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Post by JAS Tue 02 Sep 2014, 6:30 am

First topic message reminder :

McLaren wrote:Right now I would rather we still had Wellbeck and little pea and that Falcao had never arrived.  Not too impressed by the signing of Di Maria either.

"We"?? I'm surprised you associate yourself to an organisation that has squandered over £135 this summer, whilst there are homeless people on the streets and starving children in the world!! They could have spent £135m on those things and left the squad alone, finishing top half would still be ok wouldn't it? Especially if so many peoples lives were improved by redirecting transfer monies to charity.

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Post by Diggers Mon 08 Sep 2014, 9:37 pm

That's England qualified for Euro 2016.

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon 08 Sep 2014, 9:58 pm

ray,
Delph started out like a dynamo, some really good stuff but then senselessly got himself booked after ten minutes and lost his bite after that. Still, apparently he completed all 26 of his first half passes so not too bad.

A bit Keystone Cops in defence occasionally, but entertaining game and good result.
Wonder if Hodgson will do a Billy Horschel and mention how pleased he is to "stick it to the press" for criticising him last week?

Unconvincing efforts from Wilshere (careless with the ball) and Phil Jones (just careless).

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Post by Diggers Mon 08 Sep 2014, 10:00 pm

Harsh on Jones Kwini, one howler in the first half, Cahill did the same. Stones is going to be a superb footballer in a couple of years.

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon 08 Sep 2014, 10:04 pm

Digs,
I like Jones, but he's all a bit Johnny Evans isn't he? He also got badly caught out of position a couple of times too.
Can see Chambers at right-back and Stones central for England for many years after another year, say, of seasoning.

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Post by raycastleunited Mon 08 Sep 2014, 10:11 pm

Cheers kwini, booking would explain a lot. Woy really should have brought Delph off in the second half.

Thought Hart, Cahill, Stones looked solid. Well beck took his goals well, Sterling was England's most dangerous player, although he made quite a few mistakes.

Diggers, am sure we will see a few dodgy performances against Estonia, Lithuania etc. plenty of opportunity for the team to let us down.

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Post by pedro Mon 08 Sep 2014, 10:13 pm

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:There's also the question that many Scottish voters "don't like being governed by public school boys" ...
That's an interesting one isn't it? Assuming we're not talking about "Tim, nice, but dim" sorts of Public school kids, you'd have to assume they were a) bright and b) got some of the best education in the World. Why would you not want that sort of person in Government?*

* - Forget about how they got to Public school, whether Mummy and Daddy could afford the fees, whether they were simply out for themselves etc etc.

Indeed, I've never understood why people think a roofer or toilet cleaner would be considered better at being an MP
Real life experience.

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Post by Diggers Mon 08 Sep 2014, 10:16 pm

raycastleunited wrote:Cheers kwini, booking would explain a lot. Woy really should have brought Delph off in the second half.

Thought Hart, Cahill, Stones looked solid. Well beck took his goals well, Sterling was England's most dangerous player, although he made quite a few mistakes.

Diggers, am sure we will see a few dodgy performances against Estonia, Lithuania etc. plenty of opportunity for the team to let us down.

I honestly think its a done deal Ray. Two from the group minimum isn't it? And it's not a tough group at all and pressure off after that result.

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Post by super_realist Mon 08 Sep 2014, 10:42 pm

England might be poor, but they were always going to get through this group in either 1st or 2nd, that isn't in doubt, we all know, qualifying has never been a problem, it's shaking off being the "also rans" in the tournament that is the issue.

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Post by Diggers Mon 08 Sep 2014, 10:57 pm

Well we can't judge that till the next tournament Super so a bit of a waste of a conversation. It's about the here and now and that was a good result against a decent side so (relatively) happy days.

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Post by raycastleunited Tue 09 Sep 2014, 12:11 am

Agree that we will qualify, and we were always going to as soon as the group was drawn, just think that it won't all be plain sailing. England has a habit of doing things the hard way, never seem to be able to kill off weaker teams.

There's been a tendency for decent players to freeze when they put on the England shirt. Must be the pressure exaggerated by the media and it just breeds self doubt. Got to go back to the late 90s and the Hoddle and Venables sides to find a team playing with freedom.

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Post by raycastleunited Tue 09 Sep 2014, 12:18 am

And talking about playing with confidence and freedom... I know every squad needs its plodder, but how has Milner won 50 caps? Looked an exciting talent when he came along but he has developed into a reliable but underwhelming workhorse who's sole role appears to be to protect the full back behind him. Hasn't offered anything creative for years, massively lacks confidence when he gets an opening, mystery why he plays so much

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Post by golfermartin Tue 09 Sep 2014, 8:43 am

Going back to Scottish independence, I am surprised that noone has mentioned how crap Scottish National Lottery funded sport will become. I know it might be seen as being a bit frivalous, but there is no doubt that sporting success raises the mood of a nation. Would Scotland set up its own lottery? Given the small population that would not raise much to fund the "minority" sports which rely on lottery - swimming, cycling, athletics etc - where Scots have had a pretty good representation in Team GB. It will also sadly dilute Team GB

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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Sep 2014, 8:53 am

I mentioned that earlier Martin, any Scottish only team will be as bad as the football and rugby teams.
Imagine how bad Scottish Sports Personality of the Year would be, almost as bad as Ireland.

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Post by golfermartin Tue 09 Sep 2014, 9:03 am

What I meant was within the actual campaigns, not on here.

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Post by beninho Tue 09 Sep 2014, 9:06 am

Did Terry Venables side play with freedom? He had friendlies in build up to euro 96, then won 2 games out of 5. I think everyone looks back at euro96 through rose tinted glasses. We did very well against a broken dutch team, they had a split between black and white players, and i think Seedorf or Davids had gone home. We beat Scotland, but needed a penalty save to help. And then drew the rest.

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 09 Sep 2014, 9:42 am

beninho wrote:Did Terry Venables side play with freedom? He had friendlies in build up to euro 96, then won 2 games out of 5. I think everyone looks back at euro96 through rose tinted glasses. We did very well against a broken dutch team, they had a split between black and white players, and i think Seedorf or Davids had gone home. We beat Scotland, but needed a penalty save to help. And then drew the rest.
Laugh Maybe, but that's so typical England support. Every (well, almost) every side in a major tournament needs its bits of luck. England have been over-hyped for years but that's no reason to overdo it.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Tue 09 Sep 2014, 9:51 am

I'm biased granted, but I thought Delph did well. Don't forget this was his competitive debut. He was showing for the ball, taking some responsibility, putting himself about and has a lot of energy.
Wilshire, now he was anonymous!
Thought Welbeck did very well and nice to see as he gets a hard time. Will be difficult for Roy to bring Sturridge back in for the next one.
Sterling looks like he's going to be a top player but i do wish he was a touch less greedy when not in the box, same as Sturridge really.
Also agree that Stones looks excellent. Kwini, i think we're more likely to see Stones at right back and Chambers at centre back than the other way around. Arsene seems to be intent on playing Chambers in the middle for Arsenal
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Post by MustPuttBetter Tue 09 Sep 2014, 9:56 am

beninho wrote:Did Terry Venables side play with freedom? He had friendlies in build up to euro 96, then won 2 games out of 5. I think everyone looks back at euro96 through rose tinted glasses. We did very well against a broken dutch team, they had a split between black and white players, and i think Seedorf or Davids had gone home. We beat Scotland, but needed a penalty save to help. And then drew the rest.

That's how tournaments go Ben. Rarely do sides do well in these things having been amazing the whole way through. 1990 England could only draw with Ireland and Holland in the group and beat Egypt 1-0. Then a late goal v Belgium, scaped past Cameroon before losing on pens. Hardly glorious.
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Post by beninho Tue 09 Sep 2014, 2:11 pm

I was 10 for Italia 90, so my memory of it is not great, but i seem to recall it being very exciting. Everything i read know is that it was one of the worst world cups, full of dull boring matches. And helped bring in the back pass rule. But then and maybe 94 you had not had the influx of foreign players to the premier league, and other leagues where not readily available to watch, so seeing all the different players and names you only heard or read about was very exciting, whether the football was crap or not. Now we know about every young progidy before he has kciked a ball. And then can write him off when he hasnt scored in his first 10 games. The football world has got a lot smaller.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue 09 Sep 2014, 2:31 pm

Thought England's biggest weakness last night was the way the team became stretched when going forward, leading to players, especially Jones and Stones (there's a limerick there somewhere), without anyone filling in to cover for them.
OK, so long as the ball isn't then given away cheaply, but most of Switzerland's best moments came when they counter-attacked with our guys at 6's & 7's (not a dig at Jones and Wilshere).
Not sure whether that's just a question of playing together more often or tactical naivete, but potentially fatal against better finishers.

Delph was terrific for Villa towards the end of last year - had never considered him a candidate for the World Cup, but he gave England a glimpse of the midfield "bite" they seem to have been missing. Stupid early booking though reduced his effectiveness.

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Post by pedro Tue 09 Sep 2014, 3:04 pm

World Cup '90 stunk, but still remember David Platt's goal.
In fairness Germany was the best team, and Argentina was lucky to reach the final.
Watched Italy's defeat against Argentina (with Maradona) on a bar during a holiday in Italy and locals were far from happy with the performance...

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 09 Sep 2014, 3:48 pm

Hmm. Can anyone confirm if Scottish Widows are a Scottish company? Seem to be from what I can find but...
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Post by McLaren Tue 09 Sep 2014, 4:11 pm

I think it was taken over by Lloyds at some point.
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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Sep 2014, 4:23 pm

New Jag XE looks pretty tasty.

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Post by Bob_the_Job Tue 09 Sep 2014, 4:25 pm

What's the significance of being a Scottish company and what does that actually mean? Their registered office (for the plc) is:

Scottish Widows plc
Company No. 199549.
Registered Office in the United Kingdom at:
69 Morrison Street,
Edinburgh
EH3 8YF

They were acquired by Lloyds, but operate as a wholly owned subsidiary.
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Post by McLaren Tue 09 Sep 2014, 4:25 pm

Super

Wouldn't have thought you were a car fan?

Any small car that has low emissions does me fine.
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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Sep 2014, 4:27 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

Wouldn't have thought you were a car fan?

Any small car that has low emissions does me fine.

Why not Mac?

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 09 Sep 2014, 4:29 pm

Cheers Bob - that's where I thought they were. Significance? Largish chunk of an AVC of mine is invested with them and I'd quite like to move it asap if they're Scottish. Maybe if they're a Lloyds subsid, the current referendum nonsense won't make any difference but I think I'm going to move it anyway.
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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Sep 2014, 4:31 pm

You might not have to Navy, a number of financial firms have stated they aren't in favour of independence and would consider moving as most of their customers aren't in Scotland

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 09 Sep 2014, 4:34 pm

super_realist wrote:You might not have to Navy, a number of financial firms have stated they aren't in favour of independence and would consider moving as most of their customers aren't in Scotland
True. I suppose it's got maybe another 20 years, max. before I want to get at it so could leave it and see. Will have to speak to the financial guy we use I think. ****ing referendum!
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Post by gaelgowfer Tue 09 Sep 2014, 5:20 pm

Strewth, this referendum is rapidly turning into Culloden 2! Shocked

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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Sep 2014, 5:27 pm

If only Gael, that way the Scots would be getting a kicking, it's a bit of a 0-0 draw at the moment.

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Post by McLaren Tue 09 Sep 2014, 5:30 pm

Is anyone else genuinely a little afraid by the thought that in just over a weeks time are country may no longer exist?
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Post by kwinigolfer Tue 09 Sep 2014, 5:33 pm

So long as Glasgow and Edinburgh don't turn in to the urban/economic wasteland that Montreal became after most of the "Anglo" money and multinational companies fled for Toronto and Vancouver after it seemed that Quebec would separate.
Montreal is a thriving multi-cultural metropolis now, fabulous place, but twenty years ago it had deteriorated in to an economically deprived concrete jungle with no heart and less soul.

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Post by SmithersJones Tue 09 Sep 2014, 5:46 pm

I don't know enough about it, being a cosseted southern Englishman, but it really does seem suicidal to me. It's not that Scotland isn't 'wealthy', it's not even that the oil money will run out sooner rather than later. It just seems to me that Salmond is promising to protect the NHS and other welfare state benefits without specifying how he's going to fund that. Given that his one stated tax policy is to reduce corporation tax, it seems fairly logical that Joe McPublic will be working for the Government until at least Wednesday lunchtime each week, if he's working at all. Remind me how long it takes to commute from Newcastle to Edinburgh/Glasgow by train?
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Post by gaelgowfer Tue 09 Sep 2014, 5:46 pm

super_realist wrote:If only Gael, that way the Scots would be getting a kicking, it's a bit of a 0-0 draw at the moment.

kwini, I was really referring to the potentially disastrous consequences for Scotland should the 'Yesses' prevail.  What a bloody mess it's going to be to sort it out.

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Post by gaelgowfer Tue 09 Sep 2014, 5:48 pm

SmithersJones wrote:I don't know enough about it, being a cosseted southern Englishman, but it really does seem suicidal to me. It's not that Scotland isn't 'wealthy', it's not even that the oil money will run out sooner rather than later. It just seems to me that Salmond is promising to protect the NHS and other welfare state benefits without specifying how he's going to fund that. Given that his one stated tax policy is to reduce corporation tax, it seems fairly logical that Joe McPublic will be working for the Government until at least Wednesday lunchtime each week, if he's working at all. Remind me how long it takes to commute from Newcastle to Edinburgh/Glasgow by train?

Smithers ... it was the promise of protecting the NHS that started the move towards 'Yes'.

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Post by Diggers Tue 09 Sep 2014, 5:50 pm

So much doom and gloom on here. This is ground breaking democracy in action. Personally I think its fantastic the 16 year olds up can vote. All the older generations do is winge about the disengaged youth. Then they winge at a measure that engages them. The irony being the ones that are moaning probably rarely vote themselves anyway!
Can't believe the Queen hasn't been hoiked up to do the rounds, the fact they think sending Cameron, Clegg and Milliband will make a difference is hilarious. It will..just not in the way they want.
This is only heading one way as far as I can see.

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Post by gaelgowfer Tue 09 Sep 2014, 6:18 pm

Diggers wrote:So much doom and gloom on here. This is ground breaking democracy in action. Personally I think its fantastic the 16 year olds up can vote. All the older generations do is winge about the disengaged youth. Then they winge at a measure that engages them. The irony being the ones that are moaning probably rarely vote themselves anyway!
Can't believe the Queen hasn't been hoiked up to do the rounds, the fact they think sending Cameron, Clegg and Milliband will make a difference is hilarious. It will..just not in the way they want.
This is only heading one way as far as I can see.

Pretty naïve viewpoint.  Salmond only gave the 16-18 year olds an opportunity because he thought this was the one group most likely to vote 'Yes'.

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Post by Diggers Tue 09 Sep 2014, 6:24 pm

And that would change my personal opinion that its a good thing, based on the reasons I gave, in what way exactly Gael?
Sure there might be a political reason, that doesn't have to stop something being a positive. The vast amount of policy implemented at any time is political.

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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Sep 2014, 6:30 pm

I'm sick of hearing what a "great" politician Fat Salmond is,  he's just as slimy, duplicitious and economical with the truth as all the rest and his henchmen are no better.

His brand of "it will be alright" is awful politics. It's the sort of ethic they had in British Leyland in the 1970's and look what happened there.

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Post by Diggers Tue 09 Sep 2014, 6:36 pm

If be sick of it if I was you Super, if I was as pro Union as you Id be gutted at what a fantastic job he's done for his campaign.
You have to think part of the success comes from how smug the No supporters have been all the way through this. Not do much now though..

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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Sep 2014, 6:41 pm

Smug? He's the smuggest man in the whole of the UK.
He's a loathsome man, and he's subtly playing not to real policy, but towards separation for no good reason and playing on peoples irrational dislike of the English.

He's yet to give a reason that isn't an assertion.

You are maybe a bit more detached from it down there, but the propaganda coming from the Yes campaign is preposterous.

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Post by Diggers Tue 09 Sep 2014, 6:46 pm

Yeah, no propaganda from the no campaign at all is there. The fact is he's selling a possibility, but that's all Westminster does.
Westminster will bend over backwards even with a Yes vote, its clear both countries will need each other and that Osbornes posturing re the pound was just...scare tactic propaganda.

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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Sep 2014, 7:21 pm

I haven't seen anything from the No campaign which is anything like the guesswork and sensationalism of the Yes campaign.

Here's an example. "1 in 5 children in Scotland is in poverty. Vote Yes" Saw it on a bus stop advert last week.

No explanation, no solution, no actual backing up whether it's even true. Just a reprehensible tactic to try and curry favour with the electorate.

Their slogan should be. "Vote yes, we've no idea what it will be like, but we like the idea,it will probably turn out rubbish, but who cares, at least we get away from those English bastards"

That basically sums it up.

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 09 Sep 2014, 9:47 pm

gaelgowfer wrote:Smithers ... it was the promise of protecting the NHS that started the move towards 'Yes'.
But that's just plain stupid. I've not heard a single commentator dispute the assertion that the Scottish NHS is already devolved and they can protect it as they see fit.

Diggers wrote:Yeah, no propaganda from the no campaign at all is there. The fact is he's selling a possibility, but that's all Westminster does.
Westminster will bend over backwards even with a Yes vote, its clear both countries will need each other and that Osbornes posturing re the pound was just...scare tactic propaganda.
Westminster will bend over backwards after a 'yes'?? I think not. No politician is going to give an inch or they'll be kicked out and Salmond et al are stupid - the loss of the Scots Labour MPs and the SNP to offset Tory voters in rUK means we'll be Tory for at least the next decade I would suspect. I'm sure a Tory Chancellor will let that odious windbag have all he wants post-vote....not!
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Post by Diggers Tue 09 Sep 2014, 9:56 pm

Think you are completely wrong Navy. The Govt may be unpleasant but they aren't completely moronic. I would bet my house that the separation will be slow and both elements know that they want to have a close relationship.
You'd probably have more radical instant changes if the No vote won quite frankly, the instant list of devolved powers is massive.

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 09 Sep 2014, 10:01 pm

Oh. In addition, if the Scots actually get a currency union, they'll be beholden to interest rates etc set by a Tory government for the forseeable future. Well done.

Salmond may well get away with this, which is pathetic. I seriously dislike Paxman, but if he'd interviewed Salmond, he'd have had his arse hauled over the coals, wouldn't have been allowed to avoid giving any substantive answers and I'd have loved to have seen him try to shout Paxman down. Politicians! The Westminster crew are pathetic (but they were on a hiding to nothing) and Salmond is an oily liar, just like every other of his ilk. The fact that so many 'yes' supporters are banging on about honesty of Westminster politicians as if Salmond and the SNP have ever been any different (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_04_11_labourdoc.pdf). Pathetic.

All this on a whim. Democracy it may be; dumb it definitely is.
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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 09 Sep 2014, 10:08 pm

Diggers wrote:Think you are completely wrong Navy. The Govt may be unpleasant but they aren't completely moronic. I would bet my house that the separation will be slow and both elements know that they want to have a close relationship.
You'd probably have more radical instant changes if the No vote won quite frankly, the instant list of devolved powers is massive.
They will not get a currency union in any meaningful way. 1) all parties said it wouldn't happen and the backlash if that were reneged on would be enormous and 2) there is no way, what-so-ever, the BoE (or the rUK populace) is going to bail out Salmond's Brigadoon utopia.
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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Sep 2014, 10:13 pm

It's always claimed that without Scotland, England would have more Tory governments.
I can't remember the exact figures, but I seem to recall an article saying that since WW2 there has only been 2 occasions where the seats in Scotland had an influence on the over all outcome. So with or without Scotland, it wouldn't make much difference to who governs in England.

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