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Kingspan Stadium to Host Pro12 Final

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Post by Kingshu Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:21 am

New development for the League,


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30980843

Final is going to be annoced in advance from now on,

TBH I don't like this idea at all.

All the hosts of the final so far have been able to sell it out before hand, it rewards the team that finishes higher in the league, and what happens is say the final is Ospreys V Glasgow are all these fans expected to travel to Belfast?

Better have the higher team in the League host it, other wise I can see the final being mostly played out in with mostly neutral crowds.

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Post by Notch Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:26 am

This is a great opportunity for us- all we have to do is win an away semi-final if we can't crack the top two. Then we have the home-ground advantage.

But think it is a very stupid idea in general, for the reasons you point out. If it's not Ulster in the Final, then I'm obviously not going to bother to go and the traveling support could be thin depending on who is playing.

They'll be alright if its an Irish team, or two, but if its a Glasgow vs Ospreys final and there will be red faces and a return to the old format most likely.
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Post by geoff998rugby Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:32 am

If Ospreys play Glasgow any slack will be taken up by the locals.
I think that is true of other Irish grounds.

Provided an Irish team is in the final or the final is in Ireland the crowd will be a decent one.
However if say Ospreys played Cardiff in Edinburgh it would be terrible

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:33 am

This is bullsh!t and shows that the league is indeed geared to support the big Irish provinces more than any other team, with the way the league stands at the moment then it could be Ospreys V Glasgow in the final, the stadium as nice as it is will be half full if they are lucky, and as stated by notch, Ulster only need to finish fourth, and if they win the away semi final then they will get a home final, the same goes for Munster or Leinster, all they will need to do is win their away semi's and they will get a final to play in their own country. I stated this on another thread, the way it is geared up, all the finals will be played in Ireland.

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Post by Kingshu Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:33 am

Its not on BBC's main page anymore, hoping that it was a mistake.

and thats its just Ravenhill can host final is Ulster are highest placed finisher, due to new capacity which prevented us before.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:36 am

For me they should use the national stadium of the team that finishes top for the final.

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Post by geoff998rugby Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:43 am

LordDowlais wrote:This is bullsh!t and shows that the league is indeed geared to support the big Irish provinces more than any other team, with the way the league stands at the moment then it could be Ospreys V Glasgow in the final, the stadium as nice as it is will be half full if they are lucky, and as stated by notch, Ulster only need to finish fourth, and if they win the away semi final then they will get a home final, the same goes for Munster or Leinster, all they will need to do is win their away semi's and they will get a final to play in their own country. I stated this on another thread, the way it is geared up, all the finals will be played in Ireland.

If the game is Ospreys v Glasgow it will not be half full.
Many a local will go.

Not saying I agree with the decision but I am guessing that leaving it late is considered unacceptable - and it is a pain for flights, accomodation and the like.

Not some Irish conspriacy merely a desire to put the competition on a more professional footing - whether you agree with it or not.


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Post by Notch Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:46 am

When it comes right down to it, everything in rugby is an Irish conspiracy. We're like the Illuminati and the Freemasons rolled into one Very Happy
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:46 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Not some Irish conspriacy merely a desire to put the competition on a more professional footing - whether you agree with it or not.

Can you please explain to me why it would be more professional to play a game in a country where none of the teams come from ? No wonder most of the Welsh posters on here are saying the Pro12 is rubbish, especialy when you get decisions like this being made, well I am one fan who would not travel to Ireland to watch the Welsh regions, it costs too much.

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Post by geoff998rugby Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:55 am

So when Clermont play Toulon in this years European championship final does that mean that competition is rubbish.

That different between most Welsh fans and most Irish fans - we would not think twice about going to Swansea or Edinburgh.

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Post by Notch Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:57 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Not some Irish conspriacy merely a desire to put the competition on a more professional footing - whether you agree with it or not.

Can you please explain to me why it would be more professional to play a game in a country where none of the teams come from ? No wonder most of the Welsh posters on here are saying the Pro12 is rubbish, especialy when you get decisions like this being made, well I am one fan who would not travel to Ireland to watch the Welsh regions, it costs too much.

But it will cost a lot less if you book it now. Hence the decision to announce the venue now.
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:58 am

geoff998rugby wrote:So when Clermont play Toulon in this years European championship final does that mean that competition is rubbish.

That different between most Welsh fans and most Irish fans - we would not think twice about going to Swansea or Edinburgh.

The CC is different, why does it always come down to this, comparing two saperate things to justify your cause. The Pro12 belongs to all of us, not just the Irish. The way this league is being run, and the decisions that are being made in Dublin, then the Pro12 will not last very long. The Pro12 will start fading before long as more and more people get fed up of it.

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Post by Kingshu Mon 26 Jan 2015, 10:59 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Not some Irish conspriacy merely a desire to put the competition on a more professional footing - whether you agree with it or not.

Can you please explain to me why it would be more professional to play a game in a country where none of the teams come from ? No wonder most of the Welsh posters on here are saying the Pro12 is rubbish, especialy when you get decisions like this being made, well I am one fan who would not travel to Ireland to watch the Welsh regions, it costs too much.

To be fair LordDowlas, next year it could be held in the Liberity stadium, and the finalists be Ulster and Leinster, don't see this being any more unfair to the Irish than to the Welsh.

I was a fan of the old system, and I can understand they want to set it early, to give fans the best chance to make plans. But there hasn't been a problem with it being sold out in the old system, as far as I know every final has been sold out.

It may mean that some finals sell out, but people don't go, I'd assume that most of the advance tickets would be purchased by fans of the bigger teams, and if say thier team doesn't make it, I'd say a fair few of them won't bother travelling, or sell there tickets to fans who made the final for a nice profit.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:00 am

The way things are geared up at the moment, there is three times the chance for a final to be played in Ireland, like I said earlier, the national stadiums of the league winner should host the final.

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:00 am

LordDowlais wrote:For me they should use the national stadium of the team that finishes top for the final.

Problem with that is that they might not know where it's going to be until a week or two before (unless you meant that whoever finishes top, even if they go out in the playoff semi). Even then they'll only have a month. If it gets big enough to fill out a big stadium it would make sense to have it cycling through the national stadiums.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:02 am

If any of the Irish sides finish outside the top two, but then win their QF, then the advantage for the side that finishes top is ripped from them striaght away.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:03 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:For me they should use the national stadium of the team that finishes top for the final.

Problem with that is that they might not know where it's going to be until a week or two before (unless you meant that whoever finishes top, even if they go out in the playoff semi).  Even then they'll only have a month.  If it gets big enough to fill out a big stadium it would make sense to have it cycling through the national stadiums.

You could play the final a fortnight after, that is two weeks to get you affairs in order, for me they way it stands is bollox.

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:05 am

I think these things usually take more than a couple of weeks to arrange. There is a reason why they get announced early.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:07 am

HammerofThunor wrote:I think these things usually take more than a couple of weeks to arrange.  There is a reason why they get announced early.

Well how have they done it up until now ?

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Post by Impossible Standards Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:10 am

Personally I think this is a ridiculous idea. Surely the team that finished top and succeeds through to the final should have the game at their home ground. Not a fan of this decision and why choose Ulsters ground anyway? What has been the decision process behind this? Nothing against Ulster of course but what about staging the final in Italy. They could do with the coverage and the weather would be nicer Smile. It does seem geared towards Irish bias in this decision.
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Post by Notch Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:11 am

Impossible Standards wrote:Personally I think this is a ridiculous idea. Surely the team that finished top and succeeds through to the final should have the game at their home ground. Not a fan of this decision and why choose Ulsters ground anyway? What has been the decision process behind this? Nothing against Ulster of course but what about staging the final in Italy. They could do with the coverage and the weather would be nicer Smile. It does seem geared towards Irish bias in this decision.

Impossible to tell that based on one year. Give it five years and then you can say that. By rights the next one should be outside Ireland etc.
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:12 am

Notch wrote: By rights the next one should be outside Ireland etc.

Not if they want to keep the big Irish sponsers happy it wont.

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:I think these things usually take more than a couple of weeks to arrange.  There is a reason why they get announced early.

Well how have they done it up until now ?

Because it's the local club ground. You're proposing the national stadiums that have 50000+ seats. These grounds are often used for other things, have limitations and requirements for hosting big games, require additional transport, etc.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:16 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:I think these things usually take more than a couple of weeks to arrange.  There is a reason why they get announced early.

Well how have they done it up until now ?

Because it's the local club ground.  You're proposing the national stadiums that have 50000+ seats.  These grounds are often used for other things, have limitations and requirements for hosting big games, require additional transport, etc.

Whats the difference, Cardiff Blues have used the MS before, and to quite a sucsess as well. I am not buying into this, it is hard enough to get fans to support the regions as it is, there is not enough interest, and the way the Pro12 is being run does not help, this will not go down well with the supporters of the Welsh regions.

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Post by Impossible Standards Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:17 am

Impossible to tell that based on one year. Give it five years and then you can say that. By rights the next one should be outside Ireland etc.

But my point was that why has Ulster's ground been chosen first? What criteria did they meet for this decision? I just prefer the idea of the team that finishes top of the league should have home advantage otherwise we lose another incentive in an already struggling league.
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Post by VinceWLB Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:17 am

So where is the reward for finnishing top now? Don't like this idea one bit sorry.

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:17 am

Used the MS for what? A game organised a few weeks in advance? Or a game that was organised months in advance?

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Post by Notch Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:18 am

Impossible Standards wrote:
Impossible to tell that based on one year. Give it five years and then you can say that. By rights the next one should be outside Ireland etc.

But my point was that why has Ulster's ground been chosen first? What criteria did they meet for this decision? I just prefer the idea of the team that finishes top of the league should have home advantage otherwise we lose another incentive in an already struggling league.

Size criteria, never hosted a Final before. I can tell you its an excellent venue for it regardless. Home advantage doesn't mean that much in the Final because the tickets are split 50/50 anyway.
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:19 am

HammerofThunor wrote:Used the MS for what? A game organised a few weeks in advance? Or a game that was organised months in advance?



A few weeks. I remember, becuase I went there, I think it was for the highest attended Pro12 game. OK

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Post by George Carlin Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:19 am

Does this mean that I finally get to try a Ravenhill crepe?
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:20 am

Notch wrote:
Impossible Standards wrote:
Impossible to tell that based on one year. Give it five years and then you can say that. By rights the next one should be outside Ireland etc.

But my point was that why has Ulster's ground been chosen first? What criteria did they meet for this decision? I just prefer the idea of the team that finishes top of the league should have home advantage otherwise we lose another incentive in an already struggling league.

Size criteria, never hosted a Final before. I can tell you its an excellent venue for it regardless. Home advantage doesn't mean that much in the Final because the tickets are split 50/50 anyway.

It does when you have to catch a plane or a boat to get there. OK

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Post by Notch Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:21 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Notch wrote:
Impossible Standards wrote:
Impossible to tell that based on one year. Give it five years and then you can say that. By rights the next one should be outside Ireland etc.

But my point was that why has Ulster's ground been chosen first? What criteria did they meet for this decision? I just prefer the idea of the team that finishes top of the league should have home advantage otherwise we lose another incentive in an already struggling league.

Size criteria, never hosted a Final before. I can tell you its an excellent venue for it regardless. Home advantage doesn't mean that much in the Final because the tickets are split 50/50 anyway.

It does when you have to catch a plane or a boat to get there. OK

Right, but its not an automatic advantage for the Irish teams like some are saying. If this is the system from now on it will be swings and roundabouts in terms of travelling. Some years it will be held in Ireland, some in Wales, some in Scotland and so on.

You can get a bus from Ulster to Glasgow for less than £30 if I remember correctly. Cheap flights all over the UK now. It's not as if it's a particularly expensive trip.

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Post by Kingshu Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:23 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:So when Clermont play Toulon in this years European championship final does that mean that competition is rubbish.

That different between most Welsh fans and most Irish fans - we would not think twice about going to Swansea or Edinburgh.

The CC is different, why does it always come down to this, comparing two saperate things to justify your cause. The Pro12 belongs to all of us, not just the Irish. The way this league is being run, and the decisions that are being made in Dublin, then the Pro12 will not last very long. The Pro12 will start fading before long as more and more people get fed up of it.

And if next year the final is in the Liberity, PYS or MS will you be say there is a Welsh bias in the league, and the next year a Scottish one???


One good thing that has been overlooked is that it means there is final will be in Italy within 4 years.

It would be good for them to get a big club final.

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:24 am

LordDowlais wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Used the MS for what? A game organised a few weeks in advance? Or a game that was organised months in advance?



A few weeks. I remember, becuase I went there, I think it was for the highest attended Pro12 game. OK

Which game was that?

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Post by Chunky Norwich Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:26 am

Very Happy You couldn't write it.

This pretty much guarantees a home final for the Irish sides.

Just when you think the worst league in the world couldn't get any worse.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:27 am

Notch wrote:Right, but its not an automatic advantage for the Irish teams like some are saying. If this is the system from now on it will be swings and roundabouts. Some years it will be held in Ireland, some in Wales, some in Scotland and so on.

But Ireland have three times the chance to hold it, becuase the national stadiums are not being used, well I would suppose Murrifield will be used in Scotland. How can Cardiff Blues, Newport Gwent Dragons or Scarlets ever benifit from a final played by anybody in Swansea ? Even if they are in that final they would not get as much benefit than they would playing it at their own ground.

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Post by Notch Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:29 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Notch wrote:Right, but its not an automatic advantage for the Irish teams like some are saying. If this is the system from now on it will be swings and roundabouts. Some years it will be held in Ireland, some in Wales, some in Scotland and so on.

But Ireland have three times the chance to hold it, becuase the national stadiums are not being used, well I would suppose Murrifield will be used in Scotland. How can Cardiff Blues, Newport Gwent Dragons or Scarlets ever benifit from a final played by anybody in Swansea ? Even if they are in that final they would not get as much benefit than they would playing it at their own ground.

Jeez, are you serious? Swansea is a very short distance from all of their home grounds. Their own grounds are too small to accommodate the number of traveling fans that they would get. If Dragons hosted a final at their ground they would only have 3500 tickets for their own fans.

Right now, the only option in Wales for hosting a Final are the Liberty Stadium and the Millennium Stadium and there's nothing to say the Millennium Stadium can't/won't be used.


Last edited by Notch on Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by geoff998rugby Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:30 am

Each team gets 50% of the tickets - if fans choose not take up the tickets thats there problem. Ulster will get no tickets for this final unless we are in it and quite rightly so.
However if it is not Leinster v Munster tickets will be available because of the take up from Ospreys and Glasgow.

Italy not considered neither ground big enough.
Maybe just maybe for team with grounds not big enough non rugby grounds will be put forward but for the first year they wanted a simple guaranteed option where it will be sell out or a near sell out regardless of the participants

Ulster getting it but that is hardly Irish bias next year could be Liberty or Murrayfield.
If it is in Ireland 3 years running there would be justification of claiming bias but based on one game such a claim is plain stupid.

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Post by GLove39 Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:33 am

What an utter slap in the face from pro12. To just move the goalposts half way through the season. furious

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:33 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Used the MS for what? A game organised a few weeks in advance? Or a game that was organised months in advance?



A few weeks. I remember, becuase I went there, I think it was for the highest attended Pro12 game. OK

Which game was that?

I think it was in 2005/2006 when they played Leinster, they were looking for a bumper crowd but never got it, it was still a record at the time though. OK

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Post by Chunky Norwich Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:33 am

Notch wrote: Swansea is a very short distance from all of their home grounds. Their own grounds are too small to accommodate the number of traveling fans that they would get. If Dragons hosted a final at their ground they would only have 3500 tickets for their own fans.


So how did Scotstoun get pipped to the post by the Kingspan then?

https://balls.ie/rugby/ravenhill-pro-12-final-venue/

It has the same capacity as the Dragons ground.

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Post by geoff998rugby Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:36 am

GLove39 wrote:What an utter slap in the face from pro12. To just move the goalposts half way through the season. furious

They took the lead shown to them by the new European competition last year Very Happy

It does not in anyway mitigate finishing 1st or 2nd which guarantees a home SF.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:37 am

GLove39 wrote:What an utter slap in the face from pro12. To just move the goalposts half way through the season. furious

I know, tell us about it, every year thus far the finals have been in Ireland, the one season where it looks it might not happen, they change the rules and put the final in Ireland anyway, it stinks of shiote I can tell you.

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Post by Notch Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:37 am

I doubt that is accurate information, unless Scotstoun demonstrated they can expand the size of that ground to 18000 with temporary seating. Scotstoun is otherwise too small- though they did expand it in size for the World Series of 7s.

I imagine that's it.
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Post by geoff998rugby Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:37 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Notch wrote: Swansea is a very short distance from all of their home grounds. Their own grounds are too small to accommodate the number of traveling fans that they would get. If Dragons hosted a final at their ground they would only have 3500 tickets for their own fans.


So how did Scotstoun get pipped to the post by the Kingspan then?

https://balls.ie/rugby/ravenhill-pro-12-final-venue/

It has the same capacity as the Dragons ground.

Neither the Dragons ground or Scotstoun meet the 18,000 capacity requirement

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Post by VinceWLB Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:41 am

LordDowlais wrote:
GLove39 wrote:What an utter slap in the face from pro12. To just move the goalposts half way through the season. furious

I know, tell us about it, every year thus far the finals have been in Ireland, the one season where it looks it might not happen, they change the rules and put the final in Ireland anyway, it stinks of shiote I can tell you.

Hard to argue against that.

And i'm as big a pro 12 fan as it gets.

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Post by GLove39 Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:41 am

geoff998rugby wrote:
GLove39 wrote:What an utter slap in the face from pro12. To just move the goalposts half way through the season. furious

They took the lead shown to them by the new European competition last year Very Happy

It does not in anyway mitigate finishing 1st or 2nd which guarantees a home SF.

True, but I liked that the top seed team got home advantage in the final, an extra incentive to push for the very top. And weird to do this mid season & unsurprisingly with little or actually no fanfare from the pro12

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Post by Chunky Norwich Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:42 am

geoff998rugby wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Notch wrote: Swansea is a very short distance from all of their home grounds. Their own grounds are too small to accommodate the number of traveling fans that they would get. If Dragons hosted a final at their ground they would only have 3500 tickets for their own fans.


So how did Scotstoun get pipped to the post by the Kingspan then?

https://balls.ie/rugby/ravenhill-pro-12-final-venue/

It has the same capacity as the Dragons ground.

Neither the Dragons ground or Scotstoun meet the 18,000 capacity requirement

So why did they bid for it?

How many of the teams competing in this league meet the ground requirements?

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Post by Impossible Standards Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:42 am

Size criteria, never hosted a Final before. I can tell you its an excellent venue for it regardless. Home advantage doesn't mean that much in the Final because the tickets are split 50/50 anyway.

If Ulster played at their ground in a final how would that not be advantageous for them? Tickets are split 50-50 but there's no guarantee that the away allocation would all sell out. Meaning the remaining tickets are free for anyone to purchase.

Is there a size criteria for this then? So that means that already some teams won't ever get a final at their ground. For example the Dragons ground Rodney Parade only holds 9K so I guess we are out if the cut off was 15K+. (ok so we won't ever get to a final). I would happily travel to Ulster if they topped the league and we had to play them in the final as it would be justified for their success on the field. Again I'm not having a go at Ulster here I would have the same argument if the final was at Swansea and Glasgow had come first in the league. This just doesn't sit right with me.
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 26 Jan 2015, 11:43 am

VinceWLB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
GLove39 wrote:What an utter slap in the face from pro12. To just move the goalposts half way through the season. furious

I know, tell us about it, every year thus far the finals have been in Ireland, the one season where it looks it might not happen, they change the rules and put the final in Ireland anyway, it stinks of shiote I can tell you.

Hard to argue against that.

And i'm as big a pro 12 fan as it gets.

Vince, I am conviced it is to keep the big Irish sponsors of the league happy. furious

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