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PGA Tour: Twelve Days of Christmas: Notes from the Ballwasher

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 17 Dec 2014, 4:52 pm

With the time of sunset, here at least, now becoming later by the day there is northern hemisphere optimism that one of the most dismal facets of winter is at least improving, (even if sunrise is still also creeping later for another week or two).

And the Twelve Days of Christmas will be starting soon so here are some thoughts as to what else is going on apart from:

1).A partridge in a pear tree? Or the number of Tour wins each for Fowler and Spieth. Extend it to stroke play Tour wins and include Day and Poulter too. Wouldn't bet against at least three of those four (sorry Poults) securing win number two in 2015, but we'd've thought that last year also.

2).Two turtle doves? Or the number of times Tiger Woods completed 72 holes in a Tour event in 2014. Surely we can expect more in 2015, but how much more?

3).Three French hens? Or the number of notable golfing trees removed from the landscape this year.
~The Eisenhower Tree on #17 at Augusta.
~The tree overhanging the 6th tee at TPC.
~And last week's storm brought down one of the cypress trees guarding Pebble Beach's 18th fairway.

4).Four calling birds? Or Augusta National, Chambers Bay, St.Andrews, Whistling Straits, major venues all in 2015. Very interested in seeing Chambers Bay - don't know anything about it. Not sure I much care for Majors being played at courses that haven't been tried and tested by Father Time or the Pros, but more of the same due soon when the US Open rolls in to Erin Hills.

5).Five golden rings? Well, not all golden exactly, but we should know fairly soon if the Olympic golf course will be ready in time for the five Olympic rings to be circling around it in Brazil. What a farce it will be if the course is not suitable, or in suitable condition, for Gold Medal competition.

6).Six geese-a-laying? Or the six strokes by which Jordan Spieth won the Aussie Open. Not sure whether the appropriate yardstick for this was a 6-stroke win over luminaries such as Scott and McIlroy, or that his closest pursuer was Rod Pampling. Remember him?

7).Seven swans-a-swimming? Or the number of strokes Brad Fritsch won by at web.com Q-School. Good for him, very unlucky to have lost his PGA Tour card each of the past two years having had to withdraw from several events due to back problems. The perils of journeymen playing while nursing injuries.

8).Eight maids-a-milking? Or just eight months (more like seven full months really) for Tour Pros to earn their cards for 2015/2016. There are two more events this season than last, but so far no-one has accrued sufficient points to qualify to join otherwise exempt players. Lots of speculation that the West Coast Swing will be weaker this year as players take a break, but the other side of the coin is "notable" pros adding early events to their schedule in the hope of achieving some sort of comfort level asap. Messrs Donald and Poulter may fall in to that category.

9).Nine ladies dancing? Or nine plus three ladies dancing with the Solheim Cup as battle is joined in Germany; Carin Koch and Juli Inkster are the Captains, and if the competition is half as exciting as last year's, it will be some show. So long as the Europeans win, of course.  

10).Ten lords-a-leaping? Or the ten drinkies consumed by Jeff Overton at a College Basketball game recently before being escorted from the premises by Madison Square Garden arena security. Boom Baby more likely to receive a gardening leave notice from Tim Finchem than a Christmas Card.

11).Eleven pipers piping? Or eleven US Ryder Cup Task Force members piping the "Call for Freddie" tune. Who knows what will come of that; will Fred even answer the phone (as he's usually loth to do "in case there's someone there")?  

12).Twelve drummers drumming? My favourite drummers in 2014 were named Bjorn, Donaldson, Dubuisson, Gallacher, Garcia, Kaymer, McDowell, McIlroy, Poulter, Rose, Stenson, Westwood.


Perhaps by the time these notes resurface Tommy Fleetwood will have qualified for The Masters, Tony Jacklin will be celebrating a much-overdue knighthood and all of us will have enjoyed a safe and festive off-season.
Happy Christmas.

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Post by pedro Thu 18 Dec 2014, 12:02 am

Happy Christmas kwini and thanks for your contribution to this board. May it continue in 2015! PGA Tour: Twelve Days of Christmas: Notes from the Ballwasher 3513163098

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Post by beninho Thu 18 Dec 2014, 8:27 am

Thanks Kwini for the weekly updates, always appreciated.

And Happy Christmas to everyone, hope you all have a good one.

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Post by turnip Thu 18 Dec 2014, 12:35 pm

Thanks as always for the ongoing updates Kwini, still the highlight of my working week (and Happy Xmas to all the posters who keep this board alive).

The old milk board advert about Accrington Stanley...who are they?! not so funny anymore after last weekend.
Keep the faith...PUP

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Post by McLaren Thu 18 Dec 2014, 1:40 pm

Very good article kwin. (much better than the "exhibition" trashing stuff Wink ). Joking aside, it was a great read this week.


Did you catch any of the US amateur that was held at chambers bay? From what I can remember the course was pretty baked and some of the holes got a bit funky. I love that the big events are going to newer courses as it means the older masterpieces are left alone. I have said before that it would be great to see an open at the castle course or kingsbarnes. I would have added trumpton to that list but sadly the wigged one would profit from that.
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Post by kwinigolfer Thu 18 Dec 2014, 1:51 pm

Cheers chaps,

turnip,
I remember back in the dark ages, sometime after Accrington Stanley left the Football League, the civic poo-bahs offered the opinion that the community had suffered significant economic damage due to increasing lack of name recognition now their name was no longer a staple of Sports Report and the newspaper football scores.
Perish the thought that fate could befall Pompey, but we're headed in that direction!
All the best,
PUP

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Post by kwinigolfer Thu 18 Dec 2014, 2:46 pm

Thanks Mac,
But considering you posted that you didn't read the "exhibition" notes, damned with faint praise!

Didn't see any of the Chambers Bay US Am. Agree that one or two different courses for Majors is a positive, but there are plenty of outstanding candidates that are more tried & tested than CB.

Disappointing start to the Asian Tour's Dubai Open for Tommy Fleetwood as his first round 75 is only good for T76. That won't get him a Christmas Card from Augusta, so hope he can set the tournament to rights on Friday.

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Post by McLaren Thu 18 Dec 2014, 3:03 pm

Yeah but do any of the other candidates have the faux links look going on like CB does?

What courses would you like to see added to the US open or PGA championship rota, and I guess what courses would you remove?


(PS I did read the article in question eventually)
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Post by kwinigolfer Thu 18 Dec 2014, 3:25 pm

Who cares about "faux links"? There's already Pebble Beach on a ten(ish) year rotation, plus Torrey Pines was successful. Not sure any more are needed.

I actually loved the look of Sahalee for the PGA, WGC and Senior Open; just not sure there's "infrastructure", but if Merion can work, I'm sure Sahalee would - love those towering pine forests, just spectacular.
Also the USGA haven't been to Oakland Hills for twenty years, nor Cherry Hills, Oak Hill, Brookline, Southern Hills or Bellerive for a generation.

Upcoming schedule:
2015: Chambers Bay
2016: Oakmont
2017: Erin Hills
2018: Shinnecock
2019: Pebble Beach
2020: Winged Foot
2021: Torrey Pines
2022: onwards tba.
With speculation that Los Angeles CC is being negotiated, and reports of another quick return to the nouveau Pinehurst.

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Post by McLaren Thu 18 Dec 2014, 3:58 pm

Thought I may as well expand to the other venues

2015: Chambers bay (US open), TOC (open), Whistling Straits (pga)
2016: Oakmont, Troon, baltusrol
2017: Erin Hills, Birkdale, Quail Hollow
2018: Shinnecock, Carnoustie, Bellerive
2019: Pebble, Portrush ?, Bethpage Black
2020: Winged foot, TBC, Harding park
2021: Torrey Pines, TBC, TBC
2022: TBC, TBC, Trump National Golf Club

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Post by super_realist Thu 18 Dec 2014, 4:17 pm

Mac, Surely 2020 will be another bore fest at TOC?

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Post by McLaren Thu 18 Dec 2014, 4:39 pm

So new venues for majors in the coming years will be;

Chambers bay(2015)
Erin Hills (2016)
Harding Park (2020)
Trump National (2022)
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Post by kwinigolfer Thu 18 Dec 2014, 5:17 pm

Yes, But Harding Park is a well-established course, and hopefully TN will be by then also.

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Post by McLaren Thu 18 Dec 2014, 5:54 pm

Kwini

Sorry, I wasn't trying to refute any point you made but just list the new courses we will see in the coming years on the major rota.

Although I am interested why you think a course would need to be well established in the sense that it has hosted tour events before being used for a major. I would view a major as as the perfect event to use a course not picked up by the more market forces driven nature of what gets used for a tour event.

As robo/gbp have explained tour events have a core local support which keeps them going. So you could say these endeavors should be rewarded with major status or you could use a major to pick a course that has no hope of ever getting a tour event but is a great course.

Ideally you would have a mix of both. But it is clear that the status a major brings could bypass the need for any local effort in getting a course used for a pro event.
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Post by NedB-H Thu 18 Dec 2014, 6:08 pm

Am I the odd one out for being very excited over Chambers Bay then? Personally I find Pebble ten times more exciting than your usual 7000 yards, penal-rough-and trees US Open setups. As much as Kwini might enjoy pine trees - and I enjoyed the tighter setup at Olympic and the "natural" Pinehurst reroute this year - I'd suggest there is a far greater difference between Pebble, Chambers and other "faux-links" like Harbour Town, Whistling Straits (loved that PGA), than there is between your classic Congressionals, Oakmonts et al. And I find the latter far less exciting as major hosts.

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Post by McLaren Thu 18 Dec 2014, 6:11 pm

ned

You are not alone, I reckon CB will provide some pretty exciting viewing, especially compared to claustrophobic tree lined set ups.
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Post by kwinigolfer Thu 18 Dec 2014, 6:25 pm

Understood Mac. Also, never considered "hosting tour events" as a pre-requisite for staging a Major - quite different objectives for the Tour and USGA & PGA.

Ned,
Agree that CB might turn out to be a splendid test, not trying to say it wouldn't. But think it just needs to be test-driven a touch more.

Remember that Oakmont had a serious trim before the Cabrera Open, certainly not a stereotypical USGA lay-out any more.

I DO reckon Sahalee is a spectacularly scenic course, but certainly take your point regarding Congressional, for instance, but am a big fan of Oak Hill while Oakland Hills has enough variety too.

Only nine months to wait for another dose of Whistling Straits . . . . . .


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Post by robopz Thu 18 Dec 2014, 6:30 pm

Kwini... awesome job all year bud... PGA Tour: Twelve Days of Christmas: Notes from the Ballwasher 3602195817

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Post by robopz Thu 18 Dec 2014, 6:56 pm

IMHO most overlooked and mostly unknown great golf course in America is The Alotian Club in central Arkansas right outside Little Rock. Always ranked high on "the lists" yet still seems nobody's ever heard of it. Or at least that was true for me when I was staying in Hot Springs 4 or 5 years ago and one of our group insisted we make the hour+ drive over to play it. I had no clue the place even existed, but sheesh... what a gem it turned out.

It's a Fazio track, only about 10 years old but stunning and with real character on every hole. And seems to me any non-Nicklaus course that Jack shows up semi-regularly to play "giggle golf" on has got to have something going for it.

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Post by kwinigolfer Thu 18 Dec 2014, 7:03 pm

Cheers robo,
Always fancied going to Hot Springs, for the Arkansas Derby! Missed the chance when I lived in Dallas. Thanks for the tip on "Alotian"; honestly hadn't heard of it. Cue: Research.


PS: Did you see the McCarron/Brendle interview last week that I mentioned yesterday (5.46 p.m. posting) on last week's thread? McCarron has potential as a commentator I think, always seems very popular with the players too which helps a broadcast muchly.

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Post by robopz Thu 18 Dec 2014, 7:40 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:PS: Did you see the McCarron/Brendle interview last week that I mentioned yesterday (5.46 p.m. posting) on last week's thread? McCarron has potential as a commentator I think, always seems very popular with the players too which helps a broadcast muchly.
Yes, saw your comments and agree about McCarron's potential.

And for Brendle... heck of a nice guy to be sure, but not wise to get in his face during a ruling.... ask Frank Lickliter how that works... :-). I heard about his plans to retire late last year which surprised me as he always impressed me as the kind of guy who'd they'd have to drag kicking and screaming off the course, and not one for the voluntary retirement deal. But that said, the road life, especially with the hours those guys work is a lot harder than people think.

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Post by Shotrock Thu 18 Dec 2014, 8:35 pm

Robo - Just landed a sizable client in Little Rock and will be sure to seek out a round at the Alotian Club. Have also heard great things about it.

Ned - I would argue that Oakmont is one of the greatest tests (in these United States) of major professional golf. Great shot variety, hole variety, penal (but not overly penal) rough, and yes speedy but not (if managed properly) unfair greens. That said, it's simply too hard for the average joe on a regular basis. All IMO of course.

Wonderful write up Kwin!

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Post by robopz Fri 19 Dec 2014, 12:02 am

Shotrock wrote:Robo - Just landed a sizable client in Little Rock and will be sure to seek out a round at the Alotian Club. Have also heard great things about it.

Ned - I would argue that Oakmont is one of the greatest tests (in these United States) of major professional golf. Great shot variety, hole variety, penal (but not overly penal) rough, and yes speedy but not (if managed properly) unfair greens. That said, it's simply too hard for the average joe on a regular basis. All IMO of course.
I'll be looking forward to see if your reviews are as positive as mine on Alotian. And absolutely agree on Oakmont... Had a guy host me on a dream trip back in the late 90's... Oakmont was one of them on that trip. I was a decent low single digit at the time and tee to green I found the course most playable... tee to green that its... but I actually hit it into the church pews on purpose, I just wanted to say I had played out of them.. :-). But the green's... sheeeeeeeeeeeee uuuuus!!! One hole early on the front nine, I came up short in regulation, chipped up from the FW maybe 30 yards short of the green... ball ran further than expected maybe 3' past and 5' left... then I putted... caught a lip... for my next shot I was within maybe 5-10 feet from where I had hit my first chip 30 yds short of the green....

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Post by McLaren Fri 19 Dec 2014, 12:13 am

Robo

I understand what your sentiment in hitting it into the church pews on purpose. The first time I played TOC I aimed at the road hole bunker because I thought it would be cool to play out of it. I flew the bunker "unfortunately" and ended up about 8 feet from one of the trickiest road hole pin positions. Sadly since then I have suffered in the damn thing when I definitely didn't want to be in it.
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Post by GPB Fri 19 Dec 2014, 12:48 am

robopz wrote:And for Brendle... heck of a nice guy to be sure, but not wise to get in his face during a ruling.... ask Frank Lickliter how that works... :-).  I heard about his plans to retire late last year which surprised me as he always impressed me as the kind of guy who'd they'd have to drag kicking and screaming off the course, and not one for the voluntary retirement deal.  But that said, the road life, especially with the hours those guys work is a lot harder than people think.  


Lickliter - Brendle ?  Shark Shootout about 12 yrs ago?

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 19 Dec 2014, 12:50 am

Ah, perhaps John Daly and Brad Faxon might have been involved?

Lickliter is the most boorish golfer I've ever followed.

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Post by robopz Fri 19 Dec 2014, 1:25 am

Actually not sure where the Lickliter Brendle thing started... but it was apparently ongoing.  I became aware of it here at Houston in maybe 2003 or 04. time frame.  Lickliter flairs his tee ball and there was a question if was lost or in a hazard.  I happened to be along the ropes across the FW from where it was happening with Frank's swing guru from back then.  When he sees Brendle pulling up, he was like "oh $**t... here we go, those two are like oil and water"...  (thats the SFW version)...  I never really knew the origin of it... or if I did i've forgotten the details other than they apparently really got in each others face  once or twice before...  But to be fair, the situation I witnessed that particular day might at most be described as "tense", but there wasn't any big blow up or anything... (Course just saying hello to Lickliter could be tense... what a dikwad... )

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Post by GPB Fri 19 Dec 2014, 2:05 am

Lickliter is probably one of a few (if any) PGATour pros that would not look out of place in a Biker Bar.  Well maybe Bill Glasson too.

The Shark shootout incident might have included Daly and/or Faxon.  I remember that Lickliter playing companion came over to oversee a drop (or something similar) and Lickliter basically told them F*** off.

I never liked him either.

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Post by super_realist Fri 19 Dec 2014, 8:00 am

McLaren wrote:Robo

I understand what your sentiment in hitting it into the church pews on purpose.  The first time I played TOC I aimed at the road hole bunker because I thought it would be cool to play out of it.  I flew the bunker "unfortunately" and ended up about 8 feet from one of the trickiest road hole pin positions.  Sadly since then I have suffered in the damn thing when I definitely didn't want to be in it.

Strangely Mac, I've only ever been in that bunker once, and never in Hell Bunker.
Never understood the issue with Hell Bunker, it simply doesn't come into play anymore. They are redoing it right now.

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 19 Dec 2014, 9:44 am

Fleetwood struggling in Dubai, three strokes south of the cut-line, 15 x Round 2 holes to play.
Not Masters form.

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Post by McLaren Fri 19 Dec 2014, 9:59 am

Kwini

So what criteria are you using to decide if a course is suitable for holding a major if you are not thinking about previous tour usage?

Don't most of the new rota courses hold something like a us amateur, senior major or similar before getting the main gig?
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Post by super_realist Fri 19 Dec 2014, 10:06 am

Mac, I think a course which is capable of setting up a good deal of drama in the closing holes is something essential in a major. In terms of the Open, I think that minimises a great number of courses.
Be nice if they didn't limit themselves to Links courses, never understood why this had to be the type of course. Some great Heathland courses in Britain, also, why does it have to be in Britain? Could get some top links courses in Sweden or Holland onto the rota.

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 19 Dec 2014, 10:32 am

Mac,
Well, there has to be geographical balance, and a local infrastructure (transportation, accommodation, etc, etc), and I would suggest a US Open should be played on a course that has been tried and tested as a Championship venue.

For Chambers Bay, it's fantastic that the USGA is going to the Pacific NorthWest, but I question awarding the National Championship to a venue one year after it opened - in 2007. Seems unseemly haste to me. They have only played the US Amateur (in 2010) there, won by Peter Uihlein.
I'm sure it'll be "alright on the night", but why would you not stage another event or two there, and allow the place to mature a bit?

Same pretty much with Erin Hills in Wisconsin, though a couple of USGA tournaments have been held there, including the 2011 US Amateur won by Kelly Kraft. There have been ownership shenanigans there, but they seem now to be resolved. Still pretty much an unknown quantity though.

I may be too much of a traditionalist on these things, but both venues strike me as unnecessarily risky propositions when there are viable alternatives.

fyi, Not many courses used for USGA or PGA Championships have been used as Tour venues, tho' Torrey Pines and Pebble are exceptions and Quail Hollow will be another.


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Post by pedro Fri 19 Dec 2014, 10:57 am

super_realist wrote:Mac, I think a course which is capable of setting up a good deal of drama in the closing holes is something essential in a major. In terms of the Open, I think that minimises a great number of courses.
Be nice if they didn't limit themselves to Links courses, never understood why this had to be the type of course. Some great Heathland courses in Britain, also, why does it have to be in Britain? Could get some top links courses in Sweden or Holland onto the rota.
Agree about UK heathland courses -- but it's also nice to have at least a few events on links courses.

Apart from 2-3 events in UK only the KLM Dutch Open is now played at a links course. When Volvo was sponsoring the Scandinavian Masters used to be played at Barseback outside Malmo (now played at another excellent course outside Stockholm), once also host to the Solheim Cup. Barseback is a mix between links and heathland and is frequently rated as one of the best courses in Europe. It has excellent infrastructure and is close to big airports (CPH).

But having The (British) Open outside the UK (eg. at Barseback) would probably be a stretch, baring in mind the conservative nature of the geezers in the R&A.

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Post by super_realist Fri 19 Dec 2014, 11:03 am

Very true, sadly not very progressive at the R and A.


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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 19 Dec 2014, 11:07 am

But why would you take The Open to Sweden when their own tournament is on life support?
Not sure I agree with a Field Of Dreams approach when it comes to such Championships.

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Post by super_realist Fri 19 Dec 2014, 11:09 am

Just an example Kwini, as a result of the Open being a bit boring these days. America have 3 majors and will never take one outside, be nice to see The Open elsewhere as it's a pretty dire tournament on a lot of tired courses.

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Post by pedro Fri 19 Dec 2014, 11:25 am

It would be bit of a PR stunt taking golf's premier event to alternative places. Bit like Tour de France is doing. Generates a lot of local interest in an otherwise dying sport, but probably compromises the integrity(?) of such event.

A bit easier to take the Ryder Cup outside UK. First time in '97 and next in 2018. IMO RC in Europe should only be played in the UK/GB every third time or so.

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Post by super_realist Fri 19 Dec 2014, 11:32 am

Does anyone consider The Open the premier golf event? It isn't for me.

K Club is outside UK isn't it? Oirland?

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Post by pedro Fri 19 Dec 2014, 11:35 am

I meant the Britsh Isles........ Very Happy

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Post by McLaren Fri 19 Dec 2014, 11:35 am

Super

I think you will be alone in thinking the open is a duff event.
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Post by super_realist Fri 19 Dec 2014, 11:49 am

I'm not saying it's duff, I just don't see it as the Premier event, for me it's probably number 3 of the majors.
Masters and US Open coming ahead of it, mostly due to the poor choice of courses for British Open.

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Post by robopz Fri 19 Dec 2014, 11:52 am

pedro wrote:But having The (British) Open outside the UK (eg. at Barseback) would probably be a stretch, baring in mind the conservative nature of the geezers in the R&A.
Say what you will about Ted Bishop rein at the PGA of A.... but I liked the discussion he was forwarding about possibly sharing the PGA Championship with the rest of the world with potential occasional venues outside the U.S. While the new PGA of A leadership may not exactly qualify as geezers, it appears as though they might as well be as the "portable PGA" idea got shelved pretty quickly as soon as Bishop was ushered out the door.

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Post by robopz Fri 19 Dec 2014, 12:01 pm

super_realist wrote:I'm not saying it's duff, I just don't see it as the Premier event, for me it's probably number 3 of the majors.
Masters and US Open coming ahead of it, mostly due to the poor choice of courses for British Open.
Can't speak for all Americans of course, but while admittedly the Masters is my favorite of all the majors, I enjoy the Open as much as any of the other majors... and for me that's because of the courses they use, not despite them. We just don't get to see much true links golf around here, and even the "linksy-looking" courses we occasionally use for majors here, mostly don't play like true links (see Kiawah Island)

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Post by super_realist Fri 19 Dec 2014, 12:11 pm

Maybe because I play Links every week Robo I perhaps see it a bit differently, conversely, I don't get to play Heathland too much.

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 19 Dec 2014, 1:00 pm

Tommy Fleetwood way off the pace in Dubai and he'll have to depend upon strong performances early in 2015 if he's to qualify for next year's Masters. Looks from thousands of miles away like a very poor effort.

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Post by robopz Fri 19 Dec 2014, 2:54 pm

super_realist wrote:Maybe because I play Links every week Robo I perhaps see it a bit differently, conversely, I don't get to play Heathland too much.
Oh I get it... we're just the opposite... we play a lot of "heartland" too (we call it parkland around here), and even the seaside we get to play over here isn't really links golf (despite being labeled as such)... or at least none I've ever played here are.  Surprising, the closest I've ever played to links golf here in the states has been in West Texas on dried out windblown "goat ranches" that actually allowed [or required] you to play the ball on the ground all the way through [most of] the greens.

Kwini, RE Fleetwood...  Every shot (or result) makes somebody happy...  I suppose Mr Willett can be counted in the happy camp. Like you, I can't know what went wrong for Fleetwood this week, but against this level of field, not unreasonable to expect even middling to relatively poor performance by his standards should have been enough to at least scare the cut.


Last edited by robopz on Fri 19 Dec 2014, 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by super_realist Fri 19 Dec 2014, 3:00 pm

There's a big difference between Heathland (not Heartland) and Parkland over here. Two different types of course Robo.

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Post by robopz Fri 19 Dec 2014, 3:04 pm

super_realist wrote:There's a big difference between Heathland (not Heartland) and Parkland over here. Two different types of course Robo.
Enlighten me... I really wouldn't know the distinction. Around here, for the most part we consider an inland course thats mostly natural in it's appearance and  lushness to be "parkland".  Artificial contructs defying their natural surroundings would not be (IE most desert courses)

EDIT:  SNAP... DUH... reading comprehension issue on my part.. HEATH not HEART... my bad.   I'd still like a description of what that means though...

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Post by super_realist Fri 19 Dec 2014, 3:29 pm

Heathland tends to have well draining mature soil and lots of low growing plants like heather on it rather than thick grassy rough you'd find in parkland, lots of large mature pines.
It's sort of a mix between links and parkland.
So somewhere like Walton Heath, Wentworth, Blairgowrie etc are good examples.

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