Aviva Premiership Round 7

First topic message reminder :

Sorry not an all singing, all dancing thread due to time constraints - but may add later. As we return to AP action after a 4 week break, which teams will thrive?

Friday 14th November 2014

Gloucester v Harlequins 19:45

Gloucester: Cook; Sharples, Meakes, Atkinson, Purdy; Twelvetrees (capt), Robson; Wood, Dawidiuk, Afoa; Palmer, Hudson; Savage, Kvesic, Moriarty.
Hibbard, Gibbons, Thomas, Stooke, Evans, Braley, A. Thomas, D. Thomas.

Harlequins: Chisholm; Walker, Hopper, Lowe, Lindsay-Hague; Evans, Dickson; Lambert, Ward, Sinckler; Matthews, Robson; Trayfoot, Wallace, Easter (capt).
Buchanan, Marfo, Collier, Twomey, Clifford, Burns, Swiel, Casson.




Northampton v Exeter 19:45

Northampton Saints: Foden; Elliott, Stephenson, Burrell, Collins; Myler, Dickson; M Waller, Haywood, Ma'afu; Manoa, Day; Clark, Butley, Dowson (capt).
McMillan, E Waller, Denman, Woolford, Harrison, Hodgson, Wilson, Waldouck.

Exeter Chiefs: Dollman; Nowell, Slade, Hill, Jess; Steenson, Chudley; Rimmer, Yeandle, Francis; Mumm (capt), Welch; White, Armand, Waldrom.
Cowan-Dickie, Moon, Low, Caldwell, Horstmann, Thomas, Whitten, McGuigan.


Saturday 15th November 2014

Sale v London Irish 12:00

Sale Sharks: Haley; Brady, Jennings, Tuitupou, Arscott; Cipriani, Cliff; Lewis-Roberts, Jones, Cobilas; Mills, Paterson; Braid (capt), Seymour, Beaumont.
Neild, Flynn, Harrison, Lund, Easter, Fowles, McLeod, Forsyth.

London Irish: Fenby; Lewington, Mulchrone, Griffin, Ojo; Noakes, Allinson; Court, Paice, Aulika; Skivington (capt), Cox; Low, Harraway, Guest.
Stevens, Hagan, Halavatau, Lyons, Curry, Steele, Dorrian, Short.


Bath v Newcastle 17:00

Bath: Arscott; Woodburn, Joseph, Devoto, Banahan; Henson, Young; Catt, Batty, Thomas; Hooper (capt), Day; Ewels, Sisi, Houston.
Dunn, Auterac, Palma-Newport, Garvey, Ellis, Northcote-Green, Cook, Lane.

Newcastle Falcons: Hammersley; Sinoti, Tiesi, Powell, Tuilagi; Socino, Tipuna; Vickers, McGuigan, S.Wilson; Green, Barrow; Robinson, Saull (capt), M.Wilson.
Rogers, Lawson, Tomaszczyk, MacLeod, Hogg, Blair, Clegg, Tait.


Sunday 16th November 2014

Leicester v Saracens 13:00

Leicester Tigers: Mathew Tait; Blaine Scully, Matt Smith, Anthony Allen, Miles Benjamin; Owen Williams, David Mele; Michele Rizzo, Harry Thacker, Dan Cole; Brad Thorn (c), Graham Kitchener; Jamie Gibson, Julian Salvi, Jordan Crane
Jake Farnworth Tom Bristow Fraser Balmain Sebastian De Chaves Paul Grant Sam Harrison Freddie Burns Tommy Bell

Saracens:15. Alex Goode; 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Marcelo Bosch, 12. Chris Wyles, 11. David Strettle; 10. Charlie Hodgson, 9. Richard Wigglesworth; 1. Richard Barrington, 2. Jamie George, 3. Juan Figallo, 4. Mouritz Botha, 5. Alistair Hargreaves ©, 6. Kelly Brown, 7. Jacques Burger, 8. Jackson Wray.
16. Brett Sharman, 17. Rhys Gill, 18. Petrus Du Plessis, 19. Jim Hamilton, 20. Will Fraser, 21. Ben Spencer, 22. Duncan Taylor, 23. Ben Ransom



Wasps v London Welsh 15:15

With all the Internationals, this Premiership weekend seemed to slip in through the back door. I don't really like these kinds of weekends because it distorts the Premiership clubs and makes for strange lineups. So, what did we learn? London Welsh are really, totally done (as if this was a debatable point before). Exe are pretty good. Wasps have potential. For the rest, we shall see.

One of my favourite weekends Quins win away while Sarries, Tigers and Saints all struggle! Ill happily take more of the same

Struggle? How can a relegation contender securing a draw with a title contender be struggling?

I wouldn't call you guys relegation contenders LT, you're probably better then London Welsh.

Yeah, you beat us at least

Its just a ploy before Leicester go on an unbeaten rampage and end up finalists...

Driver wrote:Disappointed we didn't take a LBP from Bath who by all accounts we weren't a 1000 miles behind.

Deano seems to think they where more streetwise at the scrum and that got the man in the middle on there side.

We missed a few kicks early on though , Need to pick Clegg at 10 for his goal kicking and move Socks into the 12 jersey.

I watched the first half and a bit of the 2nd. We were the better team for long periods but the scrum was our downfall (again). It's nothing to do with being streetwise when you're getting walked backwards.

It's happened too much this season tbh. Wilson is not ready and none of our LH's are cutting the mustard.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Driver wrote:Disappointed we didn't take a LBP from Bath who by all accounts we weren't a 1000 miles behind.

Deano seems to think they where more streetwise at the scrum and that got the man in the middle on there side.

We missed a few kicks early on though , Need to pick Clegg at 10 for his goal kicking and move Socks into the 12 jersey.

I watched the first half and a bit of the 2nd. We were the better team for long periods but the scrum was our downfall (again). It's nothing to do with being streetwise when you're getting walked backwards.

It's happened too much this season tbh. Wilson is not ready and none of our LH's are cutting the mustard.

Feel like I've heard that before...

Is it not feasible the losing side can have the better of parts of the game?

Yes but to be far Sgt it does seem to be one of your favourite comments - just saying

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't call you guys relegation contenders LT, you're probably better then London Welsh.

Well, if Leicester really want to see themselves as relegation contenders, they will have to fight their way past London Welsh first. And they won't give up their position at the bottom of the table without a struggle...............

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is it not feasible the losing side can have the better of parts of the game?

Sorry Sarge!

I actually thought you were a London Irish supporter... My bad, i'll get my coat.

Heaf wrote:Yes but to be far Sgt it does seem to be one of your favourite comments - just saying

It's happened a few times this season. Irish, Wasps & Bath spring to mind, we were the better side for large parts of the game but were let down by our scrum.

So you weren't the better team? You were better in some aspects?

No, we were the better team except for our scrum.

If you take in all facets of a game you're never going to be better in every aspect.

Unless you are playing London Welsh of course.

Fair comment Bathman lol

Not seen the Bath/Falcons game - but stats are interesting:

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/231977.html

One team ran further with the ball, made more clean breaks, and beat more defenders. The other had a 100% success rate at scrum time.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No, we were the better team except for our scrum.

If you take in all facets of a game you're never going to be better in every aspect.

But overall you were the worse team.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No, we were the better team except for our scrum.

If you take in all facets of a game you're never going to be better in every aspect.

But overall you were the worse team.

In the 50mins I seen....no.

LondonTiger wrote:Not seen the Bath/Falcons game - but stats are interesting:

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/231977.html

One team ran further with the ball, made more clean breaks, and beat more defenders. The other had a 100% success rate at scrum time.

Another case of stats not backing up the actual game. You can't view stats and sum up a game.

Our scrum was murdered in the 50mins I watched, but we had the better of the game. Had the better of the territory and played the better rugby. We had a try ruled out and missed shots at goal.

I can't comment after that as I didn't see the game after 50mins.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No, we were the better team except for our scrum.

If you take in all facets of a game you're never going to be better in every aspect.

But overall you were the worse team.

In the 50mins I seen....no.

I'm talking about overall.

I don't know, I didn't see the last 30mins.

You don't need to see the last 30 mins. Bath won so Bath were the better team overall. That is pretty much the definition of the better team.

HammerofThunor wrote:You don't need to see the last 30 mins. Bath won so Bath were the better team overall. That is pretty much the definition of the better team.

What a stupid statement on so many levels. It's clear you have very little understanding on how sport works.

I'm with HoT on this one. The aim of a rugby match is to score more points than opposition. The team that finds a way to do that is clearly the better team. The losing team may also have played well, and may have been 'better' in a particular facet of the game, but they cannot have been the better side overall, as they scored less points. It's the only objective way of measuring 'better'. Anything else is subjective and therefore open to opinion, which can vary greatly from one man to the next.

So the better side has never lost a game of rugby? That is basically what you're suggesting.

Does this theory work across all levels of sport?

As I said, it depends of you are applying and objective or subjective test to what is 'better'.

Objectively the team who scores the most points and wins the game has to be better, as that is the aim of the game.

Subjectively, you can argue all day long who was better.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Not seen the Bath/Falcons game - but stats are interesting:

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/231977.html

One team ran further with the ball, made more clean breaks, and beat more defenders. The other had a 100% success rate at scrum time.

Another case of stats not backing up the actual game. You can't view stats and sum up a game.

Our scrum was murdered in the 50mins I watched, but we had the better of the game. Had the better of the territory and played the better rugby. We had a try ruled out and missed shots at goal.

I can't comment after that as I didn't see the game after 50mins.

Having now watched the match:

1) My view is that Bath played better and were deserving winners
2) Scrums had minimal impact on the game as there were so few, though the last 3 points from Bath were from a dominant scrum.
3) Falcons were lucky to see only one player binned for cyncial play near the goal line.
4) Goal kicking is part of the game. Fail to select a decent kicker and you deserve no sympathy.
5) the non-awarded try is a red herring as Falcons notched one from an identical driving line-out straight after virtually (Only difference being they actually grounded the ball second time).
6) Love Joseph's show and go for his try.

I'm not suggesting the Bath game is one we should have won.

All I'm saying is we were the better side for large parts of the first 50mins (bar the scrum), I don't see why this winds people up so much.

Games to-and-fro, momentum changes hands etc etc.

Have you never came out of a game and thought "how the hell did we lose that?"

Again....I only watched the first 50mins or so.

If you think the scrum had minimal impact on the game, I'm bemused but you're entitled to your opinion.

Attacking scrum in Bath's 22, out LH goes down and Bath are awarded a penalty, minimal impact?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:All I'm saying is we were the better side for large parts of the first 50mins (bar the scrum), I don't see why this winds people up so much.

For me, first half was even, Bath better at some points, Falcons at other. Second half Bath controlled the game.

Whether you intended to or not - you certainly initially gave the impression that Falcons played better than Bath.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:All I'm saying is we were the better side for large parts of the first 50mins (bar the scrum), I don't see why this winds people up so much.

For me, first half was even, Bath better at some points, Falcons at other. Second half Bath controlled the game.

Whether you intended to or not - you certainly initially gave the impression that Falcons played better than Bath.

I said we were the better team for large parts of the first half (bar the scrum), I only caught a little of the 2nd. It's my opinion of what I saw, it doesn't matter what I think end of the day as we fell apart in the 2nd.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:You don't need to see the last 30 mins. Bath won so Bath were the better team overall. That is pretty much the definition of the better team.

What a stupid statement on so many levels. It's clear you have very little understanding on how sport works.

I'm pretty sure in sport there are defined ways on winning and these are used to determine the best team. That is the fundamental point of sport. Individual games don't tell you who's the 'best' in the subjective (and therefore meaningless) way. But it does tell you who the best team was in that game.

Barring refereeing foul-ups of course