PR's Greatest Wallaby XV

Planet rugby has published its greatest Wallaby XV: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1933128-selecting-the-greatest-australia-xv.

The team is: 15. Matt Burke 14. Joe Roff 11. David Campese 13. Jason Little 12. Tim Horan 10. Mark Ella 9.George Gregan
8. Willie Ofahengaue 7. George Smith 6. Owen Finegan 5. John Eales 4. Nathan Sharpe 3. Ewen McKenzie 2. Phil Kearns 1. Tony Daly

I look at that team and I think there are a few unlucky omissions. Chris Latham was a gifted footballer. He had an Aussie Rules background so had a mean punt on him. I think wing could throw up a number of names as could openside flanker. Mark Ella was a legend but if you're going to pick George Gregan then I'm afraid for me it has to be his partner in crime Stephen Larkham. It's like breaking up the Horan Little centre combination. It seems wrong to do so even though a player like Stirling Mortlock deserves to be mentioned. Like Umaga and DeVilliers, he seemed to get better with age and leadership brought out the best in him. Nathan Sharpe is that kind of player and he almost single handedly it seemed carried the Aussie pack through recent tumultuous seasons but I wouldn't describe him in any shape or form anywhere near the technical terms of someone like Eales who like his nickname didn't have any apparent flaws.

Feel free to debate the merits of this selection but the purpose of this thread is not so much to debate the Greatest Wallaby XV but to debate the importance of leadership and innovation. What strikes me with this selection is that it has reminded me of the strengths of Australian sides over the years. For a country that is dominated by other sports that bear resemblance to union, they have consistently had coaches who have brought a lot of innovation to the game and they also seem to have players who bring something new to their respective positions.

Australia are often described as having powder puff forwards and flashy backs. Certainly that is how the current Wallaby side is often described. Willy O is not a player I'd describe as powder puff and certainly wouldn't say that to his face. Pocock or Smith were not big players but could withstand a lot of punishment. Just as the backs have always seemed to have reliable players like Horan, Burke, AAC, Little, Tune sprinkled in with the unpredictable and creative players like Ella, Cooper, Beale along with players who don't seem physically much but surprise with their brilliance on attack like Campese, JOC, Larkham, Gregan so too did the forwards have that mix.

Binding them all together, Australia has been blessed with many a great inspiring leader that has raised the performance of the team in general and found consistency when on paper you think they might not have deserved. They've never had monster forwards like SA, England or France and they've never had monster backs either. But knowing what they're good at and knowing how to minimise what they're not good at, coupled with an unshakable confidence in their own abilities, Australia have always been formidable opponents and yet have always been described as the 'poorest' team in the SH big 3.

Totally agree with you on Chris Latham, I reckon he is one of the best fullbacks in world rugby history.

Matt Burke doesn't come close in my opinion.

Not a bad selection, from my exposure to the Wallabies. My useless opinions:

I would certainly put Larkham at 10. For me, he was one of the best out halves I have ever seen. I think he could do everything (except for winning a beauty contest)

I like Mortlock at 13. Great player, but had that extra bloody-mindedness which changed games and is one of the hallmarks of a winner.

I also like Latham, but jeez he had a ten year career and couldn't figure out how to pull his socks up!

I think Finnegan was a good player, but not sure he was the best blindside. That will take some thought.

Michael Lynagh a bit unfortunate? He was OH and vice captain for Australia's 1991 RWC win. Ended his career as the world record points scorer?

Why doesnt he even get a mention?

Lynagh is certainly worth a shout GG. As is his partner in crime Nick Farr Jones. Definitely greats of the game and equally impossible to think apart. Must be annoying for their wives.

Burke over Latham?

Seeing those greats makes it a bit depressing how far the Aussies have fallen in the last few years. Let's hope they get back up there and challenge for the 4Ns soon.

Not sure there's anyone in the current squad (bar Genia, who hasn't been on great form) who could hold a candle to that lot.

I don't think Australia are as bad as that Cyril. They've never had great depth and in recent times they've hada horror run with injuries. When I think back to the 91 or 99 squads the players seemed to play games on end together. Nowadays with the amount of rugby it's much more difficult to build continuity. Imagine the 99 team without Eales as much as Pocock has been out or Willie O out as much as Palu.

Moore was unlucky not to make the world XV list. Players like Folau and Toomua are in their early days but they look promising for different reasons. The squad needs time together and some continuity and luck with injuries. The Lions saw them in a trough but they look to be well and truly out of that slump.

Kia,

I'm not sure we'll know how the Aussies are doing until the next 4Ns. They had a very poor 4Ns last year, were disappointing in the Lions and had a mixed Autumn series. I do agree that strength in depth (lack of) and injuries haven't helped. I guess I just always expect them to triumph in adversity and last year they weren't able to.

I'd forgotten about Moore. I was very impressed by him in the Autumn games. Great hands and pace as well as being good at the basics. Very good player.

You could see the improvement McKenzie has had in a short space of time so it will be interesting to see how much or if they continue that improvement heading into 2014 and then the WC

Is there another problem in that some of the talent they are producing (e.g. the Beales and the JOC's) show incredible promise but do seem to fup up? Is there a real issue with how these players are managed?

Folau has huge potential

Another consideration is the era of Eales or Lynagh saw two traditional regions in NSW and Queensland. The advent of Super rugby ostensibly should have improved Australia's depth. But my impression is that its fractured Australia's previous strongholds and placed stress on certain players in weaker franchises. Sometimes more is not always best.

lostinwales wrote:Is there another problem in that some of the talent they are producing (e.g. the Beales and the JOC's) show incredible promise but do seem to fup up? Is there a real issue with how these players are managed?

Folau has huge potential

Think there is just a massive "lad culture" in Australia that seems to breed bone heads. Have you heard of the latest craze? Neknomination?

Latham has to be in there. Think that team is a little over-nostalgic frankly.

Matt Burke was a simply awesome player....

Latham was one of the best players I have watched

I would have Roger Gould over Matt Burke at full back.
 
http://www.sporting-heroes.net/rugby/australia/roger-gould-3956/part-1-1980_a03129/
 
One of my earliest memories of the embodiment of that irritating ability of Australians to be frustratingly awesome at annoying times.
 
Probably still the best punter of the ball I've ever seen.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Latham was one of the best players I have watched

Just checking - Is this a comment about Latham's ability, or the breadth of your perception?

Probably both

To think the Brumbies once had Gregan, Larkham, Giteau, Mortlock and Roff all playing together in the same back line. Hell of a team!

Where's Elton Flatley?

Scrumpy wrote:Where's Elton Flatley?

Dancing?

Latham and Larkham I would have gone. Burke like could was solid without being spectacular. Probably would have gone simon poidevan over Finnegan too.A while ago but the typical hardworking no holds barred 6. Never really a joe roff fan. Pacy and reliable enough but no real x factor.I would have joc there if he were at his best...behaviour that is.

Would Ken Catchpole be in with a shout?

I'd have Latham above Burke and Gould at FB too.
Also Larkham at 10 (as much as I admire Mark Ella) and either Dave Giffin (or even Dick Thornett) in place of Nathan Sharpe alongside Eales.
Maybe Mortlock over Little too at OC.

Linebreaker wrote:I'd have Latham above Burke and Gould at FB too.
Also Larkham at 10 (as much as I admire Mark Ella) and either Dave Giffin (or even Dick Thornett) in place of Nathan Sharpe alongside Eales.
Maybe Mortlock over Little too at OC.

What about Lynagh?

I'd probably have Lynagh before Ella. Ella starred on the northern tour more than anywhere else and I don't recall him doing much versus the AB's possibly due to a shortish career where Lynagh orchestrated one to many wins for my liking.

Lynagh was exceptional too alongside Farr-Jones.

As for Ella, he won one Bledisloe Cup and was very unlucky not to make it 2/2, Taylor. Short career yes but he changed the way the game was played here and redefined the role of OH in terms of positional play, running with the ball, passing and kicking. Lynagh had exceptional skills too of course but it was Ella who pioneered that style of play and paved the way for Noddy to flourish later on.

I thought the 78 side did a lot for that as well. I thought Kenny Wright and partially Tony Melrose opened the door for Ella by their switch to League and Oz backlplay was heading that way anyway. Wright along with Phil Bennet and Brad Fittler had the best standing sidestep Ive ever seen, Wrights in 78 at Eden Park ingrained into my memory with Keith Quinn's commentary. Ella did have a good 84 series but even then I thought Campo outshone them all that tour, his near field length tries and runs incredible.

Dunno, just wasnt a keen Ella fan for some reason where normally I like the style.

Andrew Slack anyone ? Stunning leader on the 84 tour.

And I would have Lynagh and farr Jones at half back instead of gregan and larkham.

Boy they have had some quality players over the years

i have a love/hate relationship with team Australia rugby. i hate watching england playing them but love watching them play against everyone else. And that's for the same reason that i think all this debate is about their backs. they have an incredible ability to score from anywhere, especially when behind or up against it.

if australia ever had a dominant pack they would be an awesome force. as it is, the real quality, in world rugby terms, has almost always been 9 through 15. which is why there are some many more names being thrown into the ring for those positions.

also explains to me why, when Eales was the leader, and they had the best pack in Australian history, of course they were the best in the world.

Aus seem to have a plethora of hugely talented backs. we need to beware talented forwards with real leadership quality!

would just add that i think Giteau is a truly exceptional player, and in an era of a more competitive Australian team, would have pushed for several positions in this best of list.

quinsforever wrote:would just add that i think Giteau is a truly exceptional player, and in an era of a more competitive Australian team, would have pushed for several positions in this best of list.

I agree regarding gâteau, Deans ego got in the way as it did with Cooper.

I think Aussie backs are the best footballers in world rugby and this back line would be irresistible, one of the best ever.

Gregan (Genia)
Cooper (Larkham, Giteau and Lynagh)
Campese
Horan (Mortlock)
Little
Roff
Latham (Burke)

And we're eternally grateful for the NRL. What Wally Lewis, Meninga, Daley, Fittler, Inglis, Slater, Thurston, the Johns bro's and many (many) more would have brought to Union I'd hate to think. Now we have Folau, will get SBW and Marshall at the later stage of his career- all classy players at their peak...

Can't believe Mark Ella doesn't get more credit on here. I know that that the likes of Lynagh, Larkem etc were great flyhalves. But Ella was something special. he changed the way the international game was played. He played very flat and very close to the halfback. He was a bomb that sucked in opposition loose forwards and made the players outside him look exceptional. It's impossible to compare players of different eras, but the players who played with him, and coached him often rate him as the best player they ever played with or against. Quite a few of them still thought he was the best player they've ever seen nearly 20 years after he retired (early 2000's). These are greats of games advocating for him including Wally Lewis (league) and Michael O'Conner (union and league), David Campese, Simon Poidevin. I think deserves to be right up there.