4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

First topic message reminder :

The Boxing Day test match is upon us people!

There are rumoured to be a few changes to the England side, one of course enforced with the retirement on Graeme Swann. There hasn't been too much about who will replace him, Panesar would be the obvious choice. The other all but confirmed move will be Jonny Bairstow taking Prior's place.


Australia:
CJL Rogers, DA Warner, SR Watson, MJ Clarke*, SPD Smith, GJ Bailey, BJ Haddin†, MG Johnson, PM Siddle, RJ Harris, NM Lyon

England:
AN Cook*, MA Carberry, JE Root, KP Pietersen, IR Bell, BA Stokes, JM Bairstow†, SCJ Broad, TT Bresnan, JM Anderson, MS Panesar


With the series already over, lets hope we just get to see some good cricket. From an English point of view, lets not lose 5-0!!

Now back to the Christmas pudding for me...

Duty281 wrote:England's batting may be as pathetic as a drunk in the street, but our bowling can be magical. So put the bigger picture to one side, the 3-0 and the 5-0, forget it for now.

10 wickets, and England have a famous win at the MCG. One that we'll be able to drag the DVDs out of for many years to come.

Remember how Anderson took the Aussies on single-handed at Trent Bridge?
Remember how Broad did likewise in Durham?
Remember how Panesar had them on the run seven years ago, and remained unbowed in Cardiff?
Remember how Bresnan took the winning wicket here last time?

Remember.

Think how glorious tomorrow Sunday's roast will be after a gallant English win. Think how good the feeling of victory will be after all these horror days. Think about how England can hold their heads up with some pride after a masterful comeback.

Think it. Picture it. Dream it. Believe it.

We're not dead yet.

Come on England!

I have to say I'm amazed at how many English type persons have written their team off at this stage of the match, so your optimism is a welcome change. The MCG has a record of low fourth innings totals so nothing will surprise me. Having said that I guess your team hasn't given much cause for such optimism on this tour so far.

Good luck with your Sunday roast... but I hope to be tucking into my Sunday barbeque with a serving of relish and exultation! May the better side win!

Duty281 wrote:Relax, this is going to be the best thing to happen to English cricket in the long-run.

Get battered now, and we at last draw a line under the last four years - and the tired team we have been since the UAE.

Cook should stay as captain - this experience will make him all the stronger - but I do really think it's time for Flower to go. Then England can start again with a renewed impetus.

You will never, ever convince me that this Australian team is better than this English team because, quite frankly, they're not. England were 5/10 in the summer, but they've been 2/10 in this series. Tired and pathetic. More a case of England being bad than Australia being good, although Australia have been plenty of the latter at times.

5-0? Bring it on. It could just be the perfect tonic for England in the long-run - similar to when Australia humilated England in the rugby once, and a few years later, England were world champions.

Come on Australia - humiliate us. England needs it.

preemptive spin
doesn't overide the ignominy.

I am surprised though that you are not counting on Broad and Anderson ripping apart Aus batting tomm.....200 more to get....a collapse if actually realistically possible

If they get rid of flower....70% of the problem is solved.

instead of Cook being a " script-implementer" as of now......should be the leader...calling shots and making decisions....give him 10 tests and see where he goes.

ELSE find another captain...check if George Bailey has some English lineage

and slo bring some really fast pace bowlers..throw them in young......that left arm seamer and Finn and Rankin and Meaker.........throw them all in like Pak does......and even if one or two come good.........the move has paid back

JDizzle wrote:I'm sure Guildford or the Corporal will pop up with some comments once they sniff out a mention of Surrey!   

Bairstow clearly isn't the guy. His technique is horribly flawed and this is one of the rare occasions where I really can't see what the management were thinking when they dropped Prior for him. It just strikes me as a desperate move more out of hope than expectation that he could perform better.

Admittedly I've not seen much of Davies's keeping, but Buttler's keeping is more than competent. Certainly at limited overs level. He doesn't have much experience of keeping in the longer form of the game, which could be a test especially standing up top spinners for long spells, but he has the athleticism and basic ability to be a good keeper. He is a better keeper than JB IMO.

Nice one, JD.   

Dug out this post of mine from 7 December on the ''2nd Test Adelaide'' thread. It was in response to one from Mike stating Prior shouldn't be above being dropped on form and suggesting Davies as a possible stop-gap whilst viewing Bairstow as not an international keeper.

''I've seen Davies quite a lot at the Oval and also met him on one occasion. He came across as thoughtful and rather quiet. Obviously nothing wrong with that as an individual. Nor, in my opinion, as a wicket keeper although he's clearly different from the more mouthy, aggressive keeper often sought by county and international sides. It's noticeable at the Oval that Wilson (Ireland's keeper and Davies' deputy at Surrey) can be heard all round the ground barking out comments and encouragement when he's behind the stumps whilst Davies is rarely audible. I believe this was an issue with England in the past. If so, it's unfortunate as, on song, he's a very clasy batsman and highly efficient keeper.

However and that said, Davies' all round form hasn't been so good or consistent over the last season and a half since Maynard's death. He's on record as saying that it badly impacted him and, I fear, still does.

I saw Bairstow keep for Yorks in Surrey's final home CC match of the season ('Sibley's match'). You are right - he's a long way short of international standard.''

SLC v2 wrote:

I have to say I'm amazed at how many English type persons have written their team off at this stage of the match, so your optimism is a welcome change. The MCG has a record of low fourth innings totals so nothing will surprise me. Having said that I guess your team hasn't given much cause for such optimism on this tour so far.

SLC - yes, the MCG has a record of low fourth innings totals and, furthermore, Australia have to get within 25 runs of the highest innings score of this match. I therefore haven't written England off at this stage but do have to admit that I don't have much confidence in them getting a win. The main reason for that is, as you suggest, England's form to date.

I mentioned recently that imo too many posters have been overly sympathetic to England's disappointing performances when bowling to Australia second time round in this series. I certainly accept that the major blame lies with the England batsmen (so calm down, calm down, Hoggy!   ) and maybe it's been too late to undo their self inflicted damage but nonetheless the bowling (in much of the Australian second innings throughout this series) could and should have been a lot better and more effective. If not an opportunity now to prove me wrong, certainly an opportunity to go some way to putting things right.

We're definitely going to have get Warner back in the hutch early doors. More than an hour of him and 4-0 can probably start being chalked up ....

Yeah if Warner is there after drinks, I'd pretty much throw the fat lady on to the stage waving a white flag.

I feel England needed at least one wicket in that little session last night. It means they now need a superb morning with a minimum of three wickets and probably more realistically four wickets whilst keeping runs scored down to a bare minimum. I just don't see it happening unless there has been some deterioration in the wicket.

guildfordbat wrote:

JDizzle wrote:I'm sure Guildford or the Corporal will pop up with some comments once they sniff out a mention of Surrey!   

Bairstow clearly isn't the guy. His technique is horribly flawed and this is one of the rare occasions where I really can't see what the management were thinking when they dropped Prior for him. It just strikes me as a desperate move more out of hope than expectation that he could perform better.

Admittedly I've not seen much of Davies's keeping, but Buttler's keeping is more than competent. Certainly at limited overs level. He doesn't have much experience of keeping in the longer form of the game, which could be a test especially standing up top spinners for long spells, but he has the athleticism and basic ability to be a good keeper. He is a better keeper than JB IMO.

Nice one, JD.   

Dug out this post of mine from 7 December on the ''2nd Test Adelaide'' thread. It was in response to one from Mike stating Prior shouldn't be above being dropped on form and suggesting Davies as a possible stop-gap whilst viewing Bairstow as not an international keeper.

''I've seen Davies quite a lot at the Oval and also met him on one occasion. He came across as thoughtful and rather quiet. Obviously nothing wrong with that as an individual. Nor, in my opinion, as a wicket keeper although he's clearly different from the more mouthy, aggressive keeper often sought by county and international sides. It's noticeable at the Oval that Wilson (Ireland's keeper and Davies' deputy at Surrey) can be heard all round the ground barking out comments and encouragement when he's behind the stumps whilst Davies is rarely audible. I believe this was an issue with England in the past. If so, it's unfortunate as, on song, he's a very clasy batsman and highly efficient keeper.

However and that said, Davies' all round form hasn't been so good or consistent over the last season and a half since Maynard's death. He's on record as saying that it badly impacted him and, I fear, still does.

I saw Bairstow keep for Yorks in Surrey's final home CC match of the season ('Sibley's match'). You are right - he's a long way short of international standard.''

Knew I could rely on you Guildford! Was sure I'd read that about Davies somewhere, thanks for confirming.   

There are two ways off analyzing this, Craig -
1) Australia are changing 231 with a line-up up that was 164-9, at a ground where 231 is an upper echelon chase.

or

2) Australia need 201 to win with ten wickets in hand, an older ball, a batsman with with two centuries and an unbeaten 80-odd in his last second innings efforts, two days to play, and an attack yet to take ten second innings wickets.

kingraf wrote:There are two ways off analyzing this, Craig -
1) Australia are changing 231 with a line-up up that was 164-9, at a ground where 231 is an upper echelon chase.

or

2) Australia need 201 to win with ten wickets in hand,  an older ball, a batsman with with two centuries and an unbeaten 80-odd in his last second innings efforts, two days to play, and an attack yet to take ten second innings wickets.

Being an England and Birmingham City fan (and, therefore, a pessimist with many years of evidential support), I'm opting for the latter.

Yes kingraf but also you need to look at the mental mindset. Are England well-positioned to steamroller Australia out for less than 200 today - most definitely not after their disintegration with the bat yesterday and the previous three tests mental scars. Meanwhile, Australia will be buoyed by their comeback yesterday and will have back their aura of invincibility. A team on such a mental high I cannot see not chasing down such a moderate total.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes kingraf but also you need to look at the mental mindset. Are England well-positioned to steamroller Australia out for less than 200 today - most definitely not after their disintegration with the bat yesterday and the previous three tests mental scars. Meanwhile, Australia will be buoyed by their comeback yesterday and will have back their aura of invincibility. A team on such a mental high I cannot see not chasing down such a moderate total.

I'm quite sure that Raf hadn't overlooked this. His second alternative - particularly the reference to ''an attack yet to take ten second innings wickets'' - was already sufficiently and horribly clear.

Prior takes that.

Bairstow's keeping...

Oh dear Johnny. That was Bairstow's to catch but didn't move. Incidents like that just increases my belief that Australia have this in the bag.

That's club cricket standard wicket keeping. Feet planted, no way first slip should be diving that far towards the keeper. Extremely poor

JDizzle wrote:Prior takes that.

He didn't in Perth.

One of those tricky ones. Keeper certainly should have gone , but it was on the edge of his zone...when your team is hot , the slip holds it anyway...

The break they needed ...and didn't get. Not sure why Broad has now come off ?

And now Cook drops a dolly off Stokes   

Don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I Believe the term is, "oops"

Wow. Australia trying to gift their wickets but England can't even take those chances.

I guess three and a half crushing defeats will do that to you...

Think I'm gonna go to bed...probably for the best...

Bairstow misses something he should have taken.
Cook drops the easiest chance of his career.

Still...the chances are coming.

alfie wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Prior takes that.

He didn't in Perth.

One of those tricky ones.  Keeper certainly should have gone , but it was on the edge of his zone...when your team is hot , the slip holds it anyway...

The break they needed ...and didn't get.   Not sure why Broad has now come off ?

And now Cook drops a dolly off Stokes   

Don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Must have missed that one Alfie, apologies, I've tried to watch as little as possible! Still feel Prior takes that more often than not though.

Now Cook drops Warner... It can't get any worse.

Did I really just see that passage of play?  

The inevitable Bairstow bashing continues... The concerns with his keeping are justified (the ridiculous sweeping cowpat statements are not) but I'd be interested to know how many have actually seen him keep for long enough to form an opinion.

Anyway, the supposed leader of the team drops a dolly. Incredible fielding from England this series. Reminds me of when they got beaten by SA 18 months ago - any sniff the opposition give them, they just can't help themselves.

Root bowling rather than Panesar...tells you everything about Cook's mindset.

Poor old Monty must be wondering why he was called up.

To be fair to Cook - I stand in the slips, and there is no such thing as an easy slip catch. There are regulation slip catches, but that isn't the same thing. When you have a lot on your mind, the slips is an impossible place, as you are standing at angle, and the ball sort of accelerates after the edge.

The Proteas fielding coach is an ex-baseball coach, and he always remarks at the ridiculous concentrations required to stand at the cordon. Not excusing Cook, as that's pretty basic as slip catches go, but there's a reason slips are a specialist position

Quite a good idea from Cook bowling Root I thought. Spinning it away from the two left handers and might tempt Warner into something stupid. Would maybe give him a thrid over but then get him off. Not really a slight on Panesar.

Racing along now.   

Yay. Credit where credit is due, fairly regulation catch but JB held it well; can't have been easy with what has been happening.

Surely those drops have just about drained the last life from the bowlers ...

Or not...Warner gone   

Stokes strikes. Two more quick ones and and we might start to dream again...

Well, well...Bairstow finally keeps hold of one.

Still with only 160-odd needed and 9 wickets in hand, the outcome is still pretty inevitable. Hopefully the Aussies will put us out of our misery fairly soon.

the mid-tour T20 seems to have regressed Warners game about two years, seems to have completely forgotten how to build a Test innings.

kingraf wrote:To be fair to Cook - I stand in the slips, and there is no such thing as an easy slip catch. There are regulation slip catches, but that isn't the same thing. When you have a lot on your mind, the slips is an impossible place, as you are standing at angle, and the ball sort of accelerates after the edge.

The Proteas fielding coach is an ex-baseball coach, and he always remarks at the ridiculous concentrations required to stand at the cordon. Not excusing Cook, as that's pretty basic as slip catches go, but there's a reason slips are a specialist position

True. If your mind is even slightly distracted , slips can be a dangerous spot. I have spent a lot of time there , as captain and bowler ; and can recall too many times when I probably shouldn't have.

Trouble is , Cook is the regular first slip , and he can't very well move out to mid off to clear his head whenever he feels like it. Especially. There aren't too many slip specialists around now in this eleven.

He will feel a bit better now Warner has gone   

dyrewolfe wrote:Well, well...Bairstow finally keeps hold of one.

Still with only 160-odd needed and 9 wickets in hand, the outcome is still pretty inevitable. Hopefully the Aussies will put us out of our misery fairly soon.

Probably. Though it was around the same score yesterday when England lost their first wicket...

Life there for Rogers...almost bowled, before picking off the next delivery to bring up his 50. Decent and largely trouble-free knock.

Rogers is having a bit of luck with his edges...

Fifty   

But I hope he has used up all the luck for the rest of the team by now   

Eighty up...time for two or three wickets to fall quickly ?

alfie wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:Well, well...Bairstow finally keeps hold of one.

Still with only 160-odd needed and 9 wickets in hand, the outcome is still pretty inevitable. Hopefully the Aussies will put us out of our misery fairly soon.

Probably. Though it was around the same score yesterday when England lost their first wicket...

True, but Aussie batting collapses have been less common this series...and even when they do happen, there have always been a couple of players to dig them out of trouble. Such are the margins between victory and defeat...

alfie wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Prior takes that.

He didn't in Perth.

One of those tricky ones.  Keeper certainly should have gone , but it was on the edge of his zone...when your team is hot , the slip holds it anyway...

Alfie - the issue really though is that Bairstow is showing himself to be the equal of an out of form Prior rather than superior.

Liverbnz - not much but did at least see Bairstow keeping last season at the Oval when Surrey's 18 year old Dominic Sibley became the youngest player to score 200 in a CC match. Bairstow seemed to suffer lapses in concentration as he missed a couple of regulation chances offered by the teenager. A key aspect also is that Bairstow hasn't actually kept much.

In my view, the need for a specialist wicket keeper will become more paramount if we are to immediately seek a young replacement for Swann. The new spinner (particularly a young one) will need all the support he can get and especially from behind the stumps. A lesson from cricketing history which we might need to learn again - Underwood was a great (or near to great) bowler but would never have reached such heights without Knott keeping to him.

So it wasn't Warner, but Rogers has done the equivalent job to drinks. He's ripped England to ribbons (well he hasn't, but he's ripped their hopes to ribbons) with this knock. fantastic for Rogers. 150 with 9 wickets in hand. Even if The top order can't get it done, you have to back the real batsman (Haddin and friends) to get Australia over the line.

kingraf wrote:So it wasn't Warner, but Rogers has done the equivalent job to drinks. He's ripped England to ribbons (well he hasn't, but he's ripped their hopes to ribbons) with this knock. fantastic for Rogers. 150 with 9 wickets in hand. Even if The top order can't get it done, you have to back the real batsman (Haddin and friends) to get Australia over the line.

Yes, have to go with that, Raf.

Atherton making a decent point on Sky that with the Ashes already won there's a lack of pressure on Australia and they're much less likely to crumble than they did, for example, in Durham this summer.

Runs flowing freely for Australia. Can't see this lasting very long after lunch.

guildfordbat wrote:

kingraf wrote:So it wasn't Warner, but Rogers has done the equivalent job to drinks. He's ripped England to ribbons (well he hasn't, but he's ripped their hopes to ribbons) with this knock. fantastic for Rogers. 150 with 9 wickets in hand. Even if The top order can't get it done, you have to back the real batsman (Haddin and friends) to get Australia over the line.

Yes, have to go with that, Raf.

Atherton making a decent point on Sky that with the Ashes already won there's a lack of pressure on Australia and they're much less likely to crumble than they did, for example, in Durham this summer.

Could also be due to the fact they're playing in conditions and on pitches they're more comfortable with.

Hi guildford...look I am not suggesting Bairstow is going to be a long term England keeper - I rather doubt he will.
But I do think people are a bit keen to put the boot into him at the least provocation. Was an error , yes. But probably wouldn't be getting quite so much attention were it not for the team's current troubles ...and the understandable uneasiness about the prior (Prior) situation.

First mistake he has made. Let us see how he keeps to Monty ...who must surely bowl now ?

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Prior takes that.

He didn't in Perth.

One of those tricky ones.  Keeper certainly should have gone , but it was on the edge of his zone...when your team is hot , the slip holds it anyway...

Alfie - the issue really though is that Bairstow is showing himself to be the equal of an out of form Prior rather than superior.

Liverbnz - not much but did at least see Bairstow keeping last season at the Oval when Surrey's 18 year old Dominic Sibley became the youngest player to score 200 in a CC match. Bairstow seemed to suffer lapses in concentration as he missed a couple of regulation chances offered by the teenager. A key aspect also is that Bairstow hasn't actually kept much.

In my view, the need for a specialist wicket keeper will become more paramount if we are to immediately seek a young replacement for Swann. The new spinner (particularly a young one) will need all the support he can get and especially from behind the stumps. A lesson from cricketing history which we might need to learn again - Underwood was a great (or near to great) bowler but would never have reached such heights without Knott keeping to him.

That's a fair point guildford, my point wasn't really aimed at you anyway. He's not Test class (wicket keeping wise) but the guns were out before the gloves were on which is really unfair on him. He needs more practice, so England should let him be for a few years instead of bringing him round the world to carry the drinks. His last few years have basicially been wasted. He was picked too early, but its not too late for him, if not a wk, then a batsman at least.

Monty might not be the future solution for English spin problems, but he's been properly shafted today. The club of SLA with over 150 wickets isn't a particularly long one, and he's in it, not to mention his 12 5w hauls... for Root to be bowling ahead of him for this long is pretty healthy spit on his face (or his ratings face)... the type with the yellow gob, and green phlegm.

kingraf wrote:Monty might not be the future solution for English spin problems, but he's been properly shafted today. The club of SLA with over 150 wickets isn't a particularly long one, and he's in it, not to mention his 12 5w hauls... for Root to be bowling ahead of him for this long is pretty healthy spit on his face (or his ratings face)... the type with the yellow gob, and green phlegm.

Lovely. You'd make a fantastic TMS summariser.

kingraf wrote:Monty might not be the future solution for English spin problems, but he's been properly shafted today. The club of SLA with over 150 wickets isn't a particularly long one, and he's in it, not to mention his 12 5w hauls... for Root to be bowling ahead of him for this long is pretty healthy spit on his face (or his ratings face)... the type with the yellow gob, and green phlegm.

Very odd , today. I think Cook has sometimes tended to overuse Monty when he has been in the team (not talking about India , of course ) ; but this morning it has looked as if he just doesn't trust him...

Weird.

kingraf wrote:Monty might not be the future solution for English spin problems, but he's been properly shafted today. The club of SLA with over 150 wickets isn't a particularly long one, and he's in it, not to mention his 12 5w hauls... for Root to be bowling ahead of him for this long is pretty healthy spit on his face (or his ratings face)... the type with the yellow gob, and green phlegm.

Not the wording I would have posted but you reflect my surprise and unease about Panesar only coming on to bowl for the first time today with Australia more than half way to their victory target.   

thanks dyre - do email it for me, would love to see it there!

Just read a review of the new Robert Redford film All is Lost.
Seemed apt.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Just read a review of the new Robert Redford film All is Lost.
Seemed apt.

  

Not quite. Still Sydney to lose...

Interesting stat in the morning paper : in 2013 , no team , apart from Bangladesh and Zimbabwe , has lost a Test at home.