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England losing silver spoons

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 03 Mar 2014, 5:11 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/feb/28/school-of-hard-knocks-documentary-six-nations

The Guardian has a table at towards the end of the article linked above. It compares the likely starting England XV against Wales with the team from the same fixture twenty years ago.

Seven of the 1994 vintage were privately educated, including most of the back line, compared with two today (Launchbury and Robshaw)

The advent of professionalism will probably be one factor. However, cricket is still a sport with a high proportion of private school pupils at the top level. On top of that, quite a few of our Olympic medal winners had private school backgrounds too.

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Post by yappysnap Mon 03 Mar 2014, 6:21 pm

And that's why we're not world champions any more.  Wink 

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Post by TrailApe Tue 04 Mar 2014, 11:32 am

And that's why we're not world champions any more.


And how often were we World Champions in the past?

I've watched rugby for a few decades now and while 2003 and the few years preceding that were brilliant, prior to that when we depended on the 'Old Boys Network' we were absolutely pants.

And what a fall from grace after 2003, it's as if that team was a one-shot weapon.

If we are to compete consistently with the best we cannot rely on the output of a few schools (as good as they are) we need a steady stream of talent to select from.

We need to have a fusion between the chinless wonders and the tatooed thugs - Tatooed Wonders.


(As long as the spelling and grammar in the tatoos are correct, who cares?)




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Post by Geordie Tue 04 Mar 2014, 3:09 pm

I think this is great to see. Open the doors to so much potential in England who arent in to playing football etc.

Also if it gives people something to chanel into and build discpline into their lives then surely thats a huge bonus to society.

Why should rugby be a private school based sport. (And i had private education)

They have been doing this in the ganglands of compton in LA in america aswell with great results. Aparently some of the abilities of the athletes there were astounding.

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Post by Jimpy Tue 04 Mar 2014, 3:18 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think this is great to see. Open the doors to so much potential in England who arent in to playing football etc.

Also if it gives people something to chanel into and build discpline into their lives then surely thats a huge bonus to society.

Why should rugby be a private school based sport. (And i had private education)

They have been doing this in the ganglands of compton in LA in america aswell with great results. Aparently some of the abilities of the athletes there were astounding.

I'm not suprised - if you're used to taking part in a robbery or shooting, you'll be used to running like mad to get away from the scene, vaulting fences and if the odd riot is your thing, throwing projectiles with a degree of accuracy...

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Post by Geordie Tue 04 Mar 2014, 3:25 pm

Laugh too right Jimpy...jumping over cars and Sh*t

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Post by lostinwales Tue 04 Mar 2014, 3:35 pm

Is it true they have expert hookers?

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Post by Geordie Tue 04 Mar 2014, 3:40 pm

Some of the best...great technique...

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Post by yappysnap Tue 04 Mar 2014, 3:56 pm

Apparently they wrote the book on the dark arts....

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Post by SecretFly Tue 04 Mar 2014, 3:59 pm

Look, the basic fact is that if you give over rugby to the 'poor people', then the class of conversation in 606 is going to go down dreadfully!

I do not want to be forced into talking about darts, greyhound racing, soaps on TV, reality shows, ITV Saturday night family entertainment, micro-wave meals or glassing my friend at the weekend because I fell out with him over a girlfriend who double crossed me on a drugs deal!!!!

I am not having none of that sort in my patch!  Rugby must remain Private, Prim, Proper and Poncey or it will die!

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Post by fa0019 Tue 04 Mar 2014, 4:00 pm

I don't necessarily think it's a good thing.

In some ways its great that the sport is reaching out to the wider public but if I had to look at the England football team (nearly exclusively all working class) to the England rugby team (upper-middle mainly) I would have to prefer the mentality of the England rugby team.

Yes football is more competitive but I'd rather be a team that bats well above its weight generally speaking compared to one that continued to fall below expectations. I've been watching both sports since the late 80s and there is certainly a level of mental weakness in the England football team/culture/sport.... the mentally strong guys such as Gary Neville, Stuart Pearce were often seen as outcasts (a lot like Roy Keane). I certainly think the boarding school mentality was rife in the England team of the late 80s/90s where they pulled off a lot of determined wins against the odds.

Its something the football players could certainly learn from.

It wasn't exclusively those from boarding schools, chaps like Jonno were like everyone else but they were never interested in publicity or their wider fame.

You see it in the rugby players in SA... most come from say 5-6 boarding schools where kids are taught to be tough.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 04 Mar 2014, 4:07 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Some of the best...great technique...

I guess that means they are great ball handlers too

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Post by lostinwales Tue 04 Mar 2014, 4:16 pm

Only very slightly more serious we do have RL which doesnt have much (if any) of a silver spoon culture at all. No signs of softness there just a touch of parochial attitudes...

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Post by Geordie Tue 04 Mar 2014, 4:35 pm

But Fa who is to say that new players from different back grounds would be trouble makers, look for celebrity etc.

Ive played rugby in the Newcastle region for many many years...based in North Shields a rough coastal town at the mouth of the tyne.

Many of my team mates for many years were rough local lads who barely even went to school let alone went to uni. Yet when we went out on the pitch they were proud team members who played it physical yet never let themselves down by their behaviour with refs or the oppositon...though dont get me wrong they were ready for anything physical, they would defend themselves and their team mates strongly and were they were strong mentally.

I think the "mental toughness" you claim comes from the Boarding school type can come from all kinds of cultures. And i belive its the sport not the people that keep them disciplined.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 04 Mar 2014, 4:46 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Fa who is to say that new players from different back grounds would be trouble makers, look for celebrity etc.

Ive played rugby in the Newcastle region for many many years...based in North Shields a rough coastal town at the mouth of the tyne.

Many of my team mates for many years were rough local lads who barely even went to school let alone went to uni. Yet when we went out on the pitch they were proud team members who played it physical yet never let themselves down by their behaviour with refs or the oppositon...though dont get me wrong they were ready for anything physical and were strong mentally.

I think the "mental toughness" you claim comes from the Boarding school type can come from all kinds of cultures. And i belive its the sport not the people that keep them disciplined.

I agree in part Geordie. I didn't attend boarding school or private school myself but when we played those schools I always admired their confidence and their self-belief. Seeing that also in the wider context of working life I've always believed on the rugby field it has done more good than harm.

My own view is that the standards which the sport promotes takes that sort of discipline and toughness which filters down. Take the average fan and I assume he will be schooled in the local high school etc like the rest of us. When I first started playing as a junior most of us also still played football on Saturdays, rugby on Sundays... you could see the change in culture on the pitch as players learnt a discipline and respect you never saw taught in football. So I think you are right in saying its the sport which promotes the culture... but I additionally believe the sport's culture owes its roots to its own background.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 04 Mar 2014, 5:45 pm

I don't think private education fosters a harder, winning sporting mentality. English cricket and rugby teams have delivered a whole range of performance levels through the years, from dominating to hapless, so you can't generalize.



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Post by Scratch Tue 04 Mar 2014, 6:49 pm

Not many private schools in Samoa are there?

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 04 Mar 2014, 7:11 pm

Scratch wrote:Not many private schools in Samoa are there?

We aren't talking about other countries so that doesn't come into it.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 04 Mar 2014, 10:38 pm

Poor old Tobias Albert Gerald Lieven Flood, undone by the reverse snobbery of a league loving northern coaching staff.

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Post by ultra Wed 05 Mar 2014, 12:21 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Fa who is to say that new players from different back grounds would be trouble makers, look for celebrity etc.

Ive played rugby in the Newcastle region for many many years...based in North Shields a rough coastal town at the mouth of the tyne.

Many of my team mates for many years were rough local lads who barely even went to school let alone went to uni. Yet when we went out on the pitch they were proud team members who played it physical yet never let themselves down by their behaviour with refs or the oppositon...though dont get me wrong they were ready for anything physical, they would defend themselves and their team mates strongly and were they were strong mentally.

I think the "mental toughness" you claim comes from the Boarding school type can come from all kinds of cultures. And i belive its the sport not the people that keep them disciplined.
Hahaha.....played against north shields many a time in the old days, mental toughness??   they couldn't give a shoot about the cerebral in them there parts...There's an old saying, something along the lines of wars were won on the playing fields of eton. Utter bollox, wars were almost alwyas won by the countless millions of working folks from the pits, the mills, the fields who would walk face first into bullets. The fact some well heeled chap told them to do it doesn't matter! Get these tough, rough hard working class kids mashing it up at rugby and we've got the best team in the world. I strongly and whole heartedly believe this and will come round to your house and smash your face in if you disagree!!!!

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Post by fa0019 Wed 05 Mar 2014, 9:01 am

ultra wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:But Fa who is to say that new players from different back grounds would be trouble makers, look for celebrity etc.

Ive played rugby in the Newcastle region for many many years...based in North Shields a rough coastal town at the mouth of the tyne.

Many of my team mates for many years were rough local lads who barely even went to school let alone went to uni. Yet when we went out on the pitch they were proud team members who played it physical yet never let themselves down by their behaviour with refs or the oppositon...though dont get me wrong they were ready for anything physical, they would defend themselves and their team mates strongly and were they were strong mentally.

I think the "mental toughness" you claim comes from the Boarding school type can come from all kinds of cultures. And i belive its the sport not the people that keep them disciplined.
Hahaha.....played against north shields many a time in the old days, mental toughness??   they couldn't give a shoot about the cerebral in them there parts...There's an old saying, something along the lines of wars were won on the playing fields of eton. Utter bollox, wars were almost alwyas won by the countless millions of working folks from the pits, the mills, the fields who would walk face first into bullets. The fact some well heeled chap told them to do it doesn't matter! Get these tough, rough hard working class kids mashing it up at rugby and we've got the best team in the world. I strongly and whole heartedly believe this and will come round to your house and smash your face in if you disagree!!!!

If thats the case... given thats where all the UK's footballers come from.... how come they have the collective mental strength of a 2 year old alone next to a jar of sweets that they have been told they cannot eat???

Ability has never been a problem for UK international football teams especially the English.

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Post by Geordie Wed 05 Mar 2014, 9:09 am

Because football has its own culture and that breeds the behaviour you see. Rugby as i said above has its own culture and regardless of your culture you learn to control your behaviour...i have seen that first hand.

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Post by mr_stonelea Wed 05 Mar 2014, 9:47 am

In edwardian times, most public schools played football. ..it was the first world war that changed things. The rfu (and Scottish welsh unions) suspended all fixtures in the outbreak of war, gave the grounds to the military and encouraged all rugby players to sign up to the army.

The FA on the other hand did nothing. Football carried on. So while rugby players were fighting in France, questions were asked in parliament about why 40000 men were watching man United play on a Saturday afternoon when we were desperately short of soldiers. Football was nicknamed shirker ball by the press.

Of course with conscription in 1915, football fixtures were eventually suspended.

But the damage had been done. Following the war, every public school chose rugby as its primary sport. It was seen as the perfect way to build the character of young men. Therefore rugby became the sport of public schools.

Just thought I would share that.

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Post by TrailApe Wed 05 Mar 2014, 12:25 pm

Because football has its own culture and that breeds the behaviour you see. Rugby as i said above has its own culture and regardless of your culture you learn to control your behaviour...i have seen that first hand

I agree with this, the footie players act like spoilt kids because the system encourages them to, if FIFA began to clamp down on the abuse of officials and ensured that the diving and other histrionics were punished by introduction of the sin bin the 'beautiful game' might live up to its name.

So Geordie-F was a Shields player, I used to play for Seghill, who did you use to turn out for Ultra?

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Post by Geordie Wed 05 Mar 2014, 12:35 pm

SHields.... Shocked Erm 

No mate im posh im a Percy park lad... Wink

Had some nice physical battles with Seghill a few times.

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Wed 05 Mar 2014, 12:41 pm

I'm more surprised by those stats for 1994. Only 7 were privately schooled. So the majority of the team weren't which is the same today as it was back then.

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Post by TrailApe Wed 05 Mar 2014, 1:28 pm

 Percy Park eh?

Apologies for associating you with those Blue and white hooped hooligans, you are one of those black and white hooped hooligans.

As for physical battles, not Seghill, we - as you well know, you naughty man - are noted for our flair and panache and silky backs orientated skills.

Whistle

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Post by Geordie Wed 05 Mar 2014, 1:49 pm

Yes i am indeed one of those...

Yes, Seghill were always known as the Rolls Royce of Northumbria...to Blyths Robin Reliant.... Wink 

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