606v2 Rugby Fans Scottish Independence Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

 v
Let me start this off, then. I have printed and read all literature which either side has published on this debate over the past 2 years (including the main policy papers from the SNP and from Better Together/UK Treasury and the Wee Blue Book).
 
If I had the chance, I would think hard about it, but ultimately I think that I would vote 'no'.
 
It seems to me, with my pea brain, that:
 
1. As a professional economist, Alex Salmond has had his entire political and professional life to make a waterproof financial case for an independent Scotland. Provided that there isn't something I've missed, I cannot see that he has done so. How can we still be fishing for answers to very fundemental questions so close to the actual voting date? Surely if it was the case that Scotland had a solid long term financial future, there would be a far greater volume of published consensus? If the financial case for independence cannot be clearly and verifiably made (without optimistic financial projects which strain credulity), then this is where this debate begins and ends for me. What do we tell our kids otherwise?
 
2. I entirely understand and appreciate that stepping into the unknown cannot in itself be a reason to say 'no'. You cannot have opportunity without risk. However, is anyone else disappointed with the quality of verifiable information that has been made available to us throughout this entire debate? Whilst I don't expect all answers to all questions, surely it is better to err on the side of caution until such time as policy can be firmly established.
 
If this was a trial, the verdict would be 'not proven'.
 
What I don't believe is if Scotland votes no, the chance to do so again would be lost forever. I think that we may see another vote on this topic within a generation (20 years) if a 'no' vote does not have a clear majority amongst Scottish people. I would be happy with that.
 
Discuss. For the love of feck, please be nice.

[Notch]

The Guardian tries to invite different viewpoints and push against its own biases. Its not always successful, it doesn't always live up to its own ideals, but its trying at least. Monbiot has been fairly consistent on this though. Don't mistake the views of a columnist for its editorial line.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Notch - yes aware of that but at least they (Guardian) printed it.

[SecretFly]

Interesting piece.  But then, it's the YES campaign that do the insults and barracking and egg throwing so I probably don't believe the article.... because the No group are just nice people with a lot of famous people saying nice things. They could never insult and mock their Scottish friends up north

The other interesting thing as I read it was that it suddenly came to me - the rest of the UK (famous actors and singers and authors and things) keep saying "I hope the Scots realise we love them and want then to stay.  We don't have a vote so we have to let them know how the rest of us feel about them"

And I think about that and I look at that article, and I say - well, actually maybe you all should have had a vote - the rest of the UK.  I think it actually might not have been the outpouring of love the No camp seem to portray.  If the rest of the UK voted on "Do you want Scotland to remain part of the UK", the reasoning goes and the logic again goes that it certainly wouldn't be 100% YES.  

So???  

What percentage would it be, do you think?  

The genuine answer might get embarrassing for those South of the border who think Separatists only exist North of that border.  I think many in the present NO camp are only too delighted they didn't get a vote.  That result might have thrown up a hornet's nest of trouble.... even if Scotland itself finally voted NO.

[quinsforever]

the reason that media coverage has leaned towards NO is that journalists are supposed to be analytical and somewhat balanced (within the remit of the leanings of their organisation).

the YES campaign requires a leap of faith. nothing wrong with that. But difficult for seasoned journalists to chuck away decades of training and just go with the flow of the promise of shangri-la, when analytically the risks are huge, Salmond is playing massive stakes poker, and the outcome is highly uncertain.

[quinsforever]

Irony of all this is that the Tories are going to get exactly what they want:

- no breakup of the Union
- no votes for Scots MPs at Westminster on non-Scots issues (which will be many once the new extra powers are granted, allegedly)
- therefore, much reduced ability for Labour to form a government capable of passing motions on issues affecting England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

[Notch]

Notch - yes aware of that but at least they (Guardian) printed it.  

If they can print Andrew Rawnsley and George Monbiot in the same paper they are doing something right.

[justified sinner]

oh the ironing ....

Time to call it. I think Scotland will Vote 'No'.

Was that deliberate or auto-correct? Either way it's awesome. That's now replaced "think of the children"

Probably just too much time spent on PR.

[Notch]

Irony of all this is that the Tories are going to get exactly what they want:

- no breakup of the Union
- no votes for Scots MPs at Westminster on non-Scots issues (which will be many once the new extra powers are granted, allegedly)
- therefore,  much reduced ability for Labour to form a government capable of passing motions on issues affecting England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Eventually the UK will and must break apart. Imagine the monumental forces going towards holding it together that will most likely bring about a no vote tomorrow- just. The NO side is just fighting over when they can postpone that too. Westminster has been out of touch for a long time. The gap between what they believe people believe and what people believe in various other parts of the UK is startling.

We think nation states are permanent entities- hubris. Everyone who builds an Empire thinks it will last forever, thats the delusion of Empires, but the wheel turns. Everything has a finite life.

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

[SecretFly]

He bloomin posted one of me favourite poems...........!

My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

[Notch]

See SecretFly, I knew you were a man of taste and discernment

[SecretFly]

Shush...I'm listening to my man.................

[quinsforever]

nothing inevitable about anything in democracy notch.

USA
EU
UK
all crazy experiments. all still here, even if changing and evolving.

[SecretFly]

I see the No camp are being given the last word again by the BBC

We had a NO chat by Jim Murphy of Labour.  Then we waited for the final chat of the day by the main man of the YES campaign, Salmond.  And that got a little too many cheers for safety so, yet again, it's not the end of the speeches at all and we have a pretty bad quality video of another NO man...em.... can't remember his name......................

His must definitely be the last last speech, surely.   Unless, the YES guys get someone in for a last few words and then force the editors of the BEEB to race about trying to find another NO guy to give the last comment before the c-oc-k crows tomorrow morning!!!.......

It's fascinating to watch the dynamics of it as an outside observer.... the tricks are all over the place - yes by both camps.... but on the BEEB it's always first YES argument...then the final word to NO.  I don't think I've ever seen it otherwise in any news bulletins.

[Notch]

You're right of course. I 100% agree with you. The future is not decided. We can't say if its decided or not.

1) Every Empire in history has fallen. But your Empire will never fall.
2) Every day has ended with the setting of the sun. But today, the sun will not set.
3) Every person in history has died. But you will live forever.

I can't disprove any of these statements. But I would not bet on the second clause in each one being true either. I don't know! But I don't think so. All I can do is guess about the future.

[Notch]

I'm locking the thread because it is overly long; if you want to continue discussion do it here https://www.606v2.com/t55619-indy-ref

[ME-109]

errr...not locked yet...

[SecretFly]

twilight zone feeling here....

[Notch]

Next time I decide to lock a thread, I'll actually lock the damn thread

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