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England vs New Zealand 8th November

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England vs New Zealand 8th November - Page 2 Empty England vs New Zealand 8th November

Post by Rugby Fan Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:45 am

First topic message reminder :

Thought we might as well have a thread as we'll have the team announcements soon.

I see Myler is out of contention with a mild hamstring strain. Not serious enough to warrant a call-up for Cipriani or Burns, though. Attwood's wife is due to give birth any day, so that clouds the picture a little on his availability.

Hansen is apparently considering Carter and SBW for Twickenham, injury permitting.

England team to play New Zealand

M Brown (Harlequins); S Rokoduguni (Bath), B Barritt (Saracens), K Eastmond (Bath), J May (Gloucester) ; O Farrell (Saracens) , D Care (Harlequins); J Marler (Harlequins), D Hartley (Northampton), D Wilson (Bath), D Attwood (Bath), C Lawes (Northampton), T Wood (Northampton), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), B Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: R Webber (Bath), M Mullan (Wasps), K Brookes (Newcastle), G Kruis (Saracens), B Morgan (Gloucester), B Youngs (Leicester), G Ford (Bath), A Watson (Bath).

All Blacks (test caps in brackets)

15. Israel Dagg (45)
14. Ben Smith (35)
13. Conrad Smith (83)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (20)
11. Julian Savea (30)
10. Aaron Cruden (36)
9. Aaron Smith (36)
8. Kieran Read (70)
7. Richie McCaw (c) (134)
6. Jerome Kaino (54)
5. Sam Whitelock (60)
4. Brodie Retallick 34)
3. Owen Franks (65)
2. Dane Coles (24)
1. Wyatt Crockett (33)

Reserves:

16. Keven Mealamu (121)
17. Ben Franks (39)
18. Charlie Faumuina (24)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (5)
20. Liam Messam (37)
21. TJ Perenara (8)
22. Beauden Barrett (26)
23. Ryan Crotty (10)


Last edited by Rugby Fan on Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:01 am; edited 3 times in total

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Post by Taylorman Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:20 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
quinsforever wrote:Laugh

for an american you are very knowledgeable about english coverage of australian provincial tours Wink

ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost ghost

Wheres Bill Murray when you need him?

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Post by TobyBryant Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:32 pm

Cruden and SBW might br a good call. They had a good combination and cruden will be busting to get out and play one thing or another. If he does he will need to set the radar for the posts though. Shocker last week. 

We know what England will bring - flooding the breakdown, lots of delays at every chance. Attacking the fringes and lots of narrow defence.

If the kiwis can get outside them again then it'll be another romp, but if the Brits shut off the ball and it gets attritional then the usual cabbage patch factor penalty count will see England home in threes and line out drives.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:34 pm

Probably need Dan Ackroyd as well.

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Post by Geordie Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:35 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:My thoughts exactly Geordie.

A true Geordie, or just from the North East?

From North Shields mate (about 8 miles from Newcastle), so I qualify as a true Geordie under some theories but don't under others...

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Post by Taylorman Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:41 pm

Yes we've been hearing reports of England particularly being hit with injuries. 'Fitness' to play seemed to be an issue in June where a lot of comments were around that some were either overplayed or were recovering from recent injuries so thats not good. Looks similar here with Farrell.

Let alone Farrell...If Lawes, Tuilagi and Brown were either all out or not fit I wouldn't give England much chance of competing let alone winning. Key experience and key positions and that was a problem in the 31 May/ June series...

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Post by HammerofThunor Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:10 am

ebop wrote:You've heard of time zones right? And before you say Saturday, I get it. Scrap the lions, no problem, no one cares about the lions right? A bloated domestic competition that is forever encroaching on the international game is way more important.

Yeah, I know about time zones. Not really relevant though. Not sure if you're messing so I'll leave it there. As for domestic rugby encroaching on international rugby...English domestic rugby has been the same size since 2003. The international window was expanded in 2009. Several teams now play additional international games outside these windows (how many games do the All Blacks play in addition to the 12 IRB ones? 3?) Only one side is doing the encroaching as far as I'm concerned.

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Post by Hound of Harrow Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:00 am

A big game for Eastmond facing the same opponents straight after the criticism he took in the 3rd test last summer.

I'm not sure we'll see the best of him with Farrell at 10. That selection alone is clearly not going with 'form players'.

In the squad, Ford and Myler have been in better form. Outside the squad, Cipriani,  Burns and C. Hodgson have had much more game time than Farrell, and all have some seriously good games this season.

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Post by Hound of Harrow Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:24 am

Attwood should be ok to start according to Rowntree. Attwood became a dad at some point testerday.

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Post by Duty281 Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:15 am

Biggest irritant for England is the inability to get consistent selection in the run-up to 2015.

Anyway, I merely hope for the same as usual this autumn: three wins and a good performance versus New Zealand. Winning is not entirely out of the equation for the home side on Saturday, merely an improbability.

And can England please start the game from the first minute, not after the first quarter has elapsed? Doing the latter cost England victory against France this year, and against New Zealand last autumn.

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Post by Hound of Harrow Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:35 am

Duty281 wrote:Biggest irritant for England is the inability to get consistent selection in the run-up to 2015.

Anyway, I merely hope for the same as usual this autumn: three wins and a good performance versus New Zealand. Winning is not entirely out of the equation for the home side on Saturday, merely an improbability.

And can England please start the game from the first minute, not after the first quarter has elapsed? Doing the latter cost England victory against France this year, and against New Zealand last autumn.

+1    thumbsup

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Post by johnpartle Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:59 am

Wydnej wrote:Cleary who normally has the calling of the England team has the following :

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Wilson
4. Attwood (baby dependent)
5. Lawes
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. B. Vunipola
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Eastmond
13. Barritt
14. Rokoduguni
15. Brown

Major surprise in there for me is that May is preferred over Yarde...!

I don't see significant better options, but I'm not at all confident in that backline.  Farrell and Brown look a fair bit off their best form (Ford needs a few more games coming off the bench before you can throw him in to starting against a side like NZ, real shame he was injured for the summer tour and couldn't build up that experience). Roko is debuting and May's skittishness at international level makes me incredibly nervous.  I think the centres will actually go relatively well, probably Barritt's best attacking game for England was with him at 13 a few years back, which saw him distribute a lot of ball and our outside backs get more opportunities than they normally do, he should also help Eastmond smooth over his weakness of defensive positioning, allowing Eastmond to be more relaxed in attack; however I don't think we'll be effective enough without the midfield power that Tuilagi or Burrell can offer.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:07 am

From an outsider looking in May has never impressed me and I constantly thought he was your main weak link in the backline last season.
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Post by yappysnap Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:43 am

Good looking pack though, if they can compete with the AB's then we should be able to at least keep the score close.

Farrell is still the biggest worry, Brown was coming back to some good form in Europe but unless something amazing has happened in camp Faz could be well off the pace.

Really annoyed that Lancaster isn't trying any of the other 10 options for this one, especially as past experience shows that even if Faz goes terribly who ever is on the bench will only get a token 5 min cameo.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:20 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:From an outsider looking in May has never impressed me and I constantly thought he was your main weak link in the backline last season.

Totally agree on that, May hasn't looked like an Int winger in any of his 7 caps so far.

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Post by Cumbrian Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:24 am

From the things I've read Lancaster has considered trying to use Ford at fly half and Farrell at inside centre together for some time. Considering there are only two centres in the match 23, I assume that this is going to happen at some point on Saturday.
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Post by Cumbrian Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:26 am

It is quite exciting that Anthony Watson has been retained, can assume that we will be seeing him at some point, especially as he covers three positions.

The team now really writes itself though.
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Post by ChequeredJersey Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:39 am

Has anyone saying Brown's form isn't great watched him in more than one match this season? 'Cause that's Love sacks, Tigers match excepted
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Post by yappysnap Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:52 am

To be fair compared to just how good he was last season he isn't back there this time around, there's less threat from him ball in hand.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:57 am

I guess when a player has such a good season like Brown did last year then people will always judge them by that standard because they have shown how good they can be, consistency is the key I think.

If a player can be consistently good year in year out then that for me is way better than just one season of brilliance. Browm is consistently good
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Post by TobyBryant Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:17 am

Winning at home is easy, so expect a clean sweep for the home nations this weekend.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:19 am

TobyBryant wrote:Winning at home is easy, so expect a clean sweep for the home nations this weekend.

Yes, as the Yanks found out Doh
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Post by HQ matt Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:11 am

Still surprised ben foden wasnt even in the training squad.

Wood and robshaw the only flankers in the matchday 23? Billy V has played 6 for sarries and kruis has played in the back row too but it seems risky to me. Nice to have morgan to come on when the game breaks up bit though.

Brown has not been as consistent at beating the first man this season as last but as someone said he is a victim of his own high standards.

I also have some concerns about jonny may, would rather have wade in there but he is a dangerous runner and if england can put him in space he can do damage against any opposition.

I personally agree with farrell starting at 10 (provided he is fit). Ford will have his opportunities over the series, 10 is such a key position, its wise to ease players in to the role.

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Post by hugehandoff Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:49 am

Prediction time as we know the match day squad. For me England have no chance and will do well to keep it respectable. NZ as ever will not slip up and with England below strength they will struggle to keep up. I think the midfield will be a problem and this is not a dig at either Eastmond or Barritt but being realistic that this is the first time they will have played together? Defensively and offensively this will pose challenges. Plus the wingers are very inexperienced at this level. Against the very best you need your very best team on the paddock and then they need to play a blinder and hope the other side have an off day as they did 2 years ago. Corbs made a massive impact in the scrums and Manu did out wide in that win and I think we will miss those two. I see a comfortable NZ win. 27-15.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:52 am

Should be an interesting contrast to the last ABs series – then, we had a narrow defence with 3 flappers in the tackle. This time I’m sure we’ll play a narrow defence but only have 1 confirmed flapper. However playing a narrow defence against the ABs just increases the extent of the loss - unless we prevent them getting quick ball, which is unlikely.
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:57 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:My thoughts exactly Geordie.

A true Geordie, or just from the North East?


From North Shields mate (about 8 miles from Newcastle), so I qualify as a true Geordie under some theories but don't under others...

My family are all from the NE, between Hartlepool and Sunderland, dotted around the pit villages there. Majority now in Horden (Peterlee).

My mums definition of a Geordie, was from the docks south of the Tyne around Jarrow.

Not sure where I come from, being pit people they tended to be a little vertically challenged, nobody in my family gets within 6" of me ( the milkman was tall though)
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Post by SecretFly Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:01 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Not sure where I come from, being pit people they tended to be a little vertically challenged, nobody in my family gets within 6" of me ( the milkman was tall though)

The 'Who Do You think You Are?' people are almost certain you're from the Mines of Moria and yes, the son of a Mordor Milkman. That should be a good show when it's televised!

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:06 pm

Fly,

I am more probably from Gandalfs line, as I have been known to work a bit of magic when close to the try line and I sometimes feel I have lived as long.

I don't suit pointy hats though.
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Post by Wi11 Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:36 pm

I'm interested to see May get more chances. His hectic running looks bizarre but it is actually quite hard to defend against without getting pulled out of position. So even if he gets hauled down without making any ground, there may be a chance on the next phase if we can move it quickly.

That said, I suspect neither winger will do well - it just doesn't happen in Lancaster's teams, and I think the problem is the lack of attacking threat up the middle - it becomes too easy for sides to just string defenders across the pitch and close off the wings. That has been getting better, but with an off-form Farrell, recently injured Eastmond and Barritt involved, I expect the All Blacks to have little problem covering our wide backs.

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Post by Bathman_in_London Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:38 pm

Well I am expecting a loss by c.10 points, but I am looking forward to the game anyway. The centre combination is an interesting one, even with Barritt in there I worry about Eastmond coping with Englands narrow drift style defence, he really is better with a blitz style so he can get hold of the man before they get some steam up.

With my Bath hat on, its great to see 7 players in the squad (probably hasn't happened since the glory days), I hope that following the inevitable loss Roko and Eastmond aren't just discarded. Roko's positioning has come on leaps and bounds, but it will be a real test for him on Saturday.

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Post by cb Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:40 pm

I am perhaps more negative than positive about the match (hope I am proved wrong).  I would have preferred Kitchener over Kruis at lock, though if Attwood can play, Kruis does offer the option of covering the backrow as well.

Away from the forwards, I would be concerned about the level of form and fitness of Farrell.  Also though he brings many aspects to the party I think Barritt is more a return to the style of play the season before last when England was not able to score many tries. However with Burrell and Tuilagi out, maybe the options are more limited. Will Eastmond be the meat in the sandwich though?

On a postive notes, the wingers may be interesting (but not necessarily re-assuring), and I think Watson is a good player.

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Post by yappysnap Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:43 pm

Roko is one of the players I'm most excited about, if we can just get the ball to him often then he'll be fine.

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Post by bluestonevedder Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:46 pm

My main concern is if the centre partnership fails to contain the NZ boys like in the 3rd Summer Test, how will we sure up the defence? Fortunately we had Burrell on the bench over the summer who managed to stem the flow, but from the look of the match day 23 we haven't got another centre cover. 

I can only assume that if Eastmond's struggling, Farrell would move to 12 with Ford on at 10?

Would anyone else be worried by a Ford-Eastmond axis at 10 and 12? What happens if injury forces that move early on? 

On a positive note, I am really looking forward to seeing Attwood get a run out.

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Post by nathan Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:19 pm

Not directly related to this thread, but Cole is meant to be playing for Tigers this weekend.

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Post by HQ matt Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:29 pm

Glad to hear coles on the way back. Plenty of time to ease his way back before the six nations.

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Post by Bathman_in_London Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:30 pm

I reckon the 10-12-13 lineup will be quite fluid, so that Barritt and Farrell take on more defensive duties and then Eastmond steps in at 1st receiver as and when needed. I feel a bit sorry for Eastmond actually, even if he has a creative stormer, 1 missed tackle and there will be calls to drop him again.

I wonder how Mrs Attwood feels about her hubby legging it once the action is over?!

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:39 pm

I've already said Farrell worries me but I can see why the coaches want him.

They don't think he's unfit, and neither does he. They must know he's rusty but take the view he raises his game in an England shirt.

They want his loud mouth to organize the back line, his tackling prowess with Eastmond outside, and his bolshiness to let the All Blacks know they are in a game. They also want his goal kicking under pressure.

If he can show again the qualities of two years ago, then we'll be in with a shout.

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Post by cb Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:40 pm

It may be a twinkle in Lancaster's eye, but does anyone else have a dread of Farrell and Barritt at centres or even Farrell at inside centre except in dire emergency.

On the other hand perhaps Slade at inside centre would be interesting?

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Post by HQ matt Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:46 pm

Im not as concerned as some of you guys about injured players.
In the pack we have our first choice back row and first choice lineout forwards,
Lineout could well be key as nz have tended to kick a lot of ball so
they can apply pressure and then  attack from turnover ball. Hartely and lawes are first choice club and country.
plsyers missing from the front and second row may leave us short
Of a destructive scrum but i think the players coming in will hold steady.

so im not worried about the pack. The backs are more concerning but
care, farrell and brown are the most important members of the england
back line, we have had very little consistency in the other positions for ages.

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Post by Geordie Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:17 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:My thoughts exactly Geordie.

A true Geordie, or just from the North East?


From North Shields mate (about 8 miles from Newcastle), so I qualify as a true Geordie under some theories but don't under others...

My family are all from the NE, between Hartlepool and Sunderland, dotted around the pit villages there. Majority now in Horden (Peterlee).

My mums definition of a Geordie, was from the docks south of the Tyne around Jarrow.

Not sure where I come from, being pit people they tended to be a little vertically challenged, nobody in my family gets within 6" of me ( the milkman was tall though)

Used to play them alot at rugby. They were always just a bunch of horrible old men who used to like beating you up.

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Post by beshocked Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:17 pm

Rugby fan of course Farrell Jr is not going to say he's unfit even though he's been mentally and physically unfit for the last 6 months.

Farrell Jr hasn't been good enough for Saracens in the last 6 months let alone England.

The last time he won a match starting at 10 was the Quins semi final last season and he was poor that day too.

An in form Farrell is a very useful asset but he's quite clearly not in form.

There are two reasons why Farrell Jr has been picked: 1) Farrell Sr. 2) He's more experienced than Ford, it would be unfair to throw Ford in vs ABs for his first start.

Not a good decision but Lancaster doesn't have many options.

As for Barritt - I think he gets a lot of stick but he's been playing quite well this season and will add some much needed leadership in the centres. He's been captain once or twice this season for Saracens which is no surprise.

I expect Barritt to be scapegoated if things don't go to plan - personally I would have picked Ford if England want to use Barritt.

Farrell I expect will tackle well but it's the rest of his game that currently worries me.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:18 pm

That's my neck of the woods! Hartlepool though, bit more up market Wink

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Post by Geordie Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:24 pm

The pack will go fine. I actually look forward to seeing how the extra power and carying that Attwood offers changes the dynamics of the team from what Launchbury offers.

At least Vunipola (or Morgan) wont have to do all the carying themselves. Attwood is a big carrier...hopefully he can really take it to the AB's.

The backs are a mess.

Farrell should not start.
But Ford - Eastmond - Barritt does have a lightweight look to it...and thats something Lancaster simply wont consider.
Barritt would have to float depending on attack / defence etc and the two flankers would have to be guarding that 10 channel constantly.

Im happy to give May another go IF he can bring his form to the next level....and runs FORWARD.

I noticed Nowell is not in the 23 either...interesting.


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Post by Geordie Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:25 pm

SGt,

You from Horden? Or 'Artlepooooool....

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Post by Geordie Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:28 pm

beshocked wrote:Rugby fan of course Farrell Jr is not going to say he's unfit even though he's been mentally and physically unfit for the last 6 months.

Farrell Jr hasn't been good enough for Saracens in the last 6 months let alone England.

The last time he won a match starting at 10 was the Quins semi final last season and he was poor that day too.

An in form Farrell is a very useful asset but he's quite clearly not in form.

There are two reasons why Farrell Jr has been picked: 1) Farrell Sr. 2) He's more experienced than Ford, it would be unfair to throw Ford in vs ABs for his first start.

Not a good decision but Lancaster doesn't have many options.

As for Barritt - I think he gets a lot of stick but he's been playing quite well this season and will add some much needed leadership in the centres. He's been captain once or twice this season for Saracens which is no surprise.

I expect Barritt to be scapegoated if things don't go to plan - personally I would have picked Ford if England want to use Barritt.

Farrell I expect will tackle well but it's the rest of his game that currently worries me.

Thats his own fault to a large degree Beshocked.

Barritt has to be in there if Eastmod ad Ford make up the other 2 of the midfield.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:44 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:SGt,

You from Horden? Or 'Artlepooooool....

I'm from Horsham, Sussex.

My parents moved south in the early 50s, but Mum was from Blackhall Colliery and Dad from WEST Hartlepool as he always emphasised for obvious reasons if you come from the NE
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Post by Geordie Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:53 pm

West Hartlepool. Seems a age since they were in the top flgiht.

Horsham...supposed to be a good night out.

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Post by quinsforever Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:53 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:SGt,

You from Horden? Or 'Artlepooooool....

I'm from Horsham, Sussex.

My parents moved south in the early 50s, but Mum was from Blackhall Colliery and Dad from WEST Hartlepool as he always emphasised for obvious reasons if you come from the NE
my mother is from Hartlepool. I used to be up there twice a year to see her parents and sisters. Coldest i've ever been in my life is swimming off Seaton Carew in the middle of summer.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:00 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:West Hartlepool. Seems a age since they were in the top flgiht.

Horsham...supposed to be a good night out.

Very good beer, King and Barnes Horsham Ales, but a bit quiet for a "GOOD" night out. Always used to head down to Brighton or up to London.

Quinsforever, used to spend my summers hols in Seaton Carew and Crimdon Dean when I was a kid. Especially remember all the penny slots arcades in Seaton Carew, that would be 1d slots not 1p.
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Post by quinsforever Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:05 pm

well-past-it, i missed decimalisation by 6 months Smile

you must be really old Smile

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:20 pm

I can still remember farthings, silver thrupenny bits and half crowns.

How many on here know what a Guinea is? Not the actual coin, I am not that old ( phased out in early 1800s). 5 bob, shillings, florins, crowns.

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