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PGA Tour: Two Tournaments, Cultures and Continents Apart: Notes from the Ballwasher

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 05 Nov 2014, 6:40 pm

First topic message reminder :

Not much interest in last week's tournaments (or my blog although uncanny how Europeans performed, almost all in conformance to my Notes!) so let's make this brief!

1).Great opportunities for Europeans who are PGA Tour members this week at the WGC:HSBC Champions in China, especially Donaldson and Dubuisson.

Westwood, for instance, will be 25% at least on his way to The Barclays, plus 20% of the way in to his Tour season. Possibly screwed by one of the rain delays last week but par for the Malaysian course. American media seem to favour non-Americans to bring home the bacon; the pgatour.com hacks' "expert picks" choose 11 four-man teams a la their Fantasy Game and there are only 11 (out of 44 chances) American choices made. History would suggest they have a good point, especially given Dustin Johnson's absence.

2).But many European PGA Tour members will be in Mississippi celebrating the 9 million chickens "processed" by "Sanderson Farms" each and every week. Knox and Laird will be hoping to continue their good starts to the season. The CC of Jackson is an old course but a new Tour venue so horses for courses goes out the window. As usual I fancy a Southern boy for tournaments in the South: Kevin Kisner and John Peterson will win soon - chance for one of them this week?

3).Bernhard Langer duly took home his $1M bonus swag for winning the Schwab Cup annuity and completing the most rewarding, monetarily at least, season in US Senior Tours history, squeaking by Hale Irwin's total money won ten years ago.
A couple of Langer tid-bits which were mentioned on last week's telly coverage, and repeated in this week's GolfWorld:
~His greens-hit-in-regulation %age this year of 78.35 is the highest ever recorded, on either the PGA or Champions Tours.
~Is this apocryphal or just Bernhard being Bernhard? Langer "After being given a yardage by his caddie asked 'From the front of the sprinkler head or the back?'"!

4).I'll be interested in Cameron Smith's showing this week in Mississippi with the 21-y-o Aussie, of whom I know nothing, making his first US start after last week's fifth-place effort at the CIMB. Anyone know anything about him? Is he the new "Aussie Stud"??

5).And an update from the US Ryder Cup pantomime suggests that each member of the US Team at Gleneagles texted Fred Couples imploring that he put his name forward for the 2016 Captaincy. Not clear whether this story has any legs or whether it's just the Press advocating for their favourite media darling. Interesting nevertheless.
Meanwhile, on the European side of the ledger, hasn't Nick Faldo been quiet since his "Sergio was useless" comment and the Ted Bishop/Ian Poulter spat? Would not be surprised if CBS TV were looking for replacement options for their "lead analyst" position.

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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 2:40 pm

I would like to see a cut at the HSBC to make the tournament field a little more manageable,. If they cut down to 50, they could go with tee times all of the Tee #1.

With late sunrise and early sunsets in the Northern Hemisphere, they have to use split tees with a 78 player field.

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Post by robopz Fri 07 Nov 2014, 2:51 pm

I heard a stat on MD today about just how few times McDowell has had a 2nd round lead. I agree with what they said... it just "seems" like he's been in contention more than he has... and seems like a "tough out" when he does get there (especially in the Ryder Cup)... But maybe the FACT's don't bear out that he's all that tough in PGAT events... I pulled some statistics...

Out of 133 PGAT events, this is only the 2nd time GMac has had a 2nd round lead... the other was the the 2010 U.S. Open which he went on to win (but from 2nd place after the 3rd round). In fact GMac has been in the top-10 on the PGAT only 18 times after round 2. In those 18 he lost ground in 13 of them by the end.

But if he gets into round 3 while still in the top-10 he does somewhat better overall, but he's never won from the lead after round 3. He's had the 3rd round lead twice, cratering to T33 in the 2011 Players, and finishing T2 in the 2012 U.S. Open. Starting round 4's anywhere T10 or better, he's lost positions 9 times out of 17 chances. BUT he's been pretty solid in notching "back door" top-10's, by starting round 4 in the top-10 a total of 17 times... but finishing with a T10 or better a total of 26 times.

Bottom line: GMac's obviously playing great, has a 3 shot lead, and with the difficulty of playing out of the rough this week, he has a great chance. But that said, there's little in the above to give one a LOT of confidence he's gonna seal the deal and go on to win...

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Post by robopz Fri 07 Nov 2014, 2:53 pm

GPB wrote:I would like to see a cut at the HSBC to make the tournament field a little more manageable,.  If they cut down to 50, they could go with tee times all of the Tee #1.

With late sunrise and early sunsets in the Northern Hemisphere, they have to use split tees with a 78 player field.
I would always prefer all starters off #1 as well... but IMO the cost of instituting cuts at WGC's would be less of the worlds best playing in them... Not worth it just to have "comfortable" tee times.

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 07 Nov 2014, 3:01 pm

I think it was McDool's first 18-hole lead on the PGA Tour . . . . !

If Dubuisson has definitely withdrawn, that'll mean he starts the new year, and perhaps not before "Florida", with no FedEx Cup pts and only one start - at this rate Donaldson won't be much better off. Molinari even worse off: No points and no starts.
Not a good way to launch a Tour career, especially with the revised scheduling of the WGC-MatchPlay in May.

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Post by robopz Fri 07 Nov 2014, 3:13 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:I think it was McDool's first 18-hole lead on the PGA Tour . . . . !
LOL... but GMac has had 4 other 18-hole leads in official PGAT events before this week.

1st - 2006 New Orleans
1st - 2006 Open
T1 - 2008 Open
T1 - 2013 WGC Cadillac

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Post by robopz Fri 07 Nov 2014, 3:23 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:If Dubuisson has definitely withdrawn, that'll mean he starts the new year, and perhaps not before "Florida", with no FedEx Cup pts and only one start - at this rate Donaldson won't be much better off. Molinari even worse off: No points and no starts.
Not a good way to launch a Tour career, especially with the revised scheduling of the WGC-MatchPlay in May.
Agreed... With this new wrap around schedule.. it's just that much harder for the dual tour Euro's to get any kind of "head start" on the PGAT season unless they're willing to pass on some of the better ET events to come over for one or some of the first 3 PGAT events.   So while the Euro guys chances of getting on the PGAT via Special Temporary Membership have been enhanced... it's appears to have become harder than it was prior to the wrap-around to keep their card.

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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 3:25 pm

robopz wrote:
GPB wrote:I would like to see a cut at the HSBC to make the tournament field a little more manageable,.  If they cut down to 50, they could go with tee times all of the Tee #1.

With late sunrise and early sunsets in the Northern Hemisphere, they have to use split tees with a 78 player field.
I would always prefer all starters off #1 as well...  but IMO the cost of instituting cuts at WGC's would be less of the worlds best playing in them... Not worth it just to have "comfortable" tee times.

Give them their guaranteed money (just don't make it official) for "per diem" (a $50K guarantee). No FEX points though (not many points for a 50th or worse) and no OWGR points. Again, not many for a bottom feeder finish (if any).

A $50K guarantee ought to be enough to get to 50 players to appear. Especially one that are fighting for a Top 50 slot at year end (Ahem Sneds, Poulter)

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 07 Nov 2014, 3:40 pm

robo,
That McDool 18-hole lead comment was straight off the GC website - silly me!

GPB: Nah, $25K unofficial money is plenty! With four already having done a runner, we could be close to an unofficial cut before we're done!!

Major Champs Update:
Major (Champ) Toms still going nicely but the others are slipping, Duval & Janzen now with Daly in about 50th.
But all better than Immelman who's about 100th. Wish he'd find some form, his tee shots are something to behold when playing well.

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Post by robopz Fri 07 Nov 2014, 4:03 pm

GPB wrote:Give them their guaranteed money (just don't make it official) for "per diem" (a $50K guarantee).  No FEX points though  (not many points for a 50th or worse) and no OWGR points.  Again, not many for a bottom feeder finish (if any).

A $50K guarantee ought to be enough to get to 50 players to appear.  Especially one that are fighting for a Top 50 slot at year end (Ahem Sneds, Poulter)
Sounds good in theory, but WGC's weren't necessarily designed to attract bottom end top-50 players... the were designed with the incentives felt needed to attract the TOP of the top-50 players... a goal which (except for this one to some extent), seems to be realized quite successfully overall. Take away some of those guaranteed incentives, and IMO it starts costing you good players not playing them.

But not necessarily a wholesale loss of players (at least initially) because WGC's are so highly coveted by players it's not the guarantees at the bottom end that attracts them... it's the prestige, riches and points that can be earned at the top end. But as the riches diminish over time by even a slow drain of top players feeling less compelled to play after suffering early exits and walking away empty handed... how long before they lose their current prestige among the players and become just "glorified" CIMB's? And when that happens... forget it. (and it CAN happen... just like it's happened to some of the invitationals on the PGAT once they started suffering a "talent drain")

And the CIMB this year proves the guaranteed incentives are just not enough by themselves to attract a field without the prestige attached to it The CIMB has almost the same kinds of guarantees as a WGC, yet doesn't draw well among it's top, mid or even low level of invited players... otherwise the CIMB wouldn't have needed to go to #142 on the FedEx list to fill it's top 60 spots. The Hyundai TofC on the PGAT and to a larger extent the Volvo Match Play on the ET show us the same thing.

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Post by sirbenson Fri 07 Nov 2014, 5:06 pm

Go on Padraig Harrington!!! Get that win!

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Post by sirbenson Fri 07 Nov 2014, 5:07 pm

Patrick Reed needs to be fined and suspended. He has absolutely no defence, none at all.

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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 5:18 pm

the were designed with the incentives felt needed to attract the TOP of the top-50 players

Well, the fact is the 40% of the top 20 (Elite of the Elite) decided to not play this week.  

Why would the the elite world-class players be concerned about missing a cut?  If they are truly World Class Elite players, making a 50 out of 80 player cut should be one of the last things they are worried about.  

If they are 12+ shots off the lead after 36 holes, it is not very likely they are playing well and quite frankly, I bet Billy Horschel probably wishes he was on his way home right now.  He is 23 shots behind.

Of course, maybe these guys want to pad their consecutive cut streak.  (more importantly, another notch on the Career Cuts Made tally).

And once again, I think you are over-stating the prestige of a WGC win.  No one cares who won these tournaments from a couple years ago.

I bet there are not many people on this board who remember who won the Cadillac in 2010, nor could they figure it out.  But I bet many of them could remember that Mickelson, GMAC, Oosty, and Kaymer won the Majors especially if they thought about it for awhile.

2010 Cadillac Winner:

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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 5:28 pm

robopz wrote:
And the CIMB this year proves the guaranteed incentives are just not enough by themselves to attract a field without the prestige attached to it  The CIMB has almost the same kinds of guarantees as a WGC, yet doesn't draw well among it's top, mid or even low level of invited players... otherwise the CIMB wouldn't have needed to go to #142 on the FedEx list to fill it's top 60 spots.  The Hyundai TofC on the PGAT and to a larger extent the Volvo Match Play on the ET show us the same thing.


The CIMB Guarantees are about 1/4 of the guarantees of the HSBC. Boo Weekley earned $14,000 for his Solo 70th finish in Malaysia.  I can't imagine the trip was very profitable.   Probably not worth 36-48 hours of travel.

A named pro could make the same kind of profit in a corporate appearance.

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 07 Nov 2014, 5:35 pm

Got him!
I remember picking him for Goldwolf's 606 game!

Shotlink not having its finest hour in Mississippi - but come on Padraig!
He's playing Mayakoba also and these could be two BIG weeks for him if this form is not an illusion.

Duval and Janzen struggling and Immelman right on the cut-line, probably a goner.

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Post by McLaren Fri 07 Nov 2014, 5:36 pm

sirbenson wrote:Patrick Reed needs to be fined and suspended. He has absolutely no defence, none at all.  

I agree, assuming you are being serious. But I have nothing to offer about inappropriate behavior and how golf responds to it that hasn't been said many times on this board. He said something which is deeply harmful, but is it likely many in golf will care?
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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 5:40 pm

sirbenson wrote:Patrick Reed needs to be fined and suspended. He has absolutely no defence, none at all.  

He will be fined, but suspended? Sergio wasn't suspended for his fried Chicken comments.

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Post by sirbenson Fri 07 Nov 2014, 6:17 pm

I am being 100% serious Mac and hopefully the authorities will do the right thing...Yes GPB, I know, Sergio should have been suspended.

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Post by robopz Fri 07 Nov 2014, 6:44 pm

McLaren wrote:
sirbenson wrote:Patrick Reed needs to be fined and suspended. He has absolutely no defence, none at all.  

I agree, assuming you are being serious.  But I have nothing to offer about inappropriate behavior and how golf responds to it that hasn't been said many times on this board.  He said something which is deeply harmful, but is it likely many in golf will care?
Wow... just wow. Seriously?... some comment a guy makes to HIMSELF... not aimed at anyone other than himself... not expected to be heard by anybody else (even though such expectations are kinda stupid in this day and age)... rises to the level of suspension?

I honestly can't believe that we've come to the point of "politically correct" offense over something like this for ANYONE to believe a guy's career should impacted by a suspension over this... absolutely astonishing that its come to this... astonishing... !!!!

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Post by McLaren Fri 07 Nov 2014, 6:48 pm

GPB

Sergio should have been punished more heavily. Just because he escaped proper punishment that does not mean golfers in future should get away with homophobic or racist comments.  Not that we would know what golfers get suspended for, but that just adds to these issues.


Robo

I would agree with you had it just been a comment to himself. But do you think it is reasonable for him to have assumed that a mic would have picked up the comment? My opinion would be that golfers must know that almost everything they do on the course will be picked up, whether that be a rules violation or homophobic remarks. Whether we agree that should be the case or not, the fact is that it plays out in practice that most things are picked up these days.
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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 07 Nov 2014, 6:51 pm

Not to reopen old wounds, but ETW's behaviour at The Players at least as poor as Garcia's KFC unfunny.

But, to quote Warren Buffett on an entirely different subject, "There's been class warfare going on for the last 20 years, and my class has won."
Sure Tiger feels much the same towards Sergio.

Anyway, to pick up on the Sage of Omaha's observation, there's an estimate out from Oxfam that the 85 richest people in the World own as much as the other 3.5 billion put together. Amazing, and extraordinary the extents to which those 85 go to keep it that way.
And my lad works distantly for Murdoch!

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Post by McLaren Fri 07 Nov 2014, 6:53 pm

kwini

What did Tiger do at the players?
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Post by robopz Fri 07 Nov 2014, 7:06 pm

GPB... I think in past discussions I've clearly acknowledged that THIS particular WGC has not risen to the level of importance of the other 3... at least not yet.... or at least not with all the PGAT's top players... and for reason's we've discussed before (in the "world tour" discussions).

But to suggest in general they aren't considered prestigious events by the worlds top players just flys in the face of the comments we consistently here out of them. But that doesn't mean they're majors, nor does it mean they can play on crappy courses the players hate (Dove Mtn), or formats not suited to certain players (Phil Match Play) nor does it mean they are going to attract all the full time PGAT guys when they require such massive travel in the only time of the year many of them can take some extended time off, or scheduled when otherwise inconvenient (like the Saffer WGC that never got off the ground)

And those same issues might affect the WGC Cadillac this year a bit as well. Just like traveling to China to play one WGC might not make sense to some America based players... we might see some full time Euro's or other international players make the same determination about traveling over to play just one WGC instead of two... especially considering many would have to come back again a month later for the Masters.

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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 7:11 pm

McLaren wrote:GPB

Sergio should have been punished more heavily. Just because he escaped proper punishment that does not mean golfers in future should get away with homophobic or racist comments.  Not that we would know what golfers get suspended for, but that just adds to these issues.

I searched this thread on Fried-Chicken-Gate and not once was it suggested that Sergio should be suspended. A lot of people said Sergio was stupid, but no one suggested that he be suspended.

https://www.606v2.com/t44358-sergio-garcia-makes-racist-remark-when-asked-about-tiger

IMO, the outrage is directed at Reed, because he is Patrick Reed. The board didn't like his "SHHHHHHHHHH" at the Ryder Cup.

Patrick Reed may be c*cky and arrogant but that is no reason for a draconian punishment.

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Post by robopz Fri 07 Nov 2014, 7:23 pm

McLaren wrote:Robo

I would agree with you had it just been a comment to himself.  But do you think it is reasonable for him to have assumed that a mic would have picked up the comment?  My opinion would be that golfers must know that almost everything they do on the course will be picked up, whether that be a rules violation or homophobic remarks.  Whether we agree that should be the case or not, the fact is that it plays out in practice that most things are picked up these days.
Mac... I think in my ( ) I indicated it was DUMB not expecting comments would be heard.. but sheesh louise... does being dumb, or even homophobic for that matter (if he is) rise to the level of a draconian suspension? Now if comments like his would have been issued with even the least bit of malice, therefore INTENT to purposely "hurt" another person or group of people... OK... now maybe we're talking about something deserving of more, maybe a LOT more...

But do ANY of us really believe that's the case here? Come on man... seriously? Look... I'm ALL for a punishment/penance that fit's the crime... but I can't believe for a second that suspension fits the crime here.

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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 7:33 pm

Robo: IMO, its still a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg.

Are the WGCs prestigious because they attract the world best players?

Or is it the guarantee of $50,000 paychecks the reason why they attract the world best players?

IMO, The WGC's have artificial prestige with guaranteed money to the players.

At the beginning of the year, there are no forecasts on who might win the Cadillac, or the Match Play or the B-Stone. But many of the media portals make predictions on the majors. The only time golf fans pay any attention to WGC's is during the week of the event. Just like the LA Open or Zurich Classic.

Players don't make scouting trips to Akron and Miami a couple of weeks ahead of time. They show up on Tuesday, just like they do on any other tournament.

Yes, the Players like the WGCs, its has bigger purses, they have a 3 year exemption (rather than 2 year). And they get a $50K guarantee just for showing up.






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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 07 Nov 2014, 7:34 pm

As said earlier, suspension would be totally pointless unless it was for three months.
Plus, at least in my mind, unwarranted.
But he should/will be fined, just as so many others are fined, for his obscenities.
After that, who cares? Let's face it, he could have said an awful lot worse and probably not be deemed racist, homophobic, you name it.

Russell Knox needs to get his engine running, and Martin Laird needs to pull into the fast lane, otherwise both will be home for the weekend.

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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 7:39 pm

McLaren,

I just noticed that you started the Sergio-Fried Chicken topic.

I didn't see you advocate punishment for Sergio.  

Disclaimer:  I could have missed it, there are nearly 500 posts in that topic.

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Post by robopz Fri 07 Nov 2014, 7:56 pm

GPB wrote:Robo:  IMO, its still a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg.
Chicken or egg doesn't matter because it's not a matter of HOW WGC's became prestigious... just that they HAVE become so.  But without being embraced and revered victories by the worlds best players and accepted as prestigious by vast majority of the worlds media... they never would have been.  

Bottom line... throughout golf history different events have been considered prestigious than the ones we consider prestigious now... or even majors now. And right now on a worldwide basis,  it's the Majors first... the Players probably 2nd... followed by the WGC's (and to many the WGC's are probably considered more prestigious than the Players).  

So in the end... it doesn't matter a spit about WHY the players play them, or the size of the fields, or if they have cuts or not, or if some kind of points or money is guaranteed or not... only that they are what they are... prestigious events... and are held up by the world of golf as such.


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Post by McLaren Fri 07 Nov 2014, 7:56 pm

GPB

Did the sergio debate ever move on from whether or not he did anything wrong? If it had and someone had mentioned a suspension I see no reason to disagree with them.
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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 8:11 pm

McLaren wrote:GPB

Did the sergio debate ever move on from whether or not he did anything wrong?  If it had and someone had mentioned a suspension I see no reason to disagree with them.

I supplied the link and searched on "Suspension". No one suggested it, so I think it is hypocritical to suggest a suspension for Reed for something that he muttered to himself.

I am not reading through all 450+ posts in that topic to see how the discussion progressed. IMO, Sergio should have been fined for "Conduct Unbecoming" just like Reed will be fined for this faux-pas.

Players are fined all the time for their gaffes, and I am been very critical of Woods and his outbursts before. And his subsequent faux-pologies which are as sincere as a rabid dog that just bit you. But I never have suggested that he be suspended.

Players are professionals and they should act like professionals.

IMO, this board is reacting more to Patrick Reed, than what he actually said. I think if the person was a less polarizing player, that few if any people would be calling for a suspension. Like I said, no one suggested a suspension for Sergio after Fried-Chicken Gate.

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Post by McLaren Fri 07 Nov 2014, 8:16 pm

Not sure who reads Stephanie Wei's blog but here are her thoughts on the matter;

"No one cares that Reed, a public figure, used profanity, aka the f-bomb (at least I don’t). It’s the other f-word that has turned his tantrum into a controversy. Instead of berating himself using a gay slur, couldn’t he have replaced it with “idiot” or “moron” or numerous other alternatives that wouldn’t have been bigoted and offended a fair portion of the population. There are apologists who have said, “He was talking to himself, what’s the big deal?” Those people have completely missed the point and are probably bigots themselves. Reed’s outburst included a gay slur, a despicable word, which he uttered with such venom. (FYI, the f-word [not f*ck] is similar to using the n-word.)"

"Again, it seems like everyone is missing the point — you can have outbursts. It’s golf, it happens. It’s frustrating. You get caught in the heat of the moment. The problem in this case is Reed’s choice of words that he used to berate himself. It’s not about being “politically correct.” It’s an utterly hateful word that’s laced with bigotry. And that’s the problem here. But it just falls under another example of golf’s long history of exclusion and prejudice. The Tour is only making it worse by once again not disclosing the disciplinary action that Reed is facing"

http://www.weiunderpar.com/post/patrick-reed-apologizes-for-foul-language-gay-slur#sthash.48NWTyPV.dpuf
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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 8:19 pm

robopz wrote:So in the end... it doesn't matter a spit about WHY the players play them, or the size of the fields, or if they have cuts or not, or if some kind of points or money is guaranteed or not... only that they are what they are... prestigious events... and are held up by the world of golf as such.

IMO, they are not. I have already outlined several reasons why I think they are not.

Players make no special preparation to win these events.
No one gives a rats behind about these events, except the week of the event. There is no buzz about the Cadillac in the weeks leading up to the event.
When is the last time Morning Drive predicted winners of the B-Stone months ahead of the event?

Yes, a pro is going to say the PC things when he wins the event (Like Kuchar, and Scott). Would you expect them to say that this was most meaningless win of their career? That they are glad that have Goodyear Tires on their Ford Expedition that is financed by Barclays Bank?



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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 8:25 pm

I do agree the PGATour ought to publish its fines and punishments.

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 07 Nov 2014, 8:42 pm

Wie is a wie bit ott, don't you think?
Given the racist rhetoric that comes out with impunity of golf's darling Trump's mouth, Reed's unthinking outburst is comparatively trivial; time for the politically correct golf world to take on the big bullies, not just an ignorant redneck millionaire.

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Post by Davie Fri 07 Nov 2014, 8:55 pm

Too much is being made of this .. but the hook has been dangled by the usual suspects, and the unsuspecting are taking it deep

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Post by robopz Fri 07 Nov 2014, 9:24 pm

GPB... How many hundred or thousands of times does one need to repeat... WGC's are not regarded to be anywhere near as prestigious as majors. So to be clear, let me say it again: WGC's are not as prestigious as majors.

But how about the Players... Is THAT one prestigious? I guess by your definition probably not... I mean afterall... who makes special preparation to win that event?  Who comes in weeks early to scout TPC Sawgrass, and how much buzz is there about it in the weeks leading up to it?  NOT much if any more than a WGC is there... NO, I didn't think so...

But just like majors, and the Players there are things players WILL do for WGC's that they don't for other events. Like SHOW UP!!!!  

DISCLAIMER #1:  (for the 3,478th time)....the WGC HSBC has not yet reached the status of the other 3 WGC's with all the worlds players so everybody doesn't show up... at least not yet.

DISCLAIMER #2: No statements in the preceding post are intended to be construed as the author believing WGC's are as prestigious as majors.


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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 07 Nov 2014, 9:27 pm

GPB,
Are you still there??!!
CC of Jackson is a Dick Wilson original, apparently re-done by John Fought in a Donald Ross style.
Strange.
Like a band doing a cover version almost.

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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 10:40 pm

Robo:

There are three things that the Players has that makes it more prestigious than WGC's.

1. No Show up money.
2. And it has a Cut
3. And it has a full field, including ~120 players from the best group of golfers in the World. The Deepest and least diluted tournament on the calendar.*

(and its a great warmup for the Masters-Copyright Greg Norman) Very Happy

Sorry, Robo, you (re)opened this argument after I said there ought to be a cut down to the top 50 players to make the field more management.

I wasn't criticizing the WGC's until you got uppity that top ranked players would not show if there was a possibility that they might miss the cut. (I also said that they could have $50K for "per diem"). But the money ought not be official, nor should any FE points be earned nor OWGR points.

I did noticed that you dropped your CIMB vs HSBC analogy after I pointed out the guarantee for CIMB was about 25% of the HSBC guarantee.

On the ROBO prestige scale, is a WGC closer to a Major or closer to the LA Open?

On the GPB prestige scale where

1 = Hooters Tour Event
5 = Reg PGATour Event
10 = Major

WGC's are a 5.0 + delta (virtually no difference, and not worse)
Players = 7






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Post by GPB Fri 07 Nov 2014, 10:54 pm

Kwini, Well Dick Wilson did a good job copying Donald Ross Style.

Because it sure did resemble Ross when I played it back in the late 80's.

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Post by robopz Sat 08 Nov 2014, 12:07 am

GPB... Gee... I'm sorry about getting so uppity... but that's not the way I see it, I see it as just responding in kind.

The way i remember it... and the way it reads above... you suggested a cut to 50 for this WGC... I replied with a simple one line sentence partially agreeing with you but suggesting a cut could impact the quantity of top players who enter, thus I didn't feel a cut necessary.  You could have chosen to leave it at that... but you couldn't so you came back said a 50K unofficial money guarantee was enough, making special note of players fighting for top-50 spots... and I responded and it went from there...

Bottom line... I usually just ignore you about 90% of the time you go on and on and on an on about why WGC's suck... of which this was maybe chapter #2,877 since you got started on them years ago. I rarely if EVER initiate the topic... that's all on YOU.   But when I do respond, I do so despite believing from the mountain of evidence over the years... this is really a whole lot LESS about WGC's with you... than it is about Tiger freeking Woods and your ongoing mantra of why most of the things TW has accomplished in his career MUST be diminished at all costs.  IMO with you it's Tiger= lots of WGCs won... thus there must not be, there can not be anything "special" about them.

Well excuse me... but from time to time... I WILL chime in with my opinion that I think WGC's are special events and the players and media seem to support my opinion. And that's NOT because TW has won so many of them... but because most the time they feature CHALK fields of the best of the best world players.... and I appreciate the extra opportunities to see the best players in common fields (as long as there aren't too many of them). And it doesn't bother me in the least that these are more limited fields than majors, so there's even a better chance more of the chalk will be in contention to the end...

So going forward... here's a little tip.  If you don't want me to challenge you on WGC's then either A) don't keep posting ad nauseam criticisms of them.. or B) don't respond to me if I happen to offer rebuttal.

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Post by robopz Sat 08 Nov 2014, 12:20 am

GPB wrote:Kwini, Well Dick Wilson did a good job copying Donald Ross Style.  

Because it sure did resemble Ross when I played it back in the late 80's.
I didn't think I had an opportunity to play many Wilson courses... until I looked at his partial list on Wiki right now and realized I had played at least 4 of them, Dubsdred, Bay Hill, La Costa & Doral Blue. Enjoyed them all even though I pretty sure at least Doral had been significantly changed from the original by the time i ever got to it. But i also know Wilson was a big influence on Joe Lee, who designed a lot of courses i've played on. Unfortunately my two favorite Lee courses, the North and West at the Woodlands, have been totally redone in that they other than some of the routing remaining the same, they hardly resemble the Joe Lee originals....

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Post by GPB Sat 08 Nov 2014, 12:56 am

Robo: I don't care if you challenge me my opinions.

Its when you (and your crony on another blog) start doing it passively aggressively (Hennie-esque IMO) is when I start finding fault. Man up and debate the issue directly rather than Snarking and taking my comments out of context.

I like the debate, and you do it professionally when it is mano a mano.

But you never seem to acknowledge my points, I guess that is implicitly telling me that you agree with me

Two recent examples:

1. Your misguided CIMB / HSBC guaranteed show-up pay analogy

2. Players w/ Full Field & Cut (which is a consistent argument that I have used in my criticisms about WGCs)

In this thread, you have Your hyperbolized about the number WGC argument (Thousands?). Your lame attempt to compare the WGC's to the Players Championship was a desperate attempt at Strawman argument which I dismissed with a consistent position from the past.

Tiger Woods has little to nothing with my bias against the WGCs. A big part of TIGER is the GOAT argument is the amount of players is DEEPER than ever before. But the fact is that over 25% of his wins have been accomplished in short fields.

How can you count all those short field wins AND claim that he is great because of all the good players in the game?


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Post by robopz Sat 08 Nov 2014, 2:45 am

Some good news for the players on the PGA Tour purse front.

Estimated total PGA Tour purses for the 47 official 2015 events will break the $300 million barrier for the first time, up from $298 million in 2014, to an estimated $316.5 million in 2015. That's an $18.5 million increase or 6.55%... and using inflation averages for the last 5 years should equate to around 4.4% real growth.

That might not sound like much... but actually it's a BIG step in the right direction as CPI adjusted purses for the 10-year period of 2005-2014 were actually down about 1.6%. This was due primarily to slower growth rates of purses after the Tiger Bubble slowed, plus the loss from 48 events in 2005, down to 45 in 2014. In 2015 the event count will be back up to 47, just two shy of recent high points of 49 events in 2001 and 2002.

The year over year 2014-15 increase is primarily due to the shift of the Sanderson Farms later in the year, thus out of 2014 and into 2015 (4 million moved from 2014 to 2015 so 8 mil change), the addition of a new event (Barracuda Championship at $3.1 million) and an increase in the 3 WGC's to be played in the U.S. from 8.5 million each to $9.25 million, and increasing purses for majors. The other $5 million increase comes from significantly increased fall series purses... plus $100k here and $200k there added to some of the rest of the "regular' events on Tour.

Plus there is still room for potential growth of possibly up to $3 million for 2015 as the Masters & U.S. Open are still listed at $9 mil each, but there has been speculation they will go up to $10 million to match the PGA. Same with the Open which is currently estimated to be $9.2 million and it too may go to $10 million (+/- currency fluctuations)

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Post by robopz Sat 08 Nov 2014, 3:39 am

GPB... We go round and round on this, but we continually come back to the same thing...  IMO the whole issue with you and prestigious events is you seem to believe some spreadsheet counting numbers of players or depth or strength of fields is what makes events prestigious.  Granted... that's part of the equation, but history and reality show us that's not ALL the equation.  Take the following instances...

MAJORS - Based on player counts and depth of field, the Masters is clearly the weakest field of the majors with probably only 80-90 competitive players in any given year. Yet among most it's considered the most prestigious Major to win (at least on the American side of the pond, the Open probably most highly regarded on the other side of the pond). And the PGA Championship, even with it's 20 club pros is the BEST field in golf all year by most any measure... OWGR, sum of averages, you name it... yet the PGA is generally regarded as the LEAST prestigious of the 4 majors.

HISTORY - As recently as 2 or 3 decades ago...after the Majors, it was the shorter field invitationals along with maybe L.A. and the TPC that were considered the most prestigious events. Yet the invitationals were 70 to 100 short field events.  A decade before that the much shorter field Tournament of Champions was considered among the top-4 or 5 most prestigious after the majors, and then there was the World Series, another short field.  

STRENGTH - Speaking of ignoring things... YOU consistently ignore my evidence that WGC's are  a LOT stronger than you seem to give them credit for.  True they are not full field... but the fields they have are so strong it [mostly] overcomes the lack of depth.  Past data I've provided you on majors played since 2000 indicate how 85% of the 60 majors played in this century were won by players that likely would have been WGC eligible at the time of the playing of each major.  So I equate that to mean that sure... if WGC's had the same field criteria as majors... some other guy outside current WGC eligibility would win 1 out of 7 times...  or 9 out of the next 60.  But to that I say so what, because more "outliers" would probably win the Masters too if they'd throw out some old farts and non-competitive amateurs and then expand the field with 70 more current PGA or ET pros... but because they don't, doesn't make the Masters any less prestigious... so why should it make WGC's any less prestigious...

TODAY... regardless of what YOU think, the WGC's are on that list of prestigious... and just don't take my word for it... LOOK at the participation rates of players that are invited. I don't care WHY they participate any more than I care why they participated in other events in the past they considered prestigious. What's important is that the players DO show, and that's what makes them.  And look at not just the money, but the points they earn. Not just from the top-heavy OWGR... but if the PGAT doesn't consider them prestigious.. then why do they award 600 FE Points for Majors+Players, 550 for WGC's, then 500 for everything else?   They do it because THEY think WGC's are important or prestigious, or whatever word you want to use.

So it's not what events YOU think or what I think are important or prestigious.. its what THEY think.  And since the Players seem to be sold.. and since the media seems to be sold... and since the Tours seem to be sold... excuse me if I am too.

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Post by robopz Sat 08 Nov 2014, 3:43 pm

I'm rooting for GMac... but when Kaymer gets the bit in his teeth, not to mention considering his history at this event... it's hard to look past him to anybody else as the favorite.

A win for Kaymer would make him only the 6th player to have multiple WGC wins... others are Woods (18), Els (2), Ogilvy (3), Mickelson (2), Mahan (2)

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Post by kouchi Sat 08 Nov 2014, 11:36 pm

Darren Clarke! 2000 WGC-Matchplay+2001 WGC-NEC Invitational

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Post by kouchi Sat 08 Nov 2014, 11:46 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:
Lovely story that was just pointed out to me on the ET web-site about Ollie Wilson, subtitled "Robert Rock's claim for Teacher Of The Year":

http://www.europeantour.com/videoaudio/video/index.html

Story of the Year for me. Fantastic!!
Thx a lot for that,kwini. I ditto your remark. 'Hors catégorie' for a golf story.

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Post by robopz Sun 09 Nov 2014, 3:53 am

kouchi wrote:Darren Clarke! 2000 WGC-Matchplay+2001 WGC-NEC Invitational
Yeah... Posting that list was a major FAIL on my part... I left "little girl" with 2 WGC's off the list as well... oopsie...

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Post by robopz Sun 09 Nov 2014, 10:03 am

Awesome finish in China... Those last 4-5 holes, with so many possibilities for so many players right to the end was about as good as it gets. And Watson's hole out will almost certainly go down as the shot of the 2014-15 season for the PGAT. In fact the drama of the last 45 minutes to an hour of this one might end up being the best of the season (except without the pressure or aura of a major).

Glad I DVRd it, and stayed offine so I could watch the last hour before I knew the results.

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Post by McLaren Sun 09 Nov 2014, 10:24 am

If WGC's do not have the prestige that their field strength suggests they should, then what is going on?

In what sport do the worlds best players not totally relish the chance to play against each other?

Are players really not bothered about proving how good they are in some of the strongest fields in golf?


Missed the action in China, but I am sure Gerry will be a popular winner.
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