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R&A Pace of Play Questionnaire

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super_realist
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Post by Roller_Coaster Wed 22 Oct 2014, 11:17 am

R&A Pace of Play Questionnaire

I guess many of you may get this through your clubs from the R&A anyway but thought it might be worthy of sticking in a topic. Only takes a couple of minutes to do anyway (and probably won't make the blindest bit of difference). Sorry if the inserted link is cocked up the address is:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/PaceofPlayTest



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Post by Davie Wed 22 Oct 2014, 11:58 am

Thanks - I've completed it

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 22 Oct 2014, 12:00 pm

Cheers Roller. FWIW, they now have my opinions!
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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Wed 22 Oct 2014, 5:08 pm

Added my two cents / pence

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Post by McLaren Wed 22 Oct 2014, 10:10 pm

Done.

The key to quicker play is shorter rough.
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Post by GPB Wed 22 Oct 2014, 10:49 pm

McLaren wrote:Done.

The key to quicker play is shorter rough.


BINGO! When I was forced to quit golfing several years ago, I was considering quitting the game. Among other reasons, my home course decided to go "Lean and Mean" and cutback on fuel costs so they didn't mow the rough as often.

Rounds were taking 30-40 minutes longer because people couldn't find their golf ball in the rough. Particularly hard on the holes that had blind landing areas.

Rough should be no longer than 1.5" for day to day play.

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Post by SmithersJones Wed 22 Oct 2014, 11:04 pm

Sorry to tell you it's not the only cause. We have next to no rough whatsoever on our course, yet slow play means our group doesn't get 18 holes in over the winter teeing off at 12-12.30.
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Post by BlueCoverman Wed 22 Oct 2014, 11:46 pm

1GrumpyGolfer wrote:Added my two cents / pence

Yep also done. I had to add an hour to the length of time taken when playing with you though Grumps, seeing as you're usually late...  laughing

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Post by Plunky Wed 22 Oct 2014, 11:58 pm

Our gap between tee times is 8 minutes so it doesn't take much to cause a hold up.

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Thu 23 Oct 2014, 12:25 am

BlueCoverman wrote:
1GrumpyGolfer wrote:Added my two cents / pence

Yep also done. I had to add an hour to the length of time taken when playing with you though Grumps, seeing as you're usually late...  laughing

Oi, That's covered by Visitors, not Playing with Grumps. No need to single me out.....

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Post by McLaren Thu 23 Oct 2014, 9:12 am

SmithersJones wrote:Sorry to tell you it's not the only cause. We have next to no rough whatsoever on our course, yet slow play means our group doesn't get 18 holes in over the winter teeing off at 12-12.30.

Such as?
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Post by super_realist Thu 23 Oct 2014, 9:22 am

McLaren wrote:Done.

The key to quicker play is shorter rough.

There is far more to slow play than rough Mac.

1. People walking too slowly
2. People not being ready to play.
3. People taking practice swings, simply not necessary.
4. People not watching where their ball has gone and spending too long to look for it.
5. People leaving bags where they have to go backwards to pick it up.
6. People standing on the green looking backwards counting up their shots.
7. People not hitting a provisional when in doubt.
8. Clubs insisting on tee times too close together.
9. Players taking far too long on pre shot routines.
10. Choppers waiting for a green 260 yards away to clear when they can only hit it 200.
11. People using ride on buggies and having to drive between 2 players.

Not one of those points relates to the course layout/condition at all. Everything down to the players and course admin and I've probably missed out a handful too.

Most courses in winter have virtually no rough, yet are not appreciably quicker other in that there might be fewer people playing.
Even in summer, If I tee off first, I'm getting round in less than 3 hours easy, the rough is still there at 10am when people will take 4 hours to get round.
Rough is only one small contributory factor, the main problem as it always has been, is golfers themselves.

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Post by Bob_the_Job Thu 23 Oct 2014, 9:40 am

12. People having just watched a major spending 5 minutes on the green plumb-bobbing, doing the Adam Scott finger, the Bradley stink eye and then leaving it 6 feet short and starting all over again...to make sure they get their 8.
13. People using trolleys,  not carry bags so they stop just off the green to fill in the card rather than do it as they walk.

But from that list 1, 2, 4, 7 and 10 are the biggest issues in my opinion.


EDIT: Just thought of one more:

14. Long par 3's early in the round. For most mid/high handicappers they might as well be par 4's and yet they can't hit their tee shot until the group in front is off the green, yet they don't often hit the green.
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Post by McLaren Thu 23 Oct 2014, 9:44 am

I don't agree with points 1, 3, 5, 6, 10

I somewhat agree with 2, 8, 9

Agree with 4, 7, 11

Although 9 is very annoying.


4 and 7 are linked to rough and lost balls, it is true that players could better tailor their behavior when balls are lost, but assuming golfers are as ignorant as they seem then removing the rough is the best way to go.
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Post by super_realist Thu 23 Oct 2014, 9:51 am

Mac, as a course design advocate, how can you justify getting rid or shortening rough?

The onus is on the player to A) Employ a suitable course management technique to avoid trouble, and B) Actually watch where their ball goes.

I'd happily have non competition rounds have a 3 minute limit on looking for a ball.

Playing at a venue where tourism is rife, I can assure you that points 1-11 contribute greatly to long rounds, especially as rough simply isn't a concern most of the year at St. Andrews.

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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 23 Oct 2014, 9:53 am

McLaren wrote:Done.

The key to quicker play is shorter rough.
Partly. Personally, I think it's people dicking around on the greens. Marking when it's totally unnecessary, lining up marks on a ball with predicted putt lines etc etc etc. Also, too many people don't do their pre-shot stuff when their partners are hitting.
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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 23 Oct 2014, 9:55 am

Bob_the_Job wrote:12. People having just watched a major spending 5 minutes on the green plumb-bobbing...
That's ridiculous isn't it? Plumb bobbing has no value what-so-ever and yet people still do it.
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Post by Roller_Coaster Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:04 am

I know of a couple of plumb-ists and I don't even understand what the theory is?

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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:24 am

Roller_Coaster wrote:I know of a couple of plumb-ists and I don't even understand what the theory is?
I'm not sure there is one. Black magic maybe?
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 23 Oct 2014, 10:32 am

I agree re plumb bobbing. I don't get it at all and even asked a guy i was playing with who did it what it was about and he could barely explain!

I also agree with Mac re long rough. Of course there are other factors potentially but in terms of the whole course backing up it's usually because a group somewhere has had a couople of holes on the spin spending time looking in the rough, often on par 5s where people might be going for the big one
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Post by super_realist Thu 23 Oct 2014, 11:45 am

Plumb bobbing works for me

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Post by Bob_the_Job Thu 23 Oct 2014, 12:29 pm

My point was more that they take an age, use three techniques and get an outcome which is no better than standing up and hitting it with their eyes closed.
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Post by super_realist Thu 23 Oct 2014, 12:33 pm

I've usually done my alignment, placed the ball on the line before the first person to putt has let their ball go.

Just as bad as slow pay though is people desperate to get round in an unrealistic time.

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Post by Bob_the_Job Thu 23 Oct 2014, 12:47 pm

Agreed - I've no interest in rushing for the sake of it - but standing 100 yards out on a par 5 while 4 people take an age to putt and then wander off the green chatting somewhat grinds my gears.
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Post by BlueCoverman Thu 23 Oct 2014, 12:47 pm

super_realist wrote:Plumb bobbing works for me

Me too...so much easier to see the correct line

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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 23 Oct 2014, 12:50 pm

Blue and SR, are you serious re plumb bobbing? if so, can you explain it to me?
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Post by BlueCoverman Thu 23 Oct 2014, 12:55 pm

Bob_the_Job wrote:Agreed - I've no interest in rushing for the sake of it - but standing 100 yards out on a par 5 while 4 people take an age to putt and then wander off the green chatting somewhat grinds my gears.

Or you could just take a minute to "smell the roses". I'm sure that most of us have lost mates early to heart attack/cancer/road traffic accident etc. who would just love to be out there on the golf course getting held up...

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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 23 Oct 2014, 12:55 pm

super_realist wrote:Plumb bobbing works for me

BlueCoverman wrote:
super_realist wrote:Plumb bobbing works for me

Me too...so much easier to see the correct line
Hmm. Seriously? How can it? How do you take account of differing parallax effects? Or the fact that where you're stood might have a different slope to where the hole is or how the slope varies across the whole putt??
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Post by incontinentia Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:01 pm

It's the Villegas spiderman routine for me, getting down to ground level really gives great feedback on the contours of the green.
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Post by BlueCoverman Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:05 pm

Yes MPB...I'm sure that SR can explain the technical side of it much more eloquently than me but I find that by plumb bobbing the putter at the hole I can see the amount the putt will swing much more clearly. And like SR I usually have done it whilst others are going through their own routines.

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Post by BlueCoverman Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:07 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Plumb bobbing works for me

BlueCoverman wrote:
super_realist wrote:Plumb bobbing works for me

Me too...so much easier to see the correct line
Hmm. Seriously? How can it? How do you take account of differing parallax effects? Or the fact that where you're stood might have a different slope to where the hole is or how the slope varies across the whole putt??

You make a good case against it Navy, but I guess its whatever works for you.

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Post by Bob_the_Job Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:09 pm

BlueCoverman wrote:
Bob_the_Job wrote:Agreed - I've no interest in rushing for the sake of it - but standing 100 yards out on a par 5 while 4 people take an age to putt and then wander off the green chatting somewhat grinds my gears.

Or you could just take a minute to "smell the roses". I'm sure that most of us have lost mates early to heart attack/cancer/road traffic accident etc. who would just love to be out there on the golf course getting held up...

Err yes.. but that's a kinda stupid argument. I know people with cancer who'd gladly rather be shoveling manure than have cancer, but that doesn't mean I'm going to suddenly get pleasure out of shoveling manure. And even then I'm sure those unfortunates you mentioned would love to be out on a golf course NOT getting held up unnecessarily even more. At the end of the day it's about having a bit of consideration for the people behind and forming good habits that don't hold them up. It's not about everyone else behind you on the course having to modify their attitude just because you feel like taking a stroll. If you want a stroll go to the park.
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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:10 pm

BlueCoverman wrote:You make a good case against it Navy, but I guess its whatever works for you.
Which I guess is, after all, the most important thing!
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Post by super_realist Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:15 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Plumb bobbing works for me

BlueCoverman wrote:
super_realist wrote:Plumb bobbing works for me

Me too...so much easier to see the correct line
Hmm. Seriously? How can it? How do you take account of differing parallax effects? Or the fact that where you're stood might have a different slope to where the hole is or how the slope varies across the whole putt??

Where I stand is completely irrelevant by and large, my feet have nothing to do with it, it's my eye that is vertical in line with the putter. I'm looking directly at the path from the ball to the hole. The free hanging putter, using my "sporting eye" is sufficient to INDICATE the break of the putt given on how my brain visualises the pace I hit it at.

It won't work for everyone, especially those without a dominant eye, or who try to do it with both eyes open or who aren't letting the putter hang freely.

I also plumb bob chips, because i want the ball to run out towards the hole and my chipping is my best asset.

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Post by BlueCoverman Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:24 pm

Bob_the_Job wrote:
BlueCoverman wrote:
Bob_the_Job wrote:Agreed - I've no interest in rushing for the sake of it - but standing 100 yards out on a par 5 while 4 people take an age to putt and then wander off the green chatting somewhat grinds my gears.

Or you could just take a minute to "smell the roses". I'm sure that most of us have lost mates early to heart attack/cancer/road traffic accident etc. who would just love to be out there on the golf course getting held up...

Err yes.. but that's a kinda stupid argument.  I know people with cancer who'd gladly rather be shoveling manure than have cancer, but that doesn't mean I'm going to suddenly get pleasure out of shoveling manure.  And even then I'm sure those unfortunates you mentioned would love to be out on a golf course NOT getting held up unnecessarily even more.  At the end of the day it's about having a bit of consideration for the people behind and forming good habits that don't hold them up.  It's not about everyone else behind you on the course having to modify their attitude just because you feel like taking a stroll.  If you want a stroll go to the park.

Yes I agree with you of course. The point I was trying to make (albeit rather badly) is that consideration is a two-way thing. Sometimes it is as equally frustrating to be hassled from the group behind, when you are also being held up by the group in front...

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Post by Bob_the_Job Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:26 pm

I then transfer my ire to the group in front Smile
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Post by McLaren Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:35 pm

plum bobbing is equivalent to homeopathy.
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Post by super_realist Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:39 pm

McLaren wrote:plum bobbing is equivalent to homeopathy.

Don't be absurd Mac, that's like saying cross hairs are irrelevant in a telescopic sight.

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Post by BlueCoverman Thu 23 Oct 2014, 1:56 pm

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Plumb bobbing works for me

BlueCoverman wrote:
super_realist wrote:Plumb bobbing works for me

Me too...so much easier to see the correct line
Hmm. Seriously? How can it? How do you take account of differing parallax effects? Or the fact that where you're stood might have a different slope to where the hole is or how the slope varies across the whole putt??

Where I stand is completely irrelevant by and large, my feet have nothing to do with it, it's my eye that is vertical in line with the putter. I'm looking directly at the path from the ball to the hole. The free hanging putter, using my "sporting eye" is sufficient to INDICATE the break of the putt given on how my brain visualises the pace I hit it at.

It won't work for everyone, especially those without a dominant eye, or who try to do it with both eyes open or who aren't letting the putter hang freely.

I also plumb bob chips, because i want the ball to run out towards the hole and my chipping is my best asset.

Ditto exactly what he said! Laugh

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Post by incontinentia Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:01 pm

I don't understand the resentment towards plumb-bobbers, if they want to dangle a shaft in front of their faces then leave them to it, they're not hurting anyone.
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Post by McLaren Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:12 pm

It is just annoying that super claims to be this rational chap who requires a reasonable amount of evidence before accepting a premise, but happily accepts the use of plum bobbing and psychology rubbish like bob rotella. Who is the real super?
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Post by super_realist Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:22 pm

Mac, plumb bobbing simply gives the user an easy way to visualise the borrow on a green. That's it.

As for psychology, well, if you haven't tried reading the books and putting it into practice then I'm not surprised you can pass it off as bunkum.

You do however, see the value in a practice swing. Do you practice waving your bus pass at the driver so you get it right?

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Post by McLaren Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:30 pm

Super

I actually pretty rarely bother with a practice swing.
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Post by BlueCoverman Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:32 pm

incontinentia wrote:It's the Villegas spiderman routine for me, getting down to ground level really gives great feedback on the contours of the green.

Its the getting back up is when the trouble starts... Laugh

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Post by BlueCoverman Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:34 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

I actually pretty rarely bother with a practice swing.

Really Mac?...don't you think it would benefit your game?

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Post by McLaren Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:36 pm

Does anyone's practice swing ever resemble how they actually swing when hitting the ball?
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Post by BlueCoverman Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:37 pm

Well yes...isn't that the general idea?

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Post by super_realist Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:42 pm

I gave up practice swings ages ago. No benefit to me at all. I also don't hesitate over the ball.
There is nothing more destructive than those people who stand over the ball motionless for 30 seconds, just builds tension. Pick your target, and hit it.

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Post by BlueCoverman Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:47 pm

Agreed but that is completely different to one quick practise swing in order to get a feel for the shot

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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 23 Oct 2014, 2:52 pm

super_realist wrote:[here I stand is completely irrelevant by and large, my feet have nothing to do with it, it's my eye that is vertical in line with the putter. I'm looking directly at the path from the ball to the hole. The free hanging putter, using my "sporting eye" is sufficient to INDICATE the break of the putt given on how my brain visualises the pace I hit it at.

It won't work for everyone, especially those without a dominant eye, or who try to do it with both eyes open or who aren't letting the putter hang freely.

I also plumb bob chips, because i want the ball to run out towards the hole and my chipping is my best asset.

But how? So you hang your putter plumb and in line with the hole. Then what are you looking for?

I've no issue with plumb bobbers by the way, just don't get it? I'd like to, it might help me
MustPuttBetter
MustPuttBetter

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Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 42
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