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Eng didn't just lose...were just blown away

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Post by KP_fan Sun 24 Nov 2013, 3:48 pm

here are the comments from the experts...especially telling is the one from Vaughan People are trying to avoid facing Johnson
I sensed that in Swann...backing away from the line of the ball

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25075729

Former England captain Michael Vaughan: "This could have long-term effects on England because they have been blown away. People are trying to avoid facing Johnson. They will know they have a lot of soul-searching to do. They have to come out with a different mindset in Adelaide. This is one tall order, a bigger challenge than coming back to win in India."

Ex-England batsman Geoffrey Boycott: "I think Alastair Cook would bite your hand off if you offered him retaining, rather than winning the Ashes. Perth should have more pace and bounce than Brisbane, so England could easily go 2-0 down in that match (the third one). They need to find a way of winning matches on these wickets."

Australian fast-bowling legend Glenn McGrath: "Mitchell Johnson has come back mentally tougher and sorted out a few technique issues. He's happier off the field too, with a young family, and hopefully he's going to be around a long time for Australia."

Former England captain Nasser Hussain, speaking on Sky Sports: "It's very worrying (to have lost by such a distance). They were bullied. It wasn't as though Australia started well and then continued - England were bossing the game. A lot of it has to do with the opposition, Mitchell Johnson is unrecognisable from the bowler we have seen in previous Ashes battles, the confidence and the togetherness are unrecognisable from the team we saw in England, thanks to (coach) Darren Lehmann.


Former Australia leg-spinner Shane Warne: Message to all my English followers who have been sledging me during the last Ashes series: Hope you're enjoying Brisbane.
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Post by KP_fan Sun 24 Nov 2013, 3:52 pm

the sledging battle.....English were more gentlemanly when winning comparitively now it seems:

Sledge when you're winning
Australia were all over England on Saturday, both with the ball and the barbs.

Johnson chatted away to Joe Root after almost every ball, calling him a "pretty boy" and mocking his innocent smile. And poor tailenders Chris Tremlett and Anderson looked like wounded animals being encircled by their prey as they were surrounded by chirping Aussie fielders in the closing stages.

At one point, Anderson complained to the umpires about the constant sledging from George Bailey at short leg.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25075729

Clarke then waded in and was heard on the stump microphones apparently telling Anderson to prepare to have his arm broken by Johnson.


and captain Cook a bit touchy and hurt by Warner's comments

England captain Alastair Cook branded Australian opener David Warner "disrespectful" after his side were thrashed by 381 runs in the first Test.
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Post by KP_fan Sun 24 Nov 2013, 4:00 pm

OMG what will Warne write in next column...after this collosal win.....when he was all over them claiming moral wins in the 3-0 defeat.
 
Eng are in hostile territory....and I am impressed by the temperament of especially targetted Broad.
Others have to show the same resillience and gel together.
Fairly early from here they need a stellar-solo-effort from someone to lift them.....like a 70 ball hundred from KP...
 
OR a 6 fer from Broad or Anderson or most likely Finn to crash Australia out for 150odd
 
to bring the esteem up and at parity.....to push the "all over them" Aussie players , fans and media a bit back"


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Post by Duty281 Sun 24 Nov 2013, 4:05 pm

Australia are starting to show their true colours again. Pretty vile cricket team it would appear....again, not to mention how a sizeable minority of their fans behave.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 24 Nov 2013, 4:13 pm

Duty281 wrote:Australia are starting to show their true colours again. Pretty vile cricket team it would appear....again, not to mention how a sizeable minority of their fans behave.
 

i agree...they should behave and give a better account then it appears they are giving now.
Eng were so much more sporting and balanced...almost gentelmanly in contrast....when winning.

It all started with Lehman's comments against Broad I guess.
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Post by JDizzle Sun 24 Nov 2013, 4:20 pm

England can't respond though, it just makes it look like they are losing their cool. Certainly not in public anyway. See how much chat Mitchell Johnson has when he has 1-110, then is the time to have a go back. Just concentrate on getting their own games in order.

Warning, some choice language involved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKtvZhmAn0I

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Post by Duty281 Sun 24 Nov 2013, 4:24 pm

What a lovely man Clarke is - threatening deliberate injury to a fellow professional.

Is this where the fans and Aussie media take their lead?

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Post by KP_fan Sun 24 Nov 2013, 4:28 pm

JDizzle wrote:England can't respond though, it just makes it look like they are losing their cool. Certainly not in public anyway. See how much chat Mitchell Johnson has when he has 1-110, then is the time to have a go back. Just concentrate on getting their own games in order.

Warning, some choice language involved: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKtvZhmAn0I
 
that is correct.....and that's what said when Eng captain and senior players  responded to Warne's inteded for stirring the pot comments.
The've gotta follow in Broad's footsteps...let their bat and balls do the talking...and when they are on the ascendancy ....they can open their mouths....and spin their comments.

complaining about sledging and disrespectful comments is meaningless....and works against them.
 
Once again I say...they need a stellar show from some one fairly soon....like KP it was in Mumbai who shut India up......they need someone to do that asap


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Post by ShahenshahG Sun 24 Nov 2013, 4:29 pm

If that was england duty you probably would have called it banter!

That said - I agree with Jdizzle above - they need to tough it out and show it on the pitch - broad can do so can the rest - ram it home to them that you arent there to take abuse but do it with the bat and ball and remind clarke ON THE PITCH what a front runner he and his team are. Don't mention anything outside the game otherwise you are offering bait to the sharks. If warner gets in trouble then someone retired will say it. Leave it out of your minds and out of your game.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 24 Nov 2013, 4:30 pm

I don't mind banter or sledging, but threatening someone with deliberate injury is assault.

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Post by JDizzle Sun 24 Nov 2013, 4:32 pm

Exactly KP fan. Need to win the toss, bat first in Adelaide and for someone to take the lead and set the example. Whether that be a Cook masterclass where he bats the Aussie bowlers into the ground for two days or a KP special where he blazes the bowling to all parts for a few hours; either would be effective, just needs someone to stand up and lead by example and show the Aussies that we are not scared of them.

Re: Clarke, I'm sure Jimmy has had some choice words to say to batsmen over the years and I'd imagine Clarke will be regretting his words fairly sharpish if he pops a short one upto short leg early on next time he bats.

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Post by ShahenshahG Sun 24 Nov 2013, 4:34 pm

Its just words designed to scare anderson - no way would they deliberately target a tailender and expect to get away with it. Johnson is a big part of their attack and their general work in tandem is very good and balanced - no way would they risk losing one of their bowlers to a ban for deliberately targeting a tailender. Any of the england team who took it to heart or seriously is opening more gaps to exploit and the aussies will peck away until theres nothing left.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 24 Nov 2013, 5:18 pm

and here comes Warne's column........same diagnosis and sane advice to Eng........not too diffrent from what some of us here are saying Wink
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/theashes/10471120/Ashes-2013-13-England-must-learn-to-stand-up-to-the-school-bully-says-Shane-Warne.html
 
By Shane Warne
 
5:01PM GMT 24 Nov 2013
 
 
England have met the school bully and been bashed up in Brisbane. England will say they have been a good side for a long time and this was just a hiccup. But psychological damage has been done in this first Test especially to the England middle and lower order facing that searing pace of Mitchell Johnson.
 
 
The best thing about it is that Australia have kept the pressure on some key players. Not inexperienced new guys, but battle-hardened Test players who have been key guys for England for years.
 
 
Matt Prior has not made a run again and the way he got out in both innings was poor and soft. If the tail-enders are going to be bombed by Johnson they need their No 7 to score runs and he has not done that for seven Tests.


Jonathan Trott has been the calming influence of the England batting but he has some serious issues with his technique facing the short ball. He spent a long time working on his technique before he came out here but he got out exactly the same way. Nothing changed. Either he is too stubborn to admit he has a problem or he is in denial.


Graeme Swann is a super spinner but he has a poor record in Australia. He struggled in the last series here with 14 wickets at 42 and he got one for 200 here. He has to look at how he bowls in Australia and learn quickly.
 
 
It adds up to some major concerns for England after only one Test of the series. They have to work out how they will take on the school bully.
 
Australia will come out aggressive with hostile bowling again and look at what happened when England played South Africa last year and were blown away by Morne Morkel and Dale Steyn. England have a problem against pace and capitulated here and facing just 133 overs in two innings, which is normally what you would face in one innings.
 
It was an aggressive performance from Australia both with the ball and with a few verbals. David Warner got carried away in the moment when he commented about Trott and the England batsman. His comments were a bit silly. He should have kept them to himself but we cannot have it both ways.
 
We want sportsmen to be interesting and tell us how they feel and it is just the way Davey Warner is. But if you say that kind of stuff you have to be able to cop it back, and he can.
 
It was great to see Mitchell Johnson back in Test cricket. He had consistency and bowled with serious pace. The left-arm angle and pace will trouble everyone. He exposed a few technical flaws and put a bit of fear in England. I always believed that Australia had a chance to win this Ashes series because they finally knew their best team. The addition of Johnson has given that added X-factor.
 
But yes, it is only one Test match. The Australian team would be silly to get carried away. England are a good team and they have shown over the past couple of years they can come back. England have 10 days to bounce back and it will be a test of character for them. In some way 10 days is a bit of a hindrance.
 
They would probably rather get straight back in the battle at Adelaide and try and put things right. Over the course of ten days you sometimes have too long to talk, and too long to dwell on what happened. It can be counterproductive. Broad and Anderson should be sent straight to Adelaide and told to sit on the beach for a few days because they are crucial for England and need to be protected.
 
I thought Alastair Cook captained beautifully up to the point Australia were 132 for six in the first innings. But then England just took their foot off the pedal and eased up. A combination of Johnson and Brad Haddin playing well and the England bowlers tiring allowed Australia a route back into the game.

Cook pushed fielders back on the fence and just gave Haddin and Johnson easy singles and the chance to build their partnership. I would have liked to have seen England being more ruthless and that goes back to what I have been saying for a long time about Cook. If he wants to take England to No 1 in the world then he has to learn to be ruthless.
 
The one thing to mar the week was the treatment of Stuart Broad by the Australian print media. I know the English press can be pretty brutal but the thing I don’t like about the Australia press is they go on and on and get very personal about stuff. What they did to Broad and the England team was childish, immature and it was embarrassing for Australians to watch it going on.
 
Sadly it was no surprise because the Australian press are the worst in the world. They are never fair and I think the Australian public have been disappointed with how they treated the English team. There was no need for it and it also backfired spectacularly because Broad responded by bowling well.
 
They just had to leave the intimidation to the Australian players and Johnson who are more than enough for England to worry about.


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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 24 Nov 2013, 5:36 pm

Shane Warne rather full of hot air - used to admire his views but some things don't add up.

After today's match he was going on about how England had been the better side in the summer but now is Australia's time. Really? All he did was whinge during the summer and claim England were lucky and Australia took all the plaudits and guff like that. Hypocritical Warney.
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Post by KP_fan Sun 24 Nov 2013, 5:46 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Shane Warne rather full of hot air - used to admire his views but some things don't add up.

After today's match he was going on about how England had been the better side in the summer but now is Australia's time. Really? All he did was whinge during the summer and claim England were lucky and Australia took all the plaudits and guff like that. Hypocritical Warney.
the beauty of Warne is how he Mixes truth( i have made bold) with insinuations( i have made italics)......and packages it using his super-star image....in a way average readers cannot diffrentiate between truth and insuniations.
Winds, up gets under the skin, forces the opponents to respond, gets in their mind and even make them change the way they would have acted otehrwise.

and his column appears so quickly after the end of game...looks like he drafted and kept most of it ready last night...put finishing touches during the preentaion cenremony......and hit the send button even befor players had left the field.

it's a beautiful and crafty mind at work
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 24 Nov 2013, 5:58 pm

Yes he paints the picture as bright as possible for Australian cricket even if he bends the truth here and there. Mind games it may be but as we know they never worked last summer or for the last three Ashes Series. Also don't think Warner's views are great at all - far from it. Sure we all know Trott is struggling but to try to score cheap points calling a fellow player 'weak and scared' is out of order in my opinion. Warner should check out his Test stats compared to Trott before spouting his mouth off.
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Post by KP_fan Sun 24 Nov 2013, 6:23 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:   Yes he paints the picture as bright as possible for Australian cricket even if he bends the truth here and there. Mind games it may be but as we know they never worked last summer or for the last three Ashes Series. Also don't think Warner's views are great at all - far from it. Sure we all know Trott is struggling but to try to score cheap points calling a fellow player 'weak and scared' is out of order in my opinion. Warner should check out his Test stats compared to Trott before spouting his mouth off.
 

warner is truly as somebody called him earlier....an Oaf
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Post by msp83 Sun 24 Nov 2013, 6:42 pm

It was very Un-Cook like to respond to what Warner said. What Warner said may not be in very good taste, but by responding to it, Cook would only add further fuel to the fire and that would in turn, might bring more pressure on Trott, who seems to have not only a technical issue against the short ball, but more importantly, a mental one.

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Post by msp83 Sun 24 Nov 2013, 6:47 pm

Mitchell Johnson was sensational in this game. There is a sense of fragility about Johnson that has made him rather likable for me of late. But we all know he can not only make batsmen hop about, but also bowl to the right, bowl to the left....... Someone will have to take charge against him, try putting him under a bit of pressure and then see how he'd react. KP is the key in that regard, the man has to produce one of those genius performances, and do it sharpish.

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Post by KP_fan Sun 24 Nov 2013, 7:42 pm

these days the more I read or listen to Boycott.......I increasingly believe he has turned senile
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Post by guildfordbat Sun 24 Nov 2013, 8:02 pm

msp83 wrote:It was very Un-Cook like to respond to what Warner said. What Warner said may not be in very good taste, but by responding to it, Cook would only add further fuel to the fire and that would in turn, might bring more pressure on Trott, who seems to have not only a technical issue against the short ball, but more importantly, a mental one.
Totally agree. By responding as he apparently did, Cook keeps this pot bubbling at a time when we need no further distractions. I would have expected him to say something along the lines of, ''The only real way and place to reply is on the field where we were well beaten in this match. That's what we're now concentrating on.'' Safe and unimaginative but sometimes that's the best path.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 6:49 am

Clarke has been fined 20% of the match fee.
 
It sounds like he was fined for being picked up by the stump microphone Cool 
Do umpires not even care to report these thnings ? I am sure they hear all
 
In a statement, the ICC said that Clarke had "made inappropriate gestures and directed an obscenity towards England's James Anderson, which was picked up by the stump microphone". After the Test, Clarke said he had heard plenty worse on the cricket field than anything that was said at the Gabba.
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Post by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 8:32 am

Trott returns home due to stress-related illness

OMG....either, which way, every way this is terrible.
If he has broken down so quickyl on his own....this will have a debilitating effect on the rest of team.
 
AND
if he has been forced by the team management & ECB...then it's even worse.....that means panic has travelled all the way up to the top.
 
 
You never, never show your fear / anxiety/ stress to the enemy in the midst of a war.
There would be many other ways of handling this alternatively.
 
 
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/692405.html
 
 
Trott returns home due to stress-related illness
David Hopps and Daniel Brettig
 
November 25, 2013
 
Comments: 7 | Login via  | Text size: A | A Jonathan Trott, the England batsman, has left the Ashes tour with a stress-related illness and will not return for the remainder of the series following the visitors' 381-run defeat in the first Test at the Gabba. Trott departed Brisbane on Sunday night after falling for low scores to the short-pitched bowling of Mitchell Johnson in both innings of the match.
 
England team management have been aware for some time that Trott was not feeling his best, and the team director Andy Flower and ECB managing director Hugh Morris spoke to him during the Brisbane Test, after which time the decision was made. England are not ruling out Trott's return to international cricket at a later date, as he is known to have battled other bouts of stress during a Test career that began with a century against Australia at the Oval in 2009.
 
"I don't feel it is right that I'm playing knowing I'm not 100% and I cannot currently operate at the level I have reached in the past," Trott said in a statement. "My priority now is to take a break from cricket to focus on my recovery."
 
Morris said Trott would be given as much time as he needed to recover. "Jonathan Trott is an incredibly talented cricketer who has proven himself time and again for England," he said. "Cricket is unimportant now, all that matters is that Jonathan is given time, support and space to recover."
 
Under the management of Duncan Fletcher and more recently Flower, England have cultivated a highly professional, motivated and taut team environment that has reaped some outstanding on-field results, including the retention of the Ashes through three consecutive series, temporary ownership of the world No. 1 Test ranking and victory in the 2010 World T20 in the Caribbean.
 
However it has taken a toll on cricketers at times across the era, despite a large back-room staff covering many areas of a cricketer's physical and mental well-being. Trott is the third England cricketer to depart a tour with a stress-related illness in recent years. The opener Marcus Trescothick left the 2005-06 India tour and the 2006-07 Ashes tour of Australia before the first Test in Brisbane, while the left-arm spinner Michael Yardy flew home from the 2011 World Cup. Neither cricketer has played for England again.
 
The decision is understood to have nothing to do with the comments delivered by Australia's opening batsman David Warner during the Test.
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Post by Enforcer Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:24 am

KP_fan wrote:If he has broken down so quickyl on his own....this will have a debilitating effect on the rest of team.

AND
if he has been forced by the team management & ECB...then it's even worse.....that means panic has travelled all the way up to the top.
Surely they're not the only two options? If Trott was already in doubt about his ability to play to the level he expects, then the first test may have confirmed to him what he already suspected/knew.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:29 am

KP_fan wrote:Trott returns home due to stress-related illness


 
 
You never, never show your fear / anxiety/ stress to the enemy in the midst of a war.
There would be many other ways of handling this alternatively.
 
 
How?
Lie? Say that he's injured?
If (when) the press found out it would be a disaster.

Keep him on tour?
Not really an option.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:55 am

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Trott returns home due to stress-related illness


 
 
You never, never show your fear / anxiety/ stress to the enemy in the midst of a war.
There would be many other ways of handling this alternatively.
 
 
How?
Lie? Say that he's injured?
If (when) the press found out it would be a disaster.

Keep him on tour?
Not really an option.
 
First we need to know wich of the 2 cases it is.......if it's a management enforced decision to keep him out given his mindset....then it is a BLUNDER...a disaster in PR management....and letting the Aussie media and hounding critics taste blood.
 
If Trott himself was unwilling...then pretty much as you think....declare him injured...and make him sit out.....the next test or two...and then send him back in a low profile way....saying his calf or knee or hamstring injury has not healed.
 
If it leaks??...how can a top confidential startegy matter leak????......be military like in discipline in managing that it does not leak during the tour.
 
If it leaks.....a few years later....yeah.....no body cares...spin it as a strategy win when in the midst of a war.
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Post by alfie Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:00 am

KP fan has been making a reasonable amount of sense lately...but that comment was just plain silly.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:04 am

Not really sure it's as black and white as you make out KP. I'm sure that the decision was made after consultation between the player and management and mutual agreement about what was best for Trott and the team.
Certainly don't think that keeping Trott on tour, under the pretence that he is injured, would do either Trott or the team any good. Seding him home is the best option, and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't admit the true reason.

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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:06 am

KP_fan, you're lack of understanding of mental illness is incredible. Please think or, if required, learn before making such cretinous comments again.

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Post by Mike Selig Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:16 am

I find the post insulting.

To suggest that Trott's very real stress-related illness has been brought on purely by his troubles in the first test... well words just fail me. The other suggestion that the management have somehow forced him to go home is equally unbelievable.

Obviously Trott has had issues for quite a while now (and it explains partly why his batting has been so out of character recently) and he and the management have agreed that it is best for him and the team that he go home.

It is not a case of showing fear/anxiety, but saying that he is very ill and in no state to play. It is no different from a serious injury, or physical illness.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:19 am

Fists of Fury wrote:KP_fan, you're lack of understanding of mental illness is incredible. Please think or, if required, learn before making such cretinous comments again.
mental illness...is not something that get developed and diagnosed confirmed  in 3 days of a test match Shocked 
 
either his mental illness conditions were known to the management and yet they brought him to a high profile tour like this...
OR
it's a cover up for dropping him on form.
 
in both cases the management messed up and they should manage it behind closed doors in alternative ways.
 
so whihc of the scenarios applies here in your opinion ?
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Post by ShahenshahG Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:22 am

They said it was a long temr one - so perhaps they were at fault for bringing him on tour.

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Post by Enforcer Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:22 am

I agree Mike, but it is slightly different in that keeping a player with a leg injury (for example) on tour won't do him any further damage. Whereas a player with a stress related condition could actually be made worse by being kept in and around the environment that could have led to, or worsened, the situation.

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Post by Enforcer Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:24 am

KP, do you live in a world where there are only ever 2 reasons for something happening? On this thread you've twice listed two hypothetical scenarios and asked people to choose which is correct.

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Post by ShahenshahG Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:27 am

Enforcer wrote:KP, do you live in a world where there are only ever 2 reasons for something happening? On this thread you've twice listed two hypothetical scenarios and asked people to choose which is correct.
(He can't count higher than two - please don't shatter his confidence, and his hamster died last night, Love, Kps mum)

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Post by alfie Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:29 am

Perhaps some people need to read Trescothick's book.

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Post by Mike Selig Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:29 am

Enforcer wrote:I agree Mike, but it is slightly different in that keeping a player with a leg injury (for example) on tour won't do him any further damage. Whereas a player with a stress related condition could actually be made worse by being kept in and around the environment that could have led to, or worsened, the situation.
Very true.

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Post by VTR Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:31 am

Fists of Fury wrote:KP_fan, you're lack of understanding of mental illness is incredible. Please think or, if required, learn before making such cretinous comments again.
You have saved me the effort of posting the same thing. Crass comments from KP_Fan on the subject

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Post by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:33 am

Enforcer wrote:KP, do you live in a world where there are only ever 2 reasons for something happening? On this thread you've twice listed two hypothetical scenarios and asked people to choose which is correct.
I might be limited in my mind in looking beyond two scenarios....but it's an open discussion and otehr members can educate me on other possibilities that my limited mind might be missing Very Happy 

so you believe Trott's was a pre-condition known to management and yet they brouhgt him here?
or a cover up created to send him back
or otehr possibilites exists ?
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Post by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:34 am

VTR wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:KP_fan, you're lack of understanding of mental illness is incredible. Please think or, if required, learn before making such cretinous comments again.
You have saved me the effort of posting the same thing. Crass comments from KP_Fan on the subject
Really crass?
that would make more logic...if along with dismissing the crass....you explain what the alternative logical reality is ?
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Post by VTR Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:39 am

KP_fan wrote:
VTR wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:KP_fan, you're lack of understanding of mental illness is incredible. Please think or, if required, learn before making such cretinous comments again.
You have saved me the effort of posting the same thing. Crass comments from KP_Fan on the subject
Really crass?
that would make more logic...if along with dismissing the crass....you explain what the alternative logical reality is ?
You are taking a very complicated condition and completely trivialising it with your suppositions. I would personally buy you a copy of Trescothick's autobiography if I thought it would make a blind bit of difference to your entrenched views.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:42 am

VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
VTR wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:KP_fan, you're lack of understanding of mental illness is incredible. Please think or, if required, learn before making such cretinous comments again.
You have saved me the effort of posting the same thing. Crass comments from KP_Fan on the subject
Really crass?
that would make more logic...if along with dismissing the crass....you explain what the alternative logical reality is ?
You are taking a very complicated condition and completely trivialising it with your suppositions. I would personally buy you a copy of Trescothick's autobiography if I thought it would make a blind bit of difference to your entrenched views.
you are imagining trivialization.

I nevere addressed the issue or it's seriousness from trott's POV at all on this thread.

But entirely from management's handling of it .

and see you used the term crass...the onus still remains on you to explain......why management brought him on tour and played him in T1 when he had such a serious mental illenss....given that this condition cannot appear in the last 3 days.
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Post by VTR Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:46 am

Refer to your post 8:32 am. There's your answer, I'm done with this thread now

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Post by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:49 am

VTR wrote:Refer to your post 8:32 am. There's your answer, I'm done with this thread now
sorry there is no answer that I see.....but that's OK...if one doesn't have an answer leaving the discussion is the best
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Post by Enforcer Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:57 am

KP_fan wrote:
Enforcer wrote:KP, do you live in a world where there are only ever 2 reasons for something happening? On this thread you've twice listed two hypothetical scenarios and asked people to choose which is correct.
I might be limited in my mind in looking beyond two scenarios....but it's an open discussion and otehr members can educate me on other possibilities that my limited mind might be missing Very Happy 

so you believe Trott's was a pre-condition known to management and yet they brouhgt him here?
or a cover up created to send him back
or otehr possibilites exists ?
I've no idea what happened, as none of us do, but off the top of my head possibilities could be:

1. Management knew about the condition but Trott said he was OK when he wasn't
2. Management knew about the condition but Trott said he was OK and he was, but took a turn for the worse.
3. Trott kept his current condition from the management.
4. Trott has previously suffered, showed no symptoms recently but had a relapse.

All of those are possible and would mean that management haven't acted badly or tried to cover up the dropping of a player.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:03 am

Enforcer wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Enforcer wrote:KP, do you live in a world where there are only ever 2 reasons for something happening? On this thread you've twice listed two hypothetical scenarios and asked people to choose which is correct.
I might be limited in my mind in looking beyond two scenarios....but it's an open discussion and otehr members can educate me on other possibilities that my limited mind might be missing Very Happy 

so you believe Trott's was a pre-condition known to management and yet they brouhgt him here?
or a cover up created to send him back
or otehr possibilites exists ?
I've no idea what happened, as none of us do, but off the top of my head possibilities could be:

1. Management knew about the condition but Trott said he was OK when he wasn't
2. Management knew about the condition but Trott said he was OK and he was, but took a turn for the worse.
3. Trott kept his current condition from the management.
4. Trott has previously suffered, showed no symptoms recently but had a relapse.

All of those are possible and would mean that management haven't acted badly or tried to cover up the dropping of a player.
Yes those are possibilities....but to express them would mean speculatively pointing a finger at the integrity of an already troubled man who has done well for his country....

I'd rather speculatively point a finger at the management whose job it is with all the physical and mental trainers and support staff to take care of the well being of the players...and are supposed to know all major issues affecting their main players

So again it's down to 2 scenarios...you point a finger at Trott or the management Smile
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Post by alfie Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:06 am

Really , does it matter ? What is the point of trying to turn this into a way to bash the management , in the absence of any real knowledge or insight ?

Can we not simply express sympathy to Trott and leave him to rebuild his career in peace , and let team management get on ith dealing with the situation as it now is ?

Anything else seems to me to be just mischief making...

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Post by msp83 Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:11 am

The management was aware of Trott's issues, Flower admitted as much. But Trott did manage to come through such issues in the past, so the management would have thought that he'd be able to do that again. But now it is obvious that Trott isn't able to cope with the situation any more, and so the right call has been made.
I think the management took the right stand in revealing the real reason for Trott's withdrawal from the touring party. I remember when Trescothick went back all of a sudden from India, the reasons were not made clear and there were a lot of rather unwanted speculation flying around and that is an undesirable scenario, particularly in a situation like this.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:20 am

Management have already said this is a long term problem Trott has had. It would explain his form last summer as well. As to why he was brought along they answered that as well. He has come through with relative few mental scars through 'the illness' before with no effect on the team (ie Ashes retained) so felt the same could be achieved. However, such was the nature of the defeat in the First Test it is apparently clear that the England management realise (with stress levels now higher on everyone) this is not the kind of environment to keep Trott in and poor form/mental state from a key player is cancerous (so to speak) and needs cut out of the side. That is how I read it - a decision that benefits Trott and possibly the England team.
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Post by KP_fan Mon 25 Nov 2013, 11:27 am

alfie wrote:Really , does it matter ?  What is the point of trying to turn this into a way to bash the management , in the absence of any real knowledge or insight ?

Can we not simply express sympathy to Trott and leave him to rebuild his career in peace , and let team management get on ith dealing with the situation as it now is ?

Anything else seems to me to be just mischief making...
I do not subscribe to the theory of granting immunity to management....instead all or any of their actions are open to debate and scrutiny.

how they have handled this has hurt their team's near future morale...... and also signifcantly damaged Trott's current and future.

expressing sympathy to Trott is important but completely diffrent from holding management responsible for this situation.
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