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The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread

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Post by Duty281 Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

Onwards, we go. Latest England squad has been named for the friendly against Norway, and the opening qualifier versus Switzerland.

Goalkeepers: Fraser Forster (Southampton), Ben Foster (West Bromwich Albion), Joe Hart (Manchester City)
Defenders: Leighton Baines (Everton), Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Calum Chambers (Arsenal), Phil Jagielka (Everton), Phil Jones (Manchester United), Danny Rose (Tottenham Hotspur), John Stones (Everton)
Midfielders: Jack Colback (Newcastle United), Fabian Delph (Aston Villa), Jordan Henderson (Liverpool), James Milner (Manchester City), Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain (Arsenal) Raheem Sterling (Liverpool), Andros Townsend (Tottenham Hotspur), Jack Wilshere (Arsenal)
Forwards: Rickie Lambert (Liverpool), Wayne Rooney (Manchester United), Daniel Sturridge (Liverpool), Danny Welbeck (Manchester United)

You know, such a squad does not fill me to the brim with optimism!

Best side we can muster out of that, assuming Roy takes a 4-2-3-1 shape, would probably be:

Hart, Stones, Jagielka, Cahill, Baines, Henderson, Wilshere, Sterling, Rooney, Oxlade, and Sturridge.


Last edited by Duty281 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Crimey Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:22 am

England have been seriously dreadful. Even by their own low standards. Not sure there is a single positive to come out of this game.

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Post by compelling and rich Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:27 am

pen for rooney

this is where they all label him captain marvel and hail his "world class " performance now despite him doing absolutely nothing all game

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:29 am

Sterling has to play down the middle. He's wasted so much out wide
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:36 am

It's really rather strange, I now no longer get excited when Welbeck gets on the ball, an oddly tribal sport even at international level.

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Post by Hero Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:38 am

Fernando wrote:Going with 1 off games still then Whistle That's like me saying Sanogo is quality cos he scored 4 in the Emirates cup Whistle

Typical Arsenal fan to compare a MOTM performance in the biggest club game in the world to the tournament Arsenal invented purely to try and get silverware each year Wink

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:39 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's really rather strange, I now no longer get excited when Welbeck gets on the ball, an oddly tribal sport even at international level.
I'm only watching this game in the hope Tettey comes on and blazes a shot thirty yards over
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Post by Fernando Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:39 am

Hero wrote:
Fernando wrote:Going with 1 off games still then Whistle That's like me saying Sanogo is quality cos he scored 4 in the Emirates cup Whistle

Typical Arsenal fan to compare a MOTM performance in the biggest club game in the world to the tournament Arsenal invented purely to try and get silverware each year Wink

Only quality sides play in the Emirates cup Wink Anyone can get into the CL Whistle

Ludogorets > Man Utd Whistle

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Post by Hero Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:41 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's really rather strange, I now no longer get excited when Welbeck gets on the ball, an oddly tribal sport even at international level.

Did you ever get excited when Welbeck got on the ball?

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:43 am

To an extent Hero but now he's left i'll definitely start to see how frustrating he can be as a player, he's shown it a couple of times already.

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Post by Hero Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:46 am

I know it'll be seen as 'now he's left I don't rate him' but I just never remember a time I looked at a team sheet or saw him coming on from the bench and thought 'Yes, it's Danny Welbeck'.

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Post by Liam Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:59 am

what a dull dull dull performance that was from England. Don't expect much different from a Hodgson side though.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:02 am

Sterling the man to build around. Diamond in midfield, Rooney and Sturridge up top. Do lack a holding midfielder though. For all of Nobes' limitations, he'd be better holding in midfield than any of the options we currently have.

I also think Rav should look at Delph and Milner getting games in central midfield for England and really look at how easily he could win a place if he knuckled down

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Post by Crimey Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:06 am

Yeah pretty much every time Sterling plays he looks like England's best player and he's definitely better in the middle, especially for England where they struggle to feed the ball out wide. 

Just not sure anybody can play the holding midfield role, Henderson could fill a hole there but he's better in the middle running about and making runs to join the front two than he is covering the defence.

Even if you want to keep Rooney in the team, I do feel he limits options sometimes.

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Post by Guest Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:14 am

Liam wrote:what a dull dull dull performance that was from England. Don't expect much different from a Hodgson side though.

Two more years to go of this dire stuff.

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Post by Liam Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:15 am

Liam wrote:I'd play:

Hart

Stones---Cahill---Chambers---Baines---
-------------Wilshere-----------
---Henderson-----------Ox---------
---------------Sterling---------------
---------Rooney-------Sturridge----------

Said it the other day, they need to go with this formation.

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Post by Liam Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:16 am

John wrote:
Liam wrote:what a dull dull dull performance that was from England. Don't expect much different from a Hodgson side though.

Two more years to go of this dire stuff.

Should have gone after the world cup.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:20 am

Sterling is the most talented player and its not even close. He's so goof
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Post by Crimey Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:25 am

I want him to tone it down a little, if he carries on he will be snapped up by a bigger club, either one of the European giants or possibly Chelsea if he wants to move back to London.

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Post by NickisBHAFC Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:27 am

Missed the game tonight (thank god) sounds like we were awful and just edged past class opponents  Norway.

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Post by Guest Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:48 am

Liam wrote:
John wrote:
Liam wrote:what a dull dull dull performance that was from England. Don't expect much different from a Hodgson side though.

Two more years to go of this dire stuff.

Should have gone after the world cup.

I was slated for saying that, post WC. I'd go with that formation discussed, Roy is useless & clueless though. If we lose to Switzerland, he can't seriously have the support of anyone to carry on. He couldn't even motivate the players to play for their place in the qualifier next week. Truly dire stuff.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:52 am

Slow process

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:54 am

Tbf if I was a player I really wouldn't give a toss about friendlies
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Post by Crimey Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:59 am

I do think Hodgson might have lost the full support of the squad, the feel good atmosphere seems to have disappeared after the World Cup. 

Think he keeps his job based off of lack of real alternatives.

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Post by super_realist Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:48 pm

Liam wrote:what a dull dull dull performance that was from England. Don't expect much different from an Hodgson England side though.

Poor manager, poor players, weak squad, never a good recipe.

Dismal World Cup, and nothing has changed since so at least England were consistent. A good performance would only have papered over a chasm, and they usually struggle against Scandi teams, so this is simply exactly what we'd expect from such a match.

No need for an inquest, or a mutiny, or sacking the manager. England are what everyone has been saying they are for years. Second tier. Now it seems, this is thankfully accepted by the majority.



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Post by Hero Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:54 pm

I think second tier is being generous at present.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:38 pm

Olly wrote:Tbf if I was a player I really wouldn't give a toss about friendlies

We've got a very young team, and there are very few players who have cemented their position (including players like Rooney, Cahill and Hart who have more experience). Friendlies are very important to this team, where players, systems and combinations need to be tested out.

From a player's perspective, friendlies offer them a chance to fight for an England place. If I were England manager and a player took that attitude, I would assume he didn't want to earn his place in the team and wasn't willing to work in the best interests of the team. Hence I wouldn't pick him for competitive games.

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Post by liverbnz Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:57 pm

England are not very good but they are better than the manager is getting out of them. There are not many nations with as many CL players in there squads outside maybe the top 6 yet as he has shown countless times throughout his career Hodgson hasn't a clue what to do with them.

What is it now? 20th in the world. I know people don't really like World Rankings but they are based on results, and England aren't getting any.

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Post by super_realist Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:03 pm

I can't really think of ANY manager since 96 who has gotten anything out of the England players. Can't just blame Hodgson, or whoever was in charge, lesser teams with so called "lesser" players do much better, so the players, are at least if not more to blame than any manager.
I've heard that england are going to drop to be just one place ahead of Scotland in the next rankings. In reality, it's where they've been heading towards for a very long time.

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Post by Guest Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:14 pm

Hodgson is a clueless, limited manager, who has shown, like he did at Liverpool, to be way out of his depth. He gets the best out of teams that are suited to defending, whereas England's strength should be developing our new exciting younger attacking stars & so far Hodgson has shown he's got no idea how to utilise them. Keeping him on, is just stalling us & we will continue playing embarrassingly poor football under his management.

People who defend Hodgson are unbelievable, stating its a slow progress of change under him. He's had two tournaments & failed miserably, if anything, as the WC showed, we are going backwards under him.

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Post by super_realist Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:26 pm

I don't think anyone is defending Hodgson, but merely the suggestion that he is solely responsible.
It is however unbelievable that he or the FA thought that after the World Cup he should stay.

It's not as if England have suddenly become a bad team under his tenure, it's been like that for years.

I'd be interested to hear suggestions of a replacement, there are no outstanding English managers, and no top foreign coach is going to take on a lowly and awful team like that.


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Post by liverbnz Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:27 pm

super_realist wrote:I can't really think of ANY manager since 96 who has gotten anything out of the England players. Can't just blame Hodgson, or whoever was in charge, lesser teams with so called "lesser" players do much better, so the players, are at least if not more to blame than any manager.
I've heard that england are going to drop to be just one place ahead of Scotland in the next rankings. In reality, it's where they've been heading towards for a very long time.

He has the worst win % of any manager in the last 2 decades bar Keegan. Hodge Podge has won 1 match in 7 in major tournaments, against a very very ordinary (and old) Sweedish side. He has taken England to their lowest ranking since the Taylor debacle. He had the guts of that Liverpool side which were ripping teams to shreds last season + Wayne Rooney at his disposale at the WC and conjured up 2 goals in an average group.

And why does this arguement that 'it's the players fault' suddenly pop-up whenever an English manager is in charge yet when the foreign manager has the reigns we get pictures in the papers with donkey's ears stuck on and horseshit about the 'arm around the shoulder' garbage? I'm not sure were you work sr but in my place I cop the flak if my staff aren't doing their job. It's my responsibility to make sure they do. It's Hodge's to make sure he makes use of the full talent at his disposal. He isn't. He never has unless it's a mediorce league or mediocre team, and relatively England have plenty of players better than mediocre. He knows one way to set up a team and one way only and it's suits limited footballers while stifling good ones.

Finally England have acheived mostly what's to be expected the last 20 years. Mostly QFs, 1 semi at home with the odd shock here and there. If they learnt how to kick a ball into a net from 12 yards they'd have proabbly overachieved.  Hodgson is dragging the side down further than it should be.

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Post by super_realist Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:33 pm

Perhaps the QF's were actually an overachievement and we're now seeing their level.

So many teams have overtaken England, that it isn't a surprise that they are now 2nd or even 3rd tier.

Part of the problem is looking back, simply because they might have reached a QF every second tournament isn't a justification for this to be their expected level now. It doesn't take into account how other countries have improved.

England are now in with a large bunch of teams where a QF would be a surprise achievement.

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Post by Stella Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:39 pm

England are not awful, SR.

Hodgson is the wrong man, and yes, we are a so so team, so why are many surprised by our performance last night? Norway were quite resilient, but we still won, and created a few chances. It wasn't that bad, considering this is England.
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Post by liverbnz Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:00 pm

How many other nations in Europe have as many players playing at the top level  - and by that I mean playing CL knockout stages year on year - as England do and have had the last 15 years?


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Post by Lowlandbrit Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:05 pm

super_realist wrote:I'd be interested to hear suggestions of a replacement
Bit outside the box, but what about the Brentford manager? Seems to get results, and probably knows more than most about motivating millionaires.

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Post by liverbnz Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:13 pm

I see Hodgson is blaming England's opposition for the poor attendences at Wembley. Nothing to do with the turgid Poopie that he serves up then is it? Funnily enough Liverpool's lowest attendences were when Hodge Podge was in charge. Odd that.

Never takes responsibility for anything that goes wrong Woy. Complete Muppet.

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Post by Stella Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:18 pm

How much was a ticket for last night? £50 cheapest? You won't be getting sell outs for a friendly against Norway. Most of us see friendlies like the players do..........unimportant. I'd rather watch a qualifier against Moldova than a friendly.
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Post by super_realist Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:25 pm

liverbnz wrote:How many other nations in Europe have as many players playing at the top level  - and by that I mean playing CL knockout stages year on year - as England do and have had the last 15 years?

Spain, Germany, France, Holland, Belgium  and Italy for a start.

I think you'd be surprised how few actually do play in the latter stages, especially in the last couple of years.

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Post by liverbnz Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:17 pm

England's last competitive match (not counting Costa Rica as they were out by then)

1 Hart - yep
3 Baines -nope
5 Cahill - yep
6 Jagielka - nope
2 Johnson - yep
4 Gerrard - winners medal
14 Henderson - not yet
19 Sterling - not yet
10 Rooney - winners medal
11 Welbeck - yep
9 Sturridge - yep

5 + 1 wnner + 1 finalist + 2 who should in all liklihood do so this year

Belgium's last competitive match

1 T. Courtois - finalist
4 V. Kompany - yep
15 D. Van Buyten - winner
5 J. Vertonghen - nope
2 T. Alderweireld yep
8 M. Fellaini - nope
6 A. Witsel - yep
10 E. Hazard - yep
7 K. De Bruyne nope
11 K. Mirallas nope
17 D. Origi nope

4 + 1 finalist + 1 winner

England had a 2 further winners in their squad and 5 more who played in the KO stages. Belgium had much less.

I'd also have real doubts Holland and Italy as well. But anyway you've named 6 teams in Europe (I'm taking the 'for a start' as meaning 'I'm out of answers') and half of them are similar or less than the criteria.

Time to stop making excuses and look for solutions. Hodgson is not a solution to anything regarding top level football.


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Post by super_realist Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:30 pm

I'm not defending Hodgson, I'm saying that everyone ought to share the blame. This isn't a company, it's a football team.

Listing players who have played in CL knockout stages is utterly irrelevant when every team that gets that far (Bilbao aside) is a cosmopolitan list of the best players from a variety of countries in ONE team.  You managed to have ONE more player for England in CL knockouts than a country  with about 15% the population of England. English teams don't reach the knockouts because the English players get them there, any more than the other teams from other countries.

Should England do better internationally because they've a handful of players who happen to play in teams that reached the knockout stages of the CL.

You could probably make a list of players from different countries who ate a cheese sandwich in the last week and draw similar conclusions.

England haven't been good for a very long time, and no manager has got much out of them, Hodgson is simply the worst statistically from a long line, he isn't solely to blame, that's all I'm saying.

What would you expect a better manager to do? Best Norway 2-0?

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Post by super_realist Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:40 pm

As for your list, Fellaini did play for a team that reached the CL knockouts and played in the knockout game last year too.

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Post by liverbnz Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:05 pm

super_realist wrote:I'm not defending Hodgson, I'm saying that everyone ought to share the blame. This isn't a company, it's a football team.

The same principles apply. His role is 'Manager' or 'Head Coach' which brings with it responsibility. He's not carrying that out.

super_realist wrote:
Listing players who have played in CL knockout stages is utterly irrelevant when every team that gets that far (Bilbao aside) is a cosmopolitan list of the best players from a variety of countries in ONE team.  You managed to have ONE more player for England in CL knockouts than a country  with about 15% the population of England. English teams don't reach the knockouts because the English players get them there, any more than the other teams from other countries.

Er, you said Belgium would have more - I was simply correcting your point Felliani or no Felliani.

super_realist wrote:
Should England do better internationally because they've a handful of players who happen to play in teams that reached the knockout stages of the CL.

Handful? More than half their team for crying out loud. And yes, they should do better as it means they most likely have good players. CL ko stages are dominated by players from the best countries in the world. England have their fair share as has been demonstrated.

super_realist wrote:
You could probably make a list of players from different countries who ate a cheese sandwich in the last week and draw similar conclusions.

Playing at the top level of the game is a fair enough indication of the quality of player you are with a few exceptions of course [cough] Felliani [/cough]. If you are doing it year on year, which plenty for England do, then that's a pretty strong indication.  Eating a cheese sandwich is not. Stop being so ridiculous.

super_realist wrote:
England haven't been good for a very long time, and no manager has got much out of them, Hodgson is simply the worst statistically from a long line, he isn't solely to blame, that's all I'm saying.


He's where the buck stops. Underperforming team means underperforming manager usually. It's up to him to get the best out of what he has. He is not doing that - not even close. And he's mixing it in with turgid football to boot.

super_realist wrote:
What would you expect a better manager to do? Best Norway 2-0?


The Norway match is not the issue. Only a symptom. So again stop being ridiculous.

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Post by super_realist Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:19 pm

Sport's full of players who play well in certain format's/competitions/structures etc but perform poorly in others. England seem to fall into that category with international football. It doesn't make them bad players or even necessarily badly managed.

I agree Hodgson should have gone after the World Cup, he should have had the self awareness to do that, but would England have gotten out of that group with someone else in charge? Could another manager get much more out of them? Not exactly world beaters, if Man U, Arsenal or Chelsea put out a team of all English players in the Champions League, I woudln't expect them to do much better than the English team to in Euro's or World Cups.

I haven't seen much desire or appetite in the England team for a long time.

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Post by liverbnz Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:39 pm

I would have expected a more competent manager to have taken England out of that group yes. It was a woeful group clearly shown by a decent but not particularly dynamic team winning it! Finishing bottom was embarrassing for them.

And yes he should have gone, but he has no self-awareness whatsoever. If he wasn't English he'd have been gone long ago.

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Post by super_realist Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:54 pm

I remember being impressed with Riyjkaard when he quit Holland after failing at semi final a while back.

Semi final wasn't good enough for Holland, but Hodgson stays on after being lucky to finish bottom. Says a lot about the different mentalities.


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Post by MIG Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:58 pm

If Hodgson was to go, who would be the man to do the best job for England?

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Post by super_realist Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:59 pm

MIG wrote:If Hodgson was to go, who would be the man to do the best job for England?

Who would want it?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:01 am

I believe now, as I believed before the World Cup, that his remit was about evolving the team before 2016 and 2018. The emergence of young talent and the fading/retirement of older talents shapes the next year or two. I don't think he's "lost the dressing room" and I don't think it will do the team any favours to be chopping and changing with managers.

I prefer English coaches for the England team. I would accept Anglicised options like Martinez or Wenger who have made a huge impact on the English game and consider this country home.

I don't think there is an outstanding candidate out there. My next manager would likely be Neville, with Hoddle as a coach. I do wonder if Wenger would ever consider it when he leaves Arsenal, I also think someone like Zola would make a good international coach with an experienced figure with him.

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Post by Stella Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:05 am

You tout Zola but laugh at Redknapp?

Neville and Hoddle sounds like a plan, but sooner rather than later.
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Post by liverbnz Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:09 am

Hodgson and evolving. Good God. Heard it all now.

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