Guinness PRO12 Fixtures

First topic message reminder :

Not seen this yet but here first 2 rounds of fixtures:

5/6/7 Sep Connacht Rugby v Newport Gwent Dragons Sportsground

5/6/7 Sep Glasgow Warriors v Leinster Rugby Scotstoun Stadium

5/6/7 Sep Munster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby Thomond Park

5/6/7 Sep Ospreys v Benetton Treviso Liberty Stadium

5/6/7 Sep Scarlets v Ulster Rugby Parc y Scarlets

5/6/7 Sep Zebre v Cardiff Blues Stadio XXV Aprile

12/13/14 Sep Benetton Treviso v Munster Rugby Stadio Monigo

12/13/14 Sep Cardiff Blues v Glasgow Warriors BT Sport Cardiff Arms Park

12/13/14 Sep Edinburgh Rugby v Connacht Rugby BT Murrayfield

12/13/14 Sep Leinster Rugby v Scarlets RDS Arena

12/13/14 Sep Newport Gwent Dragons v Ospreys Rodney Parade

12/13/14 Sep Ulster Rugby v Zebre Kingspan Stadium

Nive early season home derby for us agains the Os, 2 big games for the Scarlets to get their season up and running

"The English aren't leaving anyone behind,they are stagnant as the salary cap restricts them from having truly top class squads.Toulon are the only French team that are ahead of the pack,all the rest are around the same level as their pro 12 rivals.Leinster beat Castres home and away last year while the Ospreys beat them once,Ulster did the same to Leicester and Montpellier,Munster hammered Toulouse,Cardiiff were the only team to beat Toulon in Europe."

Absolutely true, Toulon are the big bullies in the playground and some of the English clubs want to tag along but just aren't hard enough.

Scrumpy wrote:

Notch wrote:You can get English commentary on the red button though

Thats what I'm saying Notch it doesn't always work on S4C on freesat.

Ahh, well that sucks. Mind you the commentators speak so much tom kite you might be better off not understanding what they say!

Of course the English are leaving the celtic nations behind. They play in one of the best leagues in the world and reap ££££s sponsorships and tv deals as a result.

How much do Guinness sponsor the pro12 per year?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Of course the English are leaving the celtic nations behind. They play in one of the best leagues in the world and reap ££££s sponsorships and tv deals as a result.

How much do Guinness sponsor the pro12 per year?

Always looking for the handout Chunky   

The money for sponsorship will increase when the Welsh teams develop a fan base.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Of course the English are leaving the celtic nations behind. They play in one of the best leagues in the world and reap ££££s sponsorships and tv deals as a result.

How much do Guinness sponsor the pro12 per year?

Best leagues in the world? Hmmmm, not convinced about that. Certainly one of the most profitable leagues. But the thing is, their income is pretty much only from that league and the European league.

We're funded by the Pro12 and European Cup, but also by the Rugby World Cup, Six Nations and various other test matches so we're not sweating it that much. Once the income from international rugby is factored in what we have in terms of budget for our provinces is on par with the English clubs and is actually higher than many English clubs.

Now if you're a Welsh region it's verrrrry different. You're on what amounts to starvation rations. But thats not the fault of the Pro12, it's the fault of the WRU. Thats where you should be directing your invective. The design of the Pro12 was to concentrate players in fewer Union-funded teams and therefore be able to match the other big clubs around Europe but the WRU is different to everyone else because they decided to do it on the cheap by letting outside investors take the financial burden.

As for the Pro12, as I said it's growing in stature every season and constantly improving. Instead of complaining, its in the best interests of the Welsh to help it grow and not hold it back. What the Welsh need to do is figure out how to pool the income of the national side and the regions into one pot to fund contracts for their best players.

In the long-run, sponsorship for the other leagues will level out and the Pro12 will start to catch up. The deal with Sky Sports will see more people than ever before watching the Pro12 and our sponsorship will be getting more valuable every season.

Don't hold your breath then Sin e!

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Of course the English are leaving the celtic nations behind. They play in one of the best leagues in the world and reap ££££s sponsorships and tv deals as a result.

How much do Guinness sponsor the pro12 per year?

Always looking for the handout Chunky   

The money for sponsorship will increase when the Welsh teams develop a fan base.

As I said yesterday, a handout is something you get for free. The league that rakes in £22m were more than happy to plan for Welsh teams to join. So I don't think they are the problem.

How much do Guinness sponsor the Pants12 again?

 x5

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Of course the English are leaving the celtic nations behind. They play in one of the best leagues in the world and reap ££££s sponsorships and tv deals as a result.

How much do Guinness sponsor the pro12 per year?

Always looking for the handout Chunky   

The money for sponsorship will increase when the Welsh teams develop a fan base.

As I said yesterday, a handout is something you get for free. The league that rakes in £22m were more than happy to plan for Welsh teams to join. So I don't think they are the problem.

How much do Guinness sponsor the Pants12 again?

So what is in it for Guinness to sponsor the 'Pants12' then?

Notch wrote:

Best leagues in the world? Hmmmm, not convinced about that. Certainly one of the most profitable leagues. But the thing is, their income is pretty much only from that league and the European league.

We're funded by the Pro12 and European Cup, but also by the Rugby World Cup, Six Nations and various other test matches so we're not sweating it that much. Once the income from international rugby is factored in what we have in terms of budget for our provinces is on par with the English clubs and is actually higher than many English clubs.

Now if you're a Welsh region it's verrrrry different. You're on what amounts to starvation rations. But thats not the fault of the Pro12, it's the fault of the WRU. Thats where you should be directing your invective. The design of the Pro12 was to concentrate players in fewer Union-funded teams and therefore be able to match the other big clubs around Europe but the WRU is different to everyone else because they decided to do it on the cheap by letting outside investors take the financial burden.

Don't disagree with much of that.

As for the Pro12, as I said it's growing in stature every season and constantly improving. Instead of complaining, its in the best interests of the Welsh to help it grow and not hold it back. What the Welsh need to do is figure out how to pool the income of the national side and the regions into one pot to fund contracts for their best players.

That won't happen because the WRU want to kill off the regions not help them.

In the long-run, sponsorship for the other leagues will level out and the Pro12 will start to catch up. The deal with Sky Sports will see more people than ever before watching the Pro12 and our sponsorship will be getting more valuable every season.

How long will this take? The competition could be way ahead by then.

Sin é wrote:

So what is in it for Guinness to sponsor the 'Pants12' then?

Exactly. I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. The sponsorship amounts are presumably so embarrassing that they are reluctant to even publish them.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

So what is in it for Guinness to sponsor the 'Pants12' then?

Exactly. I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. The sponsorship amounts are presumably so embarrassing that they are reluctant to even publish them.

So, we agree. You are looking for a handout from Guinness as there is nothing in it for them.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:

Best leagues in the world? Hmmmm, not convinced about that. Certainly one of the most profitable leagues. But the thing is, their income is pretty much only from that league and the European league.

We're funded by the Pro12 and European Cup, but also by the Rugby World Cup, Six Nations and various other test matches so we're not sweating it that much. Once the income from international rugby is factored in what we have in terms of budget for our provinces is on par with the English clubs and is actually higher than many English clubs.

Now if you're a Welsh region it's verrrrry different. You're on what amounts to starvation rations. But thats not the fault of the Pro12, it's the fault of the WRU. Thats where you should be directing your invective. The design of the Pro12 was to concentrate players in fewer Union-funded teams and therefore be able to match the other big clubs around Europe but the WRU is different to everyone else because they decided to do it on the cheap by letting outside investors take the financial burden.

Don't disagree with much of that.

As for the Pro12, as I said it's growing in stature every season and constantly improving. Instead of complaining, its in the best interests of the Welsh to help it grow and not hold it back. What the Welsh need to do is figure out how to pool the income of the national side and the regions into one pot to fund contracts for their best players.

That won't happen because the WRU want to kill off the regions not help them.

In the long-run, sponsorship for the other leagues will level out and the Pro12 will start to catch up. The deal with Sky Sports will see more people than ever before watching the Pro12 and our sponsorship will be getting more valuable every season.

How long will this take? The competition could be way ahead by then.

I doubt they will get too far ahead IF the WRU and the regions can work it out. If the Unions subsidise the teams we'll see that gap closing sooner than you'd think. After all the reason the English are so far ahead in terms of sponsorship is the profile their league has, a profile created by Sky Sports. Sky Sports getting involved in the Pro12 will be a catalyst for more investment in this league.

If the WRU and RRW don't work out a deal which is fair to the regions financially it's not the French and English you need to worry about falling behind; it's the Irish and Scottish.

By the way, I really believe the WRU should be funding the regions more. The relationship between them only works if the Union can afford to keep them competitive and fund them enough for them to retain their players. I genuinely believe the WRU are the biggest obstacle to the Pro12 being successful.

Sin é wrote:

So, we agree. You are looking for a handout from Guinness as there is nothing in it for them.

No, I'm pointing out how worthless the league is. It doesn't deserve to have major money chucked at it. It has never even attracted a million pound plus deal per year.

To put it into context, the football conference gets more in sponsorship per year. And that's not even fully professional sport.

Notch wrote:

I doubt they will get too far ahead IF the WRU and the regions can work it out. If the Unions subsidise the teams we'll see that gap closing sooner than you'd think. After all the reason the English are so far ahead in terms of sponsorship is the profile their league has, a profile created by Sky Sports. Sky Sports getting involved in the Pro12 will be a catalyst for more investment in this league.

So if the regions and WRU sort out their bickering, Celtic and Italian rugby will be competitive with Toulon and Clermont?

You're placing far too much hope on Sky Sports.

If the WRU and RRW don't work out a deal which is fair to the regions financially it's not the French and English you need to worry about falling behind; it's the Irish and Scottish.

I'm not even talking about the welsh regions, I'm talking about the celtic teams as a whole. If there is no British and Irish League in the next 3 years, it could start a unrecoverable decline.

By the way, I really believe the WRU should be funding the regions more. The relationship between them only works if the Union can afford to keep them competitive and fund them enough for them to retain their players. I genuinely believe the WRU are the biggest obstacle to the Pro12 being successful.

So you agree the pro12 isn't successful? That's a start.

And Dublin GAA have the best sponsorship deal in the Republic of Ireland (although Kilkenny & Kerry would be the top teams).

All down to population base.

Chunky, So how much is Vanarama paying to title sponsor the Football Conference?

Sin é wrote:
Chunky, So how much is Vanarama paying to title sponsor the Football Conference?

£750k per year

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Chunky, So how much is Vanarama paying to title sponsor the Football Conference?

£750k per year

Crickey, I thought you were going to come up with a couple of million bearing in mind that there 24 teams involved.   

Since you don't know the value of the Guinness Sponsorship, how can you compare it unfavourably.

(For the record, no one seems to know how much it is worth).

You guys should ditch the Welsh Regions and go it alone.

Welsh rugby needs to set up its own league structure and knock the Regions experiment on the head.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Chunky, So how much is Vanarama paying to title sponsor the Football Conference?

£750k per year

Crickey, I thought you were going to come up with a couple of million bearing in mind that there 24 teams involved.   

Since you don't know the value of the Guinness Sponsorship, how can you compare it unfavourably.

(For the record, no one seems to know how much it is worth).

I've heard £750k a year for Guinness. But as I said, they are too embarrassed to publish the figure.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

So if the regions and WRU sort out their bickering, Celtic and Italian rugby will be competitive with Toulon and Clermont?

You're placing far too much hope on Sky Sports.

Nope, it means that the top teams in the Pro12 will be competitive (and are - even Cardiff - bottom part of the league - managed to beat Toulon last season).

I'm not even talking about the welsh regions, I'm talking about the celtic teams as a whole. If there is no British and Irish League in the next 3 years, it could start a unrecoverable decline.

I fail to see how Leinster playing Newcastle in a leauge is going to improve their chances when playing against the top French clubs (particularly when they are playing in a competition when they regularly play against top French & English competition).

One really good think in the Pro12 that helps in competing in Europe is the variety of styles of rugby teams encounter and of course the amount of travel involved, regularly staying away in another country etc.

So you agree the pro12 isn't successful? That's a start.

You have to work at building a league. It can take years. Sky as broadcaster for the Heineken Cup made that competition. I expect the same will happen with the Pro12.


[/quote]

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Chunky, So how much is Vanarama paying to title sponsor the Football Conference?

£750k per year

Crickey, I thought you were going to come up with a couple of million bearing in mind that there 24 teams involved.   

Since you don't know the value of the Guinness Sponsorship, how can you compare it unfavourably.

(For the record, no one seems to know how much it is worth).

I've heard £750k a year for Guinness. But as I said, they are too embarrassed to publish the figure.

A large component of that sponsorship will probably go into promoting the league (i.e., they are making an ad based on Munster v All Blacks to run in UK cinemas). That will cost a few bob to do that.

Sin é wrote:

Nope, it means that the top teams in the Pro12 will be competitive (and are - even Cardiff - bottom part of the league - managed to beat Toulon last season).

I fail to see how Leinster playing Newcastle in a leauge is going to improve their chances when playing against the top French clubs (particularly when they are playing in a competition when they regularly play against top French & English competition).

Why would they be playing against Newcastle? More likely be a top division of the top few english clubs, top few irish clubs, top couple of welsh clubs, top scottish club etc. The reality is that we've missed the boat now. The French and English have great settled leagues.

One really good think in the Pro12 that helps in competing in Europe is the variety of styles of rugby teams encounter and of course the amount of travel involved, regularly staying away in another country etc.

No, that's a bad thing. Because the logistics are too complicated to make it a simple sellable product. That's what makes the top14 and aviva so successful. Streamlined kick off times, no hour changes, one broadcaster to negotiate.

You have to work at building a league. It can take years. Sky as broadcaster for the Heineken Cup made that competition. I expect the same will happen with the Pro12.

The difference being that Sky's most shown team next season will be Glasgow. No offence to Glasgow but they are hardly Leicester Tigers.

It's been 12 years now. How long will we have to wait?

Sin é wrote:
A large component of that sponsorship will probably go into promoting the league (i.e., they are making an ad based on Munster v All Blacks to run in UK cinemas). That will cost a few bob to do that.

Good to know the money is being spent on top priorities.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:
A large component of that sponsorship will probably go into promoting the league (i.e., they are making an ad based on Munster v All Blacks to run in UK cinemas). That will cost a few bob to do that.

Good to know the money is being spent on top priorities.

Promoting the league is a top priority.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:

I doubt they will get too far ahead IF the WRU and the regions can work it out. If the Unions subsidise the teams we'll see that gap closing sooner than you'd think. After all the reason the English are so far ahead in terms of sponsorship is the profile their league has, a profile created by Sky Sports. Sky Sports getting involved in the Pro12 will be a catalyst for more investment in this league.

So if the regions and WRU sort out their bickering, Celtic and Italian rugby will be competitive with Toulon and Clermont?

You're placing far too much hope on Sky Sports.

If the WRU and RRW don't work out a deal which is fair to the regions financially it's not the French and English you need to worry about falling behind; it's the Irish and Scottish.

I'm not even talking about the welsh regions, I'm talking about the celtic teams as a whole. If there is no British and Irish League in the next 3 years, it could start a unrecoverable decline.

By the way, I really believe the WRU should be funding the regions more. The relationship between them only works if the Union can afford to keep them competitive and fund them enough for them to retain their players. I genuinely believe the WRU are the biggest obstacle to the Pro12 being successful.

So you agree the pro12 isn't successful? That's a start.

With all due respect, we (the Irish provinces) are already competitive with Toulon and Clermont. Not just on the pitch but off the pitch as well with several players turning down big money approaches from Toulon last summer to stay in the Pro12 including Ruan Pienaar, Jamie Heaslip and Sean O'Brien- and all of those signed on before the peace deal over Europe was agreed. It's going to be tough to stay that way but I don't see us falling off the pace too much because we still have the IRFU in our corner.

No, I'm focusing on the Welsh because they are the great underachievers. The Scottish and Italians are always going to be massively up against it given rugs fringe status in their countries in any format but they can point to green shoots as a result of being part of this league. The Irish have overachieved. It's the Welsh who are having problems.

The Pro12 is very successful for us (the Irish), considering the alternatives. There are no realistic alternatives for anyone else in this league and it's growing, so no I don't agree it isn't successful. At all. I take a holistic view of rugby so I measure the success of the pro12 not just on the financial side but also in how well it prepares players for the European Cup and test rugby and it's been wildly successful in this sense for the Irish- and its been successful in preparing Welsh players for test rugby too.

Notch wrote:

With all due respect, we (the Irish provinces) are already competitive with Toulon and Clermont. Not just on the pitch but off the pitch as well with several players turning down big money approaches from Toulon last summer to stay in the Pro12 including Ruan Pienaar, Jamie Heaslip and Sean O'Brien- and all of those signed on before the peace deal over Europe was agreed. It's going to be tough to stay that way but I don't see us falling off the pace too much.

Ha. Just because a player turned a team down doesn't mean they are on a level playing field!!!

Toulon budget = 25m Euros
Munster - owe the IRFU 10m Euros

The Pro12 is very successful for us, considering the alternatives. There are no realistic alternatives for anyone else in this league and it's growing so no I don't agree it isn't successful. I take a holistic view of rugby so I measure the success of the pro12 not just on the financial side but also in how well it prepares players for the European Cup and test rugby and it's been wildly successful for the Irish- and its been successful in preparing Welsh players for test rugby too.

The pro12 is not of the standard to prepare welsh players. Warren Gatland agrees.

Irish teams are so far ahead in terms of squads that they are able to rest their best players all the time for Europe and therefore are better conditioned for that and test games.

I don't blame you in thinking that everything is fine though - because it suits you. Irish rugby is reaping the rewards that directly contribute to the failure of others. Why would you change that?

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:

I doubt they will get too far ahead IF the WRU and the regions can work it out. If the Unions subsidise the teams we'll see that gap closing sooner than you'd think. After all the reason the English are so far ahead in terms of sponsorship is the profile their league has, a profile created by Sky Sports. Sky Sports getting involved in the Pro12 will be a catalyst for more investment in this league.

So if the regions and WRU sort out their bickering, Celtic and Italian rugby will be competitive with Toulon and Clermont?

You're placing far too much hope on Sky Sports.

If the WRU and RRW don't work out a deal which is fair to the regions financially it's not the French and English you need to worry about falling behind; it's the Irish and Scottish.

I'm not even talking about the welsh regions, I'm talking about the celtic teams as a whole. If there is no British and Irish League in the next 3 years, it could start a unrecoverable decline.

By the way, I really believe the WRU should be funding the regions more. The relationship between them only works if the Union can afford to keep them competitive and fund them enough for them to retain their players. I genuinely believe the WRU are the biggest obstacle to the Pro12 being successful.

So you agree the pro12 isn't successful? That's a start.

With all due respect, we (the Irish provinces) are already competitive with Toulon and Clermont. Not just on the pitch but off the pitch as well with several players turning down big money approaches from Toulon last summer to stay in the Pro12 including Ruan Pienaar, Jamie Heaslip and Sean O'Brien- and all of those signed on before the peace deal over Europe was agreed. It's going to be tough to stay that way but I don't see us falling off the pace too much because we still have the IRFU in our corner.

The Pro12 is very successful for us, considering the alternatives. There are no realistic alternatives for anyone else in this league and it's growing, so no I don't agree it isn't successful. At all. I take a holistic view of rugby so I measure the success of the pro12 not just on the financial side but also in how well it prepares players for the European Cup and test rugby and it's been wildly successful in this sense for the Irish- and its been successful in preparing Welsh players for test rugby too.

+1+1+1+1+1 Notch. Well said that man.

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:

I doubt they will get too far ahead IF the WRU and the regions can work it out. If the Unions subsidise the teams we'll see that gap closing sooner than you'd think. After all the reason the English are so far ahead in terms of sponsorship is the profile their league has, a profile created by Sky Sports. Sky Sports getting involved in the Pro12 will be a catalyst for more investment in this league.

So if the regions and WRU sort out their bickering, Celtic and Italian rugby will be competitive with Toulon and Clermont?

You're placing far too much hope on Sky Sports.

If the WRU and RRW don't work out a deal which is fair to the regions financially it's not the French and English you need to worry about falling behind; it's the Irish and Scottish.

I'm not even talking about the welsh regions, I'm talking about the celtic teams as a whole. If there is no British and Irish League in the next 3 years, it could start a unrecoverable decline.

By the way, I really believe the WRU should be funding the regions more. The relationship between them only works if the Union can afford to keep them competitive and fund them enough for them to retain their players. I genuinely believe the WRU are the biggest obstacle to the Pro12 being successful.

So you agree the pro12 isn't successful? That's a start.

With all due respect, we (the Irish provinces) are already competitive with Toulon and Clermont. Not just on the pitch but off the pitch as well with several players turning down big money approaches from Toulon last summer to stay in the Pro12 including Ruan Pienaar, Jamie Heaslip and Sean O'Brien- and all of those signed on before the peace deal over Europe was agreed. It's going to be tough to stay that way but I don't see us falling off the pace too much because we still have the IRFU in our corner.

The Pro12 is very successful for us, considering the alternatives. There are no realistic alternatives for anyone else in this league and it's growing, so no I don't agree it isn't successful. At all. I take a holistic view of rugby so I measure the success of the pro12 not just on the financial side but also in how well it prepares players for the European Cup and test rugby and it's been wildly successful in this sense for the Irish- and its been successful in preparing Welsh players for test rugby too.

Notch

Didn't the Welsh regions and fans keep saying that thought when the first WQ and NWQ players started to leave, that it was just the odd player, it will stem?

Sexton leaving was the start, it'll only take 1 bad season for Leinster, or Ulster to not qualify for the HC and they will be forced to let players leave, once that happens it's a slippery slope. I havn't included munster because they are a deluded bunch of #### I think that region has the strongest fanbase and playerbase/loyalty of anyone in the NH.

Don't you worry that the Welsh regions, while being privately owned have the potential to blow the Irish teams away like the French and English are starting to threaten too. I don't mean that disrespecfully but if the RRW manages to win a few key battles over the WRU we could see Blues and Ospreys decide to run Toulon style organisations, then renegotiate league structure etc, or even with the kind of power they could curry leave and join the Aviva (I know it's not likely right now but a Toulon style region would be very attractive to allow entry under the PRL umbrella)

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would they be playing against Newcastle? More likely be a top division of the top few english clubs, top few irish clubs, top couple of welsh clubs, top scottish club etc. The reality is that we've missed the boat now. The French and English have great settled leagues.

Even though the Pro12 is apparently a poor league, they yet seem to outshine the PRL teams when it comes to competing in Europe. How did the Irish Provinces get to be so competitive in Europe playing in such a Poopie league?

No, that's a bad thing. Because the logistics are too complicated to make it a simple sellable product. That's what makes the top14 and aviva so successful. Streamlined kick off times, no hour changes, one broadcaster to negotiate.

Neither of those leagues get as good as tv coverage as the Pro12 though. And, I'm not sure that there would be one broadcaster in a B&I competition (unless it goes to Sky). BT Sport do not broadcast in ROI. The Republic of Ireland have their own broadcasters   

The difference being that Sky's most shown team next season will be Glasgow. No offence to Glasgow but they are hardly Leicester Tigers.

You probably won't see Glasgow again after Christmas (as Sky only get the option to screen one game of two). For example, if they are showing Glasgow v Cardiff, they can show Cardiff v Glasgow.

They are showing Leinster v Munster in the Aviva in October, but they can't show the Munster v Leinster game - thats with TG4.



It's been 12 years now. How long will we have to wait?[/quote]

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would they be playing against Newcastle? More likely be a top division of the top few english clubs, top few irish clubs, top couple of welsh clubs, top scottish club etc. The reality is that we've missed the boat now. The French and English have great settled leagues.

Even though the Pro12 is apparently a poor league, they yet seem to outshine the PRL teams when it comes to competing in Europe. How did the Irish Provinces get to be so competitive in Europe playing in such a Poopie league?

That's because before and in-between HC games players have a rest as most of the league games are meaningless, don't get me wrong you guys get players to peak at the right time, that is something the Jeff could learn from.

I thought that was a well known F A C T!

I'm sorry but the main people directly contributing to the failure of Welsh teams are almost all in Wales. When the Irish joined Celtic Rugby, the Welsh had more of everything- more teams, more players, more money, more fans, more stadiums, more sponsorship. They should be dominating this league given the head start they had over everyone else and now that they aren't, thats really their own fault. There was a time when Munster et al. would play the likes of Cardiff RFC and would consistently lose. Every Welsh fan will give you a long list of terrible decisions that brought them to this crisis point. This is no system that was set-up to benefit the Irish and screw everyone else. This competition was set-up by the Scottish and Welsh and we were the johnny-come-latelys. We've just made the best of it.

I didn't say we have the same money as Toulon, or the same budgetary levels, I said we're competitive with them and that is true. We can hold onto players even though they can outbid us. We can also challenge them on the pitch.

Everything isn't plain sailing with the money sloshing around in England and France but we're tenaciously holding our own and we look to be in a good position. The only way to better that position is to improve on all fronts.

Sin é wrote:

Even though the Pro12 is apparently a poor league, they yet seem to outshine the PRL teams when it comes to competing in Europe. How did the Irish Provinces get to be so competitive in Europe playing in such a Poopie league?

3 teams out of 12. Who dominate the league and rest their players for Europe.

3 teams.

Neither of those leagues get as good as tv coverage as the Pro12 though.

Exactly!!! They pay millions more and cover less games. What does that tell you?

And, I'm not sure that there would be one broadcaster in a B&I competition (unless it goes to Sky). BT Sport do not broadcast in ROI. The Republic of Ireland have their own broadcasters   

You can't get BT Sport through Setanta in ROI?

You probably won't see Glasgow again after Christmas (as Sky only get the option to screen one game of two). For example, if they are showing Glasgow v Cardiff, they can show Cardiff v Glasgow.

They are showing Leinster v Munster in the Aviva in October, but they can't show the Munster v Leinster game - thats with TG4.

Ifs and buts.

Glasgow are currently the most covered team on sky sports. That's a fact.

Chunky Norwich wrote:3 teams out of 12. Who dominate the league and rest their players for Europe.

3 teams..

Aye and there's about the same in the other leagues- 2 or 3 teams in the Premiership and 2 or 3 teams in the Top14 that dominate their leagues and do best in Europe. In the Premiership it's Saracens, Saints and Northampton. In the Top14 its Toulon and Clermont with a few others mixed in.

And don't tell me those teams don't rotate their squads either...

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Glasgow are currently the most covered team on sky sports. That's a fact.

Glasgow are having faster growth in their crowds than almost any other team, have a squad packed with current Scottish internationals, got to the Final last year and to top it off they play some of the best rugby in the competition. Go on youtube and look at their best tries over the past few years and you'll very quickly realise why Sky Sports are so keen to cover their games. It's not an accident

Chunky, I understand that you are not happy with the Pro12 set up, but I don't see what the alternatives for Welsh rugby (which I presume is your main concern) actually are.
As you say, the boat has sailed on the idea of any form of cross border league be it an Anglo-Welsh or a wider GB or GB and Ireland league so that avenue is closed (at least for the short to medium term), Wales can't sustain a high level league on it's own, unless you believe that there are millionaires waiting in the wings to jump into funding half a dozen Welsh Championship sides, so literally the only game in town is the Pro12 if Wales wishes to have top level full time professional rugby.
I can sympathise with you regarding some of the points made about the difficulties involved, the distance between teams, lack of travelling support, the comparatively low levels of TV and sponsorship income, but equally it's fair to say the most of the problems afflicting Welsh club rugby are the result of the conflict between RRW and the WRU in Wales, all the other participant nations are signed up and have been since the whole HEC replacement saga was patched up, it's only Welsh rugby that is still in crisis at this stage and even if Guiness were sponsoring the Pro12 with £750 million pounds a season, hand on heart would that really solve the problems between the Regions and WRU?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

3 teams out of 12. Who dominate the league and rest their players for Europe.

3 teams.

Name me more than 3 teams in the PRL that dominate the league. (though I would say that Ospreys were putting in a good fight in the Pro12 up to recently).

Neither of those leagues get as good as tv coverage as the Pro12 though.

Exactly!!! They pay millions more and cover less games. What does that tell you?[/quote]
That BT Sport is in a big battle with Sky Sports and BeiN with Canal+ is in a battle for media sports rights in France. (Note the New Chumps Cup valued at 27m (minimum) only got 10m tender for rights in France.

And, I'm not sure that there would be one broadcaster in a B&I competition (unless it goes to Sky). BT Sport do not broadcast in ROI. The Republic of Ireland have their own broadcasters   

You can't get BT Sport through Setanta in ROI?

Secondary rights. BT Sport could not broadcast from ROI as they are not licencensed to do so.

[quote]You probably won't see Glasgow again after Christmas (as Sky only get the option to screen one game of two). For example, if they are showing Glasgow v Cardiff, they can show Cardiff v Glasgow.

Ifs and buts.

Glasgow are currently the most covered team on sky sports. That's a fact.

Fact. The games that Sky are covering that involve Glasgow are against Leinster, Ulster & Munster - all in the playoffs last season.

Irish Londoner wrote:Chunky, I understand that you are not happy with the Pro12 set up, but I don't see what the alternatives for Welsh rugby (which I presume is your main concern) actually are.
As you say, the boat has sailed on the idea of any form of cross border league be it an Anglo-Welsh or a wider GB or GB and Ireland league so that avenue is closed (at least for the short to medium term), Wales can't sustain a high level league on it's own, unless you believe that there are millionaires waiting in the wings to jump into funding half a dozen Welsh Championship sides, so literally the only game in town is the Pro12 if Wales wishes to have top level full time professional rugby.
I can sympathise with you regarding some of the points made about the difficulties involved, the distance between teams, lack of travelling support, the comparatively low levels of TV and sponsorship income, but equally it's fair to say the most of the problems afflicting Welsh club rugby are the result of the conflict between RRW and the WRU in Wales, all the other participant nations are signed up and have been since the whole HEC replacement saga was patched up, it's only Welsh rugby that is still in crisis at this stage and even if Guiness were sponsoring the Pro12 with £750 million pounds a season, hand on heart would that really solve the problems between the Regions and WRU?

The problems are exclusive though aren't they.If the regions and WRU signed a fair deal today, the pro12 would still have issues. I agree with many of your points. It's the only game in town. Doesn't mean it's the perfect game though.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Chunky, I understand that you are not happy with the Pro12 set up, but I don't see what the alternatives for Welsh rugby (which I presume is your main concern) actually are.
As you say, the boat has sailed on the idea of any form of cross border league be it an Anglo-Welsh or a wider GB or GB and Ireland league so that avenue is closed (at least for the short to medium term), Wales can't sustain a high level league on it's own, unless you believe that there are millionaires waiting in the wings to jump into funding half a dozen Welsh Championship sides, so literally the only game in town is the Pro12 if Wales wishes to have top level full time professional rugby.
I can sympathise with you regarding some of the points made about the difficulties involved, the distance between teams, lack of travelling support, the comparatively low levels of TV and sponsorship income, but equally it's fair to say the most of the problems afflicting Welsh club rugby are the result of the conflict between RRW and the WRU in Wales, all the other participant nations are signed up and have been since the whole HEC replacement saga was patched up, it's only Welsh rugby that is still in crisis at this stage and even if Guiness were sponsoring the Pro12 with £750 million pounds a season, hand on heart would that really solve the problems between the Regions and WRU?

The problems are exclusive though aren't they.If the regions and WRU signed a fair deal today, the pro12 would still have issues. I agree with many of your points. It's the only game in town. Doesn't mean it's the perfect game though.

There you go then. It seems you would rather pour scorn on "the only game in town" to chase a pipe dream that, even if it came true, would see the Welsh as tame pets of the PRL rather than equal partners in a league with others.

It's your opinion and you are welcome to it, but if I was Welsh I couldn't stomach it.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Chunky, I understand that you are not happy with the Pro12 set up, but I don't see what the alternatives for Welsh rugby (which I presume is your main concern) actually are.
As you say, the boat has sailed on the idea of any form of cross border league be it an Anglo-Welsh or a wider GB or GB and Ireland league so that avenue is closed (at least for the short to medium term), Wales can't sustain a high level league on it's own, unless you believe that there are millionaires waiting in the wings to jump into funding half a dozen Welsh Championship sides, so literally the only game in town is the Pro12 if Wales wishes to have top level full time professional rugby.
I can sympathise with you regarding some of the points made about the difficulties involved, the distance between teams, lack of travelling support, the comparatively low levels of TV and sponsorship income, but equally it's fair to say the most of the problems afflicting Welsh club rugby are the result of the conflict between RRW and the WRU in Wales, all the other participant nations are signed up and have been since the whole HEC replacement saga was patched up, it's only Welsh rugby that is still in crisis at this stage and even if Guiness were sponsoring the Pro12 with £750 million pounds a season, hand on heart would that really solve the problems between the Regions and WRU?

The problems are exclusive though aren't they.If the regions and WRU signed a fair deal today, the pro12 would still have issues. I agree with many of your points. It's the only game in town. Doesn't mean it's the perfect game though.

There you go then. It seems you would rather pour scorn on "the only game in town" to chase a pipe dream that, even if it came true, would see the Welsh as tame pets of the PRL rather than equal partners in a league with others.

It's your opinion and you are welcome to it, but if I was Welsh I couldn't stomach it.

Thankfully you're not Welsh.

Yeah buddy!

I can't see how any sane thinking person could disagree with you Jen. I mean why would anyone shoot themselves in the foot and attempt to justify going from the frying pan to the fire?
Mind you, thankfully when someone acts in that way people tend to quietly ignore them and let them rant on regardless.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:The Pro12 is very successful for us, considering the alternatives. There are no realistic alternatives for anyone else in this league and it's growing so no I don't agree it isn't successful. I take a holistic view of rugby so I measure the success of the pro12 not just on the financial side but also in how well it prepares players for the European Cup and test rugby and it's been wildly successful for the Irish- and its been successful in preparing Welsh players for test rugby too.

The pro12 is not of the standard to prepare welsh players. Warren Gatland agrees.

Yet in the 15 years of the 6N, the players from that league have won 6 championships, compared to 5 from France and 4 from England.

9 to 6 then!   

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:3 teams out of 12. Who dominate the league and rest their players for Europe.

3 teams..

Aye and there's about the same in the other leagues- 2 or 3 teams in the Premiership and 2 or 3 teams in the Top14 that dominate their leagues and do best in Europe. In the Premiership it's Saracens, Saints and Northampton. In the Top14 its Toulon and Clermont with a few others mixed in.

And don't tell me those teams don't rotate their squads either...

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Glasgow are currently the most covered team on sky sports. That's a fact.

Glasgow are having faster growth in their crowds than almost any other team, have a squad packed with current Scottish internationals, got to the Final last year and to top it off they play some of the best rugby in the competition. Go on youtube and look at their best tries over the past few years and you'll very quickly realise why Sky Sports are so keen to cover their games. It's not an accident

....Are the same team....?

Think he meant Leicester.

Sorry meant Saracens, Saints and Tigers   

The Great Aukster wrote:
Yet in the 15 years of the 6N, the players from that league have won 6 championships, compared to 5 from France and 4 from England.

Wales have won twice as many as Ireland. But how can that be? Wales' players are rubbish in their league.

So either:

1) You have stumbled upon a paradox that could form a sound basis for a pHD.
2) Your stat is completely meaningless.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:
Yet in the 15 years of the 6N, the players from that league have won 6 championships, compared to 5 from France and 4 from England.

Wales have won twice as many as Ireland. But how can that be? Wales' players are rubbish in their league.

So either:

1) You have stumbled upon a paradox that could form a sound basis for a pHD.
2) Your stat is completely meaningless.

Or Wales players play better for their country than they do for their "region"? They get better support? They have more cash? Better coaching?

Probably a mixture. Irish players have the opposite problem. There were words exchanged at a training camp before our grand slam in 09 which focused a few minds.

When you look at it. We are "Too Provincial" and have issues putting aside our provinces for the national team (or have been in the past at least)

Welsh are "Not regional enough" In fairness the "regions are only 12 years old and have never made everyone in Wales happy. It seems that if someone tried to make the currently disenfranchised supporters happy it could only be done at the expense of current regional supporters.

And here is something that puzzles me. The regions were set up in order to compete in what is now the pro 12.

So how can someone who loves the regions hate the pro12 so much? It's not computing for me.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:And here is something that puzzles me. The regions were set up in order to compete in what is now the pro 12.

So how can someone who loves the regions hate the pro12 so much? It's not computing for me.

Same questions have popped up on his love of PRL/LNR too.