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2nd test Adelaide

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Post by KP_fan Fri 29 Nov 2013, 2:54 am

First topic message reminder :

all the reprots coming out indicate that this will be a "typical English pitch "
batting friendly, dry, offering reverse and a lot of turn in 2nd inning Alan Border thinks.
 
that wouldn't be what Aus would have liked..and would like to alter whatever bit they can in the end......althouhg I understand it is harder to alter a drop in pitch.
 
Teams:
 
I would like to make a fairly early call on what the team changes might be....not based on what I would like to see but rather..reading into the mind  of the two coaches.
 
--Eng might  bring in Stokes and Bresnan for Trott and Tremlett.
Bresnan is a favorite of Flower mentality.......a batsman and a bowler packed into one.....how much he can hold against the Aussie pace as a batter will be tested....bowling....well he picked 4-fer in some junior game yesterday...in the best of times he struggles to be consistently above 132kph and now coming back from injury...dunno how how fast he can be but certainly can't do worse than Tremlett's 122kph.
 
Stokes I know not much about other than career stats on CI....but he might be picked on the rationale that he is not much less of a batsman than Ballance and Bairstow and can bowl also...spreading the workload over 5 bowlers and cushioning the undercooked Bresnan.
 
--Aus might bring in Faulkner for Bailey.....as he can reverse the ball, was in no less a blistering form with the bat in India then Bailey.....and is a proper brisk fast medium bowler who will cushion the work-load on their genuine pacers preserving them for rocket fast WACA the next test.
This is where Watson's inability to bowl 15 overs a day is putting more pressure on him.....and should Faulkner have a good game and Watson not......he is at risk of being edged out....not immediately but sooner than later.


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Post by Gerry SA Sun 08 Dec 2013, 3:02 am

Duty281 wrote:For Perth I'd put Ballance in for Stokes (we need the extra batting more than the bowling), and Bresnan in for Panesar. Keep Root at 3 though.

As for today, the pitch is literally dying in front of my eyes. England have to believe that they can see this out.

Nice shot their by super Kev. clap
Panesar getting the chop? You being serious?

Swann's been dreadful so far.

Panesar certainly bowled a lot better in Adelaide than Swann

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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 3:07 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
alfie wrote:Hey Caledonian Craig ...I hear what you are saying , but beg to differ.

Your Rocky film - Tyson/Bruno comparison was amusing , but I have seen enough cricket to know that such turnarounds do indeed happen
Not often , and I said myself it looks unlikely here : but to rule it out is effectively to give up ; which you should never do in sport. You are of course at liberty to descend into gloom (though you actually seem quite a cheerful fellow normally , especially for one from North of the Wall Smile ) ; but I do hope the players are a bit more resilient.
It isn't about gloom though - more like reality and knowing when the writing is on the wall. Obviously, I am not advocating the players give up but more making the point that they are not in the right place mentally or form-wise to turn this around.

Now if England got out of this test with a draw it could prove a massive turning point (almost qualifying as a test match won mentally). Even batting long until say around tea tomorrow before losing would be a plus as it would show batsmen that they can survive for a ling time.
I can agree with that. Though I honestly can't see them lasting that long here ...not just the mental frailties , but a tail that starts at six.

I do take your point about their mental state : but what I am saying is that mental states can be changed ; obviously , otherwise winning teams would always continue to win and losers to lose until team personnel are completely changed - and as we all know that doesn't happen. (Apart from super-dominant teams and total muppets , neither of which applies to these teams). Last time England were here they won three Tests by an innings : yet sandwiched in between was a massive Australian win in Perth.
Sometimes all it takes is one big partnership or a great spell of bowling to make a losing side remember how to compete.

Am I saying I really expect England to come back and win the last three Tests ? No. I think that is statistically unlikely to say the least. But I will not discount the possibility that they can win a Test - yes , even in Perth - if they don't allow the present circumstances to knock all the fight out of them.
They might need a bit of luck ...winning a toss might be a good start. But is isn't out of the question , however unlikely it seems on current form.

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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 3:19 am

Gerry SA wrote:
Duty281 wrote:For Perth I'd put Ballance in for Stokes (we need the extra batting more than the bowling), and Bresnan in for Panesar. Keep Root at 3 though.

As for today, the pitch is literally dying in front of my eyes. England have to believe that they can see this out.

Nice shot their by super Kev. clap
Panesar getting the chop? You being serious?

Swann's been dreadful so far.

Panesar certainly bowled a lot better in Adelaide than Swann
Monty probably did bowl a bit better than Swann. And he was gutsy with the bat. But he took what , 2/200 for the match ? If that is his good performance , you can see why the Australians don't worry about him. And he really cannot be carried in the field , unless he has a truly compelling case as a bowler ; which on Australian pitches he never will.
Swann is out of form , but he has more upside.

Actually I wouldn't play either of them in Perth. Pace bowlers will have to do it there.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 3:24 am

Class over form any day. Besides which, the last time Monty was picked as a lone spinner he averaged 70.00 in the 3 test series in NZ.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 3:32 am

50 for Root. clap

Never doubt this man's ability.

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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 3:40 am

Yeah well played Root. Needs to go on though....couple of loose drives at Johnson worry me a bit , don't want to be making them any gifts - heaven knows they don't need them !
So far in this series England have tended to lose silly wickets on the rare occasions when they have been holding Australia up...this time they really need to make them work as long and as hard as they can.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 3:43 am

100 partnership clap

If nothing else, some pride has been restored by these two.

Another six and fifty for Pietersen. clap

Oooh Clarke looks edgy. Very Happy

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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 3:52 am

Some pride ...and some hope for the future , perhaps.

Two good players : pity they both threw their wickets away in the first innings ; this match might be in a very different place by now.

Trouble is , this side is five out all out at the moment ; and unless Johnson discovers his old rubbish side again I don't see that changing.

Fun for now at least.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 4:05 am

Ah, it all ends in tears. Now we are susceptible to collapse every now and then...

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 4:08 am

Pietersen plays on and is out for 53. England are 131 for 3. Massive wicket that. You feel that this pair need a 100 partnership now to see England through until the ckose of play to try to rekindle any hope.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 4:11 am

Runs have dried up again and the pressure has increased tenfold.

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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 4:28 am

Alas once again too little and not late enough...

All the top five have made fifties now in these Tests : but we need big hundreds , not fifties.

Would help if 6-11 could manage to hang around for more than a few balls each Smile 

Since I mentally conceded this match Saturday morning I can be philosophical about this. Still I retain my - possibly irrational - hopes for the later matches ; so I take some comfort from at least a glimpse of the real KP again. And the longer young Joe stays rooted to the crease the better.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 4:35 am

Ian Bell out to the worst ball of the test. He could have hit that anywhere, but picked out the fielder!

Collapse? We still haven't crossed 200 this series...

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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 4:48 am

Duty281 wrote:Ian Bell out to the worst ball of the test. He could have hit that anywhere, but picked out the fielder!

Collapse? We still haven't crossed 200 this series...
Funny how that seems to happen when you are in this sort of nightmare run. If an Australian batsman managed to hole out off a full toss at the moment it would probably turn out to be a no ball...

At least they made it to tea . More than I expected this morning. Would like to see them bring the Auusies back tomorrow to finish this , but I can't really see it Sad 

There is a sort of awful fascination in contemplating the evening session to come...

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 4:56 am

At tea England are 143 for 4 but it is still clear the only demons around Adelaide are not in the pitch but in the batsmen's heads. All four wickets that fell were not to superb bowling but more down to batsmen contributing to their downfall.

This match is over as a contest now but the crumbs of comfort are what England must look for. Further resistance from Root and a century would be good, Stokes offering support and sizeable score, Prior learning the art of scoring runs again and the tail to contribute and reztore an ounce of belief.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:07 am

Joe Root underlining why he should be England's opener. Defiance and perseverance personified.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:14 am

I don't think Root scores quickly enough to be an opener. He has done a decent job at No.3 though. I do like how he remains unflustered - gives nothing for the Aussies to feed off.
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Post by Pal Joey Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:19 am

He still looks fragile on wickets with more pace and bounce. He's looked more in control in this innings though as the life has gone out of the pitch. Deserves a ton for his efforts.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:30 am

I just hope that when Prior gets in - hopefully not tonight! - he regains some confidence with a decent score. He's on the floor at the moment with regards to his batting, and he just needs something.

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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:35 am

Linebreaker wrote:He still looks fragile on wickets with more pace and bounce. He's looked more in control in this innings though as the life has gone out of the pitch. Deserves a ton for his efforts.
Think most batsmen look more in control on flat pitches , LB Smile  But I do take your point.

One should remember this is a very young player who is still only a year into his career. I like what I see , and I think he could yet become a success anywhere in the order, though perhaps the middle order is a more natural home for him at the moment.
Of course England don't really have the luxury of putting everyone in his ideal spot right now.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:37 am

Duty281 wrote:I just hope that when Prior gets in - hopefully not tonight! - he regains some confidence with a decent score. He's on the floor at the moment with regards to his batting, and he just needs something.
Precisely. Each England player that comes in now has to use this as an oportunity to play themselves into a bit of form, instill some self-belief and be in better shape for Perth.
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Post by Pal Joey Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:38 am

Oh yeah, alfie. This tour will be a very valuable experience for him. I like what I see too. Smile 
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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:40 am

Oh Joe. Sad

Terrific catch, and that is surely the last vestige of resistance extinguished.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:40 am

Oh dear Root falls on 87. England 171 for 5 and could be staring at defeat today unless the lower order develops a back bone. A shame for Root as he had worked so hard.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:45 am

Stokes now playing for a place in the side at Perth you feel. If he doesn't contribute with the bat here he probably won't make the side.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:48 am

http://uk.weather.com/weather/hourByHour-ASXX0001:1:AS?pagenum=3&nextbeginIndex=18

The weather forecast may make Australia a bit edgy if England see out the 24 overs tonight.

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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:49 am

Hope the tail can resist a bit this time. So far they have actually made the Aussies work a bit for once so it would be nice to avoid one of those 5 falling for 9 runs fold ups.
Prior playing for his place ?

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Post by Pal Joey Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:49 am

He is under considerable pressure to perform.

another wasted review from Clarke...
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:56 am

alfie wrote:Hope the tail can resist a bit this time.  So far they have actually made the Aussies work a bit for once so it would be nice to avoid one of those 5 falling for 9 runs fold ups.
Prior playing for his place ?
Well Prior's batting is all over the place just now but in the wicket-keeping department I don't see there is another option.
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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 6:10 am

Only Bairstow ...

But when the team can't muster 200 in four innings it is difficult to justify a wicket keeper who can't buy a run. Let us hope he can get some here and put the issue to bed.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 6:12 am

Bairstow never exactly scored big when he was in the side either and by all accounts is not as good a wicket-keeper as Prior.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 6:32 am

200 up for England! Yahoo

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Post by Pal Joey Sun 08 Dec 2013, 6:34 am

Duty281 wrote:200 up for England! Yahoo
clap 

I thought everyone had gone to sleep.
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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 6:37 am

Duty281 wrote:200 up for England! Yahoo
Start of the comeback Smile 

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 6:39 am

Well at least England can feed on a few meagre crumbs of comfort from this loss. In the second innings the batting has shown more mental aptitude and fight with Pietersen getting a score, Root looking very good and perhaps Prior rebuilding shattered confidence. Stokes also not surrendering his wicket without a fight. It is some positives they can try to build on. England 202 for 5 with the new ball an over away.
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Post by Duty281 Sun 08 Dec 2013, 6:39 am

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:200 up for England! Yahoo
Start of the comeback Smile 
England will probably tighten up a bit now to ensure they have plenty of wickets in hand to really go for the win in the final session tomorrow. Wink

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Post by Pal Joey Sun 08 Dec 2013, 6:41 am

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:200 up for England! Yahoo
Start of the comeback Smile 
We'll all look back on this as a major turning point in the Series. Smile

ooh... what's that? 2nd new ball. Here we go. Buckle up fellas!
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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 6:51 am

Duty281 wrote:
alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:200 up for England! Yahoo
Start of the comeback Smile 
England will probably tighten up a bit now to ensure they have plenty of wickets in hand to really go for the win in the final session tomorrow. Wink
Nah ...some rain about tomorrow. Won't have time to make the kill...lucky Aussies Smile 

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 7:02 am

And Stokes resistance ends on 28. I wonder if Australia will ask for the extra half hour? England 210 for 6.
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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 7:18 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:And Stokes resistance ends on 28. I wonder if Australia will ask for the extra half hour? England 210 for 6.
Would need another wicket I think.   Will take it like a shot if they can.


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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 7:21 am

Broad not messing about blocking...

Only need another 300 now Smile 

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 7:37 am

And England survive to fight another day closing on 247 for 6. Defeat looks certain but it speaks volumes for how poor England have been in this series as this probably rates as one of their best days.

At least Pietersen, Root, Stokes, Prior and Broad have acquitted themselves much better, hung around, frustrated the Aussies scoring some runs and perhaps restoring a modicum of confidence and self belief.

The negatives have to the way wickets have fallen to far from dazzling bowling and more down to poor shot choice. Cook, Carberry, Pietersen and Bell will all be kicking themselves.
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Post by alfie Sun 08 Dec 2013, 7:44 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:And England survive to fight another day closing on 247 for 6. Defeat looks certain but it speaks volumes for how poor England have been in this series as this probably rates as one of their best days.

At least Pietersen, Root, Stokes, Prior and Broad have acquitted tthemselvesmuch better, hung around, frustrated the Aussies scoring some runs and pergaps restoring a modicum of confidence and self belief.

The negatives have to the way wickets have fallen to far from dazzling bowling and more down to poor shot choice. Cook, Carberry, Pietersen and Bell will all be kicking themselves.
Pretty much the perfect summary , Craig thumbsup 

Though I do credit Johnson for a good bouncer that Cook slightly mishit , and Siddle for bowling a good line to KP.

Hopefully actually batting for a full day will lead to a bit more confidence in the team when going out to bat in the less than hospitable arena at the WACA .

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 8:04 am

Clearly, if England had batted in the first innings with the same application and mental toughness shown in patches in the second innings they would have avoided the follow on. In short England took a shot gun and blew their own foot off with that first innings batting display.
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Post by KP_fan Sun 08 Dec 2013, 9:06 am

--as I said yesterday when Johnson's lightening spells do not strike..Eng look like scoring 270-300ish with some help from lower middle order...as their par scores

--and even those par scores don't help when you concede 570 runs.

--there are 2 problems to England's ( read Flower's ) approach

1) they believe purely by defensive bowling they can restrict a side....nope..you've gotta have the firepower to pick many wickets..and hence have to pick explosive fast bowlers, even when they concede a few runs.

2) Bat positively...play your strokes.....and end up with a RR of no less than 3.25.....means even iof you last 90 overs....300 is up

Losing with a fight......playing with passion, flair and pride...putting your best foot forward... is what fans look for....and that has increasingly been missing from Eng.

instead they have been concsious of  "having acheived something big....Trying too hard to preserve their percieved success, playing under fear of losing....resulting in attritional cricket."...and a püretty steep decline

there is still time in this series.....play fearlessly, play with pride and do not worry about results...if Swann, Prior, KP and Broad are the men with these qualities...and should be allowed to express their natural personality......instead of playing from Flower's script...will hold Eng in much better shape.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun 08 Dec 2013, 11:03 am

Sorry but I am missing something here but how come England have won big series in the recent past with the same Andy Flower at the helm?

A trained chimp could tell you why England have struggled so much in this series - the batsmen unable to post a remotely competitive score.
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Post by mystiroakey Sun 08 Dec 2013, 11:24 am

The biggest positive is prior...


Root played well first innings, he just got out to a premeditated shot to Lyon first ball  and got done on the bounce. But he is clever and intelligent . Next innings he didn't play that shot again. Yet still has the ability to play different shots to still put the spinner under pressure, which was the whole point of what he did the innings before . He learns every game . 

Root has the full range of shots, he is a waste down the order..

Not sure I understand the natural middle order comments.. He just isn't . He is a natural batsman though..

Carbery worries me big time. He doesn't seem a great partner to have .

He does play fearless cricket though. He knows what he is doing , he understands his best way of batting and just sticks to it..

Not an England player though. Not by any stretch. 

Root back to open,bell at 3, Kp 4 , ballance 5, stokes has just done enough to keep his place at 6 and prior has also just done enough to keep his place at 7.

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Post by Born Slippy Sun 08 Dec 2013, 3:29 pm

Some positive signs. I actually thought England batted well for the most part yesterday. The fact they aren't 240/3 rather than 240/6 was more due to the way luck goes against you when you are under the cosh rather than any particular issues with the batting.

I think I'd drop Monty and bring in Finn for Perth. Stokes has done enough to have another shot. I would keep the rest of the team the same.

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Post by mystiroakey Sun 08 Dec 2013, 4:23 pm

100% - monty out and finn in

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Post by Stella Sun 08 Dec 2013, 5:45 pm

Bresnan?

Good fourth day effort but too late, unless it rains or we bat like never before.
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