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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by JAS Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

McLaren wrote:Right now I would rather we still had Wellbeck and little pea and that Falcao had never arrived.  Not too impressed by the signing of Di Maria either.

"We"?? I'm surprised you associate yourself to an organisation that has squandered over £135 this summer, whilst there are homeless people on the streets and starving children in the world!! They could have spent £135m on those things and left the squad alone, finishing top half would still be ok wouldn't it? Especially if so many peoples lives were improved by redirecting transfer monies to charity.

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Post by Roller_Coaster Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:06 pm

The programme was the first I'd ever heard of him (oh yeah, I really wasn't talking about Mr Federer despite appearances now I look back at the prior post by Davie!).


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Post by incontinentia Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:09 pm

Roller_Coaster wrote:Amazing Man

Was fortunate enough to stumble across a programme about this guy the other week. Wow. Simply wow.
Very interesting, thanks roller.
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Post by navyblueshorts Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:33 pm

McLaren wrote:Jessica Ennis was already one of my favorite people in sport and this only increases the respect I have for her.  (not hero worship super, just a bit of respect)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30046618
She, like the other rent-a-quotes on this subject should keep schtum until the Criminal Cases Review Commission have pronounced on his case. He's served his time and, amazingly, if he doesn't think he's guilty, he's proclaiming that he didn't do anything wrong. Surprisingly, being found guilty of something doesn't, necessarily, make it factually correct.
Ennis' position and that of others advocating further punishment for Evans is simply vigilantism and mob justice.
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Post by kwinigolfer Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:50 pm

clap Eric Brown.

Thanks Roller.

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Post by incontinentia Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:05 pm

Ireland V Scotland tonight. Do the tartan kilt brigade have any chance against the starch-fueled army who drew with the world champions last month? Leprechaun
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Post by super_realist Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:16 pm

incontinentia wrote:Ireland V Scotland tonight. Do the tartan kilt brigade have any chance against the starch-fueled army who drew with the world champions last month? Leprechaun

Starch starved surely Inco?

For once I'm looking forward to the match, even if both teams would be an embarrassment at the Euro's.


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Post by GunsGerms Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:18 pm

I hope they both lose. Is that possible?

England lite vs UK C team. Its going to be really interesting.

Just hope the bigots stay at home and there is no violence.

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Post by super_realist Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:20 pm

GunsGerms wrote:I hope they both lose. Is that possible?

England lite vs UK C team. Its going to be really interesting.

Just hope the bigots stay at home and there is no violence.

Wasn't any violence last time. There's probably never been a time when England, Scotland, Oirland and Wales were so closely matched.
None very good, but there you go.

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Post by westisbest Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:25 pm

super_realist wrote:
incontinentia wrote:Ireland V Scotland tonight. Do the tartan kilt brigade have any chance against the starch-fueled army who drew with the world champions last month? Leprechaun

Starch starved surely Inco?

For once I'm looking forward to the match, even if both teams would be an embarrassment at the Euro's.


Doubt either team would be an embarrassment.

Certainly not the way either team are playing at the moment.

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Post by beninho Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:45 pm

Ched Evans seems morally bankrupt. I am surprised his rich girlfriend has stood by him, even if he keeps declaring his innocence. At best, he took advantage of a girl who had been out and was a bit worse for wear. From my understanding she had agreed to go back to a hotel with his friend, Ched then walked in after the action had started, and asked to join in. Supposedly he pulled the curtains back so some mates could watch and record. The issue comes with whether he asked to join in or just joined in on the presumption it would be fine, and whether she was drunk enough to agree with one but not someone else. I am surprised his girlfriend was fine with that!

I do see no reason why he cannot resume his career as a footballer, I guess it is not part of his release that he cannot play professional football. He has served his time, let him resume his chosen career.

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Post by McLaren Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:49 pm

When you begin to ask if any actions of the victim prior to the r*** change the circumstances think about this simple point. When the sex act began was consent present from both parties? So regardless of what happened up until that point, that is the only question you need to ask.
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Post by incontinentia Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:54 pm

I'm beginning to think Roy Keane's involvement with the Ireland squad may be more of a distraction to the team than a help. First was the furure over his latest book, then this week he gets into an altercation with a fan at the team hotel. Hope he can keep his head down in future and stay out of the limelight
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Post by beninho Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:16 pm

Thats the sticking point it seems Mclaren, Ched Evans claims that consent had been given, the other guy had been given consent. the victim, states she was not to sure, but was drunk. The issue is then, is drunken consent the same as consent, if it can be argued, then it will put a lot of people into dodgy territory me included. We have all had a go with a drunken girl i am sure. He was found Guilty on the basis that the consent as drunk, may not have stood in the eyes of the law. Which is his dispute. I do not think it is a black and white case, but i also do not think it should have an impact on his chosen career. I would not sing his name if he joined Wycombe Wanderers.

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Post by Roller_Coaster Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:40 am

McLaren wrote:When the sex act began was consent present from both parties?  So regardless of what happened up until that point, that is the only question you need to ask.  

A very sensible point.

However (not to cast doubt on the question asked which is the central point) as I understand it he says consent was there, she says she's not sure. Unfortunately the grey area round the black and white principle is where the legal process is involved.

If she is not sure, then proving beyond reasonable doubt his guilt must have relied on an awful lot outside the fundamental question.

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Post by navyblueshorts Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:37 am

beninho wrote:Ched Evans seems morally bankrupt. I am surprised his rich girlfriend has stood by him, even if he keeps declaring his innocence. At best, he took advantage of a girl who had been out and was a bit worse for wear. From my understanding she had agreed to go back to a hotel with his friend, Ched then walked in after the action had started, and asked to join in. Supposedly he pulled the curtains back so some mates could watch and record. The issue comes with whether he asked to join in or just joined in on the presumption it would be fine, and whether she was drunk enough to agree with one but not someone else. I am surprised his girlfriend was fine with that!

I do see no reason why he cannot resume his career as a footballer, I guess it is not part of his release that he cannot play professional football.  He has served his time, let him resume his chosen career.
And you would know this how? As for his girlfriend, that's surely up to her? Obviously, Evans is the only person ever to have done something that daft while in another relationship.

McLaren wrote:When you begin to ask if any actions of the victim prior to the r*** change the circumstances think about this simple point.  When the sex act began was consent present from both parties?  So regardless of what happened up until that point, that is the only question you need to ask.  
That's all well and good Mac, but Evans has always maintained this was consensual. What else do you expect him to do but what he's done/is doing? I sure as Hell wouldn't be apologetic to this person if I knew damned well I hadn't been involved in anything except some stupid, drink-fueled, consensual sex.
Far be it from me to recommend advice from MPB ( kiss ), but have a look at Evans's web site for a moment. Assuming what's there is above board (I assume there'd be an outcry if any was made up or otherwise prejudicial), I'm quite surprised that he was convicted. But then again, who knows what the jury discussed? It would appear as if it's one person's word (Evans's) against the CPS, given, it would appear, that the woman concerned apparently made no complaint of any sort about anything.

Again, I think it would behove the rent-a-quote people to refrain from daft demonstrations of public comment, one way or the other, until the Criminal Case Review has looked at this.
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Post by McLaren Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:40 am

Navy

If you knew someone was totally plastered would you assume they had the full capacity to make an informed decision about consent?
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Post by super_realist Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:42 am

Mac, have you never gone home with someone in a state on inebriation?

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Post by McLaren Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:44 am

Yes, what does that have to do with anything.
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Post by super_realist Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:46 am

McLaren wrote:Yes, what does that have to do with anything.

Did you ask consent prior to getting down to business?

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Post by McLaren Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:52 am

Super

Lets not turn this into a personal attack. (if you really want to know such details then send me a PM)
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Post by kwinigolfer Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:52 am

Mac always has his lawyer present on such spontaneously romantic occasions . . . . .

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Post by super_realist Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:55 am

McLaren wrote:Super

Lets not turn this into a personal attack. (if you really want to know such details then send me a PM)

I don't want to know the sordid details of your carnal activities with your 9C ceiling mounted poster. I'm aware it can't grant consent.
My point was that situations differ greatly, and consent is something which can be appear to be granted only for it to be retracted post-coitus.

You seem to assume that everything is clear cut and don't seem to be aware of the "shades of grey" (probably a bad choice of phrase)

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Post by beninho Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:06 am

Navy,

All i know is that it is confirmed that his mates watched at the window and filmed some of the action. I have read he left the curtains open, but as i say that is supposedly. Though it seems strange that they would not be closed when on the ground floor of a hotel, and you have a girl back to your room. I have read through his website, the most telling line i think is that neither he nor his friend admit to asking if Ched could join in. Both believe that the other asked, and got the positive response.

Of course he is not the only person to shag around behind his girlfriends back, but its not really a good thing. Ive done it, and ive had relationships ended because of it.

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Post by navyblueshorts Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:09 am

McLaren wrote:Navy

If you knew someone was totally plastered would you assume they had the full capacity to make an informed decision about consent?
Mac. Who says she was totally plastered? Cabbie said she was coherent (apparently), she could walk quite easily in pretty large heeled shoes, she (apparently) admitted what she'd had that night was less than typical (so, by implication her biochemistry would have coped quite well cf. a 'typical' load) and blood analysis tended to agree with her verbal recollection of what she'd drunk and, to cap it all, Evans is consistent in saying she apparently did consent. Inebriated enough not to drive? Sure. Paralytic? Nope.
Unless we're all missing something I can't for an instant believe that, given what we do know, any balanced jury could come to a unanimous verdict against him.
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Post by super_realist Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:14 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

If you knew someone was totally plastered would you assume they had the full capacity to make an informed decision about consent?
Mac. Who says she was totally plastered? Cabbie said she was coherent (apparently), she could walk quite easily in pretty large heeled shoes, she (apparently) admitted what she'd had that night was less than typical (so, by implication her biochemistry would have coped quite well cf. a 'typical' load) and blood analysis tended to agree with her verbal recollection of what she'd drunk and, to cap it all, Evans is consistent in saying she apparently did consent. Inebriated enough not to drive? Sure. Paralytic? Nope.
Unless we're all missing something I can't for an instant believe that, given what we do know, any balanced jury could come to a unanimous verdict against him.

Careful Navy Laugh

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Post by navyblueshorts Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:17 am

beninho wrote:Navy,

All i know is that it is confirmed that his mates watched at the window and filmed some of the action. I have read he left the curtains open, but as i say that is supposedly. Though it seems strange that they would not be closed when on the ground floor of a hotel, and you have a girl back to your room. I have read through his website, the most telling line i think is that neither he nor his friend admit to asking if Ched could join in. Both believe that the other asked, and got the positive response.  

Of course he is not the only person to shag around behind his girlfriends back, but its not really a good thing. Ive done it, and ive had relationships ended because of it.
His mates tried to film from the window - nothing was apparently filmed in any clarity or with any accuracy. As for the curtains, that's surely a red herring? It was late April, may well have been light when they went out (so curtains not drawn) and, let's face it, what he was faced with on entering the room may have distracted his thoughts somewhat re. the curtains. Perhaps more pertinent to ask why his mate (whatever his name was) hadn't drawn them. The point re. who asked whom is interesting, but just because that's not clear it's "beyond reasonable doubt"?
He may well be guilty as charged but, as far as I can see, all he's really guilty of is being a stereotypical footballer. Not exactly a crime for all people might abhor it.
Oh well, I guess more will come out in time. Hopefully the childish attempts at vigilante justice will stop...although given how dumb people are, I doubt it.


Last edited by navyblueshorts on Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by navyblueshorts Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:18 am

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

If you knew someone was totally plastered would you assume they had the full capacity to make an informed decision about consent?
Mac. Who says she was totally plastered? Cabbie said she was coherent (apparently), she could walk quite easily in pretty large heeled shoes, she (apparently) admitted what she'd had that night was less than typical (so, by implication her biochemistry would have coped quite well cf. a 'typical' load) and blood analysis tended to agree with her verbal recollection of what she'd drunk and, to cap it all, Evans is consistent in saying she apparently did consent. Inebriated enough not to drive? Sure. Paralytic? Nope.
Unless we're all missing something I can't for an instant believe that, given what we do know, any balanced jury could come to a unanimous verdict against him.

Careful Navy Laugh
Laugh Ah. I missed that one...
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Post by beninho Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:28 am

I hate the witchhunt, its carried out and being driven by the media. It is not a black and white case, and as mentioned it could be either way. But he has served his time, passed by the justice system, he should be allowed to get on with his chosen career. He obviously believes he has done nothing wrong, and that cannot be held against him, we have seen enough miscarriage of justices carried out, some on a much bigger basis then this. The thing is the only people that actually know what happened have different versions. The truth may never come out.

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Post by navyblueshorts Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:38 am

Agree. Not sure both parties have different versions though as it appears the only party who had a version at all was Evans. The woman, apparently, didn't make a complaint - at least not about the sexual encounter.
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Post by beninho Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:19 am

Jess Ennis receiving twitter messages claiming she will be raped. Sometimes you have to hate this world. Has twitter ever achieved anything good?

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:45 am

Evans's lack of remorse (or even, acknowledgment of wrongdoing) is a serious issue I would argue. Rehabilitation surely can only begin when the wrong-doer can admit to his faults. Now Evans may have been victim of a miscarriage of justice (though unlikely, since the justice system usually gets things right after all), but there's no way we can know that.

I honestly don't think I could sleep with a drunk girl, because in my mind she's in no way to give informed consent. I've only been in such a situation - facing a drunk girl who wanted to sleep with me - twice (the last time with my wife, though we were only engaged at the time), and on both occasions have declined. The first one resulted in a somewhat awkward conversation the next time we met (though she did say she was grateful I had declined), the second one my wife had absolutely no recollection the following morning BTW. For me it's a question of respect mainly.

The thing which annoys me most about the Evans case is the level of abuse the victim has received, been forced to move (twice) and change her identity, due to Evans's friends and family harassing her. You would think the least Evans could do would be to speak out publicly against such behaviour, but no, apparently that's all fine by him. And now seems (unfortunately unsurprisingly) that Ennis is going to get the same level of abuse. Obviously we have a long way to go to achieve gender equality still...

So yeah, limited sympathy for Evans from me, sorry. I trust the courts judgement (as I do in pretty much all things, that's what we have a justice system for after all), which means I believe him guilty, and his complete failure to even recognise that he's done anything wrong makes it worse.

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Post by navyblueshorts Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:30 am

beninho wrote:Jess Ennis receiving twitter messages claiming she will be raped. Sometimes you have to hate this world. Has twitter ever achieved anything good?
Yeah. Pathetic isn't it?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Evans's lack of remorse (or even, acknowledgment of wrongdoing) is a serious issue I would argue. Rehabilitation surely can only begin when the wrong-doer can admit to his faults. Now Evans may have been victim of a miscarriage of justice (though unlikely, since the justice system usually gets things right after all), but there's no way we can know that.

I honestly don't think I could sleep with a drunk girl, because in my mind she's in no way to give informed consent. I've only been in such a situation - facing a drunk girl who wanted to sleep with me - twice (the last time with my wife, though we were only engaged at the time), and on both occasions have declined. The first one resulted in a somewhat awkward conversation the next time we met (though she did say she was grateful I had declined), the second one my wife had absolutely no recollection the following morning BTW. For me it's a question of respect mainly.

The thing which annoys me most about the Evans case is the level of abuse the victim has received, been forced to move (twice) and change her identity, due to Evans's friends and family harassing her. You would think the least Evans could do would be to speak out publicly against such behaviour, but no, apparently that's all fine by him. And now seems (unfortunately unsurprisingly) that Ennis is going to get the same level of abuse. Obviously we have a long way to go to achieve gender equality still...

So yeah, limited sympathy for Evans from me, sorry. I trust the courts judgement (as I do in pretty much all things, that's what we have a justice system for after all), which means I believe him guilty, and his complete failure to even recognise that he's done anything wrong makes it worse.
picard If he seriously believes himself innocent (and he may well have good reason to do so), why on Earth is he going to "show any remorse"? An apology not earnestly meant is a complete waste of time, both for this woman and for Evans.
Re. the justice system, it's what we have but guilty != factually correct. His case is under review - wonder what some will say if it's either quashed or doubt cast on the original conviction? Perhaps best to wait for the end of the process.
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Post by SmithersJones Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:35 am

Jury system doesn't help in all this. 12 people without the wits to avoid sitting, or worse, wanting to, rather than 2 or 3 well versed in the law and who've seen it time and time again. I know which I'd prefer.
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:58 pm

If the appeal is upheld then by all means he should be welcomed back into football with no problem (IMO). Worth mentioning that he's already had one appeal rejected... However at the moment he has been found guilty by a court of law. This is no longer a case of "innocent until proven guilty", so the facts (right now) are: we have a convicted r@pist, who refuses to acknowledge that he's done anything wrong, and who's let his friends and family bully his victim to the point where she's had to move (twice) and change her identity.

There are degrees of remorse that can be shown. One would be to acknowledge said bullying as distasteful and distance himself from it. Another would be to admit that he acted poorly (not necessarily an admission of r@pe, obviously). He's shown none of these things, so I can fully understand why Ennis-Hill would not want to be associated in any way with someone who in the light of the facts can only be described as a distasteful character.

had a look at Ched Evans's website BTW. Made me rather ill with the sheer level of vitriol directed at the victim there in various places...

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Post by MustPuttBetter Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:08 pm

What a strange stance to take MFC. At the moment you abhor him as a r***ist but if overturned then you would unabhor him. A bit sheep like, no offence. What about your own opinion? I could understand that stance if you had none of the facts available to form your own opinion but you do. Or if you couldn't really be bothered to read over the facts but then why comment.

As I alluded to earlier, presumably you would have left Nelson Mandela or the Guildford 4 in jail as they were convicted and so there's nothing else to consider?
As you say, the justice system nearly always gets it right so we always always must believe it has. Wouldnt' it be nice if that could be the case, except there's those pesky few times where it doesn't get it right. What an inconvenient pain.
Just for the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying this is definitely one of those times but to say it shouldn't be looked over or that he should be abhorred as an automatic response to having been found guilty I find a little naive if I'm honest
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Post by raycastleunited Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:27 am

I think you have to respect the justice system and say that, while he remains a convicted r***ist, he should not have the opportunity to continue a profession where he acts as a role model. A doctor or politician for example would not be able to continue following conviction.

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Post by I'm never wrong Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:30 am

raycastleunited wrote: A doctor or politician for example would not be able to continue following conviction.
As regards an MP, only if the sentence is imprisonment for longer than 12 months.

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Post by I'm never wrong Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:33 am

I saw part of a debate on this issue on TV where Alistair Campbell was arguing the case for Evans to continue as before, because he had served his sentence. He argued that footballers are not role models, and then spoilt his argument by saying that politicians were.

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Post by navyblueshorts Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:42 am

raycastleunited wrote:I think you have to respect the justice system and say that, while he remains a convicted r***ist, he should not have the opportunity to continue a profession where he acts as a role model. A doctor or politician for example would not be able to continue following conviction.
A Doctor, no, because that's a professional body. A politician?? Not so sure these days but no-one would say they couldn't stand for election - whether anyone votes them in is another matter entirely. Footballers are not role models - anyone who thinks they are, or should be, needs their head examining.
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Post by I'm never wrong Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:52 am

navyblueshorts wrote:Footballers are not role models - anyone who thinks they are, or should be, needs their head examining.
Agreed navy. A specific person with a profession or a job can be a role model, but not the job or profession per se.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:07 pm

Anyway, moving on, this sort of thing makes me really angry:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/14/rosetta-comet-dr-matt-taylor-apology-sexist-shirt

I mean, seriously? A ten-year long mission to bring the probe into orbit around a comet and then land it; ok the landing didn't quite go as planned but it's still a remarkable achievement to even get the probe close to the comet, I mean ten years!!! And the thing that some people find most interesting to talk about is the fact that one of these amazing scientists chose to wear a slightly colourful shirt with pictures of somewhat scantily clad women on it (I really don't see anything remotely shocking in the picture here)?!?! Guy is bullied to the point where he breaks down in tears when delivering his apology. Way to go!

Twits.

rant over...

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Post by lorus59 Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:02 pm

I don't know if this has been discussed before but a simple question, is it good for the UK to remain in the European Union or not?

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Post by beninho Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:27 pm

I'm no expert in European policies or the eu. But I would presume their must be benefits for business, I hear people and politicians say about leaving Europe but no one giving a justifiable reason why or what is wrong with being part of Europe.

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Post by raycastleunited Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:55 pm

Anyone who thinks footballers are / should be role models needs their head examined? That's a bit narrow minded isn't it?  You don't think Beckham is a role model to many people?

I don't think there's a role model switch that you can flick on and off. But if you're going to pay someone huge amounts of money to represent their country, pay them millions to sell things to children and ask them to sponsor charities etc then the least you can expect is that they act as a role model.

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Post by navyblueshorts Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:21 am

raycastleunited wrote:Anyone who thinks footballers are / should be role models needs their head examined? That's a bit narrow minded isn't it?  You don't think Beckham is a role model to many people?

I don't think there's a role model switch that you can flick on and off. But if you're going to pay someone huge amounts of money to represent their country, pay them millions to sell things to children and ask them to sponsor charities etc then the least you can expect is that they act as a role model.
Seriously??? Beckham may be a role model to people but that's their lookout. If anyone expects these people to be an example, more fool them. Being an example isn't part of their job spec. Making money is - anything after that's a bonus.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:26 am

Who's job spec would include 'being a role model'?
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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:35 am

Surely you're a role model within your sport, or to your subordinates?
But to no-one else, though I do understand the responsibility of those who have endorsements to best reflect the lifestyle they project.
Clearly the reason why Woods lost many sponsors - tho' imagine ETW's "companions" knew exactly what they were doing.

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Post by navyblueshorts Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:37 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Anyway, moving on, this sort of thing makes me really angry:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/14/rosetta-comet-dr-matt-taylor-apology-sexist-shirt

I mean, seriously? A ten-year long mission to bring the probe into orbit around a comet and then land it; ok the landing didn't quite go as planned but it's still a remarkable achievement to even get the probe close to the comet, I mean ten years!!! And the thing that some people find most interesting to talk about is the fact that one of these amazing scientists chose to wear a slightly colourful shirt with pictures of somewhat scantily clad women on it (I really don't see anything remotely shocking in the picture here)?!?! Guy is bullied to the point where he breaks down in tears when delivering his apology. Way to go!

Twits.

rant over...
Jeezus! Agree 100%. What an absolute bunch of tossers some people are? What's even more hysterical (ironically, a good choice of word here methinks) is that his damned shirt was designed and made, apparently, by a woman.
If this sort of thing wasn't real, no-one would think to make it up picard.

Where's Mac?? We need his input here... Whistle
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Post by navyblueshorts Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:38 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:Who's job spec would include 'being a role model'?
Precisely.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:45 am

My point being just because no one's job spec includes being a role model, or just because no one signs up to be a role model, surely doesn't mean no role models exist?
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