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Is Moyes a good enough Manager at the highest level?

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Is Moyes a good enough Manager at the highest level?

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Is Moyes a good enough Manager at the highest level? Empty Is Moyes a good enough Manager at the highest level?

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 1:53 pm

Simple Poll question really. Yes or no answers.

Discuss why below


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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:12 pm

In response to this:

mystiroakey wrote:Be careful of what you wish for Dolph. Be very careful.

But explain your reasoning's?

Why do you think he is a good manager. Why would you rather have him than other managers of his stature?

What has he ever done to suggest he is a top manager?

How quickly people forget. Be careful what I wish for? I'll be careful of bringing in a manager who transformed Everton and made them what they are at this moment. Cos I'd hate to be a top 8 side.

He did incredibly well with Everton on a budget that didnt deserve that success. I would take him over Pulis everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. Over Allardyce, over everyone else on our possible replacements list the bookies offer (except Bielsa, who we'll never get but I love).

Martinez is the name right now, but hes benefited from the Moyes time, as well as getting a better striker than Everton have been able to attract in a while in Lukaku.

Sir Alex Ferguson thought him good enough to continue the Man United legacy, so yeah, I think he'd be good enough for West Ham.

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:17 pm

This thread isn't really about West ham Dolph.

There are not a top club.

the question is if you think Moyes is a good manager at the HIGHEST LEVEL?

Yes or No and explain.

-------------

Everton are a big club- There were never transformed by Moyes- To suggest that is seriously Forgeting how good Everton are and have been throughout history. They have a huge fan base.

If you think Moyes equals top 8- then well errrr. yeah ok.

Maybe for Man U...

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Post by sodhat on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:21 pm

There should be a maybe option, because it's still not clear. Was Ferguson good enough for the top level 7 months into his reign?

Moyes has had sustained Premier League success for a period of 13 years, including a top 4 finish, above the Champions of Europe that season.

If that isn't the top level, what is? Champions League? Because he's won 4 of 6 this season and not lost once.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:23 pm

mystiroakey wrote:This thread isn't really about West ham Dolph.

There are not a top club.

the question is if you think Moyes is a good manager at the HIGHEST LEVEL?

Yes or No and explain.

-------------

Everton are a big club- There were never transformed by Moyes- To suggest that is seriously Forgeting how good Everton are and have been throughout history. They have a huge fan base.

If you think Moyes equals top 8- then well errrr. yeah ok.

Maybe for Man U...

I know that Mysti, but it was better to discuss Moyes here than in the Transfer Thread! You're forgetting how Everton were when he took over and how well he did there. Revisionist history now Mysti.

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:23 pm

sodhat wrote:There should be a maybe option, because it's still not clear. Was Ferguson good enough for the top level 7 months into his reign?

Moyes has had sustained Premier League success for a period of 13 years, including a top 4 finish, above the Champions of Europe that season.

If that isn't the top level, what is? Champions League? Because he's won 4 of 6 this season and not lost once.

I purposefully didnt [ut maybe on there- as everyone would have voted maybe.

We all dont know that's the point of the question.

Will he be one or not is the question.. Because he isn't a proven manager at the highest level. You have to make a judgement. Anyone 'maybe' could be a top class manager ..

And all you need to understand about high level is the context. Man U are one of the biggest clubs in the world,. They are elite. Everton are top 20 at best - never better.(quality team and everything- but not highest level)

Highest level Is yes the regular top CL teams like Man U.



Last edited by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by sodhat on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:25 pm

mystiroakey wrote:This thread isn't really about West ham Dolph.

There are not a top club.

the question is if you think Moyes is a good manager at the HIGHEST LEVEL?

Yes or No and explain.

-------------

Everton are a big club- There were never transformed by Moyes- To suggest that is seriously Forgeting how good Everton are and have been throughout history. They have a huge fan base.


So what if they have a huge fanbase? They have a small outdated ground and very little money to spend. The chairman has been trying to sell them for years.

If people are forgetting Everton won a fair few pots in the 80s, then you're forgetting they were a struggling PL club when he took over, perennially fighting relegation. He solidified them, quickly, and kept them there with less investment than rival clubs.

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Post by Guest on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:25 pm

Way to early to judge Moyes at a top level club, even though I have said he`s looked clueless at times. Everything was working against him, ranging from Woodward`s appointment, United being Champions, their rivals spending massively & obviously following on from Sir Alex. Contrast that to Martinez, who basically inherited a good consistent side who had no real pressure of challenging n just hang about outside the top 4, even with Moyes. Yeah, Everton play some good football now but at the end of the season, I can't see them making top 4, so hardly major progress since Moyes left. Everton just have loans galore, hardly long term stability.

Moyes needs time & he will get it. He needs to make the exodus summer happen, bring in his own players n style & the you can begin to judge him fairly.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:26 pm

But will he ever play Zaha? Answer that, and then you know the answer to the poll  Wink 

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:30 pm

sodhat wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:This thread isn't really about West ham Dolph.

There are not a top club.

the question is if you think Moyes is a good manager at the HIGHEST LEVEL?

Yes or No and explain.

-------------

Everton are a big club- There were never transformed by Moyes- To suggest that is seriously Forgeting how good Everton are and have been throughout history. They have a huge fan base.


So what if they have a huge fanbase? They have a small outdated ground and very little money to spend. The chairman has been trying to sell them for years.

If people are forgetting Everton won a fair few pots in the 80s, then you're forgetting they were a struggling PL club when he took over, perennially fighting relegation. He solidified them, quickly, and kept them there with less investment than rival clubs.

Ok fair enough. Everton were bottom half and then moyes got them into top half.

But when did he kick on, Has there been a steady learning curve shown from him..

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:31 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:But will he ever play Zaha? Answer that, and then you know the answer to the poll  Wink 

I doubt it mate!!

I doubt either will be there for more than 2 years..

And Zaha will be on loan for that whole period

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Post by sodhat on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:34 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
sodhat wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:This thread isn't really about West ham Dolph.

There are not a top club.

the question is if you think Moyes is a good manager at the HIGHEST LEVEL?

Yes or No and explain.

-------------

Everton are a big club- There were never transformed by Moyes- To suggest that is seriously Forgeting how good Everton are and have been throughout history. They have a huge fan base.


So what if they have a huge fanbase? They have a small outdated ground and very little money to spend. The chairman has been trying to sell them for years.

If people are forgetting Everton won a fair few pots in the 80s, then you're forgetting they were a struggling PL club when he took over, perennially fighting relegation. He solidified them, quickly, and kept them there with less investment than rival clubs.

Ok fair enough. Everton were bottom half and then moyes got them into top half.

But when did he kick on, Has there been a steady learning curve shown from him..

Did you really expect him to kick on, in this era of huge money, with a club with little money? What other club or manager has done that in recent years?

It took City time to make the top 4 when they were shelling out huge money on players.

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:35 pm

Yeah i expect all managers to get better on the job, just like players

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Post by CFCNick on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:40 pm

Moyes' largest weakness for me is that despite how good a job he did at Everton he has no idea how to work the transfer market. He doesn't know how to close a deal which was proved in the summer.

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:42 pm

well he just signed Mata mate>

So maybe he has learned!

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Post by sodhat on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:45 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Yeah i expect all managers to get better on the job, just like players

There is a ceiling in the PL though, you have to appreciate that. If it were a level playing field then yes we can judge and say he should have been challenging for the title at Everton, but it's not. Clubs are richer than other clubs, and those clubs win the titles. Moyes took Everton to the highest point they could realistically expect to reach in my opinion.

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Post by CFCNick on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:46 pm

mystiroakey wrote:well he just signed Mata mate>

So maybe he has learned!

Wait until he signs someone who isn't being shopped around by his club or steals someone from under a rivals nose.

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:53 pm

It is a skill in itself to keep a team in that position for so long I agree.

But at the same time, did he not stagnate there?

That by the way is not saying its necessarily his fault but the way it goes, because as you say Everton has a ceiling

Martinez has injected new life into Everton for me. That doesn't necessarily mean he is a better manager on the face of it. Just that the team needed a change and that Moyes stagnated.

Whereas on the flip side Moyes goes to United and the players got the life sucked out of them instead.

Man U appointed Moyes as a replacement for Fergie.

If they had gone with a Mourinhio then they would have come with there own philosophies from the off.

Picking Moyes was like England picking Mclarean, Chelsea picking AVB.

They were picking cheap versions of the managers before.. Rather than Picking another great Manager that does things his way!

By the way my Anger is subsiding.

If Moyes proves me wrong i will be the first to hold my hand up and I wont be gutted. Good luck to him!

BUt I still cant see it working out.




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Post by nasisillmatic on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 4:56 pm

I believe Moyes will eventually get it right, it's whether the fans will allow him the time to try.

He over achieved with Everton nearly every season, I think they would've gone down if it wasn't for him.

People are too quick to forget the fantastic work he did at that club.

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 4:58 pm

It's not about the fans, it's about his employers,

And if he gets sacked from united I can't see him getting a top club again.

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Post by nasisillmatic on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 5:51 pm

I think the club are fully behind him, but if the fans inside the ground start to revolt, it could force there hand

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 7:02 pm

Its going to be based on results.

I would guess that Moyes will be garanteed his job untill the window next year what ever he does.. well as long as he doesn't finish worse than 7th anyway.

I cant see united keeping him if they are in this position again next year and haven't qualified for CL that year


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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 7:36 pm

CFCNick wrote:Moyes' largest weakness for me is that despite how good a job he did at Everton he has no idea how to work the transfer market. He doesn't know how to close a deal which was proved in the summer.  

That is no longer down to the manager, that is the failings of the chief executive, do you honestly think Mourinho has much dealings in transfers beyond naming his targets because he doesn't. I would suggest the team he built at Everton on a very tight budget would suggest a manager who is very very shrewd with his transfer targets, it will take him time to adapt to now targeting the worlds best players. He also doesn't have the benefit of a bottomless pit of money like City or Chelsea where they don't have to take cost in to consideration.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 10:33 pm

not good enough

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Post by socal1976 on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 11:06 pm

I honestly think the problems existed before this. United outside of RVP had not bought as many QUALITY players as they had bought in the past. Meanwhile we have the emergence of the two super rich teams in Chelsea and Man City. United's record purchase is now even after Mata 5 million less than Arsenal's. The core of old legends was stuck with for too long by Ferguson and not dynamic enough players other than one purchase in a number of windows was made. Plus these are Ferguson's players and they are not going to have the same relationship with Moyes. And Moyes is no Ferguson not now and probably never, so it goes beyond Moyes and his lineups and substitutions that are making the difference. Still the club has huge resources and is obviously going to be back probably sooner rather than later.

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 11:24 pm

Yep the problems existed way before. However is moyes the man to fix them?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 11:27 pm

Who knows? Its one of the more unique jobs to ever exist in football. You could compare it to the old Liverpool side, but modern football is so different

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Post by Crimey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 11:43 pm

Far too early to judge for me, he was fantastic at Everton where he made them into a quality side under quite a strict budget. Not easy to make the transition but far too early to say if it has worked.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 24 Jan 2014, 12:00 am

As others have stated he did a brilliant job at Everton, and it's far too early to judge him at Utd.

As for Martinez at Everton, he is pretty much playing the same system Moyes did (the 4-2-3-1 with fullbacks providing width), but he's got the luxury of a couple of good loan signings in particular up front (which Moyes never really cracked there bar Cahill) which will leave them in a pickle next year especially if they continue with their policy of not investing.
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Post by Crimey on Fri 24 Jan 2014, 1:34 am

I like Martinez but to suggest that he's better than Moyes was at Everton is very short-sighted I feel. He's had a very great year, and has them playing some really good football but he hasn't done anything yet to show that he's doing a lot different from Moyes. Like Olly said they've got some excellent loan signings this year, but the team is essentially the Moyes side and the key players are either loan signings who might not be there next year or Moyes' key men playing the same role as they did before.

The proof of how good both managers are will be after a period of time so both can transition from the previous manager. In Moyes' case we're looking at whether he can get out of the shadow of Ferguson and improve results, and in Martinez's whether he can improve on Moyes' squad or at least keep them at the same level when he has to build his own team.

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Post by J.Benson II on Fri 24 Jan 2014, 5:59 pm

Moyes did great with Everton. Took them from a struggling PL side to one that became very solid and respectable. He even managed a Top 4 finish once which was quite an achievement considering they were relegation candidates just a few years prior.
However, its too early to tell if he can make the jump up to manage United succesfully. He could turn things round if he's given the time but thats the key point - "if he's given the time".
Football teams, especially ones like United, can't afford transition periods that are any longer than a season. They need to mantain their success and if Moyes is unable to do this, he won't last that long.

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Post by Soldier_Of_Fortune on Tue 28 Jan 2014, 7:31 am

Crimey wrote:I like Martinez but to suggest that he's better than Moyes was at Everton is very short-sighted I feel. He's had a very great year, and has them playing some really good football but he hasn't done anything yet to show that he's doing a lot different from Moyes. Like Olly said they've got some excellent loan signings this year, but the team is essentially the Moyes side and the key players are either loan signings who might not be there next year or Moyes' key men playing the same role as they did before.

The proof of how good both managers are will be after a period of time so both can transition from the previous manager. In Moyes' case we're looking at whether he can get out of the shadow of Ferguson and improve results, and in Martinez's whether he can improve on Moyes' squad or at least keep them at the same level when he has to build his own team.

Martinez's team plays better football the Moyes' teams. Thats a itso facto.

You only have to watch the last derby for this.


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Post by liverbnz on Tue 28 Jan 2014, 8:09 am

No evidence so far that he can hack it. Smashing all the wrong records at Manchester United dragging them from 1st to 7th in 6 months. Meanwhile the team he left behind look as good as they've been at any stage under him.

If AVB (for example) was managing Manchester United this badly, number 1 he wouldn't be in the job any longer and number 2 this poll would not be 59% in his favour.

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Post by monty junior on Tue 28 Jan 2014, 12:57 pm

A lot of that is down to AVB flopped at two clubs and only spent a couple of years in the PL whereas Moyes is proven to at the very least be a very good PL manager!

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 28 Jan 2014, 5:11 pm

AVB's teams never flopped. allways top 5.. He has had very harsh owners IMO..

Not saying he is a top manager at the highest level , but he is in a way very similar to moyes.. Proven top half manager- nothing else is yet known.

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 28 Jan 2014, 5:21 pm

Actually scrub the above out-

AVB's blushes were saved due to chelsea getting a bye into the CL and they finished 6th.

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Post by monty junior on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 12:42 am

mystiroakey wrote:AVB's teams never flopped. allways top 5.. He has had very harsh owners IMO..

Not saying he is a top manager at the highest level , but he is in a way very similar to moyes.. Proven top half manager- nothing else is yet known.

They are completely different, Moyes got Everton finishing top half on a shoe string budget for 10 years, AVB had endless money to spend in both jobs and did ok for one season at Spurs, then got sacked for taking constant hammerings and was pretty useless at Chelsea. I'm sure any half decent manager in the world could be a "proven top half manager" in the clubs AVB found himself.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 12:51 am

Neither are proven at the highest level yet. But moyes may get the chance to prove it with Uniteds record of giving Fergie a few years to bed himself in. AVB hasn't been given any sort of chance yet didn't really fail at all.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 12:59 am

Its no coincidence that the as soon as AVB was sacked from his two English clubs, they've both gone onto better things (Chelsea with the CL win and Spurs now rocketing up the league...)

Couldn't even get top four despite having the best player in the league, other teams cocking up and a seven point cushion at one stage. Poor poor manager
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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 1:02 am

Well iot depends what you mean by poor.

If we call AVB poor we could also eventually be calling Moyes poor as well. because neither are proven.. Its all about how you compare them and what you relate them two.

Off course the reality is neither are poor, and both are unproven at the highest level.


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Post by monty junior on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 1:02 am

Moyes is only 6 months in to his first really big job, AVB had two and frankly was very underwhelming in both. I would have felt sorrier for him after the Chelsea sacking if he had really got it going at Spurs but after a decent season last year he was hopeless this season, the only option in todays modern managers climate if your team spends over 100 million and gets hammered, 5-0,6-0 by it's rivals and can hardly score a goal against minnows is to give him the boot. Sherwood coming in since has shown what sort of job can be done with the players at his disposable; a guy with no previous experience.

I know you said they both aren't proven at the highest level and you are correct, Moyes has not been great so far at all, but AVB showed in his time in England he wasn't cut out for a top job in the PL, I think once Moyes get's a couple of transfer windows under his belt and get's rid of the dead wood then we will have a better idea.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 1:05 am

monty . man u was getting hammered as well and didnt lose there best player by a mile(bale) and were champions the season before.

if moyes was at a club that didn't back the manager he would have also been long gone.

I like the fact he is being given that chance. But i am not sure how any one could suggest that moyes is a high level manager and that AVB is poor

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 1:12 am

The two teams that battered Tottenham were liverpool and citeh.

If those two teams click and you are slightly off- its pretty clear what can happen.

They have battered so many teams this year- If we blame AVB we also need to blame plenty of other managers IMO.

Something was apparently wrong at Tottenham- that to me was pretty obvious.. But there was also a lot right about them statistically. They were 4th in the league at the point he got sacked. They had the most amount of shots on target and had the most amount of average possession..

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Post by monty junior on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 1:53 am

I'm sure they were behind Newcastle in 7th or 8th when he got the sack? Anyway i'm half asleep, will reply properly later.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 2:13 am

Yeah you are right Monty.

for some reason I thought Totenham were stuck around the top 5 all year.

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Post by liverbnz on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 2:13 pm

Monty - Moyes is doing a similar if not worse job than AVB at Chlesea. AVb was sacked about this far into his first season.

He also has Spus highest win% of any of their recent managers in the PL.

But let me just make one thing clear, I don't rate AVB. I think he's stubborn and inflexible. I just don't rate Moyes either. He did a good job at Everton - but that's it, jusrt good He finished 4th in one season (yet didn't qualify for the CL) which was his only real major acheivement. They then generally finished 5th-8th which is were you would expect them to finish.

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 10:24 am

I wonder how different this would have been if the poll was put up today..


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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 12:17 pm

I wonder how different it would be if you could have done an internet poll shortly after Alex Ferguson took over. Wink
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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 12:22 pm

probably 80% backing Moyes start of the season..

at the moment its 66% for.

which seems crazy as i just read a few pages from the most popular Man u forum, in which I found only a couple of posters saying we might as well keep him on till the summer due to there being no alternative. But it was a resounding 100% he isn't good enough to manage a high level team.

We know what United fans are like and that isn't a fair reflection of Moyes abilities.. But all the same.. He is out of form at the moment.

He cant keep saying that his team is playing well and they are unlucky and that there is no more he could do...

And if there is no more he can do and he believes that.. Well that tells me he doesn't even think he is good enough.


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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 12:47 pm

Funnily enough, they are vocal in support at games. There's a core of very good United fans who understand success was something brilliant, but not a given, and they have stood by the choice in the terraces, as it were

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