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PGA Tour: Justin Time for some Leadership: Notes from the Ballwasher

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

Not much to talk about this week apart from the bleedin' obvious so let's keep it short:

1).I reckon this Ryder Cup will be won or lost by the very best of the European Team, and that means some new leadership on the course is necessary. And I'd say Justin Rose needs to be the man to step it up a notch.
There'll be loads of focus on Rory, Sergio, Poults, but Rose goes under the radar much of the time and it's time for him to take an excellent RC record and make it even better.
Or, another way of putting it, we can't have no-shows by our best:
~a la Faldo & Woosnam in 1991, or:
~Garcia, Harrington and Westwood in 2008.

2).If Europe's best don't excel, I expect it to be the Steady Eddies of the US Team to take advantage, Kuchar, Zach Johnson and Jimmy Walker especially. On the other side of their coin, Watson seems to rely over much on past partnerships of Simpson & Watson (plus their "scriptures") and Bradley and Mickelson. Don't see it happening and it looks like they'll be further weakened by Furyk having to baby-sit Patrick Reed after, anecdotedly, most of the US Team expressed a wish not to play with Top Five.

3).Europe will miss the leadership of Luke Donald, no doubt about that. Lots made of Poulter's Saturday evening brilliance in the Medinah gloaming, but US were up 10-4 before Luke and Sergio knocked off Woods & Stricker; Luke played, for me, the shot of the year (physically - a 6-iron inches from the cup after Woods had put his tee-shot within a couple of feet - and psychologically) on the 17th that day, then went out first and dusted Bubba on the Sunday, leading the charge to victory.

4).Would think that the US will rue the absence of Dufner and Dustin, and hopefully they'll be the greater loss.

5).Meanwhile, I'll echo Geoff Ogilvy's words on the Ryder Cup quoted last week by Doug Ferguson:
"As a TV spectacle, it's far better than the Super Bowl. Only one comes close - the 100 metres in the Olympics. Maybe. And it only lasts 10 seconds. Golf generally is not overly suspenseful on TV, but that is off the charts."

Certainly my favourite sports event, and I can't wait!

EUROPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by navyblueshorts Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:26 am

kwinigolfer wrote:nbs,
Happy to agree to differ with you!
The US PGA went backwards in appointing Watson; he was out of touch thru'out the process and frustration of the players showed.
Perhaps not the time or the place, but it's about time the PGA was made accountable for their blunders.
Phil out of form? Perhaps, but good enough to runner-up to Rory in the PGA. Plus he earned 2 points.
And Bradley was "picked" precisely because they were a proven partnership.

Nice comment by Jason Sobel:
"Phil and Watson agree on one thing: It was Tiger's fault."!
Disagreement is what it's all about! Be a bit boring otherwise Smile.
I'm not sure I get this "out of touch" thing. Or age-difference etc. I think it's an excuse.
Phil played better than I expected but that doesn't excuse his terrible behaviour. Maybe this RC has, more or less, shown the absurdity of the Captains' picks. Top 12, end of story. Alternatively, pick rookies!
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Post by pedro Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:27 am

For a start I'd revise the qualification process. Begin the qualification period later but add a week in the other end (like Europe) and scrap the idea of double points for majors. And ask for 4 picks.

Not sure Dustin Johnson would have made a difference, Dufner maybe. But they need to say goodbye to the likes of (wounded war vets) Furyk, Zach, Mahan and maybe Phil. And of course Tiger. And also Dustin IMO.

Fat Pat comes across as a pr!ck but he's the type of guy they need more of. Not sure either he or Billy Ho will be around in 2 years time, but lets see.

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Post by McLaren Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:00 pm

I have been harsh about McGinley on here quite a few times about how moronic he seems to be based on his TV appearances. So it is only fair that I should post this article, and say that I found him to be likable and not at all moronic.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/ryder-cup/paul-kimmage-interview-ryder-cup-captain-paul-mcginley-forged-in-gaa-furnace-30584751.html

It is old so maybe most of you have read it but any thoughts on it would be appreciated.
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Post by robopz Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:48 pm

I'm not sure if i agree or disagree with the point Phil was making about team captains... but the results are what they are... and we certainly got our heads handed to us AGAIN... so I'd have to go along that something needs to be fixed.  

So the contents of Phil's comments aren't an issue to me this week...  The issue is there's a 1) time and a 2) place and a 3) way to voice one's differences without being a total a-hole about it... and on #'s 1, 2 & 3 the way and the timing of how Phil addressed the captaincy situation was a TOTAL classless FAIL in my opinion.

But the worst part of this whole thing is WHY did Phil do it. IMO It had absolutely nothing to do with Phil being bummed with another disappointing American loss... or thinking he had a better way to captain a team. it was Phil's freeking FIGJAM ego resurfacing when he felt he'd been slighted by not being played on Saturday. So starting Saturday afternoon Phil's attitude was "damn the torpedoes... Screw Watson.. and I'm going to make that bastard look as bad as I possibly can... no matter how negatively it affects the team or or anybody else... " And that's what he tried to do...

Well guess what Phil... BACKFIRE... Who's the one who looks like an A-hole now... YOU, you freeking idiot. And Chamblee is absolutely correct... for many this Ryder Cup will be remembered by the STAIN of the classless way Phil Mickelson handled himself this week... and it's something many will NEVER forget.

Here's a clue... Regardless of HOW it's done, IMO the edge the Euro's have over us is they're "all for one, and one for all".  It appears to me they really do feel a stronger sense of team than the Americans, and somehow they manage to channel that "spirit" into better play.  Coming into this week, I kind of thought the USA team had more of a "all for one" attitude too.... but then hearing about Phil being the only one of the 12 players to skip the team flight and fly over on his own, and then witnessing Phil throwing Watson under the bus starting Saturday and tripling down on it during the press conference... guess I was wrong about that.


Last edited by robopz on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by pedro Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:00 pm

The thing about Phil flying on his own is a shocker. Why Phil why? He really comes across as a bitter man who was upset right from the beginning, or actually before. Why? Keegan was picked. Why were you upset? Sitting out on Saturday can't be the only thing. Is it Tom not talking to you about the pairings/tactics? You only redeemed yourself by actually playing ok.

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Post by navyblueshorts Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:02 pm

robopz wrote:...Coming into this week, I kind of thought the USA team had more of a "all for one" attitude too.... but then hearing about Phil being the only one of the 12 players to skip the team flight and fly over on his own, and then witnessing Phil throwing Watson under the bus starting Saturday and tripling down on it during the press conference... guess I was wrong about that.
He flew over on his own? For no reason other than because he could? Maybe the problem wasn't Watson, but a self-entitled, ego-centric eejit who was maybe undermining everything that Watson et al were trying to do?
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Post by pedro Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:06 pm

Sounds like the German football team back in the days. (Main difference is that they won though)

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Post by navyblueshorts Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:13 pm

pedro wrote:Sounds like the German football team back in the days. (Main difference is that they won though)
Or the Dutch....and they've also (almost) won sweet Fanny Adams. Talented individuals....but that's all they've been, far too many times.
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Post by super_realist Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:14 pm

pedro wrote:The thing about Phil flying on his own is a shocker. Why Phil why? He really comes across as a bitter man who was upset right from the beginning, or actually before. Why? Keegan was picked. Why were you upset? Sitting out on Saturday can't be the only thing. Is it Tom not talking to you about the pairings/tactics? You only redeemed yourself by actually playing ok.

Phil was pictured disembarking the jet when it landed in Edinburgh.

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Post by pedro Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:18 pm

super_realist wrote:
pedro wrote:The thing about Phil flying on his own is a shocker. Why Phil why? He really comes across as a bitter man who was upset right from the beginning, or actually before. Why? Keegan was picked. Why were you upset? Sitting out on Saturday can't be the only thing. Is it Tom not talking to you about the pairings/tactics? You only redeemed yourself by actually playing ok.

Phil was pictured disembarking the jet when it landed in Edinburgh.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/rydercup/11127653/Phil-Mickelson-flies-home-alone-from-Gleneagles-after-Ryder-Cup-tirade-at-USA-captain-Tom-Watson.html


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Post by robopz Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:20 pm

pedro wrote:The thing about Phil flying on his own is a shocker. Why Phil why? He really comes across as a bitter man who was upset right from the beginning, or actually before....
Funny you should say that. My wife is only a causal observer of the game and Phil has been her favorite (Maybe as much for being the "anti-Tiger" than just liking Phil herself). But she too made almost the exact same comment yesterday during the press conference... saying it sounded like he had "grumpy old man" syndrome.

But i think it's something different... IMO, not just this episode, but over the last year or two, he's been showing too many signs that indicate perhaps the old FIGJAM deal with him never really went away, he'd just hidden it better over the last 8-10 years than before. And up until 2004-06-ish... that FIGJAM deal was well, well earned. But I thought he went through and epiphany of sorts, much like Payne Stewart had maybe 6-8 years before his untimely death.

With Phil, maybe it was getting with Butch Harmon who straightened him out, or maybe it was him finally having major success, or maybe it due to the troubled birth of his son Evan and he reevaluated. I don't know what the cause... but from about that time forward Phil had come across as a much more likable guy, not only with Fans, but with other players and media as well.

Well... IMO this classless episode pretty much un-does a lot of that "good will" he had rebuilt among so many... and IMO while I still admire his play when he's got it going... and I still hope he can somehow manage to remain competitive for at least a few more years... It's also pretty apparant FIGJAM is back.

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Post by super_realist Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:21 pm

Fair enough, he's probably played his last RC match anyway, and given his shiversome record, it won't be much of a loss

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Post by pedro Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:23 pm

super_realist wrote:Fair enough, he's probably played his last RC match anyway, and given his shiversome record, it won't be much of a loss
Still I think he could make a decent captain.


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Post by robopz Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:24 pm

Super... Phil did NOT fly to Scotland with the team... He was at the airport when the team arrived... and then went up on the steps of the plane to pose with the team as the other 11 were disembarking...

This from the article linked below: "Unlike the Americans who came over on one plane (all except for Phil Mickelson, who was already in town and greeted his teammates on the tarmac at the airport)... "

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2014/09/22/usa-ryder-cup-team-arrives-gleneagles-tom-watson/16048939/

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:24 pm

s_r,
He just turned up, put on the same clobber the rest had on, and got on the stairway to heaven. Stupid, unbelievably stupid and selfish.

There's got to be more to this than meets the eye. I had the definite feeling that Phil was speaking for more than himself - no-one came out strongly against what Phil said, remember, even Furyk was diplomatic about it rather than sticking up for Watson.

There's an interesting piece by John Huggan in this morning's GolfWorld about Faldo's comments about Sergio at Valhalla. If Huggan is right, this will have greater long-term repercussions than Phil's outburst.

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Post by pedro Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:30 pm

robopz wrote:Super... Phil did NOT fly to Scotland with the team... He was at the airport when the team arrived... and then went up on the steps of the plane to pose with the team as the other 11 were disembarking...

This from the article linked below: "Unlike the Americans who came over on one plane (all except for Phil Mickelson, who was already in town and greeted his teammates on the tarmac at the airport)... "

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2014/09/22/usa-ryder-cup-team-arrives-gleneagles-tom-watson/16048939/
Maybe Phil only flies "Star Alliance"? Certainly he doesn't seem like a "OneWorld" advocate. laughing

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Post by robopz Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:34 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:There's an interesting piece by John Huggan in this morning's GolfWorld about Faldo's comments about Sergio at Valhalla. If Huggan is right, this will have greater long-term repercussions than Phil's outburst.
Thanks for the heads-up on the Huggan piece... and Yeah... I had commented about Faldo's comments about Sergio elsewhere... BOTH situations were examples of an extreme lack of class by Faldo and Phil.

Faldo should have NEVER opened his mouth on the topic, that was private "team room" stuff and should have remained between Nick and Serigo.

Phil's situation is a little different. While I think he absolutely has the right to voice his opinions on future captains or what he thinks is the best path to future USA success in Ryder Cups... there's a time, place and way to do it. Saturday and Sunday in Scotland was the wrong time and place... and I believe the way Phil did it was with the intent of inflicting the MAXIMUM humiliation on Watson he possibly could... Totally classless IMO

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Post by navyblueshorts Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:09 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:...There's an interesting piece by John Huggan in this morning's GolfWorld about Faldo's comments about Sergio at Valhalla. If Huggan is right, this will have greater long-term repercussions than Phil's outburst.
Sorry Kwini, I'm being a bit thick. Do you have a link to that piece??
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Post by MustPuttBetter Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:16 pm

I didn't realise Phil had flown over on his own. That really is poor!
And then he's surprised when he's not in on the team decisions, hmm.....

Did he expect to be the main man with Tiger not around? He's clearly taken offence at something

It's interesting how the Europeans foster a better 'all for one' attitude than the Americans given the Americans are actually all from the same country, speak the same language etc. you'd think it should actually be easier for them
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Post by super_realist Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:33 pm

With the likes of Ryder Cup dead beats like Furyk, MIckelson, 9C most likely finished in the competition, you'd hope America might be able to put up a better fight in future, sure, they'll still have dross like Fowler and Watson, but hopefully some of the young players on both teams are going to produce some more exciting events.

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Post by Sand Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:42 pm

Think it was quite poor of both Phil and Faldo this week to come out the way they did. Faldo was really stupid with what he said about Sergio as from how the players reacted in the press conference, its quite clear they all thought he was a terrible captain yet never once as any of them broke rank to criticise Faldo since 08.

Phil certainly didn't cover himself in glory, flying over himself and then his go at Watson was very classless for a guy who is generally seen over the globe as the complete opposite.

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Post by super_realist Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:48 pm

Yeah, poor form from Faldo and from Mickelson.

The telling bit is the defence of Garcia from his team-mates, and that's the big difference between the two, Europe is clearly a strong, cohesive team, America just isn't as complete a team.

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Post by navyblueshorts Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:49 pm

Sand wrote:...Faldo was is really stupid...
There we go. That's all that was needed re. Faldo...
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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:58 pm

robopz wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:There's an interesting piece by John Huggan in this morning's GolfWorld about Faldo's comments about Sergio at Valhalla. If Huggan is right, this will have greater long-term repercussions than Phil's outburst.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Huggan piece... and Yeah... I had commented about Faldo's comments about Sergio elsewhere...  BOTH situations were examples of an extreme lack of class by Faldo and Phil.    

Faldo should have NEVER opened his mouth on the topic, that was private "team room" stuff and should have remained between Nick and Serigo.  

What makes this even more crass is that in the same edition of GolfWorld, Faldo is being lauded as the 2014 Payne Stewart Award.  Way to go, PrNick

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Post by incontinentia Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:25 pm

I'm guessing Sergio won't be having Faldo over for fried chicken any time soon.
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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:52 pm

navy,
I couldn't link it earlier, but here you go.


http://www.golfworldmonday.com/golfworldmonday/20140929?sub_id=m6YFz2X7vbcH#pg30

Think Faldo himself has broken the omerta . . . . . . . !

Grumps,
Irony registered with moi aussi! Faldo the annual exemplar of character and sportsmanship!!


Meanwhile, Back in the comparitively banal day-to-day grind of the PGA Tour, Humana have announced they are not renewing their contract on the "Bob Hope" after this coming January's tournament.
A new problem for Finchem who's answered the call almost every time up 'til now.

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Post by John Cregan Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:27 pm

Ah Nick Faldo.........here were 3 beauties fromhis 2008 Opening Ceremony speech:

1. "Soren Stenson"
2. Greame McDowell from "one of the Irelands"
3. Padraig Harrington "who has hit more golf balls than they have potatoes in Ireland"

No.3 must have been a gag he heard Super Realist give!!

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Post by pedro Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:14 pm

In a way I think 2 & 3 are quite releiving. Golf (especially American) is too much up its own behind.

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Post by super_realist Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:36 pm

John Cregan wrote:Ah Nick Faldo.........here were 3 beauties fromhis 2008 Opening Ceremony speech:

1. "Soren Stenson"
2. Greame McDowell from "one of the Irelands"
3. Padraig Harrington "who has hit more golf balls than they have potatoes in Ireland"

No.3 must have been a gag he heard Super Realist give!!

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

Maybe Faldo isn't so bad after all. Leprechaun

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Post by robopz Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:06 pm

incontinentia wrote:I'm guessing Sergio won't be having Faldo over for fried chicken any time soon.
Almost spewed my Dr Pepper on that one... Very Happy

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Post by John Cregan Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:09 pm

super_realist wrote:
John Cregan wrote:Ah Nick Faldo.........here were 3 beauties fromhis 2008 Opening Ceremony speech:

1. "Soren Stenson"
2. Greame McDowell from "one of the Irelands"
3. Padraig Harrington "who has hit more golf balls than they have potatoes in Ireland"

No.3 must have been a gag he heard Super Realist give!!

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

Maybe Faldo isn't so bad after all. Leprechaun

Loook a da Oirish winnin those 3 majors!!

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:14 pm

Mac,
That's a great interview with McGinley. Thanks.

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Post by McLaren Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:03 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Mac,
That's a great interview with McGinley. Thanks.

yes, I really enjoyed reading it too. Quite a few little details that reveal a lot about several players.
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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:08 pm

Mac,
I'll return the favour with this outstanding perspective on Watson and Mickelson:

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/joe-posnanski/us-got-ryder-cup-captain-it-hired/?cid=twitter-gc-a-the-man-they-hired-092914

I don't read Posnanski's stuff very often but I really thought he did a good job here.

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Post by pedro Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:27 pm

With all the stick Watson is getting I wonder if the PGA can even find someone willing to take the job?

Surely if you have big ego you'd love the job, but I doubt that'd be the kind of type they'd be looking for next.

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Post by JAS Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:50 am

McLaren wrote:I have been harsh about McGinley on here quite a few times about how moronic he seems to be based on his TV appearances.  So it is only fair that I should post this article, and say that I found him to be likable and not at all  moronic.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/ryder-cup/paul-kimmage-interview-ryder-cup-captain-paul-mcginley-forged-in-gaa-furnace-30584751.html

It is old so maybe most of you have read it but any thoughts on it would be appreciated.

Yeah fascinating article Mac. I did think he was the right choice right from the word go and so it has proved.
I now understand why Clarke wasn't a vice captain. Must have been a big call for him to select Westwood as a pick as well given that Lee was for backing DC for the Captaincy (Understandable given their history as a pairing in previous Ryder Cups) I also got the impression that Westwood was selected as much for his team room personality than current form. As it turned out it was a good call as Westwood nurtured Donaldson well for the first 2 days.

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Post by super_realist Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:50 am

Good article Mac, McGinley seems a genuinely good guy, and I liked the San Diego lift story.
I don't think there is any doubt that there is much more to being a captain than we know or what meets the eye and McGinley probably did the best job yet in terms of a truly team performance.

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Post by pedro Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:57 am

Yes impressed by McG. Europe now has many star players and players who've accomplished alot so I was unsure whether they could get motivated.

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Post by McLaren Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:04 am

kwinigolfer wrote:Mac,
I'll return the favour with this outstanding perspective on Watson and Mickelson:

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/joe-posnanski/us-got-ryder-cup-captain-it-hired/?cid=twitter-gc-a-the-man-they-hired-092914

I don't read Posnanski's stuff very often but I really thought he did a good job here.

Thanks kwini. It backs up what is being said in quite a few stories. eg http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/ryder-cup-2014-tom-watson-phil-mickelson-team-usa


I am still not convinced the score of the ryder cup can be changed by having a competent or great captain, you just need to avoid having a captain that fails to pander to the over pampered pro golfer.
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Post by beninho Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:14 am

I did not realise Mcginley and Clarke had such a big fallout. I suppose that answers why he was not a VC. Will it have an impact on the next captain, i doubt Mcginley will hold it against him though. Clarke would seem th logical candidate though, maybe MAJ, but is his english good enough?

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:17 am

kwinigolfer wrote:navy,
I couldn't link it earlier, but here you go.


http://www.golfworldmonday.com/golfworldmonday/20140929?sub_id=m6YFz2X7vbcH#pg30

Think Faldo himself has broken the omerta . . . . . . . !
Thanks Kwini. Reading between the lines here, it's obvious that Faldo was worse than bad. I'm not at all surprised as throughout his career he's been entirely for himself - whomever gave him the Captaincy should hang their heads in shame. OK when playing in strokeplay comps on ones own but in any other environment, poison. How the Americans swallow his brand of rubbish is anyone's guess.
Hopefully, he'll get enough of what's coming to make it clear he was utter horse in '08 w/o any of the players having to really demean themselves over it.
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Post by super_realist Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:29 am

I think you can sum up Faldo's Captaincy by him having his son and DJ Spoony on the team.

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Post by raycastleunited Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:23 pm

super_realist wrote:Good article Mac, McGinley seems a genuinely good guy, and I liked the San Diego lift story.
I don't think there is any doubt that there is much more to being a captain than we know or what meets the eye and McGinley probably did the best job yet in terms of a truly team performance.

My favourite bit of the article was this:

"The meeting started. They asked me and Monty to leave and we went back to our rooms. My brother was with me. We're in the room about 10 minutes and there's a knock on the door. I'm thinking 'Jesus Christ! That's quick!' I open the door and it's Rory and Shane (Lowry): 'We thought you needed some company.' They came in and lay on the bed. My cousin had baked me a tin of oatmeal cookies and we had a bit of banter while Shane ate them all." laughing

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Post by super_realist Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:39 pm

Laugh

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Post by pedro Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:58 pm

Legendary Ray.

but if we didn't know better, it could've been the intro to a g@y p0rn movie.

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Post by incontinentia Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:17 pm

I'm sure Lowry will be participating in Hazeltine in 2016, great partner for Rory as they are good mates. Maybe should've got a pick instead of Gallacher this time. He's been playing well enough to warrant it.
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Post by super_realist Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:38 pm

Lowry would only be fit enough to play in 3 matches. Needs to up his game a bit though in my opinion.
Be good to see Fat Shane against Fat Pat.

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Post by incontinentia Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:49 pm

P/rick Reed vs Poulter would be a fun match.
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Post by pedro Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:52 pm

incontinentia wrote:I'm sure Lowry will be participating in Hazeltine in 2016, great partner for Rory as they are good mates. Maybe should've got a pick instead of Gallacher this time. He's been playing well enough to warrant it.
Would question his allegiance. Being Irish and fat he's as close to being American as you can be.

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Post by incontinentia Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:29 pm

Smile nice one Pedro
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