Australia are a bit of Home Track Bullies

Lost to India in India
Lost to Eng in Eng
Could not beat SA in SA.....
Could not beat NZ in NZ

OK SA are No.1 but you've gotta beat them sometime

The problem with Aus that hurt them overseas is :

1) Their batting

--Watson't cheap runs notwithstanding....he ain't a number 3.
--and Bailey ain't a No.6 or a number anything in test cricket.
--actually Watson could move to No. 6 if he is fit to bowl
--and they need to find a No.3 unless Clarke is wiling to bat at No.3..and Clarke is one of the biggest HTBs...averaging barely 42 overseas against a home conditions average of ....hold your breath 62   
---and Haddin's run on adrenalin against his favorite foe....ain't gonna continue for ever......law of averages will catch up with him

2) Spin Bowling and fitness of seamers

--Lyon did get 19 wickets at less than 30......but those numbers are skewed...he is short of a potent international quality. On pitches that are meant to be helping spinners...he will not win them matches

--fitness of seamers....especially Harris...he is the best skiddy fast bowler I have seen since Marshal and to me he was the top bowlers on both sides in the last two Ashes series.
Is he gonna be fit to play against SA
there is a such a huge drop in their overall quality if Harris drops.....for Pattinson, Cummins Starc are all generally not fit.
Rest are all FM

They are travelling to SA........at best the bowling are comparable.
Aus's batting outside home conditions is terribly inept so far...and will struggle to eek out a draw ...winning is out of question.

I agree with all of your points KPF.

I can't see the Aussie lower order/tail bailing out the top order in SA, like it has in the 1st innings in the Ashes.

I think Lyon in Australia's attack is good enough, I think he's pretty underrated.

Harris is the key overseas for me. If he can stay fit, that Aussie seam attack is pretty potent. Not sure Mitch will be as effective, Siddle will do what Siddle does, same with Watson. If Harris can stay healthy, that's huge because he's a beast.

I can't see them beating SA myself, but it's not out of the realms of possibilty

To be fair though we said all of these things about them before and during the Ashes series, none of it mattered.

SA too could cite similar worries, even if their form has been good for some time. Kallis departing leaves a few questions in the order where they already had one mediocre opener, duminy who makes steve smith look like a genuine batsman bowler, and a spinner who was dropped for being rubbish replacing a guy whos been even worse. Then theres the wicket keeper question. And how do they avoid overloading the front 3 bowlers with no Kallis.



Shoud be a fascinating series on pitches that suit both teams, certainly not the walkover I wouldve predicted had this series been instead of the Ashes.

--SA will make the kind of pitch we saw in Durban against India.....a bit batting oriented ....and the overall superiority
of SA batting will overcome the on paper the at best equal bowling.

--2 years later in Eng ........Aus ain't gonna walk over so easily.
Eng's seriously biggest loss is Swann...on slightly assiting pitches he is a match winner.

--Lyon is a averaging 37ish and 2wkt per test type bowler and not averaging 29 and 4wkts / test as he finished in this series.

Lol I may be wrong, but isn't Australia the last team not named South Africa to win an away series?

tbh - I'm always astounded (quite literally) when people describe the type of pitches we will produce... We dont have drop-in pitches, they won't change overnight lads. Centurion is bouncy and fast with carry, Newlands is lively with less pace, but more grass and lateral movement. Port Elizabeth is slow, receptive to turn. There is nothing thats going to change, and I wouldn't back Australia in a bowlers shootout against us - not because they lack the bowlers, but because they lack the batters.

kingraf wrote:tbh - I'm always astounded (quite literally) when people describe the type of pitches we will produce... We dont have drop-in pitches, they won't change overnight lads. Centurion is bouncy and fast with carry, Newlands is lively with less pace, but more grass and lateral movement. Port Elizabeth is slow, receptive to turn. There is nothing thats going to change, and I wouldn't back Australia in a bowlers shootout against us  - not because they lack the bowlers, but because they lack the batters.

the amount of grass on and water in can always be changed to create variations suting once convenience

kingraf wrote:Lol I may be wrong, but isn't Australia the last team not named South Africa to win an away series?

The thread is probably not well named!

Points in OP are very good and valid tho I think

good luck leaving any live grass at PE. Centurion without the grass is still blooming fast, with less carry, and our Groundamen bow to nobody when it comes to the quality and nature of their pitch... Chris Scott leaving grass at the Wanderers in 2001/02 when Brett Lee was at full tilt, whoever is the groundsman at Kingsmead hasn't put in any grass there for five years now... Why would they change?

Hi KR.

It will be interesting to see how Johnson's fast bowling goes down there, will he be as impressive as the last 5 tests, or will it be a case of finding out that they were not really tested by England and it will be a wake up call for them. I see the SA side as being very disciplined with good tactical nous and good cohesive qualities of team work when fielding and a strong-willed batting format entrenched in a solid format of attacking and defensive form.

I hazard a guess that when the Aussies get faced with stiff opposition, this cake walk will turn out to be more of the walk of a condemned man to the gallows and they'll stutter and stall.

The Ashes are one thing, a separate entity to world cricket, and Australia have yet to impress me with anything across the globe as of yet with this team.

kingraf wrote:good luck leaving any live grass at PE. Centurion without the grass is still blooming fast, with less carry, and our Groundamen bow to nobody when it  comes to the quality and nature of their pitch... Chris Scott leaving grass at the Wanderers in 2001/02 when Brett Lee was at full tilt, whoever is the groundsman at Kingsmead hasn't put in any grass there for five years now...  Why would they change?

I sense a tinge of pride in the underlined.........to me it would be naive and worrying if the home curator didn't make the pitch like the home team wants

Of course they are "a bit of home track bullies" on the best sporting wickets in the world when they get the team right. It's no wonder we produce terrifying pace bowlers here and I suppose the flip side is that our batsmen (local ones) have to develop their game to deal with this. That's not a comfortable way to learn the art of batting but when it comes off - the rewards have been well earned.

Of all the other test nations in the world, SA is the closest to Australia in terms of playing conditions and our players have similar mindsets - except for one little aspect (which I won't mention on here) and which sets us apart. The Aussies actually like playing there believe it or not.

I tend to agree with about 80% of the OP though.

The other important factor is this:

I believe SA took a short while to get up to speed against India in the latest series and when they did they were delightful to watch in full flight (as a neutral). Australia (faced with a similar scenario with our current side) would have gone for the throat in Jo'burg though... having come that close to winning an epic match.

I do believe, however, that SA will turn it up a notch against the new No.3 side (with respect to India - Australia have a winning 26-12 record away in SA; 48-20 overall) and we are always the scalp all cricketing nations get the most satisfaction beating.

It may seem as though the 5-0 Ashes win against an ailing England side is some sort of false achievement but I'd be careful going down that line of argument. The fact is that the nature of the dismantling of certain individual players (targets achieved to plan) was an awesome achievement and says a lot about the current mental state and confidence of our players.

It will be a monumental series for both sides. I reckon it will be one Test a-piece with perhaps a washout in PE.  

I agree with most of KPF's points apart from the bit about Lyon. I think he's very decent actually. Much better than the overhyped Ashwin.

Aren't all teams home track bullies?

This is going to be a very interesting series, the Ozzies will be confident after "bullying" the English, they come to SA with an in form Johnson and Haddin.

SA goes into the test series without Kallis and no idea who their best spinner is or even where they are going to get a test spinner.

Interesting time ahead.

Biltong wrote:Aren't all teams home track bullies?

This is going to be a very interesting series, the Ozzies will be confident after "bullying" the English, they come to SA with an in form Johnson and Haddin.

SA goes into the test series without Kallis and no idea who their best spinner is or even where they are going to get a test spinner.

Interesting time ahead.

a couple of points here :
(1) Re: Kallis

Kallis's absence in real terms is being overestimated.

for last two years before retirement he has been averaging 44 with the bat and 1 wicket per test with the ball........so he was an average/ good player but not a super player.

His presence was more of a talismanic player and provided a huge mental assurance....of an additional seamer being present in the playing 11.

filtered 2011-2013 19 1284 224 44.27 5 21 3/35 36.71 0 31 0 7.56

(2)Re. home Track Bullies

all teams are meant to be strong at home.......HTB term here refers to a significant drop in overseas performances compared to home performances.
Aus recent performances have such a huge difference between Home results ( 5-0 vs Eng and 4-0 vs India for example and lost 4-0 in India and 3-0 in Eng)
Clarke is a case in point.....a diffrence in batting average of 20 between home and overseas conditions.

Hopefully it can be turned around though, KP_f.

Anyway, the same rule applies to all teams if you look at it that way. Australia still has the best away record (by far) historically. Every 10-15 years or so they go through a lean patch. Other teams have never won a series overseas don't forget.

We all know that Australia stuffed things up badly from about 2008 onwards. We went through about 47 players and had that rotation disease which prevented any sort of continuity... let alone success.

Also, around about the same time, the level of doctoring of pitches (we are all guilty) became a precise art form. There's just been an interview on here (Agnew and some Aussies) where they have all criticised the way pitches have been prepared for home series. Even Lehman was making a noise about the "3 day conditions" which have favoured the bowlers here. He actually said he'd rather see a proper 4-5 day contest. Makes for better viewing, edge of your seat stuff... and attracts young kiddies to the game, etc.

Aggers said that England boxed themselves into a corner too - only able to perform comfortably and confidently with home pitches tuned to their player set. It's like having tunnel vision and emerging out the other end blinded by a different reality when they travel abroad. (cue PSW with the England victory in India... but that was a long time coming)

This has then led to a situation where we see these massive turnarounds in successive Test matches between the same two nations at home and away. It's not a good nor fair situation really and leads to a situation of false confidence and a specifically tailored approach to the game at home (successful) to utter clueless and disastrous performances away (failure).

Linebreaker wrote:Hopefully it can be turned around though, KP_f.

Anyway, the same rule applies to all teams if you look at it that way. Australia still has the best away record (by far) historically. Every 10-15 years or so they go through a lean patch. Other teams have never won a series overseas don't forget.

I fully appreciate that.....and that's why I titled the thread Bit of a Home Track Bully
Aus have a historically one of the best overseas records....but their current form has made them a Bit of a HTB.

Their batting needs to stand up more specifically Nos 3 and 6......to be stronger overseas.

Oh I know... I saw that. Very cleverly worded, mate!  

Totally agree on batting 3-6 has to try and lift. Could be very ugly for them otherwise.

Since no team won an away Test in 2013 (not counting Zimbabwe and Bangladesh tours ) we can say that everyone is a home track bully   

With tours being ever shortened and warm up games rendered fairly useless by home organizers we may see more of this rather than less.

It has been very noticeable with Australia over the last year ; but on the other hand they had success in Sri Lanka and West Indies (and even one Test in SA ! ) not that long ago.

In any case conditions in SA are probably closer to Australian than anywhere else ( not the same , but more so than others) so the home advantage won't be as significant as many series. I would still expect SA to win , home or away ; but I don't think it is a given.

alfie wrote:Since no team won an away Test in 2013

Didn't Eng win in Ind and NZ

I think we'd give them a run for their rand at home here in Oz, alfie. (If we played them in the last 6 weeks.)

Over there, yes - SA should expect to win.

KP_fan wrote:

alfie wrote:Since no team won an away Test in 2013

Didn't Eng win in Ind and NZ

England-India was in 2012. WI won in Bangladesh just before that... also in late 2012.
Eng-NZ drew 0-0 in NZ in 2013.

Another point for Australia is whether they can get mentally ready. Will they be able to get up for this series, after putting so much into the last series? Will they be mentally as into it?

And then there's the physical aspect to it with players like Clarke, Watson and Harris who have all got long standing issues with injuries

Lehman brought unity of purpose, team spirit and a lot of cricketing commonsense to his approach.

However to his criticism he allowed sentiments to go a bit over board at the end......over rationale and logic.
Such as "same XI should be there until the end"..was pure sentimental.
They could afford it because the gulf between two sides was so huge....that a couple of under-performing positions didn't hurt Aus.

When against a tougher opponent and in foreign conditions...every one of the XI would have to contribute and hence picked on merit......and hence no room for sentimental selections.

Great Opportunity missed by Aus to try two new guys in less challenging conditions in the last two tests....but now they will have to carry the known under-performers into SA tests...OR bring in new untested guys in much more difficult conditions.

Linebreaker wrote:I think we'd give them a run for their rand at home here in Oz, alfie. (If we played them in the last 6 weeks.)

Over there, yes - SA should expect to win.

Playing like you have the last six weeks you'd give anyone a run for their money , lb !

But in general , I would favour SA . While still giving Australia a decent chance of an upset...and as I said , I don't think there is that much home ground advantage between these to teams.
In fact , recent series have actually gone slightly better for SA in Australia than at home...

I was thinking exactly the same thing today... actually over the last couple of weeks. The temptation was there to rest a couple of players and bring in some fresh ones. However, that might have detracted from the team unity they had fostered together. It's a fine line...

As you both say, if someone gets injured or if they lose the first one - then the pressure would be huge, on say Faulkner, if he was thrown into the team without any FC practice. In fact, our SS comp doesn't resume until late Feb. It's all the fiery T20 stuff now... hardly the right mindset to be in and difficult to switch from into Test mode... at least for some you'd expect.

Alfie, are you trying to dampen my day in the sun?   "Slightly"? Fair enough.
Of course I want the momentum to continue but I do understand it only takes another few balls and we're back to mid-2013 again.

Aus b.t.w have risen to No.3 spot in ICC rankings...behind SA and Ind.

Eng have dropped to 4 quite close to No.5 Pak now

Every team is a home track bully but anyway now to the Australia V South Africa.

It is a tough one to call as Australia will head into that series full of confidence with a bowling attack on top form. My worry is the top order batting - if it doesn't buck its ideas up the tail may not be able to rescue it in South Africa against a better bowling attack. Also we will get a better idea just how good this Australian attack is if it can obliterate the South African top order as easily as it did England's. I doubt that it will as South Africa will be better prepared for Mitchell Johnson and I think will be much more positive in their approach to him and the rest of the bowlers. Australia themselves can take hope from the fact that there will be no Kallis to face and also that the batting line-up they will face weren't rock solid V India recently. It should be very interesting with lots of sub-plots.

Some stories of the walking wounded Aussies.......going throuhg the pain barrier but marching on..especially Harris...sound good now.
Probably enough break to be fit for SA.

Australian physiotherapist Alex Kountouris works on Shane Watson's back before the Boxing Day Test. Photo: Getty Images
That Australia kept the same 11 players on the park for all five Ashes Tests is one of cricket's modern miracles.
All three fast bowlers had niggles that could have put them out of a Test. Ryan Harris, who until last winter had never played more than three in a row, had an assortment of ailments and bowled his last spell in Melbourne with the back missing from a shoe to relieve the toe-curling pain from the gaping wound on his heel.
Peter Siddle had a sore hip and back towards the end of the series, but soldiered through all 10 home and away contests, while Michael Clarke quietly pushed through some ''bumpy periods'' with his back.
Shane Watson got through despite hamstring and groin niggles, easing the load on the main bowlers with 23 overs in stinking heat in Perth.
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''It's amazing to go unchanged through all five Tests. All three [quicks] have had things going on in this series, but they found a way,'' said team physiotherapist Alex Kountouris.
Australia has not known such stability since 1989, when Allan Border's team changed just once in six Tests, and it was again a key to Ashes success. The last team to go through a five-Test series with the same XI was the West Indies in 1991.
Kountouris knows all too well how easily things can go wrong; how one injury can lead to disaster.
Last summer, James Pattinson's breakdown in Adelaide led to the workload of the other quicks cranking into the ''extreme'' category, which led to Siddle and Ben Hilfenhaus missing the Perth Test, in which the replacement attack was carved up by South Africa.
This summer, Kountouris was quietly confident he and his medical team could get the quicks through the series from the moment England folded in the face of Mitchell Johnson's onslaught at the Gabba, where no Australian had to bowl more than 37 overs.
''It's not all about us abandoning a rotation policy, which we didn't have,'' Kountouris said. ''Last year in six Tests, on six occasions, bowlers bowled more than 50 overs in a match.
''That's a known risk, and that didn't happen once this summer. The hard one was always going to be the short turnaround between Adelaide and Perth, and it was. With Harris everyone knows his knee was sore and swollen, but we tested him the same way we did with Siddle last year and he was OK to play.
''If he had bowled 60 overs like Sidds did [last summer], there's no way he would have played. Myself and the doc [Peter Brukner] and the team worked pretty hard between games to get them up, but the players themselves wanted to play. They were just so determined.
''The last two Tests, we'd won the series, it would have been easy for one of them to miss because we've got an important Test series coming up against South Africa, but they wanted to play.''
Kountouris describes Harris' effort to push through hip, calf and knee pain, and finish his ninth Ashes Test in a row with a man-of-the-match performance, as ''unbelievable''. But he was in excruciating pain because of a pesky blister at the MCG.
''It sounds a bit wussy, I know women get blisters from wearing high heels and they get on with it, but this was more of an ulcer. It was a great big hole on the back of his heel and his shoe just kept on digging in.''
Harris was crying out for a pain-killing injection but Brukner refused because it could have numbed his whole foot.
''Kountouris grabbed scissors and a scalpel and chopped a hole in the back of his boot,'' he said.
Pat Howard's team performance unit planned out the summer using the lessons from last season, figuring Pattinson had played one too many Sheffield Shield games before the Test series. This time, Siddle and Harris were held back at the start of the Ryobi Cup, had limited workloads in the first Shield game and sat out the one before the Gabba Test.
The morning after the whitewash, all Australia had to worry about was 11 sore heads.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/australian-players-played-through-pain-to-win-ashes-20140106-30dmj.html#ixzz2pcpQ8Y69

Interesting that they do say had england managed to bat a decent amount of time they wouldve had to withdraw some of the star bowlers.
That was the England gameplan, pity about the execution!
Also interesting to compare that to the comments that England made a mistake by undercooking the side and not playing more friendlies on the tour. One of the few positives fr England was seeing guys like Broad manage to bowl a decent number of overs without falling apart

Steyn and ABDV are having surgeries.....so even if they reciver they may not have enought time to play themselves to full match fitness.

On the otehr hand Harris has the highest fitness risks for Aus

The Aussies enjoy their IPL......not put on the county/ country or IPL crossroads...Johnson a case in point.

Harris used IPL as the first competitive vehicle to make his return.
Watson was the original star of first iPL...actually IPL brought him into reckoning
 
After Mumbai Indians won the Champions League in October, the team's head coach John Wright went out of his way to stress what a great contribution Australian pacer Mitchell Johnson made to his team and said it was hard to leave him out in the final against Rajasthan Royals on the slow Delhi track. Wright was over the moon after Johnson emerged as the player of the Ashes. Here's what he told MiD DAY on Tuesday:

The whole franchise — Mumbai Indians — was delighted by Mitchell Johnson’s Ashes show. He enjoyed his cricket with us. He bowled well in the IPL but the moment he came back in the Champions League, he was even quicker… very quick. It’s always great to see your players being successful. He has lot of fans in Mumbai.

He was a joy to work with. He’s a humble, simple and hard working person. He spends a lot of time in the gym and is very well conditioned. Mitch did a lot of work before the Ashes series and we saw a lot of that work in the CLT20.

He’s got a great work ethic. We just said to him, ‘enjoy yourself, bowl as fast and straight as you can. And he kept it simple’. Obviously, he did the same in the Ashes — short spells — straight and fast and what a series he had!

It would also be great to see some of your guys playing in the BB.

There are lots of Poms, a couple of Saffers, the odd Kiwi and even some players from Pakistan and Bangladesh. Not many Windies players this year due to other commitments but they seem to thrive in our conditions.

I know it clashes with your Test series in SA and NZ... but I feel there should be more representation from India here (at least a few T20 specialists) to help them get into match form for the NZ match and the IPL as well.

Steyn isn't having surgery, he has a fractured rib, and is recovering, AB is having surgery on his hand, but he will be fine for the test series.

Linebreaker wrote:It would also be great to see some of your guys playing in the BB.

There are lots of Poms, a couple of Saffers, the odd Kiwi and even some players from Pakistan and Bangladesh. Not many Windies players this year due to other commitments but they seem to thrive in our conditions.

I know it clashes with your Test series in SA and NZ... but I feel there should be more representation from India here (at least a few T20 specialists) to help them get into match form for the NZ match and the IPL as well.

Well if you ask Flower nicely he might let you have KP

I'm not sure his ego would fit, mate. Besides, Flower has enough problems as it is... best let him sort out his own future first.

Aus taking 6 fast bowlers for a short tour to SA.....one extra man and one WK short

Ashes trio Mitchell Johnson, Ryan Harris and Peter Siddle are to be joined by at least two and possibly three other fast bowlers, with James Faulkner and James Pattinson all but certain to be included and Nathan Coulter-Nile the lead candidate for the additional spot if Australia opts for 15 tourists rather than 14

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/australias-pacemen-are-to-be-called-upon-in-south-africa-20140110-30mo3.html#ixzz2q1vrUGHt

Is "home track bully" a pejorative way of saying "very difficult to beat at home"?

More like "Lions at home, kittens away''

But they have won more away games than any other team unlike the famous chokers who have only won in Australia 8 times... unlike "the kittens" who have won 26 times in SA. History is obviously not your strongpoint.

The "chokers" was a poor cricket team prior to the isolation years and had a win/loss record of .49 overall They weren't even contenders then.

Since their readmission they have a win/loss record of 2.02, they are four times the team they were before.

SA cricket team regularly tops the list of sport's great chokers.

"... cricket writers will define the word 'choke' as a description of South Africa in any World Cup, but their spectacular exit from the World Cup in England was an especially good episode in their series of underachievement. Requiring nine off the last over against Australia at Edgbaston, Lance Klusener belted two fours off the first two balls to lift all the pressure off, or so you'd think, as Allan Donald then was left stranded going for an unnecessary single and was run out, the game was tied and the Aussies went through."

From sky sports "top ten chokes"

GloriousEmpire wrote:SA cricket team regularly tops the list of sport's great chokers.

to me it's surprising given Eng's long history in 50 overs games...they have never won a world cup or champions Trophy...their loss to India this year was a clasic choke.

no other team I believe has lost as many 50 over finals as Eng has

SA does have the label thouhg sticking to them more firmly

You're right of course - You'll notice that it is mostly British publications pointing that particular finger, once again...

Biltong wrote:The "chokers" was a poor cricket team prior to the isolation years and had a win/loss record of .49 overall They weren't even contenders then.

Since their readmission they have a win/loss record of 2.02, they are four times the team they were before.

I know mate... just replying to raf's silly remark. I shouldn't have gone down that path.

(Oz are only 1.86 times the team since 1992 - 1.43 to 2.66 win/loss rates)

LB - mate why'd you take offense to my comment? I was answering a question asked by GE the post above me. which was regarding the definition of home track bullies, not whether or not Australia are home track bullies

I'd already defended Australia's away credentials earlier in the thread - In fact more than any one else here I've sung Australia's praises during the Ashes, and the potential of the current line up, even when they lost 3-0 in England. Going down the choking argument at a statement I assume you intentionally misonterpreted (I mean GE's question is directly above mine, how do you miss it) is I assume your attempt at getting some pre-tour sledging going on...

No worries, raf. I must have confused you with Gerry or something...  and thought your remark was a general statement. I can see you were now replying to GE's post which I somehow overlooked.

I blame the fur-balls...  

Sorry was trying to diffuse and must've been misinterpreted.