Best golfer here?

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the Handicap thread, who is the best/lowest handicapper currently contributing to the golf board?

Of course there were a few tasty golfers on the old 606- Rory Mac and Lee Westwood undoubtedly top of the pile.

Think super is the lowest I've seen, 2 if I remember correctly. Anyone lower than this?

They just walk/drive/cycle/run across without even looking.  It's a public road, but there's signs and often marshalls on either side requesting they wait until it's safe to cross, but they just dawnder about like headless chickens.

If I'm not carrying the road with ease, it's a very poor shot or very windy indeed.

Wish they'd just get rid of the road. It's utterly pointless to keep it there.

Super

Navy's post makes me wonder if we are talking about slightly different things when it comes to playing in the wind. I thought we were only talking about the distance a club goes in the wind.

But even introducing deflection from target due to wind, I will still favour navy's theory of high low spin shots in the wind. Not having to force the shot as much makes it much easier to allow for the deflection from target. The chance of some contorted low ("under the wind") shot being a duff are higher than misjudging how much the wind will move a high low spin shot right or left.

Depends Mac, high shots with short irons suffer terribly in wind due to the high backspin keeping it in the air, against the wind, that's a disaster, the skill is judging "how many club wind" it is.
I prefer to play when I'm not "riding the wind", I'd rather try and play a draw or a fade into the prevailing wind.

navyblueshorts wrote:

raycastleunited wrote:...If you're struggling to carry 160 with a 4 iron...

Love the way what's been posted before get's altered. It was 170 as I recall, it wasn't mentioned that it was a "struggle" and that's carry.

No. Hend clearly said 160 - it's on page 4 - look it up.

"i know at least 2 Cat 1 players who are probably about 160 carry or less with a 4i."

navyblueshorts wrote:

raycastleunited wrote:Yes. Category 1 at the local pitch and putt...

Sorry but Cat 1 is Cat1. SSS/CSS should take care of the differences in the courses.

Come on Navy, you don't honestly believe that SSS is an accurate reflection of the difficulty of a golf course? It is a pretty inadequate guide for handicap players. SSS is rarely more than +/-1 from par, but I'm sure we've all played with someone who has a handicap from an easier course and then gets nowhere near it on tougher layouts. The slope system used in US and Europe seems to be much more comprehensive.

A while ago I was chatting to a group of guys from a public course near me. They had gone to Montecastillo, and none of them were able to score more than 30 points, even off the yellow's (handicap range 3 - 15). But I've nearly always played to handicap round there, even off the white's. I know my home course is a lot tougher than theirs, but my handicap is worth more than the 1 shot SSS difference on the scorecard.

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:...Often try to hit a low one though and see if I can give the pedestrians crossing the road a fright.

Hope your insurance is all paid up!

Wow Super, that's a hell of a risk. You can assume that a fair proportion of the gormless pedestrians are litigious US tourists, walking around with their lawyer on speed dial!

raycastleunited wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:...Often try to hit a low one though and see if I can give the pedestrians crossing the road a fright.

Hope your insurance is all paid up!

Wow Super, that's a hell of a risk. You can assume that a fair proportion of the gormless pedestrians are litigious US tourists, walking around with their lawyer on speed dial!

Mostly gormless students actually Ray, however the chance of hitting one is miniscule because if I'm not carrying the road, I've hit one of the worst drives I've ever hit.

raycastleunited wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

super_realist wrote:...Often try to hit a low one though and see if I can give the pedestrians crossing the road a fright.

Hope your insurance is all paid up!

Wow Super, that's a hell of a risk. You can assume that a fair proportion of the gormless pedestrians are litigious US tourists, walking around with their lawyer on speed dial!

Mostly gormless students called Trinny and Hugo actually Ray, however the chance of hitting one is miniscule because if I'm not carrying the road, I've hit one of the worst drives I've ever hit.

raycastleunited wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

raycastleunited wrote:...If you're struggling to carry 160 with a 4 iron...

Love the way what's been posted before get's altered. It was 170 as I recall, it wasn't mentioned that it was a "struggle" and that's carry.

No. Hend clearly said 160 - it's on page 4 - look it up.

"i know at least 2 Cat 1 players who are probably about 160 carry or less with a 4i."

Maybe. Although Mac made the first reference to this on the same page, which is what I was alluding to:

McLaren wrote:If I hit a 4 iron from the tee on a 380 yard hole I would probably need the same again into the green.  Or more if uphill or into the wind.

Even at 340 I would be tempted to get it close enough to hit a short wedge shot rather than a mid iron, and would need a mid iron if I had hit 4 iron from the tee.


I know I always say this but it is odd how long the people on this board are.  I am only out driven when I play with very good players, and I drive it around 250 to 260.

If needing to make a forced carry I would not be willing to hit a 4 iron from more than about 170 out.

raycastleunited wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

raycastleunited wrote:Yes. Category 1 at the local pitch and putt...

Sorry but Cat 1 is Cat1. SSS/CSS should take care of the differences in the courses.

Come on Navy, you don't honestly believe that SSS is an accurate reflection of the difficulty of a golf course? It is a pretty inadequate guide for handicap players. SSS is rarely more than +/-1 from par, but I'm sure we've all played with someone who has a handicap from an easier course and then gets nowhere near it on tougher layouts. The slope system used in US and Europe seems to be much more comprehensive.

A while ago I was chatting to a group of guys from a public course near me. They had gone to Montecastillo, and none of them were able to score more than 30 points, even off the yellow's (handicap range 3 - 15). But I've nearly always played to handicap round there, even off the white's. I know my home course is a lot tougher than theirs, but my handicap is worth more than the 1 shot SSS difference on the scorecard.

Maybe, but we have what we have. CSS is what's used to calculate handicaps in any case and, for example, I've heard tell it be as high as 78 at Hollinwell (near me) with the SSS maybe 5 shots less.
To be fair to that Montecastillo crowd, they went and played it once? Did they know the course at all? I'd bet they'd get better quite quickly if they played it, say, half a dozen times and picked up some local dos and don'ts.

I said

"If needing to make a forced carry I would not be willing to hit a 4 iron from more than about 170 out"

You will see that I went on to say this was to do with the risks involved with such a shot. For some reason mustputt got stuck on this concept and continued to assume that not hitting a 4 iron from 170 in one scenario meant you could or would never hit a 4 iron from 170.

I wasn't really challenging your ability Mac, as you don't claim to be a Cat 1 golfer, and you were talking about your risk assessment for a 170 yard carry, not your ability to hit that far.

What I was challenging is Hendo's comment that he knows 2 Cat 1 players who struggle to carry 160 with a 4 iron. Just can't see how they could play to Cat 1 standard on a longer course, it must be on a pitch and putt handicap. My home course isn't even that long, and it's par 72 / SSS 72, but they would struggle to reach maybe half the holes in regulation.

navyblueshorts wrote:CSS is what's used to calculate handicaps in any case and, for example, I've heard tell it be as high as 78 at Hollinwell (near me) with the SSS maybe 5 shots less.

I thought CSS could only go to SSS + 3 and after that becomes reductions only?

Davie wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:CSS is what's used to calculate handicaps in any case and, for example, I've heard tell it be as high as 78 at Hollinwell (near me) with the SSS maybe 5 shots less.

I thought CSS could only go to SSS + 3 and after that becomes reductions only?

Dunno. Just checked and the SSS is 73 off yellow and 74 off white. Pretty sure my mate said the CSS was 78 once not that long ago but then maybe he got it wrong or I misheard :shrug:.

I suppose he might have referred to a comp off their Championship tees as well - SSS of 76 from them against par 72. Ouch! Played that a few times and it's tough, to say the least.

navyblueshorts wrote:I suppose he might have referred to a comp off their Championship tees as well - SSS of 76 from them against par 72. Ouch! Played that a few times and it's tough, to say the least.

How do you think a Cat 1 golfer who struggles to carry 160 with a 4 iron would fare round there off the champ tees?

raycastle

You seem to have a very firm idea about what you can extrapolate about a player who hits a 4 iron 160.

Given the amount of variables in determining a golf score how can one data point provide you with such confidence about how that player will score?

raycastleunited wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:I suppose he might have referred to a comp off their Championship tees as well - SSS of 76 from them against par 72. Ouch! Played that a few times and it's tough, to say the least.

How do you think a Cat 1 golfer who struggles to carry 160 with a 4 iron would fare round there off the champ tees?

"struggles to carry 160 with a 4-iron"? This Cat 1 player is getting worse and worse it would seem. Mac mentioned 170 for a 4-iron initially and that started this discussion off.

It would be difficult - of course it would. It's damned hard the times I've tried it and I carry my 4-iron maybe 190-195 in Summer. Then again, let's assume this Cat 1 player is a 4 hcp. You might expect them, on a decent day (i.e. to handicap), to get around the Championship setup at Hollinwell in about 80. I don't think that's at all unfeasible tbh. He could play bogey golf on 8 holes deliberately if he made par on the other 10 and this is someone who, presumably, has a better than average short game.

one of the guys i regularly play who hits it this short hits a really low ball flight with alot of run. he hits alot of hybrids and FW woods year round. in winter he tends not to be competitive but these competitions arent counting in my club from october till march. He has a great short game and in the summer he doesnt seem to struggle for distance ,but he struggles mainly come from being unable to hold greens- he is regularly landing it short of greens and ending up thru the other side.

McLaren wrote:raycastle

You seem to have a very firm idea about what you can extrapolate about a player who hits a 4 iron 160.

Given the amount of variables in determining a golf score how can one data point provide you with such confidence about how that player will score?

The point is that a player who hits a 4 iron 160 is not going to make many greens in regulation. Even with an oustanding short game, it is always going to be tough to maintain a cat 1 handicap.

hend085 wrote:one of the guys i regularly play who hits it this short hits a really low ball flight with alot of run. he hits alot of hybrids and FW woods year round. in winter he tends not to be competitive but these competitions arent counting in my club from october till march. He has a great short game and in the summer he doesnt seem to struggle for distance ,but he struggles mainly come from being unable to hold greens- he is regularly landing it short of greens and ending up thru the other side.

Sounds like your course is set up to allow a running approach. How does he cope when playing to a green which is elevated or has a forced carry in the front (eg water or sand)?

navyblueshorts wrote:
"struggles to carry 160 with a 4-iron"? This Cat 1 player is getting worse and worse it would seem. Mac mentioned 170 for a 4-iron initially and that started this discussion off.

Don't know why you are being so stubborn and coming back to this point navy. Hend clearly said
"i know at least 2 Cat 1 players who are probably about 160 carry or less with a 4i."

raycastleunited wrote:

hend085 wrote:one of the guys i regularly play who hits it this short hits a really low ball flight with alot of run. he hits alot of hybrids and FW woods year round. in winter he tends not to be competitive but these competitions arent counting in my club from october till march. He has a great short game and in the summer he doesnt seem to struggle for distance ,but he struggles mainly come from being unable to hold greens- he is regularly landing it short of greens and ending up thru the other side.

Sounds like your course is set up to allow a running approach. How does he cope when playing to a green which is elevated or has a forced carry in the front (eg water or sand)?

he definitley does struggle on those holes relative to other players of similar handicap but on my course the holes with water in front (4 out of 27 holes) tend to be a bit shorter than the average par 4. there is one hole though that is quite long and ive seen him bale out to the rhs before

raycastleunited wrote:

McLaren wrote:raycastle

You seem to have a very firm idea about what you can extrapolate about a player who hits a 4 iron 160.

Given the amount of variables in determining a golf score how can one data point provide you with such confidence about how that player will score?

The point is that a player who hits a 4 iron 160 is not going to make many greens in regulation. Even with an oustanding short game, it is always going to be tough to maintain a cat 1 handicap.

For a start, it's carry and not total yardage. Second, let's say they carry it 160, call it 165 total. I'd then suggest you might expect them to hit a 3-iron 175 (total), a 5w maybe 185-190 (total), a 3w maybe 200-210 (total ) and a driver probably 230-235ish (total).
So on, say a 425 yard par-4, how is it that you think they won't hit it in regulation? Driver, 5w (or 3-iron). These are good players so lets assume they make good contact most times (they'd have to after all to be Cat 1 with their yardages). I don't see what's so hard to fathom here. If they miss the target, they have a good short game. I assume also, that they're pretty good at course management - again, they'd have to be.

raycastleunited wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:
"struggles to carry 160 with a 4-iron"? This Cat 1 player is getting worse and worse it would seem. Mac mentioned 170 for a 4-iron initially and that started this discussion off.

Don't know why you are being so stubborn and coming back to this point navy. Hend clearly said
"i know at least 2 Cat 1 players who are probably about 160 carry or less with a 4i."

But that isn't where the discussion started. It's a nonsense really anyway. There are Cat 1 players who don't carry a 4-iron more than 170 (or maybe even 160). No-one has even suggested they're close to a majority of Cat 1 players and they could hold a 5.4 handicap. Carp about how handicaps are worked out and merits of CSS at different courses etc 'till Hell freezes over but it doesn't alter the fact.

It is all worth considering what it means by a player hitting a 4 iron 160.  If they know that is the yardage that gives them the best outcomes over time, compared to using the club for longer yaradages, and it is a truthful representation of their yardage then 160 4 irons for cat 1 makes perfect sense.

Whatever people on here are claiming they hit 4 iron I would like to bet >70% of the time they come up short of that claim.  Maybe navy's friend has worked this out and plays the club best suited to the yardage on average.

Like I said earlier Mac, I bet the overwhelming majority believe they hit what they are expected to hit, rather than they are aware of what they actually hit.

I haven't measured my yardages for a couple of years, it would be interesting to see how they have changed.

I think what has been proven us that it is certainly possible to have a Cat 1 handicap but not carry 160-170 with a 4 iron as I don't think for a second that Hend is making this guy up.
By the same token however I think it's accepted that it's not the norm and must be very difficult to maintain so the amount of opposition to the surprise at hearing someone who claims to do this is itself surprising

MustPuttBetter wrote:I think what has been proven us that it is certainly possible to have a Cat 1 handicap but not carry 160-170 with a 4 iron as I don't think for a second that Hend is making this guy up.
By the same token however I think it's accepted that it's not the norm and must be very difficult to maintain so the amount of opposition to the surprise at hearing someone who claims to do this is itself surprising

Haha yeah he has a short hitting daughter too that plays off +4 - only hits a 4 iron 30 yards and averages .4 putts per GIR

McLaren wrote:It is all worth considering what it means by a player hitting a 4 iron 160.  If they know that is the yardage that gives them the best outcomes over time, compared to using the club for longer yaradages, and it is a truthful representation of their yardage then 160 4 irons for cat 1 makes perfect sense.

What are you even trying to say here? This is just verbal diarrhoea

MustPuttBetter wrote:I think what has been proven us that it is certainly possible to have a Cat 1 handicap but not carry 160-170 with a 4 iron as I don't think for a second that Hend is making this guy up.
By the same token however I think it's accepted that it's not the norm and must be very difficult to maintain so the amount of opposition to the surprise at hearing someone who claims to do this is itself surprising

Yes exactly. Don't think Hend is making this guy up either, but the course must be friendly for the shorter hitter... I'm sure there are plenty of courses where he would struggle to play to handicap (whatever the SSS / CSS).

hend085 wrote:

MustPuttBetter wrote:I think what has been proven us that it is certainly possible to have a Cat 1 handicap but not carry 160-170 with a 4 iron as I don't think for a second that Hend is making this guy up.
By the same token however I think it's accepted that it's not the norm and must be very difficult to maintain so the amount of opposition to the surprise at hearing someone who claims to do this is itself surprising

Haha yeah he has a short hitting daughter too that plays off +4 - only hits a 4 iron 30 yards and averages .4 putts per GIR  

the legend lives on. Wonder whatever happened to Maverick's daughter, she must be a teenager now. Probably on tour. Lydia Ko?

navyblueshorts wrote:
For a start, it's carry and not total yardage. Second, let's say they carry it 160, call it 165 total. I'd then suggest you might expect them to hit a 3-iron 175 (total), a 5w maybe 185-190 (total), a 3w maybe 200-210 (total ) and a driver probably 230-235ish (total).
So on, say a 425 yard par-4, how is it that you think they won't hit it in regulation? Driver, 5w (or 3-iron). These are good players so lets assume they make good contact most times (they'd have to after all to be Cat 1 with their yardages). I don't see what's so hard to fathom here. If they miss the target, they have a good short game. I assume also, that they're pretty good at course management - again, they'd have to be.

I'm not so sure Navy. In my experience, people with a slow swing who don't generate enough ball speed to get the ball airborne for 160 yards with a 4 iron, struggle to get much more distance. I would guess driver distance of only 200 yards all in. But then this is a bit silly for us both to start extrapolating so I'll leave it there.

I've played with plenty of older guys who swing like a metronome and keep it arrow straight but short. The main challenge I would have thought is how you take on a forced carry or an elevated green.

raycastleunited wrote:

hend085 wrote:

MustPuttBetter wrote:I think what has been proven us that it is certainly possible to have a Cat 1 handicap but not carry 160-170 with a 4 iron as I don't think for a second that Hend is making this guy up.
By the same token however I think it's accepted that it's not the norm and must be very difficult to maintain so the amount of opposition to the surprise at hearing someone who claims to do this is itself surprising

Haha yeah he has a short hitting daughter too that plays off +4 - only hits a 4 iron 30 yards and averages .4 putts per GIR  

the legend lives on. Wonder whatever happened to Maverick's daughter, she must be a teenager now. Probably on tour. Lydia Ko?

Ha ha

raycastleunited wrote:...I've played with plenty of older guys who swing like a metronome and keep it arrow straight but short. The main challenge I would have thought is how you take on a forced carry or an elevated green.

Sure, but how often is one faced with that sort of shot from >160 yards out? I can't think of many instances on all the courses I know around my area.

I'm not sure how this thread ended up with a 'how far do you hit a four iron' discussion, but it did.

I think NBS is right - only on very modern courses do you find forced carries of more than 160 yards (assuming you have hit a reasonable drive). A par four of more than 420 yards with a pond in front of the green is effectively a par five for about 90% of the men who will play it in normal conditions.

I think most people HAVE hit a four iron a lot further than 160 yards, but they don't probably don't do it regularly. I play often with guys who say they can hit a four iron 180 yards, and they will pull out a four iron regularly from that distance. Most of the time they are short or wide of the green because they know they have to hit it flush to get there - and don't. Anytime club golfers swing at 90% or more, they aren't likely to make good contact - especially in the winter.

I've tried over the years to get people to understand the concept of MODAL distance - what distance does your four iron go most frequently? If the answer is 160 yards then that's the club you should be playing from that distance. Sometimes, if you really ping one then you'll be over the back and possibly in trouble. But that will be evened out - and more - by the number of times you don't go in the front bunker or the pond or miss the green to the right. It doesn't gel with most people though, they pull out a club that will get them there perhaps 20% of the time, and end up missing the green - usually short.

Course conditions and wind affect distances a lot too. Guys who hit it low are likely to struggle in the winter with carrying it far enough. Quite often they can't hit a four iron any further than a five iron, or even a six iron. Different ball flights of course, but they don't really have the firepower to hit a four iron 180 yards through the air. Playing them in the summer is a harder proposition - 20 or 30 yards of roll on their drives and second shots means they will be putting for birdies instead of chipping trying to save pars.

I reckon I hit it further than most people I know, but my average drive is only 235-245 in the winter. I'm realistic about it though, hitting a 300 yarder downwind isn't any more indicative than having to hit a driver on a 200 yard par 3 into the same wind. I wonder why I see guys - who we both know aren't as long as me - hitting the same club as I'm contemplating hitting from 10 yards further down the fairway.

It's up to them of course, but an easy way to reduce their scores would be to hit one more club for their second shot. If that's a 3 wood instead of my five iron, then so what?

Very true George.

Surely that would be the most frustrating feeling in golf: flushing a long iron straight at the pin but then watching it sail 20 yards past and disappear into the bushes because you selected the club based on modal distance!

Yes it would be frustrating but not as frustrating as hitting a low scunner that stings your fingers and hurtles into the pond like a malfunctioning exocet.

Yesterday was for me the first day of true winter yardages. The cold was knocking at least 10 yards off shots until the sun got up and it warmed up a few degrees.

Same here for me. Played Saturday in cool and wet conditions and a noticeable drop-off in yardages.

Lowest player on the old 606 board (excluding midgetmac and LW1) was a member who went by the name of S57player (about 5 years ago) wasn't a prolific poster. Since then he he became an England regular, turned pro off +5 this year.

There was a fellow named goldwolf on here who was pretty sh1t hot . . . . . . .

(Another of your Dad's heroes bit the dust, I see, Malcolm Finlayson.)

Think we have quite a few lower than +5 on here.

pedro wrote:Think we have quite a few lower than +5 on here.

Think you might be confusing 5 with +5; I'd be very surprised if there was anyone better than +5 on here!!

Either that or he was being ironic :P

American irony?

Sorry I was confusing +5 with 5.

But a few ones on here defo talk like they're +5.

I can't quite match that. I'm plus fours.




Well that's what I wear to play golf

I'm plus 5. Sometimes, on the odd occasion, it's after the round. Other times, on hopefully rare occasions, it's after two holes. Damn stupid game, it'll never catch on.

kwinigolfer wrote:There was a fellow named goldwolf on here who was pretty sh1t hot . . . . . . .

Well, he was ok on his day, problem is his day wasn't very often. Though he did beat s57player a few times!

kwinigolfer wrote:(Another of your Dad's heroes bit the dust, I see, Malcolm Finlayson.)

Yep shame, he was talking about him just a few days before.

How's things? Up to your neck in snow?

Hi gw,
Not too bad, nothing like our friends in the South Buffalo area.
Both of our teams going through a sticky patch just recently (well, ours has lasted five years).
And Eddie Stuart also joined the wolves in the heavenly Molyneux.

Hope all is well and your lad is getting out on the course . . . . .