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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by JAS Tue 02 Sep 2014, 6:30 am

First topic message reminder :

McLaren wrote:Right now I would rather we still had Wellbeck and little pea and that Falcao had never arrived.  Not too impressed by the signing of Di Maria either.

"We"?? I'm surprised you associate yourself to an organisation that has squandered over £135 this summer, whilst there are homeless people on the streets and starving children in the world!! They could have spent £135m on those things and left the squad alone, finishing top half would still be ok wouldn't it? Especially if so many peoples lives were improved by redirecting transfer monies to charity.

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Post by Diggers Tue 09 Sep 2014, 10:36 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:Think you are completely wrong Navy. The Govt may be unpleasant but they aren't completely moronic. I would bet my house that the separation will be slow and both elements know that they want to have a close relationship.
You'd probably have more radical instant changes if the No vote won quite frankly, the instant list of devolved powers is massive.
They will not get a currency union in any meaningful way. 1) all parties said it wouldn't happen and the backlash if that were reneged on would be enormous and 2) there is no way, what-so-ever, the BoE (or the rUK populace) is going to bail out Salmond's Brigadoon utopia.

We shall see, until 2 weeks ago I don't think they thought it was a possibility. I think there will be a minimum of a 5 year union which is ample time for Scotland to sort themselves out. Is expect it to be a lot longer. If you are setting store by what Cameron et al have said so far then fine...its politics, they will be as pragmatic as they need to be with the situation that arises.

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Post by McLaren Tue 09 Sep 2014, 11:03 pm

Navy

The currency union could be a catastrophe as the eurozone debacle has shown us. And in the case of Scotland needing help it would be even worse than those countries bailed out by Germany. Of course the Germans bailed out their neighbors because they were trading partners but they also had pressure from the European central bank and eurozone agreements to make sure the bailout happened and that it was somewhat favorable to those receiving aid.

When Alex needs his Brigadoon utopia bailed out where will the pressure be on the rUK central bank to make sure it is in the best interests of Scotland? Its primary interest will be getting paid back.
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Post by Diggers Tue 09 Sep 2014, 11:09 pm

Mac, why are you comparing a small shared currency to the Eurozone? There is already a shared currency, it's not like you are suddenly combining multiple currencies into one.
Its in both parties interests to carry on as is for the foreseeable future, and that's exactly what will happen.

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Post by raycastleunited Tue 09 Sep 2014, 11:55 pm

McLaren wrote:Is anyone else genuinely a little afraid by the thought that in just over a weeks time are country may no longer exist?

No not in the slightest. I couldn't care less, I don't see how Scotland being part of the UK does anything to benefit England.

This board is very well represented by the Scots so can perfectly understand it is an issue for you guys, but there's probably 50 million people in Britain who couldn't give a toss. Maybe the best answer is a partition of Scotland, the top half can be independent and the bottom half still part of the UK. It's worked so well in the past... Ireland, india/Pakistan, Korea.

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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 6:58 am

Diggers, I think the issue Mac is struggling to make is how the pound, as used from Scotland would be backed up financially.

The problem for me is not necessarily the currency but how Scotland expects to be able to manage 100bn of debt which it will inherit, and with what. It would be a terrible way to start off.

I'm sick of them saying "it's Scotland's oil",(£5bn in revenue 2013) yet I've never heard them saying "it's London's financial sector" ((92bn in 2013) Funny that.

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Post by Diggers Wed 10 Sep 2014, 7:37 am

raycastleunited wrote:
McLaren wrote:Is anyone else genuinely a little afraid by the thought that in just over a weeks time are country may no longer exist?

No not in the slightest. I couldn't care less, I don't see how Scotland being part of the UK does anything to benefit England.

This board is very well represented by the Scots so can perfectly understand it is an issue for you guys, but there's probably 50 million people in Britain who couldn't give a toss. Maybe the best answer is a partition of Scotland, the top half can be independent and the bottom half still part of the UK. It's worked so well in the past... Ireland, india/Pakistan, Korea.

If you vote Conservative maybe Ray, but not if you are a Labour or Lib Dem voter. A Yes vote has massive political consequences. Id vote Yes if I was in Scotland but the cost for me in England is more Tory rule which is gutting quite frankly. It may also have an effect on any Euro referendum outcome.
But I do think a lot of reaction down here had been stuff them and resentful that they should even want a choice, which is only going to help the Yes supporters.

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Post by McLaren Wed 10 Sep 2014, 7:54 am

diggers

We don't currently have a currency union we have one nation using the same currency, where monetary and fiscal policy is formed with the nation as a whole in mind.
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Post by Diggers Wed 10 Sep 2014, 8:00 am

True but we have a much better starting point...or continuation...than the Eurozone. Only 2 parties, a lot less people involved, I don't see why it has to a massive problem.

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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 8:06 am

The use of the pound in SCotland wouldn't be backed up by the Bank of England.

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Post by Diggers Wed 10 Sep 2014, 8:08 am

We don't know that yet Super.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 8:49 am

super_realist wrote:It's always claimed that without Scotland, England would have more Tory governments.
I can't remember the exact figures, but I seem to recall an article saying that since WW2 there has only been 2 occasions where the seats in Scotland had an influence on the over all outcome. So with or without Scotland, it wouldn't make much difference to who governs in England.
Maybe so. The way things are going, we're to have that theory put to the test. Personally, I think we'll be Tory for some time to come if there's a 'yes' north of the border on the 18th although, if there were, that might be the one strong point in a Labour election campaign - "Don't vote for the party that lost Scotland from the Union".
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 8:51 am

There is probably more likely to be a Labour government next. As unpopular as Milliband is, the coalition (not tory government) hasn't been very popular.

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Post by Diggers Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:15 am

Id like to agree Super but don't think it will happen, at least not a majority anyway. Navy is right though, if Cameron is seen as the man who lost Scotland it could spell disaster for him personally.....such a shame...

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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:19 am

I'm not sure portraying Cameron as "the man who lost Scotland" would bother anyone.
Most people in the England couldn't really give a toss about Scotland, I don't really blame them. I can't see what NI or Wales brings to the UK, so I wouldn't lament their loss if they left the union.
I don't think it would affect Cameron's re-election chances at all, I just think the coalition have had an unsuccessful spell in government, and that is likely to be a much more influential factor.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:20 am

super_realist wrote:There is probably more likely to be a Labour government next. As unpopular as Milliband is, the coalition (not tory government) hasn't been very popular.
You think? After the banks? The crash? The note from that Labour Treasury minister to the incoming Tory one that said something along the lines of "There's nothing left. We've spent it all"? The fact that (much as I don't like the fact), the economy is on the up, whereas, say, the French and German along with the rest of Europe is tanking?

All Labour have is the effect of the austerity on ordinary people and the Tories, unsurprisingly, will simply say "Well, if you hadn't made such a mess, we wouldn't have to do this would we?" If things continue as they are (and, TBH, the referendum could come to Labour's aid here and spike the budding economic recovery), by the time we get to our general election next year, things could be looking very bad for Labour. Clinton wasn't wrong when he coined that "It's the economy, stupid!" sound bite.
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Post by Diggers Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:25 am

True enough Navy, but if elections were just about the economy Major wouldn't have lost. There's a lot more to consider, for instance education and the fact they clearly want to destroy the NHS.

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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:27 am

My point Navy was that as unpopular as Milliband is, he is probably slightly more popular than Cameron et al. I'm sure enough time has passed for most voters to "forget" about the issues the labour government left us with and the necessary austerity combined with a few unpopular policies and personalities isn't good for the Tories.

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Post by Diggers Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:30 am

Yes, I mean it's not like those financial issues had anything to do with a global economy meltdown is it...

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:31 am

Diggers wrote:...Its in both parties interests to carry on as is for the foreseeable future, and that's exactly what will happen.
No, it's not. It may be in Scots interest, but it won't be for the rUK. It doesn't matter if it takes 12 months, 5 years, 10 years or whatever for the Scots to sort out their currency. If they're a separate country and their economy is a bust etc, there's no way on this Earth that the rUK/BoE would accept bailing them out, no questions asked. If the Scots want to bow down to, what I would hope, are pretty stringent, non-rose tinted conditions in the event of that sort of thing happening, more fool them. Some independence that would be and all so "We don't get a Government we didn't vote for again!". Daft in the extreme.
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Post by Diggers Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:35 am

Apart from the fact that a bust Scotland is utter conjecture on your part that's a truly brilliant argument Navy.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:35 am

Diggers wrote:True enough Navy, but if elections were just about the economy Major wouldn't have lost. There's a lot more to consider, for instance  education and the fact they clearly want to destroy the NHS.
Nah. Major had far too many problems that the economy didn't counterbalance. Over a decade of Thatcher, corruption, cash-for-questions, Major himself (Spitting Image had his public persona sewn up a treat), etc etc. This Tory lot don't have that problem. OK, they're far from perfect but they'll be forming the next Government. They'll be credited (or take the credit) for the +ve that the Coalition have managed and blame the LibDems for the bad bits (student fees). They may have more trouble 4/5 years after the next election on getting in again but I wouldn't be surprised if they got in easily then as well.
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Post by Diggers Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:37 am

The UK were quite happy to bail out Ireland. Whether you believe it or not the existing economic ties are strong and will remain so even with a Yes vote.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:41 am

Diggers wrote:Apart from the fact that a bust Scotland is utter conjecture on your part that's a truly brilliant argument Navy.
Of course it's conjecture. The problem they have is that it is conjecture and that's a big problem for finance, in particular. I'm going to get any money I have in Scottish institutions out asap and I know quite a number of friends doing exactly the same. I'm not sure on the property side but I can think, easily, of 5 people I know who're selling up, now, in Scotland - 3 aren't willing to risk interest rate issues and the other 2 are thoroughly fed up of the Nationalist diatribe.
It's a risk. I don't care if it's a million-to-one that the Scottish economy/financial sector/whatever blows up. I don't want (and I don't think rUK Government will allow it either) to be exposed to the costs of that risk. At all.
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:44 am

I've got an interview lined up in Norway on Monday, just keeping the options open.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:45 am

Diggers wrote:The UK were quite happy to bail out Ireland. Whether you believe it or not the existing economic ties are strong and will remain so even with a Yes vote.
Of course and you're right, that could be negotiated after the event of independence. In essence, I'm not that bothered about it in principle given the Ireland case BUT I would expect rUK to drive a seriously hard bargain if it came down to it. Salmond has simply been allowed to get away w/o addressing any of this.
In any case, I'm still getting any money I have out of anything exposed to this now.
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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:54 am

Laugh There would appear to be a problem:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c43c9a14-3846-11e4-9fc2-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3Ct2eVoVC

Pity I don't pay the Murdoch Empire so can't read the article, but it seems I'm not the only one getting money out...
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Post by McLaren Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:56 am

navyblueshorts wrote:The fact that (much as I don't like the fact), the economy is on the up, whereas, say, the French and German along with the rest of Europe is tanking?

Navy

That is a really odd way to look at it. The economy is doing poorly and not recovering like it should have. The story from Europe is that austerity failed. You have to remember we also went with austerity, so just because we are doing a touch better than some of the other nations that went down the austerity route it doesn't mean Osborne has been a great success. We are at the better end of a bad scale.
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:57 am

What other options were there Mac?

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Post by Bob_the_Job Wed 10 Sep 2014, 9:59 am

So far (on here) I've heard:

1. Not many in the UK give a toss about Scotland
2. There is little or no contribution from Scotland to the UK

Makes you wonder why the most senior UK politicians are campaigning so hard to keep it.
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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 10:02 am

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:The fact that (much as I don't like the fact), the economy is on the up, whereas, say, the French and German along with the rest of Europe is tanking?

Navy

That is a really odd way to look at it.  The economy is doing poorly and not recovering like it should have.  The story from Europe is that austerity failed.  You have to remember we also went with austerity, so just because we are doing a touch better than some of the other nations that went down the austerity route it doesn't mean Osborne has been a great success.  We are at the better end of a bad scale.
True but my point is this lot went a different way about it to the rest and appear to have been proven right in that we're (allegedly) coming out of it more robustly and quicker. It was going to bad for everyone in some form. I'm not an expert in any sense but I don't see how Labour have a snowball's chance in Hell of dealing with arguments around the economy, especially if things continue as they are.
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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 10:04 am

Bob_the_Job wrote:So far (on here) I've heard:

1. Not many in the UK give a toss about Scotland
2. There is little or no contribution from Scotland to the UK

Makes you wonder why the most senior UK politicians are campaigning so hard to keep it.  
The one thing I can think of is strategic defense. Potentially a pain having another country, with foreign borders, up there. Who knows what the relationship between the two might be in 50 or 100 years? That's of course assuming the planet hasn't melted/suffocated/flooded in the meantime of course.
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 10:06 am

More an issue of political stability and strength than financial Bob

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Post by MustPuttBetter Wed 10 Sep 2014, 10:36 am

If losing Scotland would be a good thing for the Tories down here voting wise, why are they bothering to try and keep it at all?
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 10:40 am

because there are more important things than that

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Post by pedro Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:08 am

Diggers wrote:if Cameron is seen as the man who lost Scotland it could spell disaster for him personally.....
Eeeh it's a democratic referendum, not a football match or Ukraine. Nobody's "losing" anything, it's the will of the people. I think most are wise enough to understand that.

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Post by pedro Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:09 am

super_realist wrote:I've got an interview lined up in Norway on Monday, just keeping the options open.
From one country on the way up its own behind to a country who's been there for ages...

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:09 am

super_realist wrote:because there are more important things than that
Quite!
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:10 am

What's wrong with Norway?

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Post by pedro Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:14 am

super_realist wrote:What's wrong with Norway?
Over religious, bigoted, self centered and up its own behind. Doesn't sound like a super_realist combo. Yikes

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Post by Diggers Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:16 am

pedro wrote:
Diggers wrote:if Cameron is seen as the man who lost Scotland it could spell disaster for him personally.....
Eeeh it's a democratic referendum, not a football match or Ukraine. Nobody's "losing" anything, it's the will of the people. I think most are wise enough to understand that.

Its a democratic referendum that he sanctioned when he didn't have to. The most fervent Unionists are Tory, if there is a Yes vote Cameron's epitaph will be all about Scotland. Let's face it bar keeping interest rates low to create a false economy he's achieved sweet FA else.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:22 am

I see Salmond is now on about "Team Scotland" and "Team Westminster". Will someone please force him to address the issues???
FWIW, Cameron may as well challenge him by taking up the earlier offer from Salmond re. a TV debate. I doubt Salmond would take it now but it couldn't make things worse for the 'no' camp and Cameron may actually catch him out.
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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:22 am

Diggers wrote:...bar keeping interest rates low to create a false economy he's achieved sweet FA else.
Pretty sure it's the BoE that's keeping interest rates low.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:28 am

super_realist wrote:because there are more important things than that

More important things to a politician than staying in power?? Really??? I'm not sure on that
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:29 am

pedro wrote:
super_realist wrote:What's wrong with Norway?
Over religious, bigoted, self centered and up its own behind. Doesn't sound like a super_realist combo. Yikes

I imagine that's some sort of joke, or you think that Brevik is every Norwegian.

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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:33 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:
super_realist wrote:because there are more important things than that

More important things to a politician than staying in power?? Really??? I'm not sure on that

Well if there wasn't, then the Tories would be actively promoting Scottish independence if it meant they were more likely to stay in power.
You've answered your own question.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:38 am

I haven't as i didn't say it was because of more important things, which isn't really an answer anyway.
What things?
Maybe they've decided it's no help to them staying in power if Scotland go
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:41 am

What's your point then?

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Post by pedro Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:44 am

super_realist wrote:
pedro wrote:
super_realist wrote:What's wrong with Norway?
Over religious, bigoted, self centered and up its own behind. Doesn't sound like a super_realist combo. Yikes

I imagine that's some sort of joke, or you think that Brevik is every Norwegian.
It's not a joke. Didn't even think of Breivik, he's just a symptom. Norwegians are religious and narrow minded (relatively speaking). A classical example of insular small town mentality you see in every outskirt of Europe. Plus a sickening political correctness. But people are usually nice and friendly.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:45 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:I haven't as i didn't say it was because of more important things, which isn't really an answer anyway.
What things?
Maybe they've decided it's no help to them staying in power if Scotland go
Duh. Defense for one thing.
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:46 am

Norway is one of the least religious countries on the planet.

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