Should Ireland Pull out of Celtic Rugby

Looking at everything that is happening European Rugby at the moment and the attempts of the IRFU to make a success of the Celtic league despite the Welsh teams attempts to join the Aviva is it now time for the Irish Proviences to take a selfish approach and look at their own options for the good of Irish rugby. at the month it is clear that the Irish teams are the teams that are bringing the crowds and interest to matches in the Celtic league.

with this in mind should the IRFU look to contact the PRL or French leagues to include the Irish teams?

Noooooooo. No. No.

If we did that Scottish, Welsh and Italian rugby would be fecked. We'll never be welcome in the PRL club who have an entirely different philosophy to the IRFU and the French are just too far away for traveling fans every week.

I can't see how that would work,the English and French leagues are too big as it is so where would you fit 4 more teams in.

For better or worse I think we're stuck with what we have for now but I think we're seeing the IRFU take a selfish approach as now that the top 6 in the league qualify for the top European comp they seem to be giving Connacht decent funding in the hope of a real shot at making the new ERCC or whatever it's called.It's a pretty bold move to attempt to dominate the competition utterly and so get all the European revenue available to us.

Notch wrote:Noooooooo. No. No.

If we did that Scottish, Welsh and Italian rugby would be fecked. We'll never be welcome in the PRL club who have an entirely different philosophy to the IRFU and the French are just too far away for traveling fans every week.

i would never like for it to happen, i am just playing devils advocate tbh. i suppose the big question why is it down to the IRFU to make it a success.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I can't see how that would work,the English and French leagues are too big as it is so where would you fit 4 more teams in.

For better or worse I think we're stuck with what we have for now but I think we're seeing the IRFU take a selfish approach as now that the top 6 in the league qualify for the top European comp they seem to be giving Connacht decent funding in the hope of a real shot at making the new ERCC or whatever it's called.It's a pretty bold move to attempt to dominate the competition utterly and so get all the European revenue available to us.

Don't think it can be called selfish that the IRFU are supporting their teams to make them the best that they can.
Think it could be the other Unions failings not supporting thier own teams enough, if one Union up's its game its up to the others to respond.

I know that it was tongue in cheek, asoreleftshoulder.

Kingshu wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I can't see how that would work,the English and French leagues are too big as it is so where would you fit 4 more teams in.

For better or worse I think we're stuck with what we have for now but I think we're seeing the IRFU take a selfish approach as now that the top 6 in the league qualify for the top European comp they seem to be giving Connacht decent funding in the hope of a real shot at making the new ERCC or whatever it's called.It's a pretty bold move to attempt to dominate the competition utterly and so get all the European revenue available to us.

Don't think it can be called selfish that the IRFU are supporting their teams to make them the best that they can.
Think it could be the other Unions failings not supporting thier own teams enough, if one Union up's its game its up to the others to respond.

I know that it was tongue in cheek,  asoreleftshoulder.

with this approach are we going to have some serious discontent with the other unions if Ireland repeatedly get 3/4 team in the New HC each year. it becomes irelands problem again??

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I can't see how that would work,the English and French leagues are too big as it is so where would you fit 4 more teams in.

For better or worse I think we're stuck with what we have for now but I think we're seeing the IRFU take a selfish approach as now that the top 6 in the league qualify for the top European comp they seem to be giving Connacht decent funding in the hope of a real shot at making the new ERCC or whatever it's called.It's a pretty bold move to attempt to dominate the competition utterly and so get all the European revenue available to us.

Don't think it can be called selfish that the IRFU are supporting their teams to make them the best that they can.
Think it could be the other Unions failings not supporting thier own teams enough, if one Union up's its game its up to the others to respond.

I know that it was tongue in cheek,  asoreleftshoulder.

with this approach are we going to have some serious discontent with the other unions if Ireland repeatedly get 3/4 team in the New HC each year. it becomes irelands problem again??

Then it would be up to the other Unions to up there game, its not quite the same as a European Cup as all the Unions in the Pro 12 have the same revenue streams. THe IRFU do not have different revenue streams from the other Unions, but they do support thier pro teams more, if the FIR, SRU WRU want to the best chance of having more teams at the top of the league they have to support their teams. The SRU a few years ago decided to invest more into thier Pro teams, and Glasgow have really seen the benefits, for some reson it hasn't quite worked for Edinburgh though. IF WRU decided to support thier Pro teams better than they do, it would be a very competative league, with no one sure of a EC place.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I can't see how that would work,the English and French leagues are too big as it is so where would you fit 4 more teams in.

For better or worse I think we're stuck with what we have for now but I think we're seeing the IRFU take a selfish approach as now that the top 6 in the league qualify for the top European comp they seem to be giving Connacht decent funding in the hope of a real shot at making the new ERCC or whatever it's called.It's a pretty bold move to attempt to dominate the competition utterly and so get all the European revenue available to us.

I will be very surprised if Connacht makes the top 6, in fact i see them as one of the few teams (with possibly Treviso) that are unlikely to make progress. Well we will see but Craig Clarke is an extremely big loss.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

Notch wrote:Noooooooo. No. No.

If we did that Scottish, Welsh and Italian rugby would be fecked. We'll never be welcome in the PRL club who have an entirely different philosophy to the IRFU and the French are just too far away for traveling fans every week.

i would never like for it to happen, i am just playing devils advocate tbh. i suppose the big question why is it down to the IRFU to make it a success.

It is true that the Welsh are holding the league back with their internal politics and ongoing farce.

VinceWLB wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I can't see how that would work,the English and French leagues are too big as it is so where would you fit 4 more teams in.

For better or worse I think we're stuck with what we have for now but I think we're seeing the IRFU take a selfish approach as now that the top 6 in the league qualify for the top European comp they seem to be giving Connacht decent funding in the hope of a real shot at making the new ERCC or whatever it's called.It's a pretty bold move to attempt to dominate the competition utterly and so get all the European revenue available to us.

I will be very surprised if Connacht makes the top 6, in fact i see them as one of the few teams (with possibly Treviso) that are unlikely to make progress. Well we will see but Craig Clarke is an extremely big loss.

They have made numerous new signings this year in personnel but even more so in the back room,which is where the long term approach will bear fruit. This is a quote from the Connacht website "The IRFU have committed in excess of €1million in additional funding to Connacht Rugby for the coming season, with Strength and Conditioning facilities being one of the areas to benefit from increased resources."

They may have lost Clarke but they have a lot of youngsters coming through and in Muliaina they have signed a superstar who will inspire ticket sales.They may not make the top 6 this year but I'd be very confident they will improve year on year now that they are getting the proper support from the IRFU.

Kingshu wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I can't see how that would work,the English and French leagues are too big as it is so where would you fit 4 more teams in.

For better or worse I think we're stuck with what we have for now but I think we're seeing the IRFU take a selfish approach as now that the top 6 in the league qualify for the top European comp they seem to be giving Connacht decent funding in the hope of a real shot at making the new ERCC or whatever it's called.It's a pretty bold move to attempt to dominate the competition utterly and so get all the European revenue available to us.

Don't think it can be called selfish that the IRFU are supporting their teams to make them the best that they can.
Think it could be the other Unions failings not supporting thier own teams enough, if one Union up's its game its up to the others to respond.

I know that it was tongue in cheek,  asoreleftshoulder.

Yeah probably a bad choice of words there.

Thinking back to the bad old days in the 90s, I'd be very reluctant to walk away from the celtic league/pro12 format. It certainly didn't work for us when we were out on our own. And for all the trouble Wales have in the regions they're still in a far healthier place overall than they were prior to regionalisation when you look at the national side. Scotland haven't fared quite so well with it but that looks to be changing with Glasgow.
I don't think the English or French would really want us in their domestic leagues. The only viable alternative I can see is some sort of conference system which would incorporate Eurpoean competition also.
But I believe the Celtic league can be really positive for Ireland, Wales and Scotland (not convinced with the long term viability of the Italian experiment) in the long term. You've a population base of 14m plus between the 3 so if you can market the league properly and produce a good product it can thrive.

In short, no. For the good of rugby across Europe the IRFU needs to remain aligned with the non PRL/LNR sides. As it stands, there is too much concentration of power with these two private commercial corporation.

The non PRL/LNR group suffered enough of a hit to their bargaining power with the welsh flirting with desertion. Now, more than ever, a united front is required.

The celtic league is still relatively young and all the leagues had plenty of turmoil in their formative years. Increased market penetration with new tv deals, a new title sponsor coming in, it won't take much for the league to really turn into something special.

Yes and set your own 'club' competition up.

I wouldn't like to see them pull out, and I don't see it happening unless the AP begins to really struggle to compete with T14. Then an Anglo-Irish might be an option? I wouldn't really like to see this happen either. I don't think the IRFU and PRL would make a happy marriage. I like the Pro12, and with SKY on board, and hopefully Guinness as title sponsor, I believe it can really kick on once the Welsh get their act together.
I'm not sure the Regions actually wanted to join the AP. The impression I get is it was more of a delusion created by some of their fans. Nothing like burning your bridge while you stand on it...

Scrumpy wrote:Yes and set your own 'club' competition up.

That's called the AIL. There are some entertaining games in the AIL.

It would be nice to see 'club' rugby grow in Ireland as they don't really have a national sport.

The sad thing is I think the regions and the threatened Anglo-Welsh breakaway were used as a bargaining chip for the PRL in their battle over the new European Cup and the people running the regions either thought it was going to be possible or knew it was never going to be possible and used it as a weapon against the WRU anyway...

I'm not sure which is worse but them holding the sword of damocles over the league they will depend on financially in the long-term is a magnificent example of sh!tting where you eat.

Lol

In your opinion!

Scrumpy wrote:It would be nice to see 'club' rugby grow in Ireland as they don't really have a national sport.

Lol try educating yourself.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+irelands+national+sport

I don't count them as they're not really real sports played the world over.  

Scrumpy wrote:I don't count them as they're not really real sports played the world over.  

Wow that's one of the stupidest comments I've ever seen on here   

Thanks, but unless it has a world cup I don't count it as a national sport.

Notch wrote:If we did that Scottish, Welsh and Italian rugby would be fecked.

But not as fecked as you lot would be. The Welsh and Italians would go back to what they were before they tried to change their setups to match the Irish, and that may even win over more fans. The Scottish would struggle maybe.

Notch wrote:The sad thing is I think the regions and the threatened Anglo-Welsh breakaway were used as a bargaining chip for the PRL in their battle over the new European Cup and the people running the regions either thought it was going to be possible or knew it was never going to be possible and used it as a weapon against the WRU anyway...

I'm not sure which is worse but them holding the sword of damocles over the league they will depend on financially in the long-term is a magnificent example of sh!tting where you eat.

i guess the big question now is how do the IRFU build the league in the other countries or is that the Job of the individual unions. should the IRFU be putting pressure on the unions to help build the league in their individual countries. are they trying at the moment but failing.

Also nice to see another thread that has decended to the point of the Welsh regions are the devil, and they are to blame for all our woes, no wonder there are less welsh posters on here than in the past.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Also nice to see another thread that has decended to the point of the Welsh regions are the devil, and they are to blame for all our woes, no wonder there are less welsh posters on here than in the past.

not the intention of the post and on reflectoin on my own contributions probably seems like i am leading it that way. apologies.

I suppose a better question is what can all the unions do to improve the league so that i can match the money that the Aviva and particularly the LNR

Scrumpy wrote:Thanks, but unless it has a world cup I don't count it as a national sport.

Well football has a World Cup and yet England have once again proved it isn't quite their National sport.  

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Also nice to see another thread that has decended to the point of the Welsh regions are the devil, and they are to blame for all our woes, no wonder there are less welsh posters on here than in the past.

No you're not the devil and you're not to blame for all our woes, but the ongoing dispute between the regions and the Union is damaging to all of your business partners but particularly those who are invested in Celtic Rugby. I do believe it does make the league less attractive to sponsors.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Also nice to see another thread that has decended to the point of the Welsh regions are the devil, and they are to blame for all our woes, no wonder there are less welsh posters on here than in the past.

I'd say there is less of everyone here than in the past.

SecretFly wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Thanks, but unless it has a world cup I don't count it as a national sport.

Well football has a World Cup and yet England have once again proved it isn't quite their National sport.  

Very true, glad I'm not a football fan  , but at least they have lots of clubs to pick from and follow.

SecretFly wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Thanks, but unless it has a world cup I don't count it as a national sport.

Well football has a World Cup and yet England have once again proved it isn't quite their National sport.  

Strange definitions, eh? As far as I'm concerned well supported and successful World Cup which has an appeal beyond one or two countries is the marker of an international sport. A national championship that is well supported, more so than any other sport, and part of that countries culture is the marker of a national sport.

Pro12 will NEVER match the money of Top14 or AP. It's just a contradiction in terms to suggest it might do if they structures were good enough.

Not enough people means not the same money. So? Does the Pro12 continuously strive to match something it will never reach or just simply try to have 30 players on a field (in that they can match the Top14 and AP) play a brand of rugby that will pull people to it.

Attractive, combative, high class rugby - that's all Pro12 should try to accomplish. In many areas of the league it has already done that, it just needs to be consolidated. The product may not have the funding but it certainly has as exciting rugby as the other two.

SecretFly wrote:Pro12 will NEVER match the money of Top14 or AP.  It's just a contradiction in terms to suggest it might do if they structures were good enough.

Not enough people means not the same money.  So?  Does the Pro12 continuously strive to match something it will never reach or just simply try to have 30 players on a field (in that they can match the Top14 and AP) play a brand of rugby that will pull people to it.  

Attractive, combative, high class rugby - that's all Pro12 should try to accomplish.  In many areas of the league it has already done that, it just needs to be consolidated.  The product may not have the funding but it certainly has as exciting rugby as the other two.

the big problem then will be keeping the players that provide this brand of rugby in the future.

Scrumpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Thanks, but unless it has a world cup I don't count it as a national sport.

Well football has a World Cup and yet England have once again proved it isn't quite their National sport.  

Very true, glad I'm not a football fan  , but at least they have lots of clubs to pick from and follow.

To paraphrase Father Ted ..that's because you are Big, not faraway. 55 million folks and growing is the maths on that deal, Scumpy.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:Looking at everything that is happening European Rugby at the moment and the attempts of the IRFU to make a success of the Celtic league despite the Welsh teams attempts to join the Aviva is it now time for the Irish Proviences to take a selfish approach and look at their own options for the good of Irish rugby. at the month it is clear that the Irish teams are the teams that are bringing the crowds and interest to matches in the Celtic league.

with this in mind should the IRFU look to contact the PRL or French leagues to include the Irish teams?

this is whats being known as a turncoat.

when ur on the up firk everyone else !

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Pro12 will NEVER match the money of Top14 or AP.  It's just a contradiction in terms to suggest it might do if they structures were good enough.

Not enough people means not the same money.  So?  Does the Pro12 continuously strive to match something it will never reach or just simply try to have 30 players on a field (in that they can match the Top14 and AP) play a brand of rugby that will pull people to it.  

Attractive, combative, high class rugby - that's all Pro12 should try to accomplish.  In many areas of the league it has already done that, it just needs to be consolidated.  The product may not have the funding but it certainly has as exciting rugby as the other two.

the big problem then will be keeping the players that provide this brand of rugby in the future.

Yeah, I've had many months debating that one.  But we're left with the results of truth and we'll have to service the truth.  Players probably will drift away more than less so now with more and more inducements from abroad.  

But - they'll still be players of the calibre that other Leagues will Want to attract them away, and that means they'll have learned their trade still in the Pro12.  It's the kind of rugby we play perhaps because of our less than large stock of ultra large players that make the rugby we play exciting - that goes for Welsh and Irish and now increasingly Scottish too.  We have a product and a kind of rugby that is sellable and you don't always need Best players present to do that but moreso a coaching philosophy that nurtures it in each subsequent generation coming in

SecretFly wrote:

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Pro12 will NEVER match the money of Top14 or AP.  It's just a contradiction in terms to suggest it might do if they structures were good enough.

Not enough people means not the same money.  So?  Does the Pro12 continuously strive to match something it will never reach or just simply try to have 30 players on a field (in that they can match the Top14 and AP) play a brand of rugby that will pull people to it.  

Attractive, combative, high class rugby - that's all Pro12 should try to accomplish.  In many areas of the league it has already done that, it just needs to be consolidated.  The product may not have the funding but it certainly has as exciting rugby as the other two.

the big problem then will be keeping the players that provide this brand of rugby in the future.

Yeah, I've had many months debating that one.  But we're left with the results of truth and we'll have to service the truth.  Players probably will drift away more than less so now with more and more inducements from abroad.  

But - they'll still be players of the calibre that other Leagues will Want to attract them away, and that means they'll have learned their trade still in the Pro12.  It's the kind of rugby we play perhaps because of our less than large stock of ultra large players that make the rugby we play exciting - that goes for Welsh and Irish and now increasingly Scottish too.  We have a product and a kind of rugby that is sellable and you don't always need Best players present to do that but moreso a coaching philosophy that nurtures it in each subsequent generation coming in

yeah think you are right there. for me one of the most attractive thing about the Pro 12 is young players getting their break and playing beside seasoned pro's perhaps earlier than other leagues.

For me one of the most annoying things about the Pro 12 is that players get too many breaks and rests.

What they should be looking to do is expanding the pro 12. The southern hemisphere unions are actively looking to expand super rugby with a view of growing it and bringing in a new fan base. The Pro 12 should be looking to do the same.

As for Ireland, I've always been in favour of sticking with the pro 12. Theres more money in other leagues etc but there are plenty of downsides to those leagues also.

The pro 12 is about to enter a new phase in its existance and the new sponsors and sky coming on board are a step forward. Personally I thought it was better when it was 10 teams but welcoming the Italian teams is good for the league in the long term.

Scrumpy wrote:For me one of the most annoying things about the Pro 12 is that players get too many breaks and rests.

Theres more internationals in the pro 12. England players are also rested and next season the French will be.

Scrumpy wrote:Thanks, but unless it has a world cup I don't count it as a national sport.

It's very easy to educate yourself on this stuff.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+a+national+sport

I don't have Java so your little links don't work, shame as I'm sure they're great  

Just google"what is a national sport",it's very basic.You do have google right?

Yes. Please give it a try Ireland.

Let me know what Nigel Wray's answer was after all the compliments he's received from the Irish in the last 6 months.

Scrumpy wrote:For me one of the most annoying things about the Pro 12 is that players get too many breaks and rests.

Far too obvious, Scrumpy. A slightly more subtle baiting for the bites, methinks  

profitius wrote:What they should be looking to do is expanding the pro 12. The southern hemisphere unions are actively looking to expand super rugby with a view of growing it and bringing in a new fan base. The Pro 12 should be looking to do the same.

As for Ireland, I've always been in favour of sticking with the pro 12. Theres more money in other leagues etc but there are plenty of downsides to those leagues also.

The pro 12 is about to enter a new phase in its existance and the new sponsors and sky coming on board are a step forward. Personally I thought it was better when it was 10 teams but welcoming the Italian teams is good for the league in the long term.

do you think the goal should be to create a two tiered league in the future? would be great to see and extra scottish team enter or welsh if there was some way to to finance the whole the lot.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Just google"what is a national sport",it's very basic.You do have google right?

You do have a return andspacekey don't you?'as typing' everything on the samelineandwithout spaceslooks a bit silly after a while,

Scrumpy wrote:It would be nice to see 'club' rugby grow in Ireland as they don't really have a national sport.

Your right scrumps, we don't have 'a' national sport. We have four national sports according to that link you won't open   
Ireland is the only country in the world to have four national sports (and they didn't even mention horseracing)!

Scrumpy wrote:Thanks, but unless it has a world cup I don't count it as a national sport.

Nice comment. So a national sport can only exist if it is an international sport?

So if there are GAA clubs in England, USA, Argentina, Australia, etc. And teams from USA and England compete in the premier competitions in both GAA sports.