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Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June

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Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June Empty Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June

Post by George Carlin Sun 15 Jun 2014, 9:53 am

Argentina Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June 502010 v ScotlandScotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June Gaah10  
20 June 2014, KO: 16:10 ART (20:10 BST)
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba
 
Live on Sky Sports 3
 
Referee: John Lacey (Ire)
Assistant referees: Pascal Gauzère (Fra), Lourens van der Merwe (SA)
TMO: Deon van Blommenstein (SA)
 
A. Teams:
 
I. Argentina
Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June Pope_f10
1- Bruno Postiglioni (La Plata)
2- Julián Montoya (Newman)
3- Matías Díaz (Highlanders)
4- Manuel Carizza (Stormers)
5- Matías Alemanno (Tablada)
6- Rodrigo Báez (Liceo)
7- Javier Ortega Desio (Parana)
8- Tomás De la Vega (CUBA)

9- Tomás Cubelli (capitán) (Belgrano)
10- Nicolás Sánchez (Bordeaux Begles)
11- Manuel Montero (Pucurá)
12- Santiago González Iglesias (Alumni)
13- Matías Orlando (Huirapuca)
14- Santiago Cordero (Regatas)
15- Lucas González Amorosino (Oyonnax)

16- Santiago Iglesias Valdez (Uni Tucumán)
17- Lucas Noguera Paz (Lince RC)
18- Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro (NG Dragons)
19- Tomás Lavanini (La Plata)
20- Antonio Ahualli de Chazal (Uni Tucumán)
21- Martín Landajo (C.A.S.I.)
22- Matías Moroni (CUBA)
23- Joaquín Tuculet (Bordeaux Begles)

II. Scotland
Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June Im_jol10
15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 22 caps, 5 tries, 1 penalty, 28 points
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 11 caps, 1 try, 5 points
13 Nick De Luca (Biarritz) 41 caps, 1 try, 5 points
12 Peter Horne (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) 8 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
 
10 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 13 caps, 1 try, 3 conversions, 1 penalty, 1 drop-goal, 17 points
9 Grayson Hart (Edinburgh Rugby) 1 cap
 
1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby) 34 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 75 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Geoff Cross (London Irish) 30 caps, 1 try, 5 points
4 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps
5 Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) 6 caps, 1 try, 5 points CAPTAIN
6 Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps, 1 try, 5 points
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish) 2 caps
8 Kieran Low (London Irish) 3 caps
 
16 Pat MacArthur (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
18 Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) 7 caps
20 Chris Fusaro (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 10 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Tom Heathcote (Edinburgh Rugby) 3 caps
23 Dougie Fife (Edinburgh Rugby) 1 cap
 
B. Numbers - head to head:
 
13 Played 13
9 Won 4
4 Lost 9
247 Points 218
 
C. Results
 
25 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
13 – 12 to Argentina
2011 Rugby World Cup
 
19 June 2010
Estadio José María Minella, Mar del Plata
9 – 13 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina
 
12 June 2010
Estadio José Fierro, Tucumán
16 – 24 to Scotland
2010 Scottish tour of Argentina
 
28 November 2009
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 9 to Argentina
 
2009 Autumn International
14 June 2008
Vélez Sársfield, Buenos Aires
14 – 26 to Scotland
 
2008 Scottish tour of Argentina
7 June 2008
Gigante de Arroyito, Rosario
21 – 15 to Argentina
 
7 October 2007
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
19 – 13 to Argentina
2007 Rugby World Cup
 
12 November 2005
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
19 – 23 to Argentina
2005 Autumn International
 
18 November 2001
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
16 – 25 to Argentina
 
21 August 1999
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
22 – 31 to Argentina
 
11 June 1994
Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry, Buenos Aires
19 – 17 to Argentina
 
4 June 1994
Estadio Ricardo Etcheverry, Buenos Aires
16 – 15 to Argentina
 
10 November 1990
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
49 – 3 to Scotland


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 19 Jun 2014, 8:38 pm; edited 13 times in total
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Post by RDW Sun 15 Jun 2014, 9:59 am

Dunbar has been replaced by messiah.

Given that it turns out Kelly Brown was meant to go to Argentina even though he wasn't listed in the squad, I wonder how many others are? I'd like to see more of Blair Cowan, especially in a balanced back row of Harley and Denton.

Also a big chance for Ford and McArthur - Lawson had a poor tour.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 15 Jun 2014, 11:21 am

Hi guys, its been a loooong time but I'm back! Needed somewhere to cry about that awful game against Canada. Looking forward though, firstly Laidlaw isn't in the squad (issue one resolved) and the form Glasgow players are in. I don't think we'll win but we'll challenge for sure! I'd like to see meatball and messiah linking up against Argentina. We need creativity against their grating defence if we want to stand a chance. Weir would provide the stabilisers, Bennett would create the holes. Time to end the Johnson selection farce!

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Post by RDW Sun 15 Jun 2014, 11:31 am

Welcome back!  Hug 

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Post by George Carlin Sun 15 Jun 2014, 12:07 pm

Where have you been NB? You never call, you never write, I was thinking it was over between you and all of us... Cry
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Post by RDW Sun 15 Jun 2014, 12:17 pm

Just had a thought - whose going to captain the squad with KB, Cusiter and Laidlaw missing?

It's a pretty young squad thinking about it - Ross Ford??  Shocked 

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 15 Jun 2014, 12:26 pm

I hope not! I have no idea. Perhaps my worst nightmare will be realised and theyll bring back Laidlaw. At 10.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun 15 Jun 2014, 12:29 pm

And Mauro bergamasco will find a get out clause from Italy to live his unfulfilled dream of playing scrum half for Scotland from his ancestors on his great grandmother's side

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Post by RDW Sun 15 Jun 2014, 12:38 pm

Well given that our team for Argentina will be something along the lines of

Dickinson
Ford
Welsh
Swinson
Gray jnr
Harley
Fusaro
Denton

Hart
Weir
Seymour
Horne
Bennett
Maitland (i thought he was going home?)
Hogg

That's an incredibly inexperienced team, with Ford the only real candidate!

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Post by George Carlin Sun 15 Jun 2014, 12:55 pm

Hmm. What's the best 23 we can get from this lot, then?:

01. Reid
02. Ford
03. Welsh
04. Swinson
05. Gray
06. Harley
07. Fusaro
08. Denton

09. Hart
10. Heathcote
11. Seymour
12. Horne
13. Bennett
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

16. Dickinson
17. MacArthur
18. Cross 
19. Gilchrist
20. [Are we a loose forward short now? Where's Richie Vernon when you need him?]
21. Pyrgos
22. Weir
23. Fife/Murchie

I feel sick at the prospect of that lot looking the Springboks squarely in the navel.

And will Whispering Ross really be captain? JC on a bike.  picard


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Post by RDW Sun 15 Jun 2014, 1:58 pm

Looks like swinson will have to be our backup backrower  Shocked 

We're one more back row injury away from being in real trouble!

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Post by George Carlin Sun 15 Jun 2014, 2:02 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Looks like swinson will have to be our backup backrower  Shocked 

We're one more back row injury away from being in real trouble!
Absolutely. And to think that people are sniffy about Josh Strauss dropping into the squad.
I would give FES' vintage Patek collection to have him as an option right now.
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Post by GLove39 Sun 15 Jun 2014, 2:16 pm

Hmmm, the inept way the team has played this year and in the last few games in particular I'm really swithering over whether or not I should renew my season pass?
Did anyone else on have one for last year?

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Sun 15 Jun 2014, 2:41 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Looks like swinson will have to be our backup backrower  Shocked 

We're one more back row injury away from being in real trouble!

Total shambles of a tour. Split squads, games outside the IRB window, all at the end of a long hard season.

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Post by George Carlin Sun 15 Jun 2014, 3:32 pm

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Looks like swinson will have to be our backup backrower  Shocked 

We're one more back row injury away from being in real trouble!

Total shambles of a tour. Split squads, games outside the IRB window, all at the end of a long hard season.

Agreed. We should have left it alone after the USA and Canada matches.

Maybe playing the Pumas was worth it, I guess, but it's lunacy to line-up a manshaming against the most physical pack in the world right at the end.
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Post by demosthenes Sun 15 Jun 2014, 3:33 pm

Captain? Ford, Gray, or Denton.

And the youngest is the best option.

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Post by BigGee Sun 15 Jun 2014, 4:01 pm

demosthenes wrote:Captain?  Ford, Gray, or Denton.

And the youngest is the best option.

Definitely go with Gray, he is the captain of the future and the experience will do him good. Ford was a terrible captain when he was given the chance, he is just not talkative enough.

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Post by BigGee Sun 15 Jun 2014, 4:04 pm

I think we can only hope that these players will have benefitted from the rest they have had. Cotter made the point that the last lot were just running on fumes at the end of a long season. That does not entirely excuse that last performance but we might see if it was a factor if this new lot manage to raise the game. I would be happy with that whatever the result!

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun 15 Jun 2014, 4:57 pm

It doesn't excuse the last performance in the slightest in my book, there seems to be a new excuse after every match at the moment with nobody willing to come out and just admit we aren't a very good international rugby team right now.

I still believe that with the potential within the current group of players and the head coach now in place that things will improve significantly, but we can't pretend that the way the side is playing at the moment in spite of the best pool of talent we've had in years is just unacceptable.

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Post by RDW Sun 15 Jun 2014, 5:47 pm

Been announced that Low, Low, Cowan and cross will all travel on to Argentina, which helps our injury situation somewhat (although I'm yet to be impressed by Kieran Low)

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Post by alive555 Sun 15 Jun 2014, 6:06 pm

these are the current rankings

1(1) NEW ZEALAND 93.81
2(2) SOUTH AFRICA 89.34
3(3) AUSTRALIA 86.91
4(4) ENGLAND 85.68
5(5) IRELAND 82.86
6(6) WALES 80.70
7(7) FRANCE 80.04
8(10) SCOTLAND 75.92
9(8) ARGENTINA 75.71
10(9) SAMOA 75.27

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Post by Captain_Sensible Sun 15 Jun 2014, 6:37 pm

Bennett isn't with the squad, he's back in Scotland now. What a waste of his time. Who plays 13 now?

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Post by RDW Sun 15 Jun 2014, 7:01 pm

That's a ridiculous call. Leaves Horne as the only centre, with Hogg the only other player that can really play there!

I see the 7a pre season training starts tomorrow so they must all be back for that.

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Post by BigGee Sun 15 Jun 2014, 7:03 pm

Captain_Sensible wrote:Bennett isn't with the squad, he's back in Scotland now. What a waste of his time. Who plays 13 now?

That has been a waste of his time and a waste of an opportunity. Lamont played well but is not the longer term answer.

Has Dunbar travelled then, if he is not there then that really only leaves Hoggy to play 13 and he really would be better playing 15. All will be revealed I guess!

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Post by RDW Sun 15 Jun 2014, 7:07 pm

Dunbar is listed in the squad - thought he was injured?

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Sun 15 Jun 2014, 7:12 pm

BigGee wrote:I think we can only hope that these players will have benefitted from the rest they have had. Cotter made the point that the last lot were just running on fumes at the end of a long season. That does not entirely excuse that last performance but we might see if it was a factor if this new lot manage to raise the game. I would be happy with that whatever the result!

Possibly true about being burned our, but for me there's always an excuse. No doubt if we struggle next week it will be because the new lot have not played for x amount of weeks.

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Sun 15 Jun 2014, 7:20 pm

Unless I'm mistaken, this looks like a different squad to the NH one? That would tally with the rumours that I'd heard OK

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Post by RDW Sun 15 Jun 2014, 7:25 pm

Scotland team saying on Twitter that Horne isn't the only centre and the full squad will be announced tomorrow - I'm assuming that means Dunbar is fit!

Very important he stays fit cause we're screwed in the backs of he's not.

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Sun 15 Jun 2014, 7:27 pm

We might be screwed anyhew, as Horne certainly didn't look up to much, and has nowhere near recovered his pre-injury form

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Post by George Carlin Sun 15 Jun 2014, 7:38 pm

Another dose of common sense from Mike Blair:
Sinclair red against Scotland a dangerous precedent
By Mike Blair


International rugby is a game of small margins and Scotland's win over Canada could have gone either way.

The main talking point will be the decision by referee Mike Fraser to show a red card to Canadian back-row Jebb Sinclair for 'leading with the elbow' with five minutes left to play.

Being reduced to 14 men was bad enough but in the process Canada lost the penalty in front of the posts which, if successfully converted, would have put them ahead.

For me, it wasn't even a penalty against Sinclair and decisions like these set a dangerous precedent.

I've seen Clermont winger Napoli Nalaga yellow-carded for 'leading with the knee' when carrying the ball. Could Sean Lamont have been put to the television match official for the lead up to the Taylor Paris head knock? In my opinion that would have been absurd but a referee has to be consistent.

I suggested last week that Scotland had to place a heavy emphasis on kick-off receipt and the ensuing exit strategy out of their half.

Word from within the camp was that it had been a focus of training leading up to the second Test of the tour, it's a big part of the game. "Points on the board only count once you get out of your half," an old school teacher used to say.

Unfortunately, it was an area that Scotland struggled in; over-complicating sometimes, not protecting the catcher other times but also - credit to the Canadians - mistakes were made on the back of an extremely effective high and long drop out by Ciaran Hearn and a persistent, high-intensity chase.

Too often Scotland handed over possession or field position straight after scoring points. For Scotland to progress they need to decide what works for them - who kicks, when they kick and where they kick - and then execute.

Execution was an issue throughout the game. You can do all the attacking shape work you want during the week, but if you cannot execute the basic skills to a high enough level then there is almost no point.

Scotland seemed to want to test the Canadian wide defence but, with respect to Lamont who carried very effectively and Sean Maitland, they are not ball players and as second receivers you would want Stuart Hogg and Peter Horne stepping up.

If you took an aerial snapshot of the wide attack shape it would look good but allocation of the right player to the right role was imprecise.

Defensively, again, if you take the aerial snapshot the structure was not too bad but consistent line speed and tackle completion were not where they should have been.

Scotland defence coach Matt Taylor, who has done such a great job with Glasgow Warriors, only had Moray Low who he's regularly worked with. He will certainly look for improvement when some more familiar Warriors faces appear for the second half of the tour.

Canada were exciting to watch. They showed the benefits of skill development on the IRB Sevens World Series, with five of their starting team involved in their core sevens squad this year.

There was unpredictability, ambition and no shortage of skill. Jeff Hassler's try was an example of execution more associated with that of the All Blacks.

Blair Cowan made a very positive impact when he replaced Alasdair Strokosch for the Scots. He was aggressive in the contact and quick over ball, producing a turnover with his first involvement and was a constant nuisance at the break down.

There is no doubt at all in my mind that Finn Russell has the necessary attributes to wear the Scotland number 10 jersey for many years but he is in a position where he is learning his trade in the international arena and mistakes will be made, as they were in Toronto.

Former Scotland head coach Frank Hadden said that he believed 50 professional games were generally required before launching players into the international environment. Russell has barely a third of that with Glasgow so his learning curve will have to accelerate quickly to consistently meet the demands of Test rugby.

So it's two from two with this group of players. A winning habit is being created, which shouldn't be underestimated. There will be plenty on Vern Cotter's mind though with basic skill execution being at the forefront of his thoughts.
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Post by funnyExiledScot Sun 15 Jun 2014, 8:40 pm

It worries me when I find myself in agreement with Frank Haddock!

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Sun 15 Jun 2014, 9:56 pm

George Carlin wrote:Another dose of common sense from Mike Blair:
Sinclair red against Scotland a dangerous precedent
By Mike Blair


International rugby is a game of small margins and Scotland's win over Canada could have gone either way.

The main talking point will be the decision by referee Mike Fraser to show a red card to Canadian back-row Jebb Sinclair for 'leading with the elbow' with five minutes left to play.

Being reduced to 14 men was bad enough but in the process Canada lost the penalty in front of the posts which, if successfully converted, would have put them ahead.

For me, it wasn't even a penalty against Sinclair and decisions like these set a dangerous precedent.

I've seen Clermont winger Napoli Nalaga yellow-carded for 'leading with the knee' when carrying the ball. Could Sean Lamont have been put to the television match official for the lead up to the Taylor Paris head knock? In my opinion that would have been absurd but a referee has to be consistent.

I suggested last week that Scotland had to place a heavy emphasis on kick-off receipt and the ensuing exit strategy out of their half.

Word from within the camp was that it had been a focus of training leading up to the second Test of the tour, it's a big part of the game. "Points on the board only count once you get out of your half," an old school teacher used to say.

Unfortunately, it was an area that Scotland struggled in; over-complicating sometimes, not protecting the catcher other times but also - credit to the Canadians - mistakes were made on the back of an extremely effective high and long drop out by Ciaran Hearn and a persistent, high-intensity chase.

Too often Scotland handed over possession or field position straight after scoring points. For Scotland to progress they need to decide what works for them - who kicks, when they kick and where they kick - and then execute.

Execution was an issue throughout the game. You can do all the attacking shape work you want during the week, but if you cannot execute the basic skills to a high enough level then there is almost no point.

Scotland seemed to want to test the Canadian wide defence but, with respect to Lamont who carried very effectively and Sean Maitland, they are not ball players and as second receivers you would want Stuart Hogg and Peter Horne stepping up.

If you took an aerial snapshot of the wide attack shape it would look good but allocation of the right player to the right role was imprecise.

Defensively, again, if you take the aerial snapshot the structure was not too bad but consistent line speed and tackle completion were not where they should have been.

Scotland defence coach Matt Taylor, who has done such a great job with Glasgow Warriors, only had Moray Low who he's regularly worked with. He will certainly look for improvement when some more familiar Warriors faces appear for the second half of the tour.

Canada were exciting to watch. They showed the benefits of skill development on the IRB Sevens World Series, with five of their starting team involved in their core sevens squad this year.

There was unpredictability, ambition and no shortage of skill. Jeff Hassler's try was an example of execution more associated with that of the All Blacks.

Blair Cowan made a very positive impact when he replaced Alasdair Strokosch for the Scots. He was aggressive in the contact and quick over ball, producing a turnover with his first involvement and was a constant nuisance at the break down.

There is no doubt at all in my mind that Finn Russell has the necessary attributes to wear the Scotland number 10 jersey for many years but he is in a position where he is learning his trade in the international arena and mistakes will be made, as they were in Toronto.

Former Scotland head coach Frank Hadden said that he believed 50 professional games were generally required before launching players into the international environment. Russell has barely a third of that with Glasgow so his learning curve will have to accelerate quickly to consistently meet the demands of Test rugby.

So it's two from two with this group of players. A winning habit is being created, which shouldn't be underestimated. There will be plenty on Vern Cotter's mind though with basic skill execution being at the forefront of his thoughts.

Ignoring Gordy Reid, Finn Russell, Peter Horne, Sean Maitland and Stuart Hogg?

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Post by RDW Mon 16 Jun 2014, 10:15 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:It worries me when I find myself in agreement with Frank Haddock!

50 games is a bit excessive, especially in Scotland.

To put it into perspective, if we stuck by those rules Dave Denton, Matt Scott and Grant Gilchrist would only be getting capped for the first time this summer tour, having only reached 50 club appearances relatively recently. Johnny Gray wouldn't even be close.

Although to be fair it is taking the urine a bit when Alex Allan and Kevin Bryce have more gametime for Scotland than they do for their clubs!

20 would be a good number (almost a full season), but really it is down to the individual in question.  No one had any issues with Russell coming on this tour.

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Post by George Carlin Mon 16 Jun 2014, 10:59 am

Taking coaching advice from Sir Franklyn of Haddock is like asking Kim Kardashian how one can be taken seriously in life.
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Post by Majestic83 Mon 16 Jun 2014, 12:25 pm

demosthenes wrote:Captain?  Ford, Gray, or Denton.

And the youngest is the best option.

My guess for Captain will be Johnny Gray. Captained the u20s and did a good job there. Also captain the Scotland A team earlier this season did he not?

No clear options who have had lots of experience as captain as club level, well apart from Ford but that has been tried and failed big time so Gray is the best option for this game and also as a long term future captain. Think that is something Scotland has lacked over the last few seasons is a strong leader, the guys who they have had as captain like laidlaw, brown, ford and whoever else have never been assured of their places in the team every week and aren't the most dominant of characters.
Get Gray in early as captain and let him grow!

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Post by R!skysports Mon 16 Jun 2014, 12:29 pm

Live on BT Sport 2.... Doh 

means I am going to have to watch more of this car crash tv

Ah well - no-one said being a Scotland supporter was going to be easy (or fun)

 Crying or Very sad 

PS - J Gray for Capt. - lets look to the future...

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Mon 16 Jun 2014, 12:36 pm

Riskysports wrote:Live on BT Sport 2.... Doh 

means I am going to have to watch more of this car crash tv

Ah well - no-one said being a Scotland supporter was going to be easy (or fun)

 Crying or Very sad 

PS - J Gray for Capt. - lets look to the future...

Is it not on Sky Sports?

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Post by RDW Mon 16 Jun 2014, 12:38 pm

The SRU said the last two games would be on Sky Sports...

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Post by cakeordeath Mon 16 Jun 2014, 12:45 pm

It's on Sky Sports. I set a reminder. Or as I like to call it "the humiliation alarm"

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Post by EWT Spoons Mon 16 Jun 2014, 12:48 pm

It's on Sky Sports 3, according to here:

Where is the match

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Post by RDW Mon 16 Jun 2014, 12:51 pm

I'm confused - why does it say the game is on a Friday?

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Post by EWT Spoons Mon 16 Jun 2014, 12:56 pm

Just guessing, but because it's on Friday?

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Post by cakeordeath Mon 16 Jun 2014, 12:57 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm confused - why does it say the game is on a Friday?

Because it is on a Friday

Argentina v Scotland

Argentina Rugby Logo

Friday 20 June 4.10pm (8.10pm BST), Estadio Mario A. Kempes, Cordoba

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Post by Weegie Wizard Mon 16 Jun 2014, 1:00 pm

Yeah it's definitely on SS3 - set the record yesterday.
Looks like GC has made an error in the preview although he has made up for it with the photo choices  Laugh

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Post by RDW Mon 16 Jun 2014, 1:17 pm

Yeah I was confused because GC's article said Saturday, and because I thought 4pm on a Friday was a fairly strange time to have a game in Argentina!

On the plus side it means I can now watch the game and there's a longer time until the SA game for the squad to recover, and the minus side it means less preparation time for the new squad.

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Post by R!skysports Mon 16 Jun 2014, 1:19 pm

The last time it trust GC  Shocked 

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Post by George Carlin Mon 16 Jun 2014, 1:31 pm

Scotland Summer Tour, Game 3: Argentina v Scotland, 21 June Facepa10
Jeez. But I mean, what do you expect for nothing?
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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 16 Jun 2014, 1:47 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:It worries me when I find myself in agreement with Frank Haddock!

50 games is a bit excessive, especially in Scotland.

To put it into perspective, if we stuck by those rules Dave Denton, Matt Scott and Grant Gilchrist would only be getting capped for the first time this summer tour, having only reached 50 club appearances relatively recently. Johnny Gray wouldn't even be close.

Although to be fair it is taking the urine a bit when Alex Allan and Kevin Bryce have more gametime for Scotland than they do for their clubs!

20 would be a good number (almost a full season), but really it is down to the individual in question.  No one had any issues with Russell coming on this tour.

I agree that it really comes down to the individual - but I like the general gist of what he's saying, which is basically players are typically only ready for international rugby after 1-2 seasons of pro rugby. There are notable exceptions where you are dealing with a top talent, and clearly with Stuart Hogg and Matt Scott we've had two of those relatively recently. I think the point is more to give the younger players the benefit of the doubt. For example whilst I fully endorse Finn Russell getting game time against the USA and Canada - he was the best SQ 10 at the end of the season - I think where Haddock's point is relevant is that it's wholly unfair for us to expect a seamless transition. Only a few months ago he was turning out for Ayr, and whilst most world class players emanate from Ayr, that's an extremely quick transition. I think we can all agree he struggled a bit on Saturday. Some nice touches but didn't stamp any sort of authority on that game.

I think an example of what Haddock had in mind is Bob Harley, who has taken a more conventional route to the Scotland side (assuming he starts against Argentina and South Africa). He's a player with a bit more experience at Glasgow (99 appearances) and in his mid-20s. He's shown flaws to his game early on (handling and running with ball in hand) and has had the chance to iron those out, and is now getting starts having found his best form in a club jersey. My expectation is that he'll fit right in.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 16 Jun 2014, 1:53 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:It's on Sky Sports 3, according to here:

Where is the match

Disaster - I only have Sky Sports 1 & 2 plus BT 1&2. Grrrrrr....

Right, now to find a pub that's willing to spurn the Wendyball and show Scotland getting crushed at rugby instead. I guess that's a choice between having a pub full of happy customers vs having me sitting at the bar slowly becoming an angry drunk and shouting at the screen.

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Post by George Carlin Mon 16 Jun 2014, 2:05 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:It worries me when I find myself in agreement with Frank Haddock!

50 games is a bit excessive, especially in Scotland.

To put it into perspective, if we stuck by those rules Dave Denton, Matt Scott and Grant Gilchrist would only be getting capped for the first time this summer tour, having only reached 50 club appearances relatively recently. Johnny Gray wouldn't even be close.

Although to be fair it is taking the urine a bit when Alex Allan and Kevin Bryce have more gametime for Scotland than they do for their clubs!

20 would be a good number (almost a full season), but really it is down to the individual in question.  No one had any issues with Russell coming on this tour.
For example whilst I fully endorse Finn Russell getting game time against the USA and Canada - he was the best SQ 10 at the end of the season - I think where Haddock's point is relevant is that it's wholly unfair for us to expect a seamless transition. Only a few months ago he was turning out for Ayr, and whilst most world class players emanate from Ayr, that's an extremely quick transition.
 Hug
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