Saracens vs Harlequins - AP semi final - Saturday

1st vs 4th

The two London clubs of Saracens and Harlequins face off in an interesting derby. Saracens finished on top of the AP pile with a record breaking 87 points. Quins have been building up some decent momentum in the last few weeks with 5 wins in the row.

Key match ups:

Brits vs Ward - the all action South African vs one of the finds of the AP this season

Burger vs Robshaw - the Namibian warrior vs the England captain

Billy Vunipola vs Easter - raw power and youth vs the brain power and experience of Easter

Farrell vs Evans - controlling the game will of course be key.

Goode vs Brown - two of the best full backs in the AP go head to head. Brown has got all the headlines for his all action style - can't leave out his 6 nations which was masteful but Goode has been very influential for Saracens this season - steering Saracens to away wins over Exeter and Bath at 10, one of the best goal kickers this season, causing defensive problems for opposition.


Saracens team to face Harlequins;
15. Alex Goode;
14. Chris Ashton,
13. Marcelo Bosch,
12. Brad Barritt,
11. David Strettle;
10. Owen Farrell,
9. Neil de Kock;

1. Mako Vunipola,
2. Schalk Brits,
3. Matt Stevens,
4. Steve Borthwick ©,
5. Mouritz Botha,
6. Kelly Brown,
7. Jacques Burger,
8. Billy Vunipola.

Replacements:
16. Jamie George,
17. Richard Barrington,
18. James Johnston,
19. Alistair Hargreaves,
20. Jackson Wray,
21. Richard Wigglesworth,
22. Charlie Hodgson,
23. Chris Wyles.




Harlequins team
15. Mike Brown
14. Tom Williams
13. Tim Molenaar
12. Jordan Turner-Hall
11. Ugo Monye
10. Nick Evans
9. Danny Care

1. Joe Marler
2. Dave Ward
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Charlie Matthews
5. George Robson
6. Luke Wallace
7. Chris Robshaw (C)
8. Nick Easter

16. Rob Buchanan
17. Mark Lambert
18. Will Collier
19. Nick Kennedy
20. Tom Guest
21. Karl Dickson
22. Ben Botica
23. Sam Smith

Thoughts?

The interesting thing is the front and back rows.

Quins has the better front row...whilst Sarries back row is better. (only in my opinion of course)

The biggest difference though is the quality on the bench.

Sarries will make the final.

You think Quins have the better frontrow? Brits and Mako are two of the best frontrowers with ball in hand in the AP. Their workrate is also huge, Mako makes a surprisingly high amount of tackles. Scrummaging wise they are a bit suspect but if they make yardage with ball in hand I don't mind.

Still remember Mako bullocking run to set the tone last year when he played them at Allianz Park.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEK43Rjjd28

Yeah i do think that.

Its not just about running with the ball beshocked.
I like my front rowers to be able to scrum.
In my opinion...Marler is a better LH than Mako. . Marler is a better scrummager than Mako...and i also think hes better close in , in rucks etc.
Brits probably does take the hooker spot but Ward has been impressive...especially at the breakdown etc.
Then Sinkler is far better than Stevens as far as TH is concerned.

So yes i do think they have a better front row.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah i do think that.

Its not just about running with the ball beshocked.
I like my front rowers to be able to scrum.
In my opinion...Marler is a better LH than Mako. . Marler is a better scrummager than Mako...and i also think hes better close in , in rucks etc.
Brits probably does take the hooker spot but Ward has been impressive...especially at the breakdown etc.
Then Sinkler is far better than Stevens as far as TH is concerned.

So yes i do think they have a better front row.

I tend to agree. Its pretty close though. Quins are the most likely team in the top four right now to beat Saracens I think.

Brits, methinks, is a wild card.  He pops up everywhere and does a bit of everything.  Leaps ahead of Ward.  But I agree the Quins props have an edge over the Sarries props.  But, as we know, the push in the scrum is not only about the props.  This one could be a nail-biter.

But, as we know, the push in the scrum is not only about the props

Ah Dr Grey, my pet subject   

I totally agree that the second rows in particular are a HUGE part of the scrum, and this is where its even for me. Both the second row combos on show in this game are good club players not much more.

Robson v Borthwick : Whilst Borthwick is a top class lineout jumper both dont offer much else where.

MAtthews v Botha: Matthews is a big lump who isnt yet showing his potential (but could be VERY good)and Botha is a keen as mud tryer who'll put his head where it hurts but with limited ability.

Its actually ironic that for two very impressive clubs they both have such average Second Row combos. Again just my opinon.

Though i think once Sarries get Kruis and Itoje up and running it'll be a different kettle of fish.

If Sarries bring the same oppressive defence as they did vs Clermont then only a magical performance from Quins will do.

Very true Sam...and thats why i think Sarries will win the whole thing.

Well, lets face it, it will be a travesty if they don't given their dominance over the course of a season. Of course, I'll be just as pleased to see Tigers lift the trophy, because they deserve it more. Obviously ;-)

I hope Saracens win it because they have the most English qualified players........ Naaaaaaat!!!!

Lol!!!!!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

But, as we know, the push in the scrum is not only about the props

Ah Dr Grey, my pet subject   

I totally agree that the second rows in particular are a HUGE part of the scrum, and this is where its even for me. Both the second row combos on show in this game are good club players not much more.

Robson v Borthwick : Whilst Borthwick is a top class lineout jumper both dont offer much else where.

MAtthews v Botha: Matthews is a big lump who isnt yet showing his potential (but could be VERY good)and Botha is a keen as mud tryer who'll put his head where it hurts but with limited ability.

Its actually ironic that for two very impressive clubs they both have such average Second Row combos. Again just my opinon.

Though i think once Sarries get Kruis and Itoje up and running it'll be a different kettle of fish.

Agree with you about Kruis and Itoje, but I think you're a bit harsh on Matthews there. He had a slow start to the season (he was out with injury for the first 10 weeks or so) but has become increasingly influential - he's worked out how to carry his body in the loose and it's beginning to pay off. I'd also argue that he's the most talented in the air of all those 4 (Borthwick is a better lineout caller, but he doesn't have the reach or athleticism).

When they met at Wembley, Quins lost the first scrum but thereafter Sinckler was giving Mako all sorts of trouble as I recall. On the astro, I suspect it will be quite evenly matched as Sarries can get their power on, but the game will come down to how Mr Barnes views the breakdown and whether Quins can stay cool in the face of a Sarries onslaught.

Geordiefalcon I normally agree with you but can't believe how much criticism you are giving of the Saracens front five. You would think from your description that they are all rubbish.

Mako offers so much more around the field than Marler. Not just a better carrier but he makes more tackles and turnovers. Against Clermont I believe he made 15.

As for Stevens - he's played 39 times for England. I don't think he's as bad as made out.

Borthwick - former England captain and over 50 caps for England. He is far more influential than Robson. He's not just some average 2nd row as you call him.

Strange that people actually think Quins have a superior front five. Odd that the side top of the AP is so underrated.

Jimpy why are Quins the most likely to beat us? They are a team capable of winning sure - but they are playing away from home against a team they struggle against.

Quins need to get quick ball at the breakdown and I expect against this Saracens backrow they will struggle there.

'shocked, Saracens are highly rated for a lot of things, but their defensive system and pressure at the breakdown are their best weapons. Their lineout is good, as you would expect with Borthwick calling, but the scrum is not your strongest point.

Mako is a better carrier than Marler but it's very one-eyed to say he offers "so much more". He is better in the loose but not so much that it nullifies Marler's growing abiility in the scrum. And Mako did struggle against Sinckler (who admittedly is a very quick learner and exceptionally strong but he is also still a kid in his first season).

Sarries should have the edge in the lineout unless Ward's throwing is very much on song. Quins may be able to get a significant advantage in the scrum unless Mako has learned to counter whatever it was that Sinckler did to prise his hips out from his hooker (at one point he was asking the flankers to pull him back in).

The game will be decided on the breakdown; specifically on how far Mr Barnes allows Sarries to go in slowing the ball down, and in the tackle, specifically in whether Quins can find a way to nullify Sarries' line speed (and maintain their own).

I agree our scrum isn't our strongest point but it doesn't mean that our frontrow as an unit is weak.

I don't feel that Marler can make the same impact outside the scrum than Mako. I personally prefer what Mako offers than Marler but that's perhaps just bias.

Frontrow's job is no longer just about scrummaging.

As for the scrum - I don't expect it to be as important as the breakdown or lineout.

To be honest I think Quins need to make sure they keep the error count low - on too many occasions Quins have made stupid handling errors that have allowed Saracens easy points. Sometimes I feel that Quins tries to force things too much against us.

Last example of that was the needless pass by Evans near the Quins try line for an easy interception for Farrell at Wembley just before half time.

As a neutral Mako and Marler offer different things outside of the scrum. I would be happy with either and preferring neither over the other in that regard. But I'd go with Marler for scrummaging (but Marler has a year on him).

I do hope the game is a tight one, but a can see Saracens winning at a canter

Ah beshocked mate, I back sarries to win the whole thing. I'm not doubting that.

I always give sarries their due. I criticized Farrell and Ashton and others at various times and rightly so...but I have also defended them.

I don't think their front five are the best individually. As a unit and as a team they are hugely impressive. But aside from borthwicks lineout I don't rate your second row combo. I would list quite a few teams above them and as I said above once Kruis and Itoje start owning those shirts they will be a fearsome prospect.

I also think you can find a much better TH than Stevens.He may numerous caps but that doesn't mean he is the best, you will probably improve that in the summer.

Mako v Marler is in the eye of the beholder. I personally think marler is a better LH others will disagree. I think his close in work is fantastic...as is Makos.

I like what Sarries are doing...and totally respect them as I do tiger's and saints.

But please accept the criticism I give along with the praise which is just ny meaningless opinion.

My Falcons have been utterly woeful and have been rightly slated, yet few will acknowledge the one or two shining lights like Vickers at LH or Barrow or Mark Wilson in the back row or in particular Alex Tait at FB who has been outstanding this season.

Is there another Premiership game today?
I thought the apex of the season was last night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL5BZtdumcw

Song of the rest of the season for me.
No freakin' idea why.

doctor_grey wrote:Is there another Premiership game today?
I thought the apex of the season was last night.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL5BZtdumcw

Song of the rest of the season for me.
No freakin' idea why.

It was for Saints

HammerofThunor wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Is there another Premiership game today?
I thought the apex of the season was last night.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL5BZtdumcw

Song of the rest of the season for me.
No freakin' idea why.

It was for Saints

it was for me.

Here's hoping for a great one today.

If it's anywhere near as good as yesterday I'll be happy. BTW I was predicting a Leicester win so that's 2 for 2 now. You'll definitely lose the final

Thanks for that............

Baby duty meant I watched yesterday with the volume turned down. Not one of the best matches for that experience, given the heavy use of TMO. Will be good to have the crowd, ref and commentary back for today.

I've watched three matches this weekend and all have featured a red card. They were all good entertainment but I hope both teams keep 15 on the pitch today.

Really looking forward to this as a neutral, unlike yesterdays which was a great game but terrible for the ticker. Here's hoping for another cracker. Head says Saracens but heart saying Quins.

It's faintly nauseating to hear and read so many journalists say how well-loved Steve Borthwick is, as if they personally played no part in hounding him out of the England team.

My internet has fallen over so just run to the nearest pub...go on the quins

Did I miss anything first 10?

quinsforever wrote:My internet has fallen over so just run to the nearest pub...go on the quins

Did I miss anything first 10?

Care might have taken a knock on his ankle we'll see how that affects him.

Did you see the TMO review of the tip tackle?

Good call on the tackle. Looked ugly but not dangerous and no need to ruin this game with a soft card

Well it was dangerous but largely (entirely?) caused by Sinckler jumping.

Edit: Sinckler is a beast but he needs to get his head straight. Young guy so hopefully he'll mature a bit.

Edit2: I really dislike Dawson as commentator. He's like a mix between Barnes and Robson

Link?

Bad miss kick by Evans

Sarries struggling w pace of our attack. Feeling pressure and making silly errors.

HammerofThunor wrote:Edit2: I really dislike Dawson as commentator. He's like a mix between Barnes and Robson

Agree, he's terrible. Unlike some don't mind Lol & Healey but wish they would use Flatman instead of Dawson. None are as good as Ben Kay though, best commentator in rugby by a mile.

Wow. Great try sarries. Hugely clinical with only 13 men

Is there a single neutral who wants Sarries to win? The Man City of rugby. Come on Quins.

I dunno. I am a Chris Wyles fan.

Good game so far, Mike Brown is a superstar of the world game that is for sure.

I want quins to win. But I like sarries too. Love their aggressive defence.

Both kickers feeling the pressure obviously. Is a bit of a worry for England - Farrell occasionally doesn't show up in really tense games. Makes me convinced we need a real backup kicker option. A giteau to Toulons wilkinson for example.

To be honest I normally want Quins to win generally but in this game I wouldn't mind Saracens. I really like them as a team. It's only the upper management (above McCall and Venter) who I don't like. They play a good game. The main reason I still want Quins to win is because the Saracens are still in Europe.

Just like the game last night, both teams giving all they have. Mike Brown just get's better and better every game.

Mike brown is a sarries nightmare. No-one in his position makes more line breaks, and against sarries aggressive rush defense he can really open up the game. Puts big pressure on the open field kicking game.

Saracens kicking could really cost them. Sucks momentum out of the team.

How was barritt not tackled?

And how was that a pen for Farrell who wasn't even chasing?

Quins just about hanging in there. If they win this it'll be impressive.

quinsforever wrote:How was barritt not tackled?

And how was that a pen for Farrell who wasn't even chasing?

He was tackled, but not held.

Wallace ran in front of Farrell and took him out.

Quins had the right kind of challenge to trouble Saracens but might just be too knackered to see it through.

Uh-oh, is that Mike Brown gone...

I obviously don't understand d the tackle rule. Barritt went down and then someone else flopped on top of him and had down ward pressure while barritt was on the floor. I though downward pressure while knees were in contact with the ground was all it required. I obviously wrong as they reviewed it. But why?

Well won Sarries, the better team overall today. Could have been different but Sarries had much more in the tank in the second half and once they were ahead it was too big an ask. Gutted, but proud to have ever gotten to this SF and up by 6 against the odds at Halftime... Just have to have the boys beat NZ without Saints and Sarries now



So much better than the 7th we looked like finishing at one point though

Quins were just knackered in the second half. The game against Bath compared with the weakened side Sarries sent to Leicester?

HammerofThunor wrote:Quins were just knackered in the second half. The game against Bath compared with the weakened side Sarries sent to Leicester?

Smaller squad, worse bench, fighting for our lives fopr weeks esp last match and more injuries all not helping but in the end Sarries were too good. Good luck to both sides in the Final and Sarries against Toulon.

I do hope that when Mike Brown was taken off, it was only for (Cramp) and nothing more.

Any body heared iif it was cramp?

Or was it an Ham string injurie?