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England v India First Test Trent Bridge

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Post by msp83 Tue 08 Jul 2014, 5:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

The 5 test series cramped into a 42 day schedule gets underway at Trent Bridge tomorrow. The 2 middling sides have a lot to prove. Hopefully we'll get to have some exciting cricket.

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Post by Pal Joey Thu 10 Jul 2014, 6:28 pm

Up early to catch the last 2 balls. Decent total from India. Wicket looks fine for batting so a draw seems pretty likely. Not sure if India can make regular breakthroughs and secure a decent lead with their bowling attack but we'll have to wait and see.
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Post by kingraf Thu 10 Jul 2014, 6:33 pm

This is an astonishingly poor pace attack. I'm pretty sure I've scored hundreds against better pace line ups at club level. 75-80mph, no swing, less seam... It's cannon fodder, really .
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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Jul 2014, 6:36 pm

Pleasantly amused to read KP_fan expecting England to be five down by the end of the day. Laugh Mind you, this is the same fellow who saw India winning in Mumbai against England as a "bottom line fact". Laugh

For those of us able to engage the gray matter, and not be blinded by anti-Englishness, we will see that forcing a result on this pitch will be a very tough ordeal, made harder by the Indian bowlers being out of form.

Cook's dismissal was freakish but so long as England go unscathed through the first half hour tomorrow, they should be able to bat through the day in relative comfort and put the Indians under pressure going into day four.

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Post by kingraf Thu 10 Jul 2014, 6:46 pm

If these Indian bowlers are out of form, this is the longest I've ever seen anyone off form. I mean it's lasted their whole careers!
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Jul 2014, 7:00 pm

England missed a real chance this afternoon, but tbf its not like we bowled that badly, just one of those days. Pitch is lifeless

Draw written all over it

DRS already being missed, the Vijay decision a joke.

Cook really needs to take a break or something. He looks done as it is.

England's lack of a leader/killer instinct is really hurting. We constantly get in positions to put the foot down and let teams off the hook.
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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Jul 2014, 7:11 pm

kingraf wrote:If these Indian bowlers are out of form, this is the longest I've ever seen anyone off form. I mean it's lasted their whole careers!

I was trying to be generous!

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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 Thu 10 Jul 2014, 7:28 pm

Duty281 wrote:
kingraf wrote:If these Indian bowlers are out of form, this is the longest I've ever seen anyone off form. I mean it's lasted their whole careers!

I was trying to be generous!

India, a country where you can count good fast bowlers on fingers, but its not a fun making issue. India too win test matches and that is only possible if you take 20 wickets. I think we have done it many a times. I hope this time we will win some matches.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Jul 2014, 8:46 pm

I also don't think Cook's dismissal can be classed as unlucky. He's missed an easy shot off his pads, and because he's in a horrible horrible position (head is almost another set of stumps outside off!) he's been bowled round his legs.

Honestly we need to do anything to get him scoring runs again. That's what this England team need most imo
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Post by kingraf Thu 10 Jul 2014, 8:52 pm

It is a problem. He's comfortably the best batsman England have, and it's no surprise that in the best series' England had 2010-2012 he was there, thereabouts amongst the runs. He's never going to score 766 ever again (although, against this attack, he may never get a better chance), but England need him, bad. I didn't think I'd ever agree, but maybe the time is coming to relieve him of the captaincy.
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Post by mystiroakey Thu 10 Jul 2014, 9:11 pm

we dont have another that could take that role on though?

bell or broad only as i can't see prior being in the team for that much longer.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Jul 2014, 9:30 pm

He isn't a good captain anyways, so relieving him of it isn't going to be of detriment to the team, and I'd do anything to get him firing again with the bat (and yes I think the captaincy is draining him but also effects the time he has to concentrate on his batting)

I'd give it to Broad personally.
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Post by mystiroakey Thu 10 Jul 2014, 9:33 pm

Yes I would also have to go with broad.

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Post by msp83 Thu 10 Jul 2014, 9:58 pm

The pitch isn't helping much, but the test match has seen enough shifts to keep it somewhat interesting. A fine innings from Murali Vijay, and Mahendra Singh Dhoni, promoting himself to 6, batted with responsibility to score a very handy 82. But then Jadeja batted without a conceptual understanding of the game situation, and Binny failed to surprise. Bhuvneshwar Kumar and Mohammed Shami though, provided India that strong total that they were threatening to put together and almost gave away the chance to do so through a lower order collapse.
Alastair cook yet again failed with the bat, but Robson and Ballance did a good job in surviving the day. The Indian bowlers seemed to lack intensity after Cook's wicket though. They need to step up tomorrow.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 10 Jul 2014, 9:58 pm

I'd tap into that old English trait, personally: perseverance.

Give Cook the rest of the series as captain, and then see if there is improvement in his batting, or more aggression in his captaincy. Perhaps both. It wasn't so long ago that Cook was being praised to the highest of heavens:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/20622025

But, if there is to be failure, I'd perhaps give the captaincy to either Ian Bell or Stuart Broad.

On second thoughts...can we give it to Anderson based on his looks? Drool

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 10 Jul 2014, 10:06 pm

I'd still be disappointed if I was India, 550-600 was on the cards and then you've got some really big scoreboard pressure and a real threat of the follow on. 

As it is, England are gonna have to bat pretty damn appallingly for this to be anything other than a draw
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Post by msp83 Thu 10 Jul 2014, 10:28 pm

Doubt 550-600 were that obvious numbers even when they went to lunch only 1 down or even when MSD and Vijay were putting together that partnership. The reason was that they were going in with only 5 batsmen and Dhoni. A score of 450 should have been achieved from the foundations that Vijay's innings provided, and they eventually reached there, though not in the conventional way.......
Hoping for some surprises from the bowlers but expecting some more early test tons for some of England's emerging batsmen.......

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Post by NickisBHAFC Thu 10 Jul 2014, 11:23 pm

Yeah this Muppet Cook has to go, embarrassment. 

Need to bat out the whole day tomorrow, or were doomed.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 10 Jul 2014, 11:34 pm

Yeah, I think India will be satisfied with 450 although not ecstatic. It should be enough here to at least set them on the way to a draw. However, once you take account of the time it took for them to accumulate that total, probably not significant enough for them to force a win unless England seriously foul up.

The need for a full time spinner was really shown during that 10th wicket partnership (incredibly intelligent batting by numbers 10 and 11). Even if he (whoever he is) is not good enough to take many wickets, we still require someone who can at least dry up the runs and give the seamers a more meaningful break. They were dead on their feet before tea.

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Post by mystiroakey Thu 10 Jul 2014, 11:36 pm

I personally think Root should have been given more overs.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 11 Jul 2014, 6:33 am

the pitch is not easy for scoring so 400 itself would have been a good score.

Ball will reverse and Sami, Ishant will get it to.
and Jadeja will be a handful and India should take some lead although the range of how much they can lead by is huge.

and Eng's RR will confirm how easy it is to score here.

The pressure of a possible collapse and defeat until end of today will remain on Eng
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Post by KP_fan Fri 11 Jul 2014, 7:45 am

@msp.
no point being critical of those who failed like Binny, Jadeja, kohli or even Dhwan. Inspite of their failures we got to 450 is a big positive.

not every one is meant to score in every inning and by T3 though, everyone should have scored.
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Post by GSC Fri 11 Jul 2014, 7:52 am

I do feel for Cook, as much as I think stepping down would benefit everyone. When you get out like that, you really are getting no divine intervention, people want to jump on him for any minute detail in the field. 350 would've been a win for England bowling first on this pitch, the last pair brought India probably around or slightly above par. As much as you want to pile on Cook; Broad, Anderson, Plunkett etc couldn't prise out a #11. Cook can't bowl for them.
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Post by GSC Fri 11 Jul 2014, 7:55 am

As for the rest of this test, its England vs scoreboard pressure and the demons in their own heads.

While the pitch isn't condusive to fast scoring, theres little for the bowlers, and India hardly boast Johnson, Siddle and Harris in their seam attack.
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Post by Pal Joey Fri 11 Jul 2014, 9:18 am

GSC wrote:As for the rest of this test, its England vs scoreboard pressure and the demons in their own heads.

While the pitch isn't condusive to fast scoring, theres little for the bowlers, and India hardly boast Johnson, Siddle and Harris in their seam attack.

No, fortunately they play for us.

Still think England need to try and push it along though. Maybe these two (Robson and Ballance) can settle in this morning and then try and put some of that scoreboard pressure back on India.

(Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any failure of the above two batsmen - nor any subsequent mini-middle order collapse.)
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Post by kingraf Fri 11 Jul 2014, 10:23 am

Only an Australian would suggest a counterattack 420 runs in the negative
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Post by Pal Joey Fri 11 Jul 2014, 10:33 am

kingraf wrote:Only an Australian would suggest a counterattack 420 runs in the negative

Maybe one of those "creeping up" counter attacks. You know - start this morning with some surety and positiveness; then see what happens.
What's the alternative? Get bogged down, lose a few wickets... then panic?  Wink 
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Post by Duty281 Fri 11 Jul 2014, 10:41 am

I still wouldn't rule out an England win; they'll have to bat for five sessions though.

Oh wait, that is ruling out an England win! Wink

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Post by kingraf Fri 11 Jul 2014, 10:43 am

Well, we'd work our way into the day, see off the early morning, and reassess at lunch. The plan would most likely develop into batting once, for two days, and leaving the bowlers with 100 overs to "do something"
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Post by kingraf Fri 11 Jul 2014, 10:44 am

India would collapse for 45, and we'd win before lunch day five...
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Post by Pal Joey Fri 11 Jul 2014, 10:50 am

Maybe not talk about the win today but at least try and set the platform for it (if that's the plan).

Let's see if one of these two can take a leaf out of the Australian book. See off the first 30-40 mins of the session and then try and get on top of the bowling if possible. Nothing too venomous thus far but all it takes is one good ball from India and their tails will be up. England should aim to be around 130-1 around lunch. They can't go too slowly.

Having said that; wouldn't mind seeing India do well too. I'm quite neutral in this one.
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Post by guildfordbat Fri 11 Jul 2014, 10:55 am

I just hope England's batting heads aren't scrambled going into day 3 - unsure whether the target is 258 to avoid the follow on or 600 plus to try for an innings win on the last day ....

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Post by alfie Fri 11 Jul 2014, 11:09 am

Too much about targets... Play the next ball properly - its the only one that can get you out.
Bat five overs. Bat another five. Be looking to score whenever you can , but don't preplan any big assault while you're 400 behind. You stay in , you'll score runs. The bowlers will get tired and run gathering will get easier. See where you are at lunch , tea , stumps.
Simple game really. Especially on a pitch like this.
The Indian last pair showed that.

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Post by GSC Fri 11 Jul 2014, 11:36 am

Sedate first half hour, England won't be complaining. Little sign of swing.
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Post by guildfordbat Fri 11 Jul 2014, 11:38 am

Good sensible start to the day by England's batters.

As Alfie suggests, whatever the size of the elephant you can only eat it one bite at a time. We're doing that well at the moment. Just carry on calmly ....

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Post by alfie Fri 11 Jul 2014, 11:44 am

guildfordbat wrote:Yeah, I think India will be satisfied with 450 although not ecstatic. It should be enough here to at least set them on the way to a draw. However, once you take account of the time it took for them to accumulate that total, probably not significant enough for them to force a win unless England seriously foul up.

The need for a full time spinner was really shown during that 10th wicket partnership (incredibly intelligent batting by numbers 10 and 11). Even if he (whoever he is) is not good enough to take many wickets, we still require someone who can at least dry up the runs and give the seamers a more meaningful break. They were dead on their feet before tea.

I think that is a very good summation , guildford. Your emphasis on the intelligent approach of Kumar and Shami makes a lot more sense than the knee jerk demands for Cook's head that I have seen in some places as a response to the last wicket stand. They realized England's bowlers were getting close to their limits as a threat after a day and a half on this putrid strip , bided their time , and picked them off ...didn't even need more than the odd stroke of luck.
Actually thought Cook , in contrast to some earlier tail end partnerships against him , did all he reasonably could to engineer a breakthrough ; but the pitch and the tired bowling rendered all efforts in vain...
Your point about the spinner is well taken also : Not sure anyone England could put up at present would have been likely to present a much greater threat than Ali on this ; but decent containing bowling would have ensured maybe the same figures from twice the overs , and extended the cutting edge of the quicks. If pitches are going to be like this , that is vital to keep Jimmy and Broad going for five Tests...and England need those two if they're going to win the series.
Who ? Not sure : would Kerrigan be able to keep an end tight ? Perhaps the idea you advanced a week or two back isn't as "Batty" as one might think  Smile 

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Post by dummy_half Fri 11 Jul 2014, 11:50 am

Difficult to know how good a total of 450 really was - some good batting, some failures, a collapse and a 100+ run 10th wicket partnership mean that at various times India would have been looking at 550+ then 375 as realstic targets. Ended up falling in between.

Not a great Test match wicket -not enough for the bowlers and not enough pace for strokeplay to be easy, so always likely to end up as a quite attritional game. Add in England's lack of a genuine front line spin bowler and you have a game that seems to be going nowhere quickly.

So far a decent start to the morning for England - just keep setting the next target (e.g. getting to 100, then lunch), and we shall see where the game is tomorrow afternoon.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 11 Jul 2014, 11:56 am

Eng has done well to not lose a wkt hence the hour belongs to them.
Ind hasn't let the game get away keeping RR at 2.4
whihc means a couple of quick wkts and Ind has a strangle hold.

Indian bowlers have not bowled bad given the pitch...Dhoni standing up to Bhuvi has been a good move.
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Post by Liam Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:01 pm

Ideally these two set the platform for Bell to come in and play positively and up the scoring rate and pile on the runs. Hopefully these two can see it through till lunch and bat all day. Robson looking very good.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:19 pm

2.4 is ok for england - who are only looking at the draw- we know how tough it is to score- compared to Indians 2.8- and wasting up two days - it looks like its gonna rain at certain points- they is no realistic chance of an England win.. Draw is huge fav.

I hate test matches with No DRS though. It sucks

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:31 pm

Robson dropped by Kohli at leg-slip. Tough chance but those probably need to be taken if India are to force a result here.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:34 pm

Balance with 3 4's off one over- 

Very nice.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:36 pm

Ballance has suddenly got going and has promptly overtaken Robson who's been somewhat becalmed recently. I think this tells us more about these two's temperament than their actual "pure" batting ability given the pitch, but they're doing a fine job so far.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:39 pm

dhoni over-bolwing Ishant and that released an hour long built up of pressure
Jadeja could get a wicket any over
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Post by mystiroakey Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:41 pm

what a shot that was by ballance.

the balls are just sitting up. I wouldn't even think Mitch would like to Bounce them in on this wicket

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:42 pm

50 for Ballance clap. Doing his best to nail down the n°3 position for the foreseeable future. and also the 100 partnership.

Anyone reckon Ashwin should be playing, would surely be more threatening than Binny, who didn't exactly look a great batsman either?

England also really need to sort out their spinner problem.

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Post by alfie Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:42 pm

Good fifty Ballance  clap 

Has rather taken over from Robson...he's also rather hogged the strike lately , in fairness.
Would like to see Robson turning the strike over a bit more ; don't want him getting becalmed , nerves can build then and that's when mistakes are made...

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Post by KP_fan Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:42 pm

Pitch not the least supportive of Binny's style of bowling and he is bowling a bit short to make things worse
he's gotta pitch it up
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Post by NickisBHAFC Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:44 pm

Very good morning session. Ballence and Robson clearing up Cook's mess.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:45 pm

Shot Robson - good 50

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Fri 11 Jul 2014, 12:45 pm

and now 50 for Robson too, Binny just too short and leaking runs, Dhoni should put a third man in maybe...

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