderstorm... and a deluge for maybe an hour or two. Then it all stops and stabilises again overnight... and the cycle repeats itself again... but getting hotter, muggier and wetter each day... until a dry westerly (off the desert) gains dominance. But this happens less and less up until late Feb-March when the wet season ends.

Sunday is supposed to be the worst of the thunderstorms... clearing partially on Monday.
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Post by guildfordbat Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:12 pm

kingraf wrote:The doom and gloom, I suspect, is because two days into a test match, England are 220 runs behind having taken no second innings wickets. It's because England haven't scored 400 in 17 innings. It's because Root, Trott, and Cook can't buy runs at the moment. If I was English I'd be very worried. When your team hasn't scored 400 in 17 innings, you are quite right to not assume that they can just turn it on
Certainly England's lack of runs is a serious concern in this Test. As Raf states, ''England are 220 runs behind having taken no second innings wickets''. That's especially concerning and highlights the frailty of England's own batting when you factor in that so far no Australian batsman in their top six has reached 50. It's not as if a Chappell or a Ponting has smashed 180 to put us so far behind.

Whether the England batting is an ongoing problem remains to be seen. We know at least from the last 24 hours what a difference a day can make.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:14 pm

Nothing like sport is there............One minute people are toasting a guy........the next he is finished.......

Johnathon trott has held firm for England on many occasions helping you win important tests..........

Gloves one to leg and It's sack him off.........

Have more respect.........

Guy is one of the best batsmen you have...He deserves time..

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:16 pm

i take it you are talking about his opening stats.

he is back at 6 now mate, where he performed much better

he is young and IMO one of the talented young batsman in the world at the minute

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:19 pm

Potential is a dirty word..........Flashed at one today and was out for 2........

I don't think the Aussies sweat him Mate........

Young or not........It's scores that matter........

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:21 pm

if i was an aus i would 100% sweat him,.

And he has the scores top back him up./

You seem like the type that just reads stats(and in roots case wrongly!!) and doesnt watch cricket.


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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:23 pm

I am sorry where have you got this nonsense from about root- he averages about 50 odd at number 6

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Post by kingraf Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:28 pm

Guildford - not crossing the 400 threshold in 17 innings suggests the English batting is a very serious problem. Without having the stat near me, I'd hazard England havent crossed 400 more than ten times since 2012. The batting has very real problems. Cook has scored about 1500 Ashes runs in 21 Test. On its own, it's a very respectable total. But the take away is, outside of that huge 2010/2011 series, he has about 750 Ashes runs in 16 Tests. So the question becomes, was 2010/2011 a ln anomaly, and in reality Cook has very real struggles against Australia? I'd say no, but the reality is possibly different. KP is of course an outlier genius, but he wins you matches, not series', unless the match is rubber match. I don't watch County, so I cant comment on Carbs. Bell is of course in the form of his life. Trott is in the middle of a crisis of confidence, or technique... But you can't drop him. He is the most technically correct Batsman in the team, and he has that bloody-mindedness, which will be needed. That leaves Root. I've heard he is special, and he certainly looks it when he wears colour clothing, but he isnt ready for Test cricket. Not now.

The replacements don't inspire great confidence, either. Last I heard Nick Compton was in the streets of Compton, teaching Latin gangsters of another use for bats, and Bairstow simply isn't good enough.
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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:32 pm

It is a serious problem Graf.

Cook, trott, kp have been massively out of touch over the last year.

Our bowlers have been letting them of the hook.

Root off course has to be kept on- he averages 40 overall in 20 odd innings!! if that is supposedly bad for a youngster- and that average is also better than all others bar bell in that time frame then the world has gone mad!!



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Post by Pal Joey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:39 pm

The England team definitely has the goods. It's just that an important group of batsmen weren't firing on the day. It's sort of like what Australia has been doing for the past few years now... it was one of those horror days.

To make you all feel better - I've had about 19 of these horror days since 2010!
(I was in denial for a year or so at first!) Smile 

My advice would be to stick with the current lineup/batting order and pray that one player makes a stand, then another and then another, etc. That's usually the best way forward.

KP and Bell are the most crucial wickets for me. I see those 2 batsman as the most dangerous threats, capable of doing something outstanding. I won't feel 100% confident about our winning chances until both of them are back in the pavilion.

The England team, as a successful group of cricketers, must somehow find that winning knack again... it's a psychological challenge as much as an actual performance one. They should just treat each day as a new one - we've seen matches twist and turn in the past, haven't we?
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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:42 pm

LB- mate this is one day dude.

what are you talking about!

we won the last series 3-0 and this is still the first test.

we dont need to find a winning knack again.

We just need a kick up the jacksie- as we allways do during the first test of any series

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Post by KP_fan Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:47 pm

The time diffrence doesn't allow watching live and hence the real-time flavour is lost...
too late to stay wake...too early to rise.

Horrible battting by batsmen on both sides......Aussie No.7 and 8 made the diffrence
OR conversely Eng's 3rd seamer( Tremlett) and 4th bowler ( Swann) didn't have the same impact as Siddle / Lyon...and hence the Nos 7 & 8 scored so freely.

His other trait's notwithstanding....Broad's a tough cookie I must say.

Game's not lost for England yet.......they have their back against the wall no doubt.....but they can still bundle Aus out for a further 120odd runs and then they have the batting to chase down 350.
Not easy.....test of resolve and depth of charcater...but do-able
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Post by Pal Joey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:48 pm

Oakey,

1.3 days you mean!

You're 33.33% out... get yer facts right, pal!  Laugh 

I know exactly what you are saying mate... but that's all about to change, isn't it?

We've had enough..................................... and guess what?

You've seen the first of it today so get used to it, bud. Hug
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Post by guildfordbat Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:50 pm

Raf - not crossing the 400 threshold for so long is concerning but I still believe there is massive batting talent in our top six. Whether England are experiencing an overlong but nonetheless only temporary wobble or something more serious and permanent, I'll return to as the serious progresses. For me, Trott is now the biggest concern - so often the bedrock but now with questions starting to be asked.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:51 pm

Brilliant- thats what we need!

A good AUS!!

I want a tight series!



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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:54 pm

In all honesty as gutted as i was when i woke up this morning.

This is a good thing for the ashes and cricket

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Post by Duty281 Fri 22 Nov 2013, 1:57 pm

Indeed if Australia do win this Test, it will be fantastic for the neutrals (not to mention Australia!). Not that I think this Test match is beyond England yet.

Despite everything, the pitch still looks fantastic and good for batting. Chasing up to 450 won't be beyond England - they surely can't bat as poorly as they did on Day 2, the pitch is good, the outfield's fast, and the English batsman all have a point to prove.

Dare I say, the stage is set for Kevin Pietersen on his 100th Test...

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 2:02 pm

And whatever happens, there is nothing to change in our team.

It will just be a loss- nothing drastic is needed to play better.

the team is still our best and the only question mark before would have been carbs anyway, he was only one to do ok so earns his place again

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Post by dyrewolfe Fri 22 Nov 2013, 2:06 pm

Duty281 wrote:Indeed if Australia do win this Test, it will be fantastic for the neutrals (not to mention Australia!). Not that I think this Test match is beyond England yet.

Despite everything, the pitch still looks fantastic and good for batting. Chasing up to 450 won't be beyond England - they surely can't bat as poorly as they did on Day 2, the pitch is good, the outfield's fast, and the English batsman all have a point to prove.

Dare I say, the stage is set for Kevin Pietersen on his 100th Test...
I've seen people saying "the stage is set for KP..." for years now...and more often than not, he ends up getting out cheaply (and stupidly). Wink

If England are to save this Test, it will need a combined team effort, with most of the top order pulling their weight, plus a bit of help from the middle order and tail. The only good news is that, on their day, this team is capable of racking up big scores, so a draw is not beyond them.

To repeat what I said on a BBC HYS thread, I think England were caught out as this is the first time this tour they've had to face top quality, hostile bowling. In that sense, you could say they were undercooked. Anyway, hopefully this will be the wake-up call that gees them into top gear and gets them playing to their full capability.

Another thing to remember: England nearly always wobble once or twice in every series, so don't write them off just yet. Wink
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Post by Pal Joey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 2:06 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Raf - not crossing the 400 threshold for so long is concerning but I still believe there is massive batting talent in our top six. Whether England are experiencing an overlong but nonetheless only temporary wobble or something more serious and permanent, I'll return to as the serious progresses. For me, Trott is now the biggest concern - so often the bedrock but now with questions starting to be asked.
It's funny how everyone keeps mentioning this magical "400" figure as being some sort of benchmark target for a 1st innings on a batting wicket. No offence to what you are saying though, Guildford.

The truth is 300 runs is still a decent total on this type of wicket. Even 270/7 looks good in retrospect... 295 a slightly below par score maybe? There have been some horribly low scores on this ground... below 100 in several Shield matches in recent years. Bowling attacks have got better too (maybe helped on by shorter formats of the game) and wickets are prepared differently now. This pitch may have some life in it yet!

Great value for bowling with pace and bounce. That was evident today with MJ clocking 148 km/h (max) and Rhino 146 km/h (max). Then Siddle following up... often touching 140 km/h. But it was that speed combined with the bounce that scared me. Some of those deliveries seemed to be half as high as Tremlett again. It was ferocious bowling indeed.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 22 Nov 2013, 2:28 pm

mystiroakey wrote:if i was an aus i would 100% sweat him,.

And he has the scores top back him up./

You seem like the type that just reads stats(and in roots case wrongly!!) and doesnt watch cricket.

Who gives a toss about number 6...........Most of the time he was out in the tests he'd been there for 40 balls scoring diddly......Footwork isn't great and he flashes .......

Like he did today.........

Come on you see a ball and play it..........

You're a Root fanboy........How many chances are you going to give him..

The Aussies don't sweat him...............Warne thinks he is a weak link as do others........He isn't cutting it.......

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 2:34 pm

warne thought they would beat England in England 5-0

the whole of the Aussie media think broad is an average medium pace bowler.

But I have worked out your issue- you dont watch the game- you just listen to idiots and follow there opinions


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Post by guildfordbat Fri 22 Nov 2013, 2:35 pm

Linebreaker - I'm not so fussed as Raf about the ''400 threshold''. An innings score needs to be seen in the context of a lot of things and, just as sometimes a fifty from a batsman can be more valuable than a century in other circumstances, a total of 350 might be top notch. I do though acknowledge Raf's point that time is getting on since we made an obviously big score. I would expect this series to give clear pointers as to whether it is ''just one of those things'' or something more serious. Whatever it may be, we shouldn't rush to judgment after just one knock here.

As regards this match, KP_fan is right to flag the batting success of Haddin and Johnson and how that has impacted upon things. If they had both been dismissed for their usual average, I suspect that would have lessened the heat of current comments on England's batsmen.

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Post by brennomac Fri 22 Nov 2013, 2:49 pm

As a neutral (well as neutral as any Irishman can be in game involving England) that was a woeful display. You can talk about England being undercooked etc etc, but the facts are that too many got out to awful shots - Bell, Prior, Root, Pietersen. The fact that Rogers and Warner had no problems knocking of 60-odd in the Oz 2nd innings shows that pitch is fine. That makes the England batting display all the more unpardonable.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 22 Nov 2013, 3:00 pm

mystiroakey wrote:warne thought they would beat England in England 5-0

the whole of the Aussie media think broad is an average medium pace bowler.

But I have worked out your issue- you dont watch the game- you just listen to idiots and follow there opinions

One good innings in ten.......If he cut it he wouldn't be at 6..Demotion...Last chance saloon.

I saw England hit 550-1 last time they were in Brisbane when they were written off............Like they are now....

So obviously I do watch it....... and maybe I'm not a defeatist-throw-in-the-towel guy either..........

Brits do like whinging and losing though.............Unfortunately the test match team are made of sterner stuff.........and are WINNERS!!

Joe Root............one good innings Mate............Maybe If Trott doesn't score any they can move him to 6.........See If he cuts it there..in the last chance saloon..


Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 22 Nov 2013, 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ..)

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 3:05 pm

The only people whinging is you and the aussie media- I am certainly not whinging

what is all this nonsense about 1 good innings- i truely suggest you stop talking about him if you are keeping to keep repeating such nonsense

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 22 Nov 2013, 3:09 pm

mystiroakey wrote:The only people whinging is you and the aussie media- I am certainly not whinging

what is all this nonsense about 1 good innings- i truely suggest you stop talking about him if you are keeping to keep repeating such nonsense
Why isn't he opening then If it went swimmingly......

I'm not whinging.........I'm not the one who wants Trott dropped and has given Australia the test...........

Not really bothered who wins it.............Just enjoy watching the battle..

I'm not looking for an argument........Just nonplussed that If Root had done a good job in the summer he wouldn't be at 6..........Where his lack of footwork again helped in another low score...

Not trying to offend you but tell me why he isn't opening and don't be defensive...

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 3:09 pm

Truss are you seriously gonna keep up with this nonsense.

firstly he had a 69 and a 13 NO (as well as the 180) during those 10 innings,, he also had a 30.

lets forget about the 30 but factor in the 69 and the 13 no

that's 2 good innings in 9!!

that's 1 in 4.5 not 10.

you also have forgotten about the time he played before!!

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Post by Steffan Fri 22 Nov 2013, 3:10 pm

Great start for the Aussies. Keep it up lads

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 22 Nov 2013, 3:17 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Truss are you seriously gonna keep up with this nonsense.

firstly he had a 69 and a 13 NO (as well as the 180) during those 10 innings,, he also had a 30.

lets forget about the 30 but factor in the 69 and the 13 no

that's 2 good innings in 9!!

that's 1 in 4.5 not 10.

you also have forgotten about the time he played before!!
Prior performances are good but don't count or no one would ever get dropped.......

You are obviously a fan and I hope I'm wrong about Root....... but If he did a good job he'd still be opening.......Surely that is obvious....

Warne could have gone on about the other members of the top 6 but focused on him..........WHY ??.......

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 22 Nov 2013, 3:24 pm

Truss argue all you want but please argue fairly. he performed well in 1 out 4.5 and only adequately one other time, not your figure of 1 in 10!

Root is 100% tagged to being the opener, carbs is short term.

Root is still being groomed for the role.

Root going back to 6 is as much about how bad we have been in the middle for so long as it has been about finding a replacement(short term) opener. If there was a better 6 oiption available over carbs as opener root would have stayed opening


No.6 is massive batting place for England- and we have struggled with it for a long time(since collingwood)

Obviously the long term outlook is to put root back at opener and find a decent no.6(preferably an all rounder)

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 22 Nov 2013, 3:29 pm

We can agree to disagree Oakey............and I respect your opinion...Read your stuff..

But don't tell me to argue fairly and then..........."I've worked out your problem- You don't watch the game you just listen to idiots and follow them".....

Pretty cheap remarks like that...

I argued my position and it is.....If he'd cut it he'd still be opening....

you disagree.......Fair enough!

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