The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Best golfer here?

+22
Hibbz
kingraf
Nay
Roller_Coaster
kwinigolfer
oldshanker
longgame
Bob_the_Job
Shotrock
BlueCoverman
Davie
George1507
beninho
JAS
1GrumpyGolfer
navyblueshorts
McLaren
ralphjohn69
MustPuttBetter
pedro
super_realist
incontinentia
26 posters

Page 1 of 6 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Best golfer here?

Post by incontinentia Tue 21 Oct 2014, 12:27 pm

Following on from the Handicap thread, who is the best/lowest handicapper currently contributing to the golf board?

Of course there were a few tasty golfers on the old 606- Rory Mac and Lee Westwood undoubtedly top of the pile.

Think super is the lowest I've seen, 2 if I remember correctly. Anyone lower than this?
incontinentia
incontinentia

Posts : 3788
Join date : 2012-01-06
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by super_realist Tue 21 Oct 2014, 12:30 pm

I think there is quite a few lower than me Inco, seem to remember a Scratch and a plus 1 around.

super_realist

Posts : 27802
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by pedro Tue 21 Oct 2014, 12:56 pm

In my armchair I'm a scratch handicapper at worst.

pedro

Posts : 7240
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by MustPuttBetter Tue 21 Oct 2014, 1:30 pm

Maverick was +25 before he left us, rest his soul
MustPuttBetter
MustPuttBetter

Posts : 2951
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 42
Location : Woking

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by Roller_Coaster Tue 21 Oct 2014, 1:38 pm

Certainly not me! Off 5, occasionally more and been to 4 (didn't like it down there! Straight back up each time).

Reckon I'd be about 7 or 8 off a longer, tougher course and probably 12+ round a good links (links golf doesn't like me!)

Obviously I'm off +2 or 3 in the post round disection down the pub...

Roller_Coaster

Posts : 2572
Join date : 2012-06-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by ralphjohn69 Tue 21 Oct 2014, 2:13 pm

Play off 2 but, as SR says, there must be lower than that on here; I'm not even the lowest handicapper in my family as my brother plays off scratch at the moment (he's came down from 5 in the last 2 seasons, the little $hit!)

Longgame will be off about +2 by this time next year if he maintains his current rate of progression........ Wink

ralphjohn69

Posts : 248
Join date : 2011-06-07
Age : 43
Location : Uphall, West Lothian, Scotland

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by McLaren Tue 21 Oct 2014, 3:11 pm

If I were to get a handicap, I would be lucky to be single figures given how little practice I have had over the last 5 years or so. My ball striking is ok, but i can no longer control where the ball goes as often as needed, shape the ball or get the damn thing up and down around the green.
McLaren
McLaren

Posts : 16928
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by super_realist Tue 21 Oct 2014, 3:31 pm

Braids is very tight in places too Mac.

super_realist

Posts : 27802
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by Roller_Coaster Tue 21 Oct 2014, 3:43 pm

McLaren wrote:If I were to get a handicap, I would be lucky to be single figures given how little practice I have had over the last 5 years or so.  My ball striking is ok, but i can no longer control where the ball goes as often as needed, shape the ball or get the damn thing up and down around the green.

I never could!

Roller_Coaster

Posts : 2572
Join date : 2012-06-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by navyblueshorts Tue 21 Oct 2014, 4:02 pm

Not me. Off 3 now, briefly made 2. Can't get enough time practicing/playing to make it stick or, in my dreams, get lower.

Anyone know what "longgame" is off?
navyblueshorts
navyblueshorts
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 10218
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Off with the pixies...

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by Roller_Coaster Tue 21 Oct 2014, 4:06 pm

Navy - Just down to 2.6 per the handicap thread, but the trajectory indicates still improving/recovering former figures.

Roller_Coaster

Posts : 2572
Join date : 2012-06-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by Roller_Coaster Tue 21 Oct 2014, 4:30 pm

Extending the thread to beyond the elite gross golfers, what's a realistic best round for everyone?

I'd gone up to 7 earlier this year and shot a gross -2 so 9 better than h/cap which is likely to be round about my best achievable, maybe could have been 1 or 2 better looking back (3 putted 17 for par and 18 for bogey) but realistically that might be my zenith. Had 2 comps at -1 gross previously (1 in each of last year and the year before) and 1 practise round off yellows also -1 about 4 years ago.

We had a 18 h/cap (been playing for years and had been shooting upper 30's a few times this year so not a totally unrealistic or unreprasentative h/cap) who shot +4 gross (level back 9 with 1 dog 1 bog) for 50 points.

So not necessarily banditry but realistically what could you expect to shoot/what are your best laps if you have one of those days where it works.

Roller_Coaster

Posts : 2572
Join date : 2012-06-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by kwinigolfer Tue 21 Oct 2014, 4:39 pm

You never know: I had only been playing a few months, shot a 34 on a Par-35 front nine, including a 3-putt. Chipped in from just off the green twice but didn't make anything longer than about 6 foot otherwise.

That was 35 yrs ago and have never come within two shots of par on any 9-holes since, only broken 80 in a round a dozen times but I still remember every shot of those 34!

kwinigolfer

Posts : 26475
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Vermont

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by super_realist Tue 21 Oct 2014, 4:40 pm

Ive had a round of -5, a few -4's and a smatterring of -3's. Maybe once or twice a season though, certainly not with any regularity.

Could genuinely have been -10 on Kingsbarns this year, hit 16 greens with nothing longer than about 12 foot for birdie. Typically though, with driving and irons on form, something had to give. Came off very frustrated although tee to green probably the best i've ever played.

super_realist

Posts : 27802
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by MustPuttBetter Tue 21 Oct 2014, 4:59 pm

I shot a gross 74, 5 over, off a handicap of 17 earlier this year in the middle of a run that saw me come down from 17 to 11 in about 3 months. That's my best ever gross score over 18 holes.

There's a 9 hole pars 3 and 4 only course near me. Proper length holes but no par 5s. I've done that in level par twice, once with 9 pars, but not so easy over 18!
MustPuttBetter
MustPuttBetter

Posts : 2951
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 42
Location : Woking

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by super_realist Tue 21 Oct 2014, 5:05 pm

Still never had a round without a bogey. Had 2 where I bogeyed the first hole, and even one where I birdied none until bogeying the last with a three putt.


super_realist

Posts : 27802
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by MustPuttBetter Tue 21 Oct 2014, 5:08 pm

I remember the first time i thought I was going to do a level par (part) round. I went out one evening with a friend for a 9 hole knockabout for a beer and scored 8 pars and then 3 putted the last for bogey. I was absolutely gutted!!
MustPuttBetter
MustPuttBetter

Posts : 2951
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 42
Location : Woking

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by incontinentia Tue 21 Oct 2014, 6:14 pm

Still haven't seen anyone lower than 2. I bet our american chaps robo/GPB/shotrock have skills.
incontinentia
incontinentia

Posts : 3788
Join date : 2012-01-06
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Tue 21 Oct 2014, 6:25 pm

Not so sure about that Inco, think age, injury, and work might be getting in the way.

I've a 6 index playing off 7.  Lowest round for me is a 74 (+4).  Had that a couple of times and the last time was with level par back nine (three birds, pars, and bogies) and after taking 5 to get down from pin high on the 9th.  Best front nine has been +1.  There's always at least one hole that ruins a good score for me.

1GrumpyGolfer

Posts : 3314
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Pennsylvania

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by navyblueshorts Tue 21 Oct 2014, 8:55 pm

What's George off? What was he off in his pomp? Have a feeling it might have been pretty low.

I reckon I might hit a -3/-4 if absolutely everything went right on a given day. I tend to be pretty consistent but don't often shoot any lights out.
navyblueshorts
navyblueshorts
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 10218
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Off with the pixies...

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by ralphjohn69 Tue 21 Oct 2014, 9:36 pm

My course is a par 69, css 68; lowest I've shot is 64 5 years ago when I was playing off 4; had a couple of 65's and quite a few 66's & 67's, mediocre season this year though with only 1 under par round (a 67); have also gone bogie free in medal rounds 3 times. I've played both 9's of my course in 30, sadly not in the same round though as course record is 61!

It is a fairly short course (5600 yards) but is very tight so also possible to run up some high numbers if not playing well and a bit off line!

ralphjohn69

Posts : 248
Join date : 2011-06-07
Age : 43
Location : Uphall, West Lothian, Scotland

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by JAS Wed 22 Oct 2014, 8:46 am

Certainly not me, I'm now clinging on to 4 by the fingernails, not complaint tho as I've exceeded expectations this year. I would also say I'm a fairly cosmopolitan 4 as the cuts down from 6 this year have been on 4 different courses.

With regard to best round (not counting match play) was shooting level par 71 round my home track a few weeks ago to win an event, was also lowest gross on the day as well.

Haven't beaten par but I have beat the CSS shooting a 69 when the CSS was 70 (par 68) at Carnoustie Burnside 3 years ago. Had a 69 again this year but CSS was 69 this year.

JAS

Posts : 4633
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 59
Location : Swindon

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by beninho Wed 22 Oct 2014, 12:16 pm

I hack of 21 ( not official) am i the worst?

beninho

Posts : 6736
Join date : 2011-01-28
Location : NW London

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by kwinigolfer Wed 22 Oct 2014, 4:44 pm

I doubt it ben,
I'll claim that honour, struggling now to break 100 off typical men's tees (say 6,250 yds).

kwinigolfer

Posts : 26475
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Vermont

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by George1507 Wed 22 Oct 2014, 5:29 pm

Navy - I'm off 3 or 4 now. I'm oscillating between the two.

I did play off scratch for a few years, I think I may have been +1 for a while. That was in the 1970s and 1980s though, and I've been slowly heading north since about 1990. The long game is still quite good, but I can't chip it very well any more and my putting is dreadfully tentative these days.

Strange to relate though, the lowest round I can ever remember having was just two years ago. It was winter rules, and forward tees, but I finished with a 63 round a par 72 course. It was also the only bogey free round I can ever remember having.


George1507

Posts : 1334
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by incontinentia Thu 23 Oct 2014, 8:36 am

George- do you find technology makes the game much easier as oposed to 30/40 years ago?
incontinentia
incontinentia

Posts : 3788
Join date : 2012-01-06
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by pedro Thu 23 Oct 2014, 8:55 am

ben, I'm around 20 as well (not official). Haven't played for 2 years though.

pedro

Posts : 7240
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by McLaren Thu 23 Oct 2014, 9:25 am

It is weird that there is no one on here with an official handicap higher than 5.
McLaren
McLaren

Posts : 16928
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by George1507 Thu 23 Oct 2014, 9:40 am

Inter - yes, the driver is easier to hit and goes further and straighter than it used to - even with balls from the 1980s. The current ball goes much further. I played at Muirfield and Troon in the last few weeks, and I was on the 11th at Troon and the 17th at Muirfield with a drive and a hybrid. I remember lashing away with a driver and a three wood years ago and not getting it close. Not the back tees or anything, but probably the same tees I played from years ago.

I'm not sure whether the irons are any easier. Club for club they go further for sure, but that's because Taylormade (for example) have rubbed out the five on the bottom of the club and replaced it with a six. They certainly go further when I don't make good contact. On the down side, they fly lower than they used to (again because of the decreased loft) and are harder to hit cleanly out of the rough.

All this messing about with lofts means that I struggle with distances inside 100 yards. 60 and 70 yards are fine because I have wedges for those, but 75-95 means hitting a half shot which I struggle with these days - again maybe partly because of the clubs I think. The heads are bigger and it's a bit harder to make clean contact on shorter shots. Also I seldom practice these days, so I can't really expect to be good. Certainly at the start of a round, I'm happy just to get it somewhere on the green rather than firing it at the pin like I used to.




George1507

Posts : 1334
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by navyblueshorts Thu 23 Oct 2014, 9:50 am

George1507 wrote:...The current ball goes much further...
I always find that odd although I have no doubt it's true. There's regulations re. initial ball velocity I thought at impact but I wouldn't have thought improved aerodynamics of the ball would be that much better. Ball aerodynamics are interesting though - I definitely don't see as much wind shear with a cross-wind using a modern ball as I remember with older balls in the 70s/80s.
navyblueshorts
navyblueshorts
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 10218
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Off with the pixies...

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:22 am

McLaren wrote:It is weird that there is no one on here with an official handicap higher than 5.

Did you read the thread?

My USGA index is 6.2. Course handicap 7

MPB is now an 11 handicap - official

I know of another poster, currently not on this thread, that has an official handicap between 20 and 22. In the summer they were off 21.2 when we played.

Selective reading Mac?

1GrumpyGolfer

Posts : 3314
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Pennsylvania

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:24 am

McLaren wrote:It is weird that there is no one on here with an official handicap higher than 5.

My official handicap is 11
I might be the highest official handicap on here king
MustPuttBetter
MustPuttBetter

Posts : 2951
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 42
Location : Woking

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by McLaren Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:29 am

I would say 11 is still quite low for the highest handicap for a group of golfers. When you look at the handicap lists in most club locker rooms very few players are as low as the people on here.
McLaren
McLaren

Posts : 16928
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:34 am

More importantly, do i get a prize?
MustPuttBetter
MustPuttBetter

Posts : 2951
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 42
Location : Woking

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by incontinentia Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:35 am

Mac, have another read. Pedro-20 , beninho-21, kwini-100 shooter. I'm off 12 on a good day.
incontinentia
incontinentia

Posts : 3788
Join date : 2012-01-06
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:36 am

Think they're all unofficial Inco
12 my backside, you're just trying to steal my prize
MustPuttBetter
MustPuttBetter

Posts : 2951
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 42
Location : Woking

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by incontinentia Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:45 am

The wooden spoon will be mine Hug
incontinentia
incontinentia

Posts : 3788
Join date : 2012-01-06
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by Davie Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:51 am

Mine is official - currently 22.0 exact (up from the 21.7 when I played Grumps)

Davie

Posts : 7817
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 61
Location : Berkshire

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by McLaren Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:52 am

Davie

What is the lowest you have ever been?
McLaren
McLaren

Posts : 16928
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:59 am

Davie wrote:Mine is official - currently 22.0 exact (up from the 21.7 when I played Grumps)

Ridiculous
MustPuttBetter
MustPuttBetter

Posts : 2951
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 42
Location : Woking

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by Davie Thu 23 Oct 2014, 11:46 am

Why ridiculous MPB?

Mac - Lowest official has been 21 (can't remember the exact). I've only been a club member with official handicap for last 5 years though - played many years before that with unofficial handicap around 18-19 (very easy short course though)

Davie

Posts : 7817
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 61
Location : Berkshire

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by BlueCoverman Thu 23 Oct 2014, 12:40 pm

McLaren wrote:It is weird that there is no one on here with an official handicap higher than 5.

Not true...I'm currently off 5.5! Laugh

BlueCoverman

Posts : 1145
Join date : 2011-04-19
Location : Essex

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 23 Oct 2014, 12:52 pm

Davie wrote:Why ridiculous MPB?

Mac - Lowest official has been 21 (can't remember the exact). I've only been a club member with official handicap for last 5 years though - played many years before that with unofficial handicap around 18-19 (very easy short course though)

Only because you've swooped in and nicked my prize
MustPuttBetter
MustPuttBetter

Posts : 2951
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 42
Location : Woking

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Thu 23 Oct 2014, 12:53 pm

BlueCoverman wrote:
McLaren wrote:It is weird that there is no one on here with an official handicap higher than 5.

Not true...I'm currently off 5.5!  Laugh

Sandbagger!!

1GrumpyGolfer

Posts : 3314
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Pennsylvania

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by Shotrock Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:20 pm

Current index 13.1, but was a 9 a few years back. My dilemma is not unique: Given family and work demands I do not have much time for golf, so I play rather than practice (which would help me improve my scores). I would absolutely prefer to spend time with my golfing friends on the course v solo practice.

But, hey, I play quickly, properly and can tell a good joke!

Shotrock

Posts : 3807
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Philadelphia

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by Davie Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:40 pm

Interestingly if my dodgy knee holds up I'm due to play in an end of season board comp on Sunday .. open only to people who have had top 2 places in medals (all divisions) through the summer. Off 22 I'm the highest handicapper in the field

Davie

Posts : 7817
Join date : 2011-01-27
Age : 61
Location : Berkshire

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by Bob_the_Job Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:40 pm

I'm off 12. Best round ever was 6 over around RCD.. off the middle tees.. on a perfect day.
Bob_the_Job
Bob_the_Job

Posts : 1344
Join date : 2011-02-09
Location : NI

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by Roller_Coaster Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:02 pm

Sorry MPB - looks like you've lost out on a back 9 to a higher handicapper.

Always happens doesn't it...

Rolling Eyes

Roller_Coaster

Posts : 2572
Join date : 2012-06-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by longgame Thu 23 Oct 2014, 4:41 pm

2.6 currently so cannot claim that honour. Would hope to be 1.something this time next year.

Was + figures in 05/06 but unless I win the lottery or a driving range is built at one of our offices il never get there again.

There is very little difference between scratch and 3 Handicappers IMO.
(Unless your a 3 handicap who only ever plays at his home club which is a short course, then there will be a big difference)

Played a lot of scratch team this year and a couple of local scratch opens so feel that my game & handicap stand up to the test.

I played with a few of guys who were 1/scratch/+1 by mid teens and they now play off anywhere between 1-5.
Only players who get to +2/+3 (and stay there) show a tangible difference to a 2/3 handicapper over 18/36 at your average course.

a Plus2/3 will probably shoot 4/5 under only 15% of the time, but 73/74 on a bad day - most +figure guys play lots of regional stuff and in my experience the CSS always goes up a couple of shots. so as long as you don't completely hack it you can usually buffer or even nick a point or 2 for shooting close to par.
I played in the Prince of Wales Trophy at woburn once years back, Standard Scratch went up 3 in the morning and 4 in the afternoon! I think I finished about 4/5 over for the day (cant remember but I broke 150) and got cut a point or 2

longgame

Posts : 50
Join date : 2014-04-07

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by George1507 Thu 23 Oct 2014, 5:09 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
George1507 wrote:...The current ball goes much further...
I always find that odd although I have no doubt it's true. There's regulations re. initial ball velocity I thought at impact but I wouldn't have thought improved aerodynamics of the ball would be that much better. Ball aerodynamics are interesting though - I definitely don't see as much wind shear with a cross-wind using a modern ball as I remember with older balls in the 70s/80s.

Yes, I don't understand it either.

The Pro V1 ball (for example) spins less than the old Balata Titleist it replaced around 15 years ago. The flights of these two balls are really different. The old Balata ball seems to start lower, then climb higher and come down steeper. The flight of the Pro V1 seems to be more like an arc. It runs further on the fairway, and doesn't stop as quickly on the green. My impression also is that it is less affected by crosswinds than the old Balata ball. It is more resilient - the old Balatas used to scuff up pretty quickly while the Pro V1 looks fine even after a few rounds, assuming you aren't landing it on roads.


George1507

Posts : 1334
Join date : 2011-01-27

Back to top Go down

Best golfer here? Empty Re: Best golfer here?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 6 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum