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Cook - Current Aussie attack better than 05/06/07

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Post by invisiblecoolers Mon 06 Jan 2014, 12:35 am

Has Cook gone Crazy or is he doing a damage control, M Vaughan posted this question on twitter, lemme post this to 606v2 fans, what made Cook feel this and is it the real scanario?

The current crop better than McGrath,B Lee, Gillespie, S Clarke, Warne, S Macgill,  and the other countless who didn't get enough chances like A Bickel etc,.. ?  picard

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Post by Guest Mon 06 Jan 2014, 3:10 am

In terms of bowling speed I believe Mitchell Johnson is faster than Glenn McGrath but slower than Brett Lee.

Can you give us the actual quote & context of supposed statement.

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Post by Stella Mon 06 Jan 2014, 4:53 am

He said that this was the best attack he had faced. In truth, the three seamers have bowled as well as any unit I've see, however this is only one series. Mcgrath and Warne are obviously all time greats, but a firing Johnson, and Harris are asgood as Lee and Gillespie. Johnson of course may not be as good in England.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Jan 2014, 7:52 am

Take it in the context of Clarkes comments about Johnson.

Over their careers warne and McGrath are true legends. But I think it not without merit to say the way the Aussies have bowled out if their skins and consistently well as a unit trough this series has been much toughe than the bowling England faced in the previous ashes series.
... Especially as Australia often didnt have all their best available during those series.

Harris is an underrated bowler, injuries have stopped him being judged as a great. Johnson will never go down as a great because on his inconsistency.
But backed up by siddle and the best of Lyon they've been at their peak in this series.


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Post by kingraf Mon 06 Jan 2014, 9:31 am

I think the OP is intentionally abstract. It's cool to say "are Siddle, Johnson, Harris really better than Lee, McGrath, Gillespie, Kasprowicz, Stuart Clark etc?" But that's unfair, because those guys never performed in concert as some eight-man pace battery. A more fair question is: Is the current attack better than any previous Ashes bowling attack? In my opinion - yes.
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Post by KP_fan Mon 06 Jan 2014, 9:46 am

invisiblecoolers wrote:Has Cook gone Crazy or is he doing a damage control, M Vaughan posted this question on twitter, lemme post this to 606v2 fans, what made Cook feel this and is it the real scanario?

The current crop better than McGrath,B Lee, Gillespie, S Clarke, Warne, S Macgill,  and the other countless who didn't get enough chances like A Bickel etc,.. ?  picard

whether True or otherwise is besides the point.....Cook  sounds like " My white-wash was better than yours"...and hence sounding cheap and undignified.

he would do well to keep his mouth shut and if asked for ...simply state that his side for thoroughly outplayed.

His comment " I have the vote of confidence " was also uncalled for......doesn't do him any good but a lot of harm.

but I have been saying right from the start of the tour Cook has opened his mouth many times at the wrong-time and spoken wrong words.
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Post by Stella Mon 06 Jan 2014, 9:59 am

KP_fan wrote:
invisiblecoolers wrote:Has Cook gone Crazy or is he doing a damage control, M Vaughan posted this question on twitter, lemme post this to 606v2 fans, what made Cook feel this and is it the real scanario?

The current crop better than McGrath,B Lee, Gillespie, S Clarke, Warne, S Macgill,  and the other countless who didn't get enough chances like A Bickel etc,.. ?  picard

whether True or otherwise is besides the point.....Cook  sounds like " My white-wash was better than yours"...and hence sounding cheap and undignified.

he would do well to keep his mouth shut and if asked for ...simply state that his side for thoroughly outplayed.

His comment " I have the vote of confidence " was also uncalled for......doesn't do him any good but a lot of harm.

but I have been saying right from the start of the tour Cook has opened his mouth many times at the wrong-time and spoken wrong words.

He was paying them a complement. Is that so wrong?
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Jan 2014, 9:59 am

kingraf wrote: A more fair question is: Is did the current attackperform better than any previous Australian Ashes bowling attack over the course of a series? In my opinion - yes.

Id go with that. Its still not up there with the star quality and career records of the golden era greats, but how often did those bowlers play as a full strength unit at the top of their game for an entire ashes series in the last decade (which is whats being talked about here)?
Previous ashes series weve seen the best Aussie bowlers injure themselves playing football, not get picked, no ball every second delivery, or bowl like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoGpmqrJMk.

I dont think its vastly unreasonable to say that Australia bowled better as a complete unit through this series than they have done in any series in the last decade. That doesnt mean they are the all time greatest Austlrian attack any more than England should have been claiming their batting line upo was the best it had ever been after trashing Aus last time out.


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Post by KP_fan Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:00 am

Stella wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
invisiblecoolers wrote:Has Cook gone Crazy or is he doing a damage control, M Vaughan posted this question on twitter, lemme post this to 606v2 fans, what made Cook feel this and is it the real scanario?

The current crop better than McGrath,B Lee, Gillespie, S Clarke, Warne, S Macgill,  and the other countless who didn't get enough chances like A Bickel etc,.. ?  picard

whether True or otherwise is besides the point.....Cook  sounds like " My white-wash was better than yours"...and hence sounding cheap and undignified.

he would do well to keep his mouth shut and if asked for ...simply state that his side for thoroughly outplayed.

His comment " I have the vote of confidence " was also uncalled for......doesn't do him any good but a lot of harm.

but I have been saying right from the start of the tour Cook has opened his mouth many times at the wrong-time and spoken wrong words.

He was paying them a complement. Is that so wrong?

whether True or otherwise is besides the point.....Cook sounds like " My white-wash was better than yours"...and hence sounding cheap and undignified.
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Post by Stella Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:07 am

KP_fan wrote:
Stella wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
invisiblecoolers wrote:Has Cook gone Crazy or is he doing a damage control, M Vaughan posted this question on twitter, lemme post this to 606v2 fans, what made Cook feel this and is it the real scanario?

The current crop better than McGrath,B Lee, Gillespie, S Clarke, Warne, S Macgill,  and the other countless who didn't get enough chances like A Bickel etc,.. ?  picard

whether True or otherwise is besides the point.....Cook  sounds like " My white-wash was better than yours"...and hence sounding cheap and undignified.

he would do well to keep his mouth shut and if asked for ...simply state that his side for thoroughly outplayed.

His comment " I have the vote of confidence " was also uncalled for......doesn't do him any good but a lot of harm.

but I have been saying right from the start of the tour Cook has opened his mouth many times at the wrong-time and spoken wrong words.

He was paying them a complement. Is that so wrong?

whether True or otherwise is besides the point.....Cook  sounds like " My white-wash was better than yours"...and hence sounding cheap and undignified.

What are you going on about? Cook was speaking about the tour, and how disappointed he was, and also mentioned as to how good the Aussie attack was. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. To me, he he doesn't speak from the heart enough.
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Post by Stella Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:08 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
kingraf wrote: A more fair question is: Is did the current attackperform better than any previous Australian Ashes bowling attack over the course of a series? In my opinion - yes.

Id go with that. Its still not up there with the star quality and career records of the golden era greats, but how often did those bowlers play as a full strength unit at the top of their game for an entire ashes series in the last decade (which is whats being talked about here)?
Previous ashes series weve seen the best Aussie bowlers injure themselves playing football, not get picked, no ball every second delivery, or bowl like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoGpmqrJMk.

I dont think its vastly unreasonable to say that Australia bowled better as a complete unit through this series than they have done in any series in the last decade. That doesnt mean they are the all time greatest Austlrian attack any more than England should have been claiming their batting line upo was the best it had ever been after trashing Aus last time out.


The 2001 attack was very good but arguably didn't perform as good as this bunch, for the 5 test matches.
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Post by Mike Selig Mon 06 Jan 2014, 11:00 am

The assertion is not unreasonable (which isn't to say that Harris, Siddle and co are better bowlers than McGrath etc.). I think the point is nobody from this 5 man attack has had a poor test.

Looking at recent Aussie attacks:

- declaring this attack better than the one(s) used in the previous 3 ashes series is self-evident: last time around we had Agar playing 2 tests, constant (enforced) chop and changing, an out-of sorts Pattinson at times, etc.; in 2010/11 we had Johnson spraying them apart from Perth, Bollinger and Hilfenhaus about as threatening as your gran trying to mug you with her false teeth, a plethora of fairly hopeless spinners, etc.; in 2009 Johnson was at his most infuriatingly inconsistent, and Stuart Clark bowling friendly medium pacers (which worked at Headingley but not at the Oval) - apart from that the attack was decent (Hauritz as a spinner compares reasonably to Lyon in this series) but there is probably no bowler you would take over any of the bowlers in this series.

I suppose 06/07 was a very strong attack: Clark at his peak, Warne, McGrath and Lee. McGrath was arguably not quite at his peak anymore (although he did produce some great performances), whilst Warne had a couple of moments, but was poor at Sydney say. Lee I thought was one of the unsung heroes of that series actually: came up with crucial wickets. However that attack conceded 550 at Adelaide, and strong second innings performances at Brisbane and Perth. Collingwood scored heavily, and he is hardly a great player (although arguably England are still to replace him in the middle-order). To state this current attack has bowled consistently better is debateable for sure, but not unreasonable.

2005, well McGrath could only play half the tests (and was clearly unfit at Old Trafford). Warne was masterful, Lee was excellent, but whoever bowled as 3rd seamer (Gillespie, Kasperwicz, Tait) were rubbish. No contest.

2002/03: again injuries played a part - Warne played only 3 tests, and McGrath 4. Indeed the Aus attack without Warne and McGrath at Sydney looked only decent (a sign of things to come...). Gillespie was excellent, and Lee and Bichel had their moments, but again, no contest.

2001: personally I think that Australian team was the greatest I've ever seen, and challenging for the best of all time. Langer (once he replaced Slater), Hayden, Ponting, Waugh, Waugh, Martyn, Gilchrist, Warne, Lee, Gillespie (at his absolute best), McGrath. Tough to beat that if you ask me. For the first 3 tests their attack was the best I've seen also: Warne at his best, McGrath at his best, Gillespie bowling superbly, and Lee as a bit of a wildcard but bowling some blistering pace. They fell off a bit towards the end of the series, but I would rank that attack slightly above this one, mainly because if you got through the seamers (as England did at Edgbaston) then you faced Warne... Cook wasn't playing though...

I could go back further (but not before the 90s), but would struggle to find an attack which has matched the current one I have to say..

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Post by alfie Mon 06 Jan 2014, 11:11 am

Agree with a lot of the comments above. It isn't really an issue of where these individual bowlers rate in overall lists of Australian Test players. We are really talking about the group of bowlers as a team , over this one series : and Cook is of course only going back to his first series , ie 2006.
2006/7 was a great bunch. But they were certainly taken apart in the first innings in Adelaide (never mind they came back with a bang in the second !) The current group really hardly weakened at any point in the series ( OK , maybe a little in Perth second innings : but even in 2006 that same innings proved a bit trickier to demolish...)

Fair enough call , I reckon.

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Post by Stella Mon 06 Jan 2014, 11:15 am

A little better than the 1985 bunch.

McDermott
Lawson
O'Donnell
Matthews
Bennett
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Post by alfie Mon 06 Jan 2014, 11:32 am

1958/9 wasn't bad

Davidson
Meckiff ( no 15% tolerance stuff then  Smile  )
Lindwall
Benaud
Rorke. (from about 18 yards !)


and sundry other spinners , some of whom had legal actions...

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Jan 2014, 11:52 am

None matches the England legendsof 93 though:
Lewis
Malcom
McCague
White
Ehlam
Such
Watkin
Tuffnel
Illot
Caddick
Embury
Defraitas
Bicknell


Ah the glory days!
Kind of makes it even worse how badly hammered they got when those players used to be capable of almost making tests competitive.
Should be a reminder to us as well why it is theres pressure on England coaches to show more loyalty to players now rather than chopping and changing as happened in the 90s and also for all the derision about players like Borthwick in the history of our test side they arent that bad.

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Post by msp83 Mon 06 Jan 2014, 12:21 pm

Nathan Lyon had a very good series and he's a capable spinner. But when considering Australian attacks of the recent past, the Shane Warne Glenn McGrath combine has to be considered at least as 3 bowlers. The Australians bowled absolutely superbly throughout this series, but they are not better than the Warne-McGrath attack backed up by the likes of Brett Lee and Jason Gillespie.
Its all gone Alastair, cool down, get done with the ODIs, go home and rest, all these delusions will be over!.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Jan 2014, 12:24 pm

msp83 wrote:Nathan Lyon had a very good series and he's a capable spinner. But when considering Australian attacks of the recent past, the Shane Warne Glenn McGrath combine has to be considered at least as 3 bowlers. The Australians bowled absolutely superbly throughout this series, but they are not better than the Warne-McGrath attack backed up by the likes of Brett Lee and Jason Gillespie.
Its all gone Alastair, cool down, get done with the ODIs, go home and rest, all these delusions will be over!.

How many tests in 05/06/07 did England face Warne and McGrath back up by Lee and Gillespie?

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Post by Stella Mon 06 Jan 2014, 12:25 pm

Cook may have mentioned Amir, and Asif, who made him look very ordinary. backed up by Ajmal, as well.
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Post by guildfordbat Mon 06 Jan 2014, 2:55 pm

alfie wrote:Agree with a lot of the comments above.  It isn't really an issue of where these individual bowlers rate in overall lists of Australian Test players.  We are really talking about the group of bowlers as a team , over this one series : and Cook is of course only going back to his first series , ie 2006.
2006/7 was a great bunch.  But they were certainly taken apart in the first innings in Adelaide (never mind they came back with a bang in the second !)  The current group really hardly weakened at any point in the series ( OK , maybe a little in Perth second innings : but even in 2006 that same innings proved a bit trickier to demolish...)

Fair enough call , I reckon.

Alfie - sound comments which I agree with.

You probably do need to factor in some of the comments on Sir Thread's fred about how bad England were in this series to determine how good the Australian bowlers were! However, for consistency, control and domination in a single series it's hard to see past this current quartet.

100 wickets in a 5 match series with England only twice topping 300 and six times all out for less than 180 makes a very compelling case.

PS From my youth, I would give a respectful nod to Lillee, Thomson, Walker and Mallett who often had England in the soup in the mid '70s although even they had the odd stutter along the way.

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Post by msp83 Mon 06 Jan 2014, 2:57 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
msp83 wrote:Nathan Lyon had a very good series and he's a capable spinner. But when considering Australian attacks of the recent past, the Shane Warne Glenn McGrath combine has to be considered at least as 3 bowlers. The Australians bowled absolutely superbly throughout this series, but they are not better than the Warne-McGrath attack backed up by the likes of Brett Lee and Jason Gillespie.
Its all gone Alastair, cool down, get done with the ODIs, go home and rest, all these delusions will be over!.

How many tests in 05/06/07 did England face Warne and McGrath back up by Lee and Gillespie?
Gillespie and Lee were involved in 05, and Stuart Clarke was terrific in 07. And as I said, Warne and McGrath, particularly the former is the real difference.

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Post by msp83 Mon 06 Jan 2014, 3:01 pm

Certainly the Australians bowled superbly well. But England's batting was really really poor, and that inflates an already impressive performance from the Australians.

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Post by msp83 Mon 06 Jan 2014, 3:08 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Agree with a lot of the comments above.  It isn't really an issue of where these individual bowlers rate in overall lists of Australian Test players.  We are really talking about the group of bowlers as a team , over this one series : and Cook is of course only going back to his first series , ie 2006.
2006/7 was a great bunch.  But they were certainly taken apart in the first innings in Adelaide (never mind they came back with a bang in the second !)  The current group really hardly weakened at any point in the series ( OK , maybe a little in Perth second innings : but even in 2006 that same innings proved a bit trickier to demolish...)

Fair enough call , I reckon.

Alfie - sound comments which I agree with.

You probably do need to factor in some of the comments on Sir Thread's fred about how bad England were in this series to determine how good the Australian bowlers were! However, for consistency, control and domination in a single series it's hard to see past this current quartet.

100 wickets in a 5 match series with England only twice topping 300 and six times all out for less than 180 makes a very compelling case.

PS From my youth, I would give a respectful nod to Lillee, Thomson, Walker and Mallett who often had England in the soup in the mid '70s although even they had the odd stutter along the way.
Guildford, the current attack certainly did a better demolition job, but that's about it really. The overall quality of England batting was much better then than what it was here. KP and Collingwood were pretty good with the bat, and Cook, Bell, Flintoff and Strauss also chipped in though not regularly enough. But in this series, England's struggles with the bat that was going on for the best part of 2 years reached its lowest point. Doubtless is the brilliance of this Australian bowling unit, but to suggest they were individually or collectively better than the Warne and McGrath led lot is nothing but escapism in my view.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 06 Jan 2014, 3:24 pm

msp83 wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Agree with a lot of the comments above.  It isn't really an issue of where these individual bowlers rate in overall lists of Australian Test players.  We are really talking about the group of bowlers as a team , over this one series : and Cook is of course only going back to his first series , ie 2006.
2006/7 was a great bunch.  But they were certainly taken apart in the first innings in Adelaide (never mind they came back with a bang in the second !)  The current group really hardly weakened at any point in the series ( OK , maybe a little in Perth second innings : but even in 2006 that same innings proved a bit trickier to demolish...)

Fair enough call , I reckon.

Alfie - sound comments which I agree with.

You probably do need to factor in some of the comments on Sir Thread's fred about how bad England were in this series to determine how good the Australian bowlers were! However, for consistency, control and domination in a single series it's hard to see past this current quartet.

100 wickets in a 5 match series with England only twice topping 300 and six times all out for less than 180 makes a very compelling case.

PS From my youth, I would give a respectful nod to Lillee, Thomson, Walker and Mallett who often had England in the soup in the mid '70s although even they had the odd stutter along the way.
Guildford, the current attack certainly did a better demolition job, but that's about it really. The overall quality of England batting was much better then than what it was here. KP and Collingwood were pretty good with the bat, and Cook, Bell, Flintoff and Strauss also chipped in though not regularly enough. But in this series, England's struggles with the bat that was going on for the best part of 2 years reached its lowest point. Doubtless is the brilliance of this Australian bowling unit, but to suggest they were individually or collectively better than the Warne and McGrath led lot is nothing but escapism in my view.

Msp - re your final sentence. I trust you appreciate from my post that I'm not suggesting that is the case at all (even if others are).

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Post by msp83 Mon 06 Jan 2014, 3:49 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
msp83 wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Agree with a lot of the comments above.  It isn't really an issue of where these individual bowlers rate in overall lists of Australian Test players.  We are really talking about the group of bowlers as a team , over this one series : and Cook is of course only going back to his first series , ie 2006.
2006/7 was a great bunch.  But they were certainly taken apart in the first innings in Adelaide (never mind they came back with a bang in the second !)  The current group really hardly weakened at any point in the series ( OK , maybe a little in Perth second innings : but even in 2006 that same innings proved a bit trickier to demolish...)

Fair enough call , I reckon.

Alfie - sound comments which I agree with.

You probably do need to factor in some of the comments on Sir Thread's fred about how bad England were in this series to determine how good the Australian bowlers were! However, for consistency, control and domination in a single series it's hard to see past this current quartet.

100 wickets in a 5 match series with England only twice topping 300 and six times all out for less than 180 makes a very compelling case.

PS From my youth, I would give a respectful nod to Lillee, Thomson, Walker and Mallett who often had England in the soup in the mid '70s although even they had the odd stutter along the way.
Guildford, the current attack certainly did a better demolition job, but that's about it really. The overall quality of England batting was much better then than what it was here. KP and Collingwood were pretty good with the bat, and Cook, Bell, Flintoff and Strauss also chipped in though not regularly enough. But in this series, England's struggles with the bat that was going on for the best part of 2 years reached its lowest point. Doubtless is the brilliance of this Australian bowling unit, but to suggest they were individually or collectively better than the Warne and McGrath led lot is nothing but escapism in my view.

Msp - re your final sentence. I trust you appreciate from my post that I'm not suggesting that is the case at all (even if others are).
Yeah Guildford. More of a response to the general inflection of the debate from my side really.

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Post by Stella Mon 06 Jan 2014, 3:56 pm

Individually, none are as good as McGrath or Warne, but in this series only, they have collectively bowled as well, or better than any OZ team for quite a few years.
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Post by msp83 Mon 06 Jan 2014, 5:03 pm

As I said they certainly did a better demolition job this time round against a struggling batting unit that turned completely spineless. All credit to Johnson and co, but I am sorry, that doesn't make the attack better than the Warn-McGrath led pack.

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Post by JDizzle Mon 06 Jan 2014, 5:06 pm

I don't know, the only Australian attack that Cook has faced that can even compare to this is the one in 06/07 and by this point McGrath and Warne, whilst still being very, very good, where slightly past their best. Certainly individually that attack was better and maybe collectively too, but I don't think it is as ridiculous a claim as it originally sounded.

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Post by Guest Mon 06 Jan 2014, 5:23 pm

OP- he didn't say that at all.....

Cook said 'it's the best attack i've ever faced in test cricket'...

he didn't face the 05  attack, and the one in 06, had McGrath who by his own standards slowed right down, and was the end of his career, Lee was in and out of the side around that time, Clark was similiar to Siddle, and Warne was the real bright spark by then.

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Post by kingraf Mon 06 Jan 2014, 6:39 pm

2001/02 was a very frightening Australian team, definitely a better XI then the current one... but how good was the opposition? Alright, they demolished England, but is a Ramprakash, Tresco, Butcher middle order even intimidating? They murdered South Africa in the six test back to back, but that may have been the worst South African side ever put out... They lost to India in India as well, a place a very limited South Africa manufactured a win a year earlier. They may be a better XI, but I don't buy the assertion that they are Gods, or that their bowling attack was miles above anything ever seen..
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Post by msp83 Mon 06 Jan 2014, 7:41 pm

Kingraf, Warne and McGrath are in a different league in comparison to anyone in the current attack. Ryan Harris, if he would have been fit enough, may or may not have come close, but that is a non-starter as such. This very good attack was made to look miles better by a struggling batting lineup hitting rockbottom. When you say the 01 attack dealt with the likes of Ramps, Well then, this lineup hadn opener who didn't excite many at the time of his selection, and despite some fight, never challenged the attack on a sustained basis or looked a sound bet for test cricket at the age of 33. They lost their number 3 after the first game, number 6 remained a troubled spot, and number 7 came off a home series where he averaged 19. And the other senior players, Cook and Pietersen were also not near their best even in the home series.

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Post by kingraf Mon 06 Jan 2014, 8:03 pm

I'm sorry but are you really telling me that rolling out Artheton, Thorpe, Stewart and Ramprakesh is really the threshold for greatness, and that is somehow a greater achievement?
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Post by msp83 Mon 06 Jan 2014, 8:13 pm

kingraf wrote:I'm sorry but are you really telling me that rolling out Artheton, Thorpe, Stewart and Ramprakesh is really the threshold for greatness, and that is somehow a greater achievement?
No not exactly. I am trying to say what Cook said is not quite on the mark. Warne, McGrath, Lee and Gillespie have knocked over the best of their era many times. Lets see how the current bunch would go against AB, Amla and Captain Colossal.

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Post by invisiblecoolers Tue 07 Jan 2014, 3:06 am

Nore Staat wrote:In terms of bowling speed I believe Mitchell Johnson is faster than Glenn McGrath but slower than Brett Lee.

Can you give us the actual quote & context of supposed statement.

Check on M Vaughan's twitter, it was shown on Cricinfo page with M Vaughan posting a statement of Cook's question.

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Post by invisiblecoolers Tue 07 Jan 2014, 3:09 am

kingraf wrote:I think the OP is intentionally abstract. It's cool to say "are Siddle, Johnson, Harris really better than Lee, McGrath, Gillespie, Kasprowicz, Stuart Clark etc?" But that's unfair, because those guys never performed in concert as some eight-man pace battery. A more fair question is: Is the current attack better than any previous Ashes bowling attack? In my opinion - yes.

WTF u mean by OP's intentionally abstract? Vaughan posted the question on his twitter book and I copied that on V2, don't bring your personal bias to make another meaningless comment. picard 

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Post by invisiblecoolers Tue 07 Jan 2014, 3:12 am

Stella wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Stella wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
invisiblecoolers wrote:Has Cook gone Crazy or is he doing a damage control, M Vaughan posted this question on twitter, lemme post this to 606v2 fans, what made Cook feel this and is it the real scanario?

The current crop better than McGrath,B Lee, Gillespie, S Clarke, Warne, S Macgill,  and the other countless who didn't get enough chances like A Bickel etc,.. ?  picard

whether True or otherwise is besides the point.....Cook  sounds like " My white-wash was better than yours"...and hence sounding cheap and undignified.

he would do well to keep his mouth shut and if asked for ...simply state that his side for thoroughly outplayed.

His comment " I have the vote of confidence " was also uncalled for......doesn't do him any good but a lot of harm.

but I have been saying right from the start of the tour Cook has opened his mouth many times at the wrong-time and spoken wrong words.

He was paying them a complement. Is that so wrong?

whether True or otherwise is besides the point.....Cook  sounds like " My white-wash was better than yours"...and hence sounding cheap and undignified.

What are you going on about? Cook was speaking about the tour, and how disappointed he was, and also mentioned as to how good the Aussie attack was. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. To me, he he doesn't speak from the heart enough.

To be frank the Aussie attack was good, but this English side played some of the worst matches in Ashes history to go down 5-0, may be they were over confident, complacent, pressure or what ever part of the reason for 5-0 is self destruction.

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Post by invisiblecoolers Tue 07 Jan 2014, 3:16 am

Mike Selig wrote:The assertion is not unreasonable (which isn't to say that Harris, Siddle and co are better bowlers than McGrath etc.). I think the point is nobody from this 5 man attack has had a poor test.

Looking at recent Aussie attacks:

- declaring this attack better than the one(s) used in the previous 3 ashes series is self-evident: last time around we had Agar playing 2 tests, constant (enforced) chop and changing, an out-of sorts Pattinson at times, etc.; in 2010/11 we had Johnson spraying them apart from Perth, Bollinger and Hilfenhaus about as threatening as your gran trying to mug you with her false teeth, a plethora of fairly hopeless spinners, etc.; in 2009 Johnson was at his most infuriatingly inconsistent, and Stuart Clark bowling friendly medium pacers (which worked at Headingley but not at the Oval) - apart from that the attack was decent (Hauritz as a spinner compares reasonably to Lyon in this series) but there is probably no bowler you would take over any of the bowlers in this series.

I suppose 06/07 was a very strong attack: Clark at his peak, Warne, McGrath and Lee. McGrath was arguably not quite at his peak anymore (although he did produce some great performances), whilst Warne had a couple of moments, but was poor at Sydney say. Lee I thought was one of the unsung heroes of that series actually: came up with crucial wickets. However that attack conceded 550 at Adelaide, and strong second innings performances at Brisbane and Perth. Collingwood scored heavily, and he is hardly a great player (although arguably England are still to replace him in the middle-order). To state this current attack has bowled consistently better is debateable for sure, but not unreasonable.

2005, well McGrath could only play half the tests (and was clearly unfit at Old Trafford). Warne was masterful, Lee was excellent, but whoever bowled as 3rd seamer (Gillespie, Kasperwicz, Tait) were rubbish. No contest.

2002/03: again injuries played a part - Warne played only 3 tests, and McGrath 4. Indeed the Aus attack without Warne and McGrath at Sydney looked only decent (a sign of things to come...). Gillespie was excellent, and Lee and Bichel had their moments, but again, no contest.

2001: personally I think that Australian team was the greatest I've ever seen, and challenging for the best of all time. Langer (once he replaced Slater), Hayden, Ponting, Waugh, Waugh, Martyn, Gilchrist, Warne, Lee, Gillespie (at his absolute best), McGrath. Tough to beat that if you ask me. For the first 3 tests their attack was the best I've seen also: Warne at his best, McGrath at his best, Gillespie bowling superbly, and Lee as a bit of a wildcard but bowling some blistering pace. They fell off a bit towards the end of the series, but I would rank that attack slightly above this one, mainly because if you got through the seamers (as England did at Edgbaston) then you faced Warne... Cook wasn't playing though...

I could go back further (but not before the 90s), but would struggle to find an attack which has matched the current one I have to say..

Great Analysis  thumbsup , but how good is the current English side in comparison with all those toured? would the current English side escape a white wash had they played the similar way in 05/06? will the result be same for that England side of this Aussie attack?

Cook not only did damage control by his statement but insulted that English side that bravely took a World class Aussie attack.

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Post by Mike Selig Tue 07 Jan 2014, 10:18 am

I think this side bowled better (we were at least spared Harmison bowling balls off the strip, and Saj Mahmood bowling... well, just bowling to be honest) but batted less well than the side in 06/07. Having said that the side in 06/07 had its moments as well, namely the collapse at Adelaide, gifting Warne 5 wickets on the opening day at the MCG, collapsing at Sydney, etc.

Let's also not rewrite history: in 06/07 England arrived with much the same personnel as had played in 05, against an Aussie side with a few key differences (Hussey and Clark being the main two additions, and what a difference they made). Many thought they stood a good chance of retaining the ashes at the time and there was a lot of bullish talk from the fans and media before the series. Of course in hindsight this was very mistaken, but it's not as if the 06/07 were a bunch of no-hopers either (at the start of the tour at least).

It is always difficult to determine whether results such as these are because one side has played exceptionally well or the other exceptionally poorly. Usually a bit of both.

I don't think anybody is claiming this is a great Australian bowling attack (although IMO it is a very good one) - however they were great during this series.

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Post by msp83 Tue 07 Jan 2014, 4:11 pm

Mike Selig wrote:I think this side bowled better (we were at least spared Harmison bowling balls off the strip, and Saj Mahmood bowling... well, just bowling to be honest) but batted less well than the side in 06/07. Having said that the side in 06/07 had its moments as well, namely the collapse at Adelaide, gifting Warne 5 wickets on the opening day at the MCG, collapsing at Sydney, etc.

Let's also not rewrite history: in 06/07 England arrived with much the same personnel as had played in 05, against an Aussie side with a few key differences (Hussey and Clark being the main two additions, and what a difference they made). Many thought they stood a good chance of retaining the ashes at the time and there was a lot of bullish talk from the fans and media before the series. Of course in hindsight this was very mistaken, but it's not as if the 06/07 were a bunch of no-hopers either (at the start of the tour at least).

It is always difficult to determine whether results such as these are because one side has played exceptionally well or the other exceptionally poorly. Usually a bit of both.

I don't think anybody is claiming this is a great Australian bowling attack (although IMO it is a very good one) - however they were great during this series.
There is no doubt the current attack was superb in this series, but that doesn't make them greater than the previous attacks just like that. Cook would have been better off stopping at saying this Australian attack was great during the series concluded.
By the way Mike, Michael Clarke was part of the 05 Ashes, and England were missing their charismatic Ashes winning skipper Michael Vaughan, Marcus Trescothick and Simon Jones, 3 very key players who played major roles in the success of 2005.

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Post by invisiblecoolers Wed 08 Jan 2014, 2:30 am

msp83 wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:I think this side bowled better (we were at least spared Harmison bowling balls off the strip, and Saj Mahmood bowling... well, just bowling to be honest) but batted less well than the side in 06/07. Having said that the side in 06/07 had its moments as well, namely the collapse at Adelaide, gifting Warne 5 wickets on the opening day at the MCG, collapsing at Sydney, etc.

Let's also not rewrite history: in 06/07 England arrived with much the same personnel as had played in 05, against an Aussie side with a few key differences (Hussey and Clark being the main two additions, and what a difference they made). Many thought they stood a good chance of retaining the ashes at the time and there was a lot of bullish talk from the fans and media before the series. Of course in hindsight this was very mistaken, but it's not as if the 06/07 were a bunch of no-hopers either (at the start of the tour at least).

It is always difficult to determine whether results such as these are because one side has played exceptionally well or the other exceptionally poorly. Usually a bit of both.

I don't think anybody is claiming this is a great Australian bowling attack (although IMO it is a very good one) - however they were great during this series.
There is no doubt the current attack was superb in this series, but that doesn't make them greater than the previous attacks just like that. Cook would have been better off stopping at saying this Australian attack was great during the series concluded.
By the way Mike, Michael Clarke was part of the 05 Ashes, and England were missing their charismatic Ashes winning skipper Michael Vaughan, Marcus Trescothick and Simon Jones, 3 very key players who played major roles in the success of 2005.

Very good points  thumbsup 

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 08 Jan 2014, 9:05 am

msp83 wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:I think this side bowled better (we were at least spared Harmison bowling balls off the strip, and Saj Mahmood bowling... well, just bowling to be honest) but batted less well than the side in 06/07. Having said that the side in 06/07 had its moments as well, namely the collapse at Adelaide, gifting Warne 5 wickets on the opening day at the MCG, collapsing at Sydney, etc.

Let's also not rewrite history: in 06/07 England arrived with much the same personnel as had played in 05, against an Aussie side with a few key differences (Hussey and Clark being the main two additions, and what a difference they made). Many thought they stood a good chance of retaining the ashes at the time and there was a lot of bullish talk from the fans and media before the series. Of course in hindsight this was very mistaken, but it's not as if the 06/07 were a bunch of no-hopers either (at the start of the tour at least).

It is always difficult to determine whether results such as these are because one side has played exceptionally well or the other exceptionally poorly. Usually a bit of both.

I don't think anybody is claiming this is a great Australian bowling attack (although IMO it is a very good one) - however they were great during this series.
There is no doubt the current attack was superb in this series, but that doesn't make them greater than the previous attacks just like that. Cook would have been better off stopping at saying this Australian attack was great during the series concluded.
By the way Mike, Michael Clarke was part of the 05 Ashes, and England were missing their charismatic Ashes winning skipper Michael Vaughan, Marcus Trescothick and Simon Jones, 3 very key players who played major roles in the success of 2005.

Still misrepresents what he said.
He did not say that this was the best bowling attack that he had ever faced, just that they bolwed better in this series than anything hed faced before in the ashes. Partly an admission that Mcgrath and co may have been below their best.

There is only a finite number of times this can be explained. Saying this was the best bowling hes faced in an ashes is not the same as saying this is the greatest bowling attack australia have possessed in that same period, just that they produced the goods on the day to a level that previous ones had not.
No different to Clarke saying that Jonsons bowling was as good as any by the legends, doenst mean he thinks the guy should be in the same hall of fame as those that did it through their careers.

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Post by Mike Selig Wed 08 Jan 2014, 10:27 am

msp83 wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:I think this side bowled better (we were at least spared Harmison bowling balls off the strip, and Saj Mahmood bowling... well, just bowling to be honest) but batted less well than the side in 06/07. Having said that the side in 06/07 had its moments as well, namely the collapse at Adelaide, gifting Warne 5 wickets on the opening day at the MCG, collapsing at Sydney, etc.

Let's also not rewrite history: in 06/07 England arrived with much the same personnel as had played in 05, against an Aussie side with a few key differences (Hussey and Clark being the main two additions, and what a difference they made). Many thought they stood a good chance of retaining the ashes at the time and there was a lot of bullish talk from the fans and media before the series. Of course in hindsight this was very mistaken, but it's not as if the 06/07 were a bunch of no-hopers either (at the start of the tour at least).

It is always difficult to determine whether results such as these are because one side has played exceptionally well or the other exceptionally poorly. Usually a bit of both.

I don't think anybody is claiming this is a great Australian bowling attack (although IMO it is a very good one) - however they were great during this series.
There is no doubt the current attack was superb in this series, but that doesn't make them greater than the previous attacks just like that. Cook would have been better off stopping at saying this Australian attack was great during the series concluded.
By the way Mike, Michael Clarke was part of the 05 Ashes, and England were missing their charismatic Ashes winning skipper Michael Vaughan, Marcus Trescothick and Simon Jones, 3 very key players who played major roles in the success of 2005.

I don't disagree with any of that (although I meant Stuart Clark, not Michael Clarke...). However there is a difference between saying this attack is greater than that of 06/07 (which, at least at this stage, and probably for ever, is nonsense) and saying that as a unit and over the course of the whole series they bowled better (which, as I pointed out in my opening post on this thread, is debatable but has merit, as is IMO the point Cook was trying to make).

Cook should perhaps have been more careful with what he said and how he put it (he has inevitably drawn the type of misrepresentation we have seen), but at the end of the day maybe he was just being honest?

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Post by Stella Wed 08 Jan 2014, 10:35 am

I saw it as he was paying them a compliment? Much ado about nothing, and I would guess this bowling attacks was as good as he's came up against, certainly when looking at a one off series.
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