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4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 25 Dec 2013, 7:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

The Boxing Day test match is upon us people!

There are rumoured to be a few changes to the England side, one of course enforced with the retirement on Graeme Swann. There hasn't been too much about who will replace him, Panesar would be the obvious choice. The other all but confirmed move will be Jonny Bairstow taking Prior's place.


Australia:
CJL Rogers, DA Warner, SR Watson, MJ Clarke*, SPD Smith, GJ Bailey, BJ Haddin†, MG Johnson, PM Siddle, RJ Harris, NM Lyon

England:
AN Cook*, MA Carberry, JE Root, KP Pietersen, IR Bell, BA Stokes, JM Bairstow†, SCJ Broad, TT Bresnan, JM Anderson, MS Panesar


With the series already over, lets hope we just get to see some good cricket. From an English point of view, lets not lose 5-0!!

Now back to the Christmas pudding for me...
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Dec 2013, 8:28 am

alfie wrote:
Olly wrote:So Bairstow still gets bowled by straight deliveries. And we're still yet to see his p!ss poor keeping. Kids never gonna be good enough

Give the man a chance , Olly !  At least let him put the bloody gloves on before you start dissing his keeping...

He's not a good keeper! And has this rather big technical flaw where he gets bowled by anything remotely straight and fast. I don't think he had a future in the summer and I don't now. Not a fan.

Also will Carberry ever learn how to leave the goddamn ball?
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Post by KP_fan Thu 26 Dec 2013, 8:53 am

alfie wrote:Are we meant to infer from KP_fan's meandering post that the main factor in England's pedestrian progress with the bat today was the continued selection of Bresnan ?

..

AND
dead defensive batting

the lack of a fast bowler means...the lower order of Aus will get away froom 300ish to 400ish

and defensive batting means in the same overs that Eng last...they might finish with 270 instead of 350

so instead of Eng 350
Aus 300

the scoreline might look like Eng 270
Aus 400

and that's where Eng has lost 1st and 3rd test
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Post by KP_fan Thu 26 Dec 2013, 8:55 am

Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:
Olly wrote:So Bairstow still gets bowled by straight deliveries. And we're still yet to see his p!ss poor keeping. Kids never gonna be good enough

Give the man a chance , Olly !  At least let him put the bloody gloves on before you start dissing his keeping...

He's not a good keeper! And has this rather big technical flaw where he gets bowled by anything remotely straight and fast. I don't think he had a future in the summer and I don't now. Not a fan.

Also will Carberry ever learn how to leave the goddamn ball?

it is a mistake to drop Prior....we have seen when in good form what Prior can do.

we have seen in whatever form bairstow cannot handle full, fast straight bolwing coming in a little bit

there was no need to drop Prior.....knee jerk scapegoat
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Dec 2013, 8:59 am

As for England's slow run rate, probably down to a few things;

1. Everyone is out of form.
2. Nobody has any confidence
3. The Aussies are bowling pretty damn well.

Put those three together and you saw the outcome today
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Post by KP_fan Thu 26 Dec 2013, 9:07 am

Olly wrote:As for England's slow run rate, probably down to a few things;

1. Everyone is out of form.
2. Nobody has any confidence
3. The Aussies are bowling pretty damn well.

Put those three together and you saw the outcome today

these excuses can be applied to every slow-rate batting ever  laughing 
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Dec 2013, 9:09 am

KP_fan wrote:
Olly wrote:As for England's slow run rate, probably down to a few things;

1. Everyone is out of form.
2. Nobody has any confidence
3. The Aussies are bowling pretty damn well.

Put those three together and you saw the outcome today

these excuses can be applied to every slow-rate batting ever  laughing 

Sorry I forgot it was an Andy Flower sabotage...
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Post by Mike Selig Thu 26 Dec 2013, 10:09 am

Morning all.

At this time of year I take advantage of my grandparents' sky subscription to stay up through the night; I am obviously getting old though  Very Happy as I could only make the first 2 sessions - no doubt the somewhat erm attritional nature of the play didn't help keep me awake!

Actually that's not fair or accurate, as I did find it interesting. Here follows my usual long ramble of thoughts.

First of all, record crowd! Have been to the MCG for the previous 3 ashes (including Warnie's 700th), and it really is an awesome ground.

I personally wouldn't have bowled first, but then I had only seen the pitch on TV, so am scarcely qualified to comment. Having said that I'm a bit surprised Clarke departed from his modus-operandi, and wonder whether he would have done so had the series been live still. Not saying it's the wrong decision necessarily.

The consensus seems to be that Australia are on top. Whilst they probably are, I think it is a bit more marginal than people are making out. It seems likely that England will finish somewhere between 250 and 300, which is competitive (they may of course score more if the much maligned Bresnan can stick around), if on the face of things below "par". However I wonder if roles were reversed whether we would consider the bowling side on top? Australia's top order are going to have to bat well to deliver them a lead - Haddin can't keep getting them out of trouble can he?

The main talking point is of course England's slow scoring. The trouble is it kept Australia in the game when they weren't taking wickets. Australia only took 3 wickets in their first 70 overs of bowling, but you always felt they had the game under control. I think alfie got it right early on when he bemoaned some of the running, and also not looking enough for singles: the whole time I was watching cover was open, so drop and run - particularly when the less agile Rogers was at mid-off.

Australia bowled very well, after a nervy opening 40 minutes or so when they were overanxious to get wickets. Once they settled in and it became the pitch, which offered a bit throughout, was by no means a green top, they were really excellent, and gave a masterclass in controlling the game bowling first. Harris was undoubtedly the pick, but Johnson bowled some very good spells and was steaming in at the end of the day still, whilst Siddle did as Siddle does. Watson's injury didn't affect them as much as it could have.

Cook for me looked all over the place. He has developed a lot of parasite movements in his set-up (his head moves down and up and down, he seems to have two back-lifts, and the feet shuffle around). All this means he's struggling to pick up length and move his feet, so playing a lot just with his hands. There were a number of occasions when his hands just about got him out of trouble despite being in a terrible position, but not quite so for his dismissal. There is no quick and easy fix - eventually time off and work on it in the nets, but errors in technique creep in, are magnified by poor form, and take time to correct.

Root also looked beyond scratchy, so much so that I have no idea how he survived 70odd balls. He showed good character, but doesn't fill me with confidence for a number 3.

Carberry still seems limited, but does know those limitations. Battled well, got away with a few, seems to know his game. Unfortunately his partnership with Root rather set the tone for the day; the fact that he's a poor runner between the wickets doesn't help, but he needs to find a way to keep the scoreboard moving - apart from one nudge wide of mid-on, I can't recall any "good" single he took (by which I mean not one hit to fine-leg). I'm not sure this round the wicket stuff has him in as much trouble as the commentators are making out, and to be fair his dismissal swung back quite a way, I wouldn't blame him too much.

Pietersen battled, and hopefully his detractors will recognise that. He did have a major slice of luck when Coulter-Nile failed to judge that catch properly - a poor effort, in today's game you practice those kind of catches a lot, and he had quite a bit of space and time to play with; it looks like he lost his awareness of where the boundary was. Bailey's drop was tough, he was there for the flick, not the full-blooded pull. Overall Australia's fielding was a bit below what they'd hope for: a few minor misfields, some off-target throws.

Perspectives for tomorrow: with a newish ball still, and Johnson and co rested, it's hard to see England's tail put up that much resistance, but of course they conceivably could. England will be delighted with anything over 300, whilst Australia will be looking at 260ish. Whatever, it will be competitive and Australia will have to bat well to get on top properly. I'm not sure this pitch will deteriorate much, but it may take an increasing amount of turn later on. Lyon was spinning a few quite sharply.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 26 Dec 2013, 10:28 am

Yes! England doing far better than I anticipated. Thought England might have been in for a skittling.

Outside chance of 300 here, and then Monty to twirl them into submission.

5-3, we're gonna win 5-3, etc.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 26 Dec 2013, 10:35 am

Olly wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Olly wrote:As for England's slow run rate, probably down to a few things;

1. Everyone is out of form.
2. Nobody has any confidence
3. The Aussies are bowling pretty damn well.

Put those three together and you saw the outcome today

these excuses can be applied to every slow-rate batting ever  laughing 

Sorry I forgot it was an Andy Flower sabotage...

...sabotage is obviously your attempt to sarcasm.
But the defensive approach of Eng has Flower written all over it......trundlers who can bat a bit instead of fast bowling potential wicket takers

and attrition defensive batting.

it's not working...but Flowr has npt learnt the lesson...just not willing to get more attacking and agressive...and hence will not be able top produce a diffrent result

as I said...same script as previous matches

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Post by CaledonianCraig Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:59 am

The last two Ashes Series in Australia in the first innings at Melbourne the scores have been 98 and 158 so perhaps this score is not so disastrous as it first seems. I think a score of 300 for England will be a good start by their standards in this series if they can reach that mark.
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Post by alfie Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:59 am

KP_fan will never give up...

Perhaps we should remind him that his mythical fast bowling potential wicket takers couldn't bowl over a glorified club team in Alice Springs a couple of weeks ago.

And perhaps the actual batsmen should wear more of the blame than the management for their inability to either score rapidly or stay in all day...perhaps the Australian bowlers might get a mention too.

But pointless to argue with a Man With an Agenda  Smile 

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Post by alfie Thu 26 Dec 2013, 12:06 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The last two Ashes Series in Australia in the first innings at Melbourne the scores have been 98 and 158 so perhaps this score is not so disastrous as it first seems. I think a score of 300 for England will be a good start by their standards in this series if they can reach that mark.

Indeed , Craig . It is sometimes hard to know what a good first innings score is in Melbourne. My gut feeling is that this is - barring a much better showing from the tail tomorrow - going to be a bit on the low side. But who knows ? Outfield was slow today , may not be that much quicker tomorrow , and cloudy conditions predicted might help England's bowlers.
Second day has been disastrous for England in each of the first three Tests. Maybe time for a change ? Hoping ... Fingers Crossed 

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Post by KP_fan Thu 26 Dec 2013, 12:47 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The last two Ashes Series in Australia in the first innings at Melbourne the scores have been 98 and 158 so perhaps this score is not so disastrous as it first seems. I think a score of 300 for England will be a good start by their standards in this series if they can reach that mark.

instead of creating delusional self pleasing scenarios.......we must look at what happened in the last 3 tests..
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Post by CaledonianCraig Thu 26 Dec 2013, 1:05 pm

Is there any need for posting such bitterness KP_Fan?
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Post by Hoggy_Bear Thu 26 Dec 2013, 1:05 pm

To be fair to KP_fan, I do believe that, under Flower, England have adopted what might be termed a 'safety first' mind-set. A mind-set which has seen the team relying, primarily, on controlling the opposition's batting with their bowling and batting attritionally themselves.
This mind-set and these tactics have, of course, brought England a good deal of success during the Flower regime and, it might be argued, has suited England's strengths. But I do think that, at times, it can be quite restrictive and, as shown by the Aussies in this series in particular, when England are unable to control the opposition, they are in trouble, and find it hard to alter to the more attacking mind set that might be neccessary in order to 'fight fire with fire'.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 26 Dec 2013, 1:08 pm

alfie wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:The last two Ashes Series in Australia in the first innings at Melbourne the scores have been 98 and 158 so perhaps this score is not so disastrous as it first seems. I think a score of 300 for England will be a good start by their standards in this series if they can reach that mark.

Indeed , Craig . It is sometimes hard to know what a good first innings score is in Melbourne.  My gut feeling is that this is - barring a much better showing from the tail tomorrow - going to be a bit on the low side.  But who knows ?  Outfield was slow today , may not be that much quicker tomorrow , and cloudy conditions predicted might help England's bowlers.
Second day has been disastrous for England in each of the first three Tests.  Maybe time for a change ?  Hoping ... Fingers Crossed 

I'm not dismissive of Craig's comment but my gut feeling is similar to Alfie's. Ending day one on 226/6 with all our top 7 reaching double figures suggests not so much a pitch of horrors but a determined bowling effort against batsmen largely unable to make much of useful starts.

I saw a fair bit of the first session and more recently highlights on the Sky breakfast programme. Harris bowled very well, giving very little away and often troubling Carberry. I admire Carberry's resolve and determination but still think his wicket never looks too far away. Posibly Watson's ball that got him did do more than a bit (as Mike suggests) but he was mighty close to not being given lbw when leaving one against Harris just before lunch. Had that been given out - and I suspect it would have stayed with 'umpire's call', the ball probably just clipping the top of the bail - we would have had a real and rather unnecessary headache going in for the turkey sandwiches.

I was also impressed by Lyon in that first session. He got a go as early as the tenth over and seemed on the money from the start, getting some turm and the ball to rise. Surprised his figures weren't better when I caught up with the end of day scores but feel he'll still have a part to play.

I'm not as concerned as some by the slowish scoring but - SPOILER ALERT for bl**ding obvious point - if you are going to score slowly, you clearly can't afford to lose too many wickets. What's probaly most done for us on day one is losing Stokes and Bairstow lateish on. If we were now 220 odd with only 4 down, I would say that was around par.

That said, we're not out of things (and Clarke may even be a tad disappointed not to be in a stronger position). However, we're going to need a good batting or bowling performance tomorrow to get it back. If the former, that means Pietersen getting more runs and at least someone sticking with him for some time.

Interesting enough anyway to try and stay up til lunch on day two ....  Smile

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Post by JDizzle Thu 26 Dec 2013, 1:18 pm

I've only watched the highlights, but from what Sky showed Lyon was getting a large amount of turn and bounce from a day 1 pitch. This will certainly interest Monty, especially if (and it is a big if) England can get something of a fourth innings lead to bowl at.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Thu 26 Dec 2013, 1:24 pm

KP_fan wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:The last two Ashes Series in Australia in the first innings at Melbourne the scores have been 98 and 158 so perhaps this score is not so disastrous as it first seems. I think a score of 300 for England will be a good start by their standards in this series if they can reach that mark.

instead of creating delusional self pleasing scenarios.......we must look at what happened in the last 3 tests..

Hmm I never knew the previous three tests were played at Melbourne? And I prefer to go by the tried and trusted method of waiting to see how things stand after both teams have batted before throwing terms such as delusional at posters (which I refrain from doing anyway).
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Post by msp83 Thu 26 Dec 2013, 7:02 pm

Some people always will have reasons to try and put Kevin Pietersen down, and this obviously hasn't been a series where KP really excelled. But even then, it has to be noted that he has scored more runs than any other England batsman in this series for his side. He wasn't at his best in the home Ashes either, but he was England's 2nd best batsman after Ian Bell there as well.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 26 Dec 2013, 8:56 pm

msp83 wrote:Some people always will have reasons to try and put Kevin Pietersen down, and this obviously hasn't been a series where KP really excelled. But even then, it has to be noted that he has scored more runs than any other England batsman in this series for his side. He wasn't at his best in the home Ashes either, but he was England's 2nd best batsman after Ian Bell there as well.

there are many "English" who despise themselves for having their biggest cricket star( it's their national sport) a South African and that too a perceived-flashy-living-it-big mercenary.
So they hate him....and it all comes out when he is down even a little bit.

A bit like "Italian" Sonia Gandhi syndrome in India
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Post by Pal Joey Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:26 pm

Mike Selig wrote:

I personally wouldn't have bowled first, but then I had only seen the pitch on TV, so am scarcely qualified to comment. Having said that I'm a bit surprised Clarke departed from his modus-operandi, and wonder whether he would have done so had the series been live still. Not saying it's the wrong decision necessarily.

I was a little bit surprised at his call too but full marks for his gutsy decision which showed intent to try and put some pressure on the England batting line-up. In hindsight (at lunch) it seemed to be the wrong thing to do but I was also impressed with the amount of control the Australian bowlers had and they eventually cracked a few partnerships and dismissed batsmen during the last 2 sessions especially. If only KP had been caught....

22 maidens is not too shabby at all (on a fairly decent batting pitch) and the tentative nature of the batting itself, slow scoring and the fact that they were 6 down at C.o.P suggests that Clarke's 'gamble' has provided dividends.

I can't help thinking back to the 2010/11 series where the situation was almost the reverse. England took the initiative back then and everything they touched seemed to turn to gold. I remember thinking that I'd never seen an England side with so much confidence and intent - to take the game to the Aussies and rub their noses in the dirt. As Craig says above - they have since "played it safe" and reverted back to a more negative style of play which (hopefully) doesn't help their cause.  Smile
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Post by kingraf Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:35 pm

I thought Football was Englands national sport? Sure cricket is (was?) their most successful sporting team code (unless you count Team Sky as a national team of sorts), but thats not the same thing. I may be wrong, of course, Being an insomniac my mind doesn't rest like it should
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Post by Pal Joey Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:35 pm

Bres can't handle a short one from Mitch. This time the catch is taken by Bailey.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:36 pm

Ah well played Bresilad, well played
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Post by CaledonianCraig Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:37 pm

Cracking first delivery from Johnson that and Bresnan is caught at silly point trying to fend off a bouncer aimed at his heart. England slip deeper into the mire at 230 for 7.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:39 pm

Don't think KP is gonna hang around now
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Post by Pal Joey Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:40 pm

That's right Olly.  Very Happy
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Post by CaledonianCraig Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:42 pm

The coup De gras about to be completed. Pietersen bowled by Johnson trying to play an outrageous slog sweep. The 300 now out of the question and 250 even looks some way away.
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Post by kingraf Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:44 pm

Given Steyn's current troubles with taking wickets... Johnson is providing an excellent generic for fans of extreme pace, and cartwheeling stumps
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:44 pm

Bloody Kevin Pietersen, going out there, top scoring, trying to take the game to Australia while the tail crumbles.
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Post by Hoggy_Bear Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:44 pm

Tons for Broad and Anderson on the way.
And Birmingham City to win the Champion's League within 5 years.
You heard it here first thumbsup 

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Post by CaledonianCraig Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:47 pm

I think there is more chance of Birmingham City winning the Champions League Hoggy.


Last edited by CaledonianCraig on Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Duty281 Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:47 pm

Always a joy to watch Johnson when he's in this sort of a mood.

All fun and games - Monty's due to bat soon as well!

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Post by Born Slippy Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:48 pm

Shame for KP but surely could have given himself a few balls to get himself in again? Another moment that sums up the confused thinking of the England batting unit.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:49 pm

Monty and Jimmy reunited Duty?! THE SPIRIT OF CARDIFF LIVES  Fingers Crossed 
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Post by kingraf Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:50 pm

Saw a tweet saying that was KP's worst dismissal since his last one, and his worst until his next one... Think it summarizes all KP related frustrations
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:50 pm

Born Slippy wrote:Shame for KP but surely could have given himself a few balls to get himself in again? Another moment that sums up the confused thinking of the England batting unit.

Don't think with the tail against Johnson there would've been a few balls to get in
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Post by Duty281 Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:52 pm

Olly wrote:Monty and Jimmy reunited Duty?! THE SPIRIT OF CARDIFF LIVES  Fingers Crossed 

Australia's most recent first innings score at the MCG in a Test match v England was 98 all out. #englandhavealreadygotenough

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:56 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Olly wrote:Monty and Jimmy reunited Duty?! THE SPIRIT OF CARDIFF LIVES  Fingers Crossed 

Australia's most recent first innings score at the MCG in a Test match v England was 98 all out. #englandhavealreadygotenough

That's a very good #atthisstage comparison as we push past the 240 mark to increase our lead
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Post by Born Slippy Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:56 pm

So farm the strike? Broad averages what 25 odd in tests - sure he has struggled this series but he isnt in the complete rabbit category. Im not really having a go at KP (Agnew's ludicrous article about him being too defensive really irritated me earlier) but I don't think he would have played that particular shot at that time were this not the tour from hell.

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Post by NickisBHAFC Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:57 pm

Not sure what was worse. That KP Dismissal or the Cook Dismissal

Awful shots from both players, in shots they really didn't need to play. Embarrassing

Bring on the whitewash.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:58 pm

Born Slippy wrote:So farm the strike? Broad averages what 25 odd in tests - sure he has struggled this series but he isnt in the complete rabbit category. Im not really having a go at KP (Agnew's ludicrous article about him being too defensive really irritated me earlier) but I don't think he would have played that particular shot at that time were this not the tour from hell.

But this is the tour from hell.

So why not
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Post by Pal Joey Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:59 pm

Broad walks... well I never thought I'd see the day.  Wink
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Post by Duty281 Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:59 pm

Here comes the Monty!

Monty Panesar de de de...

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Post by CaledonianCraig Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:59 pm

Well Duty that is why I said yesterday we have to wait and see how Australia fair in their first innings before assessing how things stand.

It looks ominous though as England's bowling on the tour so far doesn't look capable of bowling Australia out too cheaply. Broad out low and Johnson has a five for. England 242 for 9.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 26 Dec 2013, 11:59 pm

HERE COMES MONTY!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 27 Dec 2013, 12:01 am

Monty brilliantly placing that defensive shot just out of reach of short leg
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Post by kingraf Fri 27 Dec 2013, 12:02 am

Was hoping for a similar days play to yesterday, to help me sleep, but Johnson seems to be on it. So I'm off to listen time fun's sophomore album, and if I'm still awake, as a last ditch effort, some Sarah Mcachlan. England are pretty much up a creek sans a paddle, and the joie de vivre of this match has been siphoned out pretty quickly, in devastating fashion. Pretty much waiting for the Coup d'etat now.
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Post by Duty281 Fri 27 Dec 2013, 12:03 am

Will Monty regret not keeping the strike, I wonder?

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Post by Pal Joey Fri 27 Dec 2013, 12:04 am

I fell asleep watching proceedings in Durban last night, raf. Enjoy your rest.
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