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Flower vs KP - Are the Battle Lines being drawn?

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Post by Rowley Tue 07 Jan 2014, 5:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/07/andy-flower-england-team-director-kevin-pietersen

Interesting article on the Guardian suggesting that Andy Flower’s decision to either stay on as England director of cricket may rest on whether Kevin Pietersen remains part of the England set up. According to the article Flower has become increasingly exasperated with both Pietersen’s cavalier attitude to batting and the effect his ego has on the dressing room, with the root of the issues dating back to the infamous texts he sent to the South African players.

I really do not know what to make of this, think in any sport or team no player can be bigger than the team and the same should apply to KP. I can also have some sympathy with his views on KP’s batting, I have often thought that I struggle to think of a player of comparable talent who gets out in quite so many stupid ways. It also seems somewhat clear that KP has an ego to match his prodigious talent.

However whilst all this may be true as someone posted on another thread is the job of management not to manage egos and different personalities and get the best of them. Would have to think at the top levels of sport egos and over inflated opinions of one’s own worth are not exactly unusual traits to encounter. Also from a purely cricketing perspective whilst Pietersen may have many faults he is a box office player, perhaps the only English batsman we have capable of gluing you to your seat as a viewer or turning a game round single handedly in the space of a session. Surely there has to be a place for such a player in the team?

Where do we stand on this? Is Flower as the overall gaffer right to make such a stance and demand, can KP be forgiven for arguably seeing off two head coaches? Is he getting to an age where his contributions to the team do not justify the baggage that is seemingly part and parcel. Would be an ignominious end to a fine career but could Pietersen’s days as an England player be coming to an end?

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Post by KP_fan Mon 13 Jan 2014, 2:03 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:They are already missing "the old KP" during his current extended dip in form

"extended dip in form" applies when he is the only one or one of the few showing a dip in form.

here he is still their highest scorer in the series  laughing 
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 13 Jan 2014, 2:15 pm

Yes but his dip in form extends well before the series, and its hurt England.
He has only scored 3 centuries in the last 2 and a half years, hes done that many in a series in his prime.

His record from the Pakistan series onwards perhaps has mirrored Englands overall downturn, but he aint the same player he was. Thats the player England will miss, not the one whos seen his career average drop from 50 to 47

Having said that hes been through this before around 2009 and turned that around.

Whether its him affecting the team or the team affecting him the fact remains he isnt delivering, isnt fully fit, isnt available and isnt contributing positively to the team.
That isnt the KP England want.

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Post by msp83 Mon 13 Jan 2014, 6:57 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Yes but his dip in form extends well before the series, and its hurt England.
He has only scored 3 centuries in the last 2 and a half years, hes done that many in a series in his prime.

His record from the Pakistan series onwards perhaps has mirrored Englands overall downturn, but he aint the same player he was. Thats the player England will miss, not the one whos seen his career average drop from 50 to 47

Having said that hes been through this before around 2009 and turned that around.

Whether its him affecting the team or the team affecting him the fact remains he isnt delivering, isnt fully fit, isnt available and isnt contributing positively to the team.
That isnt the KP England want.
KP had his best series in terms of stats in 2011 against India. The Pakistan series was horrible for him, but after that, he played 3 of his very best knocks, 151 against Sri Lanka, 149 against South Africa, and 186 against India. He wasn't fully fit for the New Zealand tour, didn't recover for the home series against them, and was their 2nd best batsman in the 3-0 Ashes win last summer. But it is obvious that his form has also taken a hit in the collective melt down.

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Post by msp83 Wed 15 Jan 2014, 8:27 am

England limited overs coach Ashley Giles says Kevin Pietersen is a big asset for England, and that there was no thought of not including him in the 30 man provisional list of players for the World T-20.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/709971.html

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Post by Guest Wed 15 Jan 2014, 3:56 pm

one day cricket may be the way forward for KP's international career...he is sorely missed at the top of the order, also it's a different coach in charge in Giles....

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 15 Jan 2014, 4:22 pm

msp83 wrote:England limited overs coach Ashley Giles says Kevin Pietersen is a big asset for England, and that there was no thought of not including him in the 30 man provisional list of players for the World T-20.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/709971.html

Any thoughts as to if Giles is trying to broker a peace deal or launch his own campaign for the top job?

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Post by msp83 Wed 15 Jan 2014, 4:35 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
msp83 wrote:England limited overs coach Ashley Giles says Kevin Pietersen is a big asset for England, and that there was no thought of not including him in the 30 man provisional list of players for the World T-20.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/709971.html

Any thoughts as to if Giles is trying to broker a peace deal or launch his own campaign for the top job?
As of now, I presume Giles is just acting a bit sensible. Not a big fan of Giles as a coach, but anyone would be better than Flower who's shelf life as a coach is up in the England context.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 15 Jan 2014, 4:37 pm

Or that flower has nonissue with kp in the short term for Odis but concerns about his long term fitness, commitment and availability for tests?

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Post by msp83 Wed 15 Jan 2014, 4:43 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Or that flower has nonissue with kp in the short term for Odis but concerns about his long term fitness, commitment and availability for tests?
KP is not going to play for the next 10 years, that's quite obvious. He has made it clear that he wants to play test cricket up to 2015. KP is not the only player who has played through fitness concerns. Flower had no problem playing Tim Bresnan at the first given opportunity even after his fitness problems had reduced his effectiveness for the last couple of years.

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 15 Jan 2014, 4:44 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Or that flower has nonissue with kp in the short term for Odis but concerns about his long term fitness, commitment and availability for tests?

Possibly. Still noticeable though to me that Giles and Flower are singing from different songsheets - or rather that Giles is singing and Flower isn't!


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Post by Hoggy_Bear Wed 15 Jan 2014, 5:33 pm

msp83 wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Or that flower has nonissue with kp in the short term for Odis but concerns about his long term fitness, commitment and availability for tests?
KP is not going to play for the next 10 years, that's quite obvious. He has made it clear that he wants to play test cricket up to 2015. KP is not the only player who has played through fitness concerns. Flower had no problem playing Tim Bresnan at the first given opportunity even after his fitness problems had reduced his effectiveness for the last couple of years.

We have no proof that Flower has an issue with KP regarding fitness, availability, or anything else for that matter.

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 15 Jan 2014, 6:07 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

We have no proof that Flower has an issue with KP regarding fitness, availability, or anything else for that matter.

Hoggy - that is technically correct. However, imo, it is unrealistic to continue to take the view that there are no issues. I'm particularly thinking of the ease with which Flower and Cook could have confirmed there are no issues and their ongoing failure to do so.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Tue 21 Jan 2014, 9:28 am

Mike Selvey seems to be distancing himself from any talk of 'ultimatums' and 'personal vendettas'.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/current/story/711471.html

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Post by alfie Tue 21 Jan 2014, 11:20 am

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Mike Selvey seems to be distancing himself from any talk of 'ultimatums' and 'personal vendettas'.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/current/story/711471.html

Indeed. A very different perspective ...and sounds rather more realistic. Suggests the original story might have involved a little stretching of the truth...


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Post by msp83 Tue 21 Jan 2014, 4:42 pm

Now the question is, is Kevin Pietersen really done as a top level player? After reading this blog, I am reminded of In Chappell having a massive attack on Sachin Tendulkar in the middle of his brother's coaching span with India. He had proclaimed that had Tendulkar asked a mirror whether he should retire, it would say very much so...... After that, Tendulkar had 3 outstanding years of cricket where he played as well as he ever did. Tendulkar had serious elbow troubles in 2006, he averaged something like 20 there.
Kevin Pietersen has had issues with his knee, he's averaging in the mid-30s in the last 12 months.......

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 21 Jan 2014, 6:30 pm

The difference is KP has always had one eye on riches that clash with his international commitments, has demanded release from them in the past. Also Tendulkar did hang on well past his sell by date (like ponting) in test cricket never really knowing when to retire. The similarity with KP is that both of those guys werent being pushed out of the team by players demanding a spot.
We also dont know the extent of KPs injury problems, is the knee something that will or could heal or is it something that the doctors are saying means he has to have limited playing time ( and would he take the IPL off as a rest period?)
If this is a case of KP saying " I want to do play the Ashes ....but on my terms and everyone has to bend over for me" then I have a lot less sympathy for his case than if this is a case of Flower just hating him for making Swann walk.

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Post by msp83 Thu 30 Jan 2014, 8:00 am

So the list of players up for an IPL bid is out. Along with the likes of Luke Wright, Eoin Morgan, Ravi Bopara, Alex Hales, Samit Patel and of course Kevin Pietersen, another important name in there is that of Ian Bell.
Does it make him unprofessional and greedy? Does it mean he's noncommittal to English cricket? Particularly test cricket as he'll miss early season county cricket that would be needed to get him into shape for the test season?
Would Flower say Me or Him in Bell's case also?
Like Pietersen, Bell is also pushing 33 and may not be around for the next 10 years in England's regenerated test side.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Thu 30 Jan 2014, 8:37 am

Msp
Fact of the matter is that, as far as I'm aware, there is no evidence that anyone from the England camp has said that KPs participation in the IPL makes him 'unprofessional and greedy' or 'noncommital to English cricket'. Nor is there any evidence that Flower has issued any 'Me or Him' ultimatums, particularly on the basis of being in the IPL.
So your point about Bell is somewhat moot.

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Post by msp83 Thu 30 Jan 2014, 8:56 am

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Msp
Fact of the matter is that, as far as I'm aware, there is no evidence that anyone from the England camp has said that KPs participation in the IPL makes him 'unprofessional and greedy' or 'noncommital to English cricket'. Nor is there any evidence that Flower has issued any 'Me or Him' ultimatums, particularly on the basis of being in the IPL.
So your point about Bell is somewhat moot.
Not too sure about that hoggy.
These things do not always come out through endorsed and signed statements. Media reports suggested that the IPL participation was going to be the big test for Pietersen, and his participation has been used to suggest that he's not committed to England and he's more interested in making money rather than playing for England.......

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Thu 30 Jan 2014, 9:27 am

Who has suggested that KP is not committed to England? The media?
Using media speculation as the basis of your assertions is pretty tenuous.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 30 Jan 2014, 10:02 am

It depends what you call comitted.

If you mean com
It the in the way that I'm not leaving my girlfriend but do sleep aroun then yes. But he wants a degree if control over his time which clashes with the interests of England.
His is in the ipl auction but rested for England intentional games.
That is not 100% forsaking all other commitment.

Understandably he's also looking over his shoulder thinking what happens if I do get ditched by England and still needs to pay his credit card bill.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 30 Jan 2014, 10:04 am

Bell braking ranks also puts him into tht category.

The others though are only in limited overs squads an its felt if anything beneficial that thy get the high level playing time.

I think it's no unfair to call Patel greedy though Wink

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Post by amanuensis Thu 30 Jan 2014, 4:57 pm

msp83 wrote:So the list of players up for an IPL bid is out. Along with the likes of Luke Wright, Eoin Morgan, Ravi Bopara, Alex Hales, Samit Patel and of course Kevin Pietersen, another important name in there is that of Ian Bell.
Does it make him unprofessional and greedy? Does it mean he's noncommittal to English cricket? Particularly test cricket as he'll miss early season county cricket that would be needed to get him into shape for the test season?
Would Flower say Me or Him in Bell's case also?
Like Pietersen, Bell is also pushing 33 and may not be around for the next 10 years in England's regenerated test side.

Bell is pushing 32, Pietersen 34, so quite a difference.

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 05 Feb 2014, 10:06 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
banbrotam wrote:

--Averages 33, in the last year  Rolling Eyes 


I completely agree with the implication that a Test batting average over the last year isn't - or shouldn't be - good enough.

I do wonder though who is good enough to step up from the County Championship and replace Pietersen. Whilst somewhat limited due to Pietersen's unavailability, his stats in that competition for Surrey over the last two seasons still show just how good he is compared to his county peers and perhaps indicate what a massive leap it is from there to the Test arena.

CC matches played in 2012 and 2013: 5
Innings: 8
Not Outs: 2
Runs: 749
Highest Score: 234*
100s: 3
50s: 2
Average: 124.83

The above doesn't mean England should keep Pietersen at all costs. However, if he is to be shown the door we need to be fully aware what we are losing and why.

Apologies for the repetition but I thought this post probably had more relevance now than when it first appeared.

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Post by skyeman Wed 05 Feb 2014, 10:29 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
banbrotam wrote:

--Averages 33, in the last year  Rolling Eyes 


I completely agree with the implication that a Test batting average over the last year isn't - or shouldn't be - good enough.

I do wonder though who is good enough to step up from the County Championship and replace Pietersen. Whilst somewhat limited due to Pietersen's unavailability, his stats in that competition for Surrey over the last two seasons still show just how good he is compared to his county peers and perhaps indicate what a massive leap it is from there to the Test arena.

CC matches played in 2012 and 2013: 5
Innings: 8
Not Outs: 2
Runs: 749
Highest Score: 234*
100s: 3
50s: 2
Average: 124.83

The above doesn't mean England should keep Pietersen at all costs. However, if he is to be shown the door we need to be fully aware what we are losing and why.

Apologies for the repetition but I thought this post probably had more relevance now than when it first appeared.


Been most definitely discussed today. Got saturdays lotto numbers Gb

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 05 Feb 2014, 10:44 pm

skyeman wrote: ...


Been most definitely discussed today.  Got saturdays lotto numbers Gb

Skye - not yet but I will have in a few days.  Wink 

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Post by CaledonianCraig Thu 06 Feb 2014, 7:44 am

Perhaps people were reading the opposite into the Flower/KP relationship?

After all does it not seem odd how things have gone? Flower looked set to hold onto the role until called in for a meeting with the ECB and then he was gone. Was it that they explained their intentions with regards KP and unless Flower towed the line he would be replaced? That seems very possible don't you think?

Flower being emptied/forced out call it what you will and KP following shortly after tells me that their relationship wasn't as fractitious as made out.
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