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PGA Tour: All the Presidents (Cup) Men: Notes from the Ballwasher

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

1).Only exhibitions on this week's schedule so let's look back at an event that has also been charitably described as an exhibition - with the odds heavily weighted towards the organizer.
Ah yes, the Presidents Cup!
The USA comfortably beat the International Team at Muirfield Village in 2013, but the members of each Team have "enjoyed" contrasting fortunes since then.

2).Team USA only have 3 x 2014 PGA Tour wins between them, one (Zach Johnson) in a limited field Tournament of Champions, another (Kuchar) by holing a 72nd hole bunker shot and Hunter Mahan's back-from-oblivion Barclays win. What have you done for me lately Messrs Bradley, Dufner, Haas, Mickelson, Simpson (altho' he did have a nice 2013 win in Las Vegas), Snedeker, Spieth (but what a final round master class he produced last Sunday in Sydney), Stricker, Woods?
Wonder how the Gleneagles US Ryder Cuppers will fare? Good starts by Bubba and Spieth, that's for sure.

3).The Internationals haven't done much better but Day and Scott had good wins on two Tours, Kings Charl & Louis did the business in South Africa, while Matsuyama proved that a second trip to Muirfield Village, for the Memorial, was the charm. For him at least. Whilst the biggest surprise might have been Angel Cabrera's win at The Greenbrier. Steady regression though from the De's Jonge & Laet, Els, Grace and Sterne, while Leishman flattered only to deceive.
Sterne, incidentally, is tied bottom of the PGA Tour's web.com Tour graduate reshuffle and will struggle to get in to many Tour fields, plus has lost his Top 50 status. The early favourite among tourists to lose his PGA Tour card.

4).The leaders for each Team for 2015, in South Korea, are:
*USA:
Watson, Walker, Kirk, Furyk, Moore, Kuchar, ZJohnson, Spieth, Horschel, Simpson + 2 x Capatain's Choices. (Still not quite sure how these points are accumulated . . . . )

*International:
Scott, Day, Matsuyama, Schwartzel, Jaidee, Leishman, Senden, DeLaet, Oda, Oosthuizen + 2.

5).web.com Q-School Finals kick off next week and European Tour members are voting with their passports, American David Lipsky being the most notable exception. Rikard Karlberg will be there, mini-Tour veteran Seamus Power from Ireland and Stefan Jaeger too, but no other Europeans that I can spot. Lots of Aussies but the days of European Tour golfers coming over for Q-School seem to be over for now. Not surprisingly.


PS: Let's hope we never lose a Tour Golfer in the freakish circumstances that Cricket lost Phillip Hughes. But, if we do, I wonder if a colleague will provide quite the quality of eulogy delivered today by Michael Clarke? What a moving tribute. Wish we had a Cricket Bat emoticon.

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Post by McLaren Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:10 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:PS, meant to put a smiley on that last post.  :kiss:

GPB - I agree, Speith would have walked to victory this week if Nicklaus and watson circa 1977 had been transported to this moment in a worm hole.
Mac. I do wonder about you sometimes. You're saying Spieth would have walked it this week even vs. Nicklaus and Watson straight off their 'Duel in the Sun'?? Seriously?? Spieth may well have beaten them but I don't think you're quite with it - have a lie down. Watson and Nicklaus played on an Open course with all that means in terms of its setup. I don't think Isleworth is quite in the same class do you?

FFS, do you really think that was a serious proposition or a playful example to make a pretty mild and silly argument?


But anyway, just to open the oh so tempting can of worms that is now sitting out there.  Given how much better the modern golfer is compared to the duffers of old, I reckon time warped versions of  Jack 77 and Tom 77 would have struggled to beat tiger this week never mind the mighty Spieth.
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Post by super_realist Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:14 pm

You really don't think someone like Nicklaus or Watson could have beaten par on that course?

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:15 pm

Mac,
I do wonder about you sometimes . . . . . .

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Post by McLaren Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:18 pm

super_realist wrote:You really don't think someone like Nicklaus or Watson could have beaten par on that course?

Is it really impossible to post with a slight hint of sarcasm around here?
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Post by McLaren Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:21 pm

kwini

Can you think of a better debate in the slow season than golfers of old and how well they would be able to compete in the modern game?

As a starting proposition I will put it out there that Jack would have way less than 18 majors. (ironically due to better fields these days. Who knew that full fields were the way to go?)
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Post by Shotrock Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:32 pm

Mac - Interesting thought. Certainly the Open Championship fields that Jack competed in were nothing like they are today. Still, a winner's a winner ... and while Jack (or Tiger or Rory or Sir Nick) could do nothing about the competition, the sledding might have been easier.

So, Tiger's new swing coach does not play much golf. Something he has in common with his #1 student!

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Post by lorus59 Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:36 pm

I think you have to remember Tom Watson almost won the Open at 59 years old against the modern players. What would he have done at 35?

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Post by incontinentia Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:43 pm

I think Jack would still have the same amount of Majors if he competed today. He's got the mental chops to win big in any era.
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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:43 pm

Mac,
I actually couldn't care less.
Golf architects of old are by and large better than those of today, why not actual golfers? Pointless argument anyway.

As far as the greats of all time, I measure them by Majors - the pinnacles of everyone's career.
Nicklaus will be #1 until Woods overtakes him. In my book anyway.



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Post by super_realist Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:57 pm

I'd disagree Architects of old are better than those of today. I'd say they are suited to the times in which they design.

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Post by super_realist Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:02 pm

Isn't that trophy won by Spieth the ugliest trophy in sport? Typical of something you'd expect from a man who lacks as much style as 9C does.

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Post by incontinentia Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:12 pm

Did Woods really sound like Clint Eastwood after he vomited?
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Post by pedro Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:14 pm

super_realist wrote:Isn't that trophy won by Spieth the ugliest trophy in sport? Typical of something you'd expect from a man who lacks as much style as 9C does.
Could be decor in a cheap Chinese restaurant.

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:51 pm

Lots of speculation about the Woods schedule for 2015. It seems the Middle East is definitely off his calendar, so where will he be getting his "reps"? San Diego for sure and increasing speculation that he'll add another West Coast event, possibly Phoenix.

But Rickie Fowler is reportedly opening his season in Abu Dhabi.

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Post by navyblueshorts Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:22 pm

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:PS, meant to put a smiley on that last post.  kiss

GPB - I agree, Speith would have walked to victory this week if Nicklaus and watson circa 1977 had been transported to this moment in a worm hole.
Mac. I do wonder about you sometimes. You're saying Spieth would have walked it this week even vs. Nicklaus and Watson straight off their 'Duel in the Sun'?? Seriously?? Spieth may well have beaten them but I don't think you're quite with it - have a lie down. Watson and Nicklaus played on an Open course with all that means in terms of its setup. I don't think Isleworth is quite in the same class do you?

FFS, do you really think that was a serious proposition or a playful example to make a pretty mild and silly argument?


But anyway, just to open the oh so tempting can of worms that is now sitting out there.  Given how much better the modern golfer is compared to the duffers of old, I reckon time warped versions of  Jack 77 and Tom 77 would have struggled to beat tiger this week never mind the mighty Spieth.
picard If your earlier statement was meant to be "playful", I think you need to do some proper proofreading before posting. There was nothing there to give the impression it was playful. I therefore took it at face value.
Your later assertion (above) re. the Nicklaus and Watson of '77 is just plain silly. Woods stunk his event out from a golfing perspective, Nicklaus and Watson annihilated the field at the Open in '77 - why don't you go and have a look at who was playing? You're talking nonsense about two of the acknowledged greatest players in the game, at their peak, not being able to compete with even the chip-duffing hacker who propped the field up this week at Isleworth.
Try not to let your bias re. all things Woods get in the way of the realities.

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:You really don't think someone like Nicklaus or Watson could have beaten par on that course?

Is it really impossible to post with a slight hint of sarcasm around here?
I'd stay away from sarcasm if I were you; something that's very dependent on vocal intonation and body language - not an easy thing to get right on an internet discussion forum. If that's what's intended, you need to work on it somewhat. Try throwing in a suitable emoticon. Or brush up on your vocab.
Think nothing of it.
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Post by robopz Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:37 pm

super_realist wrote:Careful lads, keep the safety catch on,  don't want any friendly fire situations here.
LOL... I realize you might be talking to a bunch of us here... but as for GPB and myself... don't worry about it.  We've been at it for years and apparently if we didn't enjoy poking each other's eyes out with sharp sticks we would have given it up by now... Very Happy

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Post by super_realist Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:59 pm

Was more the Blue on Blue American Friendly Fire of taking out the allies you guys are famous for I was concerned about. Run

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Post by robopz Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:26 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Lots of speculation about the Woods schedule for 2015. It seems the Middle East is definitely off his calendar, so where will he be getting his "reps"? San Diego for sure and increasing speculation that he'll add another West Coast event, possibly Phoenix.

But Rickie Fowler is reportedly opening his season in Abu Dhabi.
If the Hero Indian Open weren't the week before the Honda and the travel involved... I'd have suspected that a likely candidate.  It's not that it would be 3 weeks in a row... but it would be 3 weeks and some disruptive travel.

Agree that Phoenix might be the most likely, as I'd think a start there to work into Torrey Pines would make sense. Only thing left for TW to do with his career is chase history, and that means winning anywhere he can to pass Snead. Torrey is obviously right in his wheelhouse, and I'd think a tune-up going into there makes a lot of sense. And if I thought there was any shred of "vindictiveness" in Camp Tiger... I would further favor Phoenix as it plays opposite Dubai and TW might think he could steal a little bit of Rory's thunder "and stick it to those rat-bast**ds who wouldn't give him no sugar" by playing that week.  That is IF Tiger were the vindictive type of course... :-)  

But I wouldn't entirely discount AT&T Pebble or L.A. either.  I don't think he's as adverse to the Pro-Am format as people think, especially in one where he can hand pick his partner. Biggest thing against Pebble is it would conflict with the 2nd week of the Skiing World Championships... of which he might have an interest (and he's already missing the first week by playing Torrey).  

And I'm not so sure the Riv would be as dis-favorable to his style of game these days as it might have been a decade ago. And if he's the least bit image conscious, he might feel paying a visit to L.A. after having skipped out with the WC might have some benefits.

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Post by robopz Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:49 pm

super_realist wrote:Isn't that trophy won by Spieth the ugliest trophy in sport? Typical of something you'd expect from a man who lacks as much style as 9C does.
If the final choice for the World Challenge trophy was between that "whatever" or an iridescent rhinestone mosaic portrait of Tiger on a field of black crushed velvet... then I think the current trophy is a most excellent selection.  Otherwise something half that size maybe out of cut crystal would could have been kinda classy.  

But the funniest part was Jordan running around between post round interviews lugging that monstrosity himself.   Dude... come on... it's not a Claret Jug (which you DON'T want to let out of your hands...:-) and nobody's gonna try to steal it from you, trust me on that.  Besides, they hire people to schlep those things around for you so you don't have to.  pfffft... Kids... takes a while for 'em to figure stuff out....

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:14 pm

robo,
That probably rules Pebble out then. Would almost think it could eliminate San Diego also, wouldn't be the first time after all, and he hasn't "committed" yet.

He's been vocal about the extent of his commitments later in the year - his "two overseas trips" presumably includes South Korea, though some might suggest that's wishful thinking.

Perhaps he could open at Honda . . . . . and that would give him a clear shot at supporting Lindsey.

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Post by GPB Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:33 pm

robopz wrote:If the Hero Indian Open weren't the week before the Honda and the travel involved... I'd have suspected that a likely candidate.  It's not that it would be 3 weeks in a row... but it would be 3 weeks and some disruptive travel. 

His qualification to the Cadillac is FAR from certain.  Based on last years OWGR standings, he is going to need at least 18 points before Honda and 23 points the Monday after Honda.

That is equivalent to third place at Torrey and despite the spin coming from him.

Three tournaments in a row?  Could you have possibly meant Puerto Rico?   Shocked

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Post by GPB Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:34 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:
Perhaps he could open at Honda . . . . . and that would give him a clear shot at supporting Lindsey.

Unless he finishes 3rd or better at Honda....that would mean No Cadillac.

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Post by GPB Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:38 pm

I wonder how close Rory was to getting Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year?

For those across the pond, Madison Bumgarner of the San Francisco Giants got the SI SotY  based on his pitching performance in the World Series.

Nike's marketing machine probably needs a tuneup.

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:46 pm

Little doubt that Woods would have won it with a similar record to Rors. (Tho' Bumgarner was spectacular.)

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Post by robopz Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:02 pm

Kwini... man... I haven't a clue what TW's gonna do, but i do think Lindsey's World Championships in Vail are likely to play into it (anticipating she remains healthy of course).

And GPB is correct in pointing out his situation for Doral... TW's gotta get some points to be eligible for the WGC, because not being able to play that really screws with his Masters prep. So it seems to me he needs at the very least one, if not two or three events, even before Honda to get those points.... and I'd have to think he'd view Torrey as his best chance to earn points, and he'd want to have some rounds in prior to getting there to make sure he's ready.

With all that in mind... my guess is:

He plays Phoenix and SD. SD conflicts with Vail, but he could use one of his "get out of Pro-Am free" cards and have only a 4 day commitment there and still make most of her events.

Then if he's still short on points after Torrey... he can add L.A. as a stop gap... and he will play Honda.


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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:09 pm

Just had a butcher's at the schedule and he could play TP and only miss the Downhill, provided he escaped Pro-Am duties; sure Lindsey would love to have him at her Beaver Creek but perhaps she'll give him one free pass?

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Post by GPB Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:19 pm

robopz wrote:He plays Phoenix and SD. SD conflicts with Vail, but he could use one of his "get out of Pro-Am free" cards and have only a 4 day commitment there and still make most of her events. 

I thought those "Get out of Pro-Am free" cards are only available to FEDEX Top 30 golfers.

Its not like he plays a lot of PGATournaments with ProAms.

What is it?  Five or Six per year with a normal schedule?  San Diego, Bay Hill, Memorial, Washington, plus the playoff events?

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Post by super_realist Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:44 pm

robopz wrote:
super_realist wrote:Isn't that trophy won by Spieth the ugliest trophy in sport? Typical of something you'd expect from a man who lacks as much style as 9C does.
If the final choice for the World Challenge trophy was between that "whatever" or an iridescent rhinestone mosaic portrait of Tiger on a field of black crushed velvet... then I think the current trophy is a most excellent selection.  Otherwise something half that size maybe out of cut crystal would could have been kinda classy.  

But the funniest part was Jordan running around between post round interviews lugging that monstrosity himself.   Dude... come on... it's not a Claret Jug (which you DON'T want to let out of your hands...:-) and nobody's gonna try to steal it from you, trust me on that.  Besides, they hire people to schlep those things around for you so you don't have to.  pfffft... Kids... takes a while for 'em to figure stuff out....

If ever there was an opportunity for someone to "accidently" drop such a ghastly self indulgent trophy then Jordan had it.
I'd take the cheque for winning, but think I wouldn't just leave the trophy where it was. Looks like it was stolen out of someones Grandparents house.

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Post by GPB Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:04 pm

I thought I saw one of those trophies in a brothel.

Not that I frequent brothels or anything.

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Post by robopz Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:05 pm

GPB wrote:
I thought those "Get out of Pro-Am free" cards are only available to FEDEX Top 30 golfers.

Its not like he plays a lot of PGATournaments with ProAms.

What is it?  Five or Six per year with a normal schedule?  San Diego, Bay Hill, Memorial, Washington, plus the playoff events?

Actually the "Get out of Pro-Am free" cards are available to any player with the acceptance by the Sponsor and the Tour under this language in the policy: The tournament host organization, subject to mutual agreement of the player, may shift up to five players from the pro-am into an alternative sponsor function, subject to the review and approval of the PGA TOUR. The tournament host organization must submit the names of the players to be shifted from the pro-am and the list of alternative sponsor functions no less than 30 days in advance of the tournament.  

The difference for the top-30 from the prior year's Fed list is that they can request and WILL be granted up to two passes a year as long as they agree to the alternate sponsor function and no more than 3 players in that category are requesting such a waiver in any given week. But a non top-30 player is not guaranteed the sponsor will honor the players request. (but in practice they usually get them, as most sponsors would  prefer to use the player in another Sponsor function as opposed to using him in a pro-am.)

And if TW were to play a full schedule not interrupted by injury... my guess is he would be playing 11-13 pro-ams (based on his 2012 schedule)

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Post by GPB Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:42 pm

robopz wrote:And if TW were to play a full schedule not interrupted by injury... my guess is he would be playing 11-13 pro-ams (based on his 2012 schedule)

11-13 pro-ams

that would mean he plays 19-21 events per year on the PGAT.   Rolling Eyes  

4 Majors, 3 WGCs and 1 Players have no pro-ams

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:34 pm

Ah, that Padraig!
Golfchannel.com quotes him as saying he's going to spend his winter practicing intensely, taking 2,000 swings a day for 50 days.
"I look forward to seeing if I can do it," he said.

Question is, what swing will he be grooving?

If he's not careful he'll spend the time refining his errors, not good for the muscle memory bank.

Perhaps he'd be better taking a month or so off.

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Post by super_realist Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:41 am

Trouble with Harrington Kwini is he doesn't have a brain to attach any memory to.

I honestly think players might do better if they just went back to basics. All the best players didn't get to where they are without their natural talent, why try and make so everything mechanical and technical?

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Post by McLaren Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:29 am

Majestic

Spoiler:
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Post by super_realist Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:39 am

If I won that trophy I'd smash it to pieces, it is repulsive. Look at the map on the globe too, not even accurate

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Post by McLaren Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:53 am

Super, I doubt anyone intended you to navigate with the damn thing. But yes, it is ghastly beyond belief.


I find myself in the rare position of agreeing with you when it comes to paddy. He makes McGinley look like a genius.
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Post by robopz Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:14 am

GPB wrote:
robopz wrote:And if TW were to play a full schedule not interrupted by injury... my guess is he would be playing 11-13 pro-ams (based on his 2012 schedule)

11-13 pro-ams

that would mean he plays 19-21 events per year on the PGAT.   Rolling Eyes   

4 Majors, 3 WGCs and 1 Players have no pro-ams
That's correct, and if he's healthy for the full year I believe 19-21 PGAT events is exactly what he'd like to play... Reason: He was healthy for the full year in 2012 and he played 21 PGAT events... and in 2013 he was "almost" healthy, missing only his planned Greenbrier and the AT&T National (elbow), and he played 17.  With those two, he would have been at 19.  Assuming 2 before the Honda I think he'd prefer to play 19 for this year... only ones included other than the "locks" would be the Match Play in May instead of the Wells Fargo, and the Greenbrier between the Opens...


Last edited by robopz on Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:40 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by incontinentia Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:16 am

Wow, Harrington must have been pretty lucky to have done so well with such a lack of intelligence Rolling Eyes

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Post by super_realist Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:37 am

Inco, I'm sure he's not stupid, he just comes over as one with his simpleton accent and mannerisms.
Certainly brighter than 9C.

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Post by pedro Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:49 am

Lloyd Christmas. Google it.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:01 pm

Very good pedro, and does that make Ronan Harrington's Harry Dunne?

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Post by incontinentia Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:19 pm

pedro wrote:Lloyd Christmas. Google it.
I googled it, are you saying Harrington is an evil clown?
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Post by navyblueshorts Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:22 pm

McLaren wrote:Majestic

Spoiler:
Hell's bells! That's seriously awful. 9C must have some sort of serious ego to commission a trophy like that. Horrendous! Do everyone a favour Jordan, tell them it was lost in transit or 'unfortunately' destroyed somehow.
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Post by BlueCoverman Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:46 pm

I suggest he wraps it up in that towel that Tiger chucked up in... vomit

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Post by super_realist Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:09 pm

Seeing as Spieth is a bible thumper, probably good guess he's also a gun owner, would be good to let loose on that trophy with some sort of arsenal.

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Post by Davie Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:12 pm

He may be religious but I don't recall every hear him "bible bashing" like some of the others - if he keeps it to himself why mention it?

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Post by super_realist Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:17 pm

I was simply saying that because he's a bible basher (catch all term for religious) then he's probably also got a gun, given that the religious southerners are often gun owners too.

I know he's religious, I don't necessarily know he's a gun owner, but in America, the latter is more likely if you are also the former.

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Post by BlueCoverman Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:08 pm

super_realist wrote:Seeing as Spieth is a bible thumper, probably good guess he's also a gun owner, would be good to let loose on that trophy with some sort of arsenal.

No point, he'd only lose 3-2! Laugh

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Post by Davie Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:13 pm

Someone shoot BCM please :P

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Post by pedro Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:02 pm

BlueCoverman wrote:I suggest he wraps it up in that towel that Tiger chucked up in... vomit
If winning $1M and 46 points means I'd have to endure that sort of trophy, so be it.
I wonder if Rory's tournament will have an afro as trophy? Headscratch

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