PGA Tour: Rising from the Ashes in Phoenix?: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).Sound familiar? Turns up at his press conference in Phoenix just a week or so from appearing in mug shots looking, shall we say, not his normal self, back after his face has undergone, as Shawn Colvin might sing, "A few small repairs", out of contention for more than a year and no Majors since 2008, and moaning at the press for making too much of a slight rearrangement:
Press: "So many people are not believing your story."
Golfer: "Dude, you guys, it's just the way the media is. It is what it is."
Press: "It's not just the media."
Golfer: "It is just what it is."

2).But enough about Tiger Woods, I'm more interested in Robert Allenby. And the script is pretty much the same. Who knows what to believe, but Aussie Allenby has been a pretty good player, a sometimes entertaining pro to follow, friend, mentor and benefactor to Jarrod Lyle, and author of one of the finest shots ever to win a PGA Tour Play Off, this time in pouring rain at Riviera. Six golfers set out from the 18th tee, a motley crew including Tway, Sluman, Chamblee, Izawa and Paulson. (No coincidence that two of them are broadcasters now.) And Allenby, in a downpour, laced a 2-iron to within tap-in distance to win the tournament.

Four shots off the winning score was the son of a professional footballer who is in the Stockport County Hall Of Fame! (And it's a curiosity that four of the Football League teams that Dad played for are now in the Conference, or worse!!)

3).But one shouldn't digress. Very happy to see Bill Haas win the final "Humana"-sponsored tournament in the California desert, and won't be surprised if he goes on to have a terrific year, which he'll probably wrap up as a member of his Dad's winning Presidents Cup Team.

4).Also at "Humana", Phil Mickelson tied for the tournament lead in birdies, perhaps a sign that the nearly-45-year-old might be fit and ready to go for 2015? Phil will be playing Phoenix and the "Farmers" at Torrey Pines, skip Pebble Beach and Riviera, and be back in the saddle by the WGC:Cadillac.

5).He also announced his intention to play the WGC:MatchPlay at Harding Park, in May. So far then, Mickelson will be competing in the MatchPlay but Donald will be taking the week off, so we're talking the Top 65 in the owgr rankings, at least, to tee it up in San Francisco.

6).Also notable from "Humana" is the performance of three "anchorers": Brendan Steele finished T2, Webb Simpson was T7 (leading the field in putting), and Carl Pettersson was cruising well inside the cut-line until closing with a 3-hole, four-over par flourish to miss the cut by one. All with short putters.
Keegan Bradley is flip-flopping between a regular stroke and anchoring, while Tim Clark and Kevin Stadler are among the few anchoring hold-outs. When they're healthy.

7).They all want to play in Phoenix, probably the most over-subscribed tournament of this year's Tour. Wheatcroft tied for 2nd last week and is an alternate as his Top Ten exemption is gazumped, as is Colt Knost's.
Mansfield's Greg Owen is 34th alternate, Richard Sterne about 40th. No-one said it was going to be easy Richard.

8).The second biggest cheque won by a European golfer last week was the $300+K banked by Miguel-Angel Jimenez as he won the season-opening Champions Tour event in Hawaii. Bernhard Langer, anchoring as usual, finished five shots back despite taking a TEN on a Par-5, duffing one shot after another in the lava, getting himself into a lather. One-time "Humana" and Phoenix winner, Jesper Parnevik, turns 50 in a few weeks and it'll be interesting to see how he does. (Talking about golfers remodelling their bodies; not you Greg Norman.)

9).The LPGA Tour kicks off its season this week in Florida, with lots of eyes focussing on Lydia Ko who is still just 17. Amazing talent, 5 career wins already, and physically transformed from the 14-y-o who burst onto the scene three years ago. Jodi Ewart Shadoff is the leading GB golfer competing.

10).And so to Phoenix. It's fashionable to say that the season proper doesn't get underway until the boys reach Florida. Don't you believe it. The 2014/15 season will be more than 25% complete by the time the circus returns to California next week. Those who've played poorly (Casey, Donald, Gonzo, Harrington, etc) or not at all, will find they have a lot of catching up to do.    
The TPC Scottsdale has undergone some restoration/redesign work since we last saw it, Tom Weiskopf happily vacating the TV booth to enhance his design. So, it will be familiar to the pros, but slightly different.
The European contingent on hand is small but hopefully Molinari can continue last week's good work. Davis, Knox and Laird lead the GB&I competition and can build on recent good results, whilst Harrington makes another cameo.
But all eyes will be on the guy with the recently disfigured appearance, almost like watching a NASCAR race these days, the audience compelled to watch in case of a "wreck". Not you Allenby, the self-described "brown dude".

Golf Channel wrote:author Shane Ryan wrote that the four-time PGA Tour winner would openly challenge others’ talents upon meeting them and was so unpopular amongst his Augusta State teammates that they hoped he lost his match in the NCAA Championship final....

Ummm most people are a bit of d1ck when they are young and finding their way/level.

Golf Channel wrote:Most damaging in Ryan’s story, however, were the accusations that Reed cheated during qualifying rounds and stole from teammates during his time at Georgia.

You would imagine nobody would put this in print without hard proof..or does somebody else saying it's true count as corroboration?

Well I heard* someone say it's true...



*I didn't

He doesn't deny the charges!

Also, I found this vexing. Monty really loves to spout utter hogwash

Bob,
Trouble is that several other Tour players are part of the greater narrative, so that although Reed is the only player accused of "malfeasance", other teammates and opponents come across poorly also.
Would expect guys like English, Harman, Henley, Swafford, Norlander, even Uihlein to be keeping pretty quiet until they see how Reed plays his cards.

Patrick Reed wrote:“The accusations that were made against me are serious and were intended to damage my reputation and character. They will not be taken lightly. My team and my representatives are looking into all aspects of this matter, and we look forward to setting the record straight. 

“For now, I’m staying focused on my life in the present and being the best husband, father and golfer I can be.”

Interesting that there is not a denial in that statement.

At least he could have said:

"My memory is blank. Somebody must have slipped something in my drink."

Or

"I'm just making this statement to avoid getting fined."

Or even

"I did not have s.e.x with that woman."

Or even better, with a finger across his lips:

"Shhhhhhh...."

incontinentia wrote:He doesn't deny the charges!

Also, I found this vexing. Monty really loves to spout utter hogwash

He doesn't deny the charges?? So what?!?

Agree on Monty though; the man's a 24 carat pillock.

GPB wrote:

Patrick Reed wrote:“The accusations that were made against me are serious and were intended to damage my reputation and character. They will not be taken lightly. My team and my representatives are looking into all aspects of this matter, and we look forward to setting the record straight. 

“For now, I’m staying focused on my life in the present and being the best husband, father and golfer I can be.”

Interesting that there is not a denial in that statement.

Not really, no.

Navy


Are you just going to say these posts are in error or are you going to explain why you think differently? It is a pretty weak argument to just respond with "no".

navyblueshorts wrote:

incontinentia wrote:He doesn't deny the charges!

Also, I found this vexing. Monty really loves to spout utter hogwash

He doesn't deny the charges?? So what?!?

Agree on Monty though; the man's a 24 carat pillock.

Usually those accused of such things will deny them strenuously from the outset, it doesn't look good that Reed hasn't. He also doesn't mention legal action, which is pretty surprising, as if he's innocent there would be fairly hefty libel implications for those involved.

His statement was so broad as to be almost pointless.

Will it soon be Trump International Club, Highlands or Trump Gleaneagles, Scotland?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-02/diageo-puts-ryder-cup-host-site-gleneagles-hotel-up-for-sale

Tiger Woods at 50/1 for Torrey Pines.  About Even money to make the cut.

Still 18/1 for the Masters.

GPB wrote:Tiger Woods at 50/1 for Torrey Pines.  About Even money to make the cut.

Still 18/1 for the Masters.

Just checked on the betting Shops websites to see if there were longer odds, as I think he is going to win a big tournament this year. (Don't laugh). Odds pretty much as you say GPB , but on Ladbrokes site they have Big Brother odds under "Sports"

Maybe it's just a place to put it, but seems strange to me.

Oh dear is everyone incapable of reading between the lines these days? Are we so dumbed down that everyone has to state each point explicitly? Surely that is the sort of blandness that is criticized on other threads?

Reed didn't explicitly deny it - but the words definitely imply it. Sometimes a denial too explicit comes across as "thou protesteth too much"

Neither did he use the words "legal action" - but he did say his team and representatives were looking into it. Isn't that the same thing?

People these days are too expectant of having the sound bites spoon fed to them. Perhaps reading the actual words and comprehending them is beyond people these days

Sorry Davie, would have read it all but seemed far too wordy for me. Was Reed on the grassy knoll

robopz wrote:Surviving major winners age 80 or older...

Doug Ford  -  92  -  8/6/1922
Jack Burke Jr.  -  92  -  1/29/1923
Roberto DeVincenzo  -  91  -  4/14/1923
Arnold Palmer  -  85  -  9/10/1929
Peter Thompson  -  85  -  8/23/1929
Dow Finsterwald  -  85  -  9/6/1929
Bob Goalby  -  85  -  3/14/1929
Gene Littler  -  84  -  7/21/1930
Billy Casper  -  83  -  6/24/1931

Had I seen this the day you wrote it Robo I'd have said you forgot Kel Nagle, in the intervening days however the old fella sadly pegged it.

This is the excerpt that caused the controversy http://deadspin.com/how-patrick-reed-became-golfs-latest-villian-1682766305

An excellent read if you have 15 minutes to spare!

JAS,
No, robo posted it after King Kel pegged it.
But: Who did he miss out??!!


inco:
I thought it was a very poor piece of journalism so didn't post it!!!!

But I will repeat what a couple of us discussed which is that it is surprising (or not) how many of the better American golfers are successful despite being outside the Big College programmes - obviously Reed, but also DJ, Bubba SO'H, etc.

Poor in what way kwini? Its interesting to note how the wall of silence around Reed's reasons for being suspended parallels the PGA tour's secrecy whenever one of its members has to take a little break for "personal challenges". Is this a golf-wide phenomenon or does it just happen in America?

The article was a little speculative but nothing worse than most golf writing.

At worst Reed has cheated, had a few too many beers one night, been disliked by his teammates and parents and stolen a putter.

All a bit stupid but hardly the requiring the scrutiny the golfing world seem to be affording the situation. Unless he has done something a lot more sinister that has remained covered up his worst offence is probably thinking that Gerry Watson is the man to turn to if you want to rid yourself of homophobic tendencies.

I found it an interesting read. I don't think there's any world beating journalism or writing going on and it's an article/excerpt that raises more questions than answers but I thoroughly enjoyed it, cheers.

Only thing it lacks is any proper attribution except coach speak.
It'll be interesting to see how IMG handles it going forward.

Makes you think Anthony Kim is pretty smart to disappear completely!!

McLaren wrote:Navy


Are you just going to say these posts are in error or are you going to explain why you think differently?  It is a pretty weak argument to just respond with "no".

Mac. It's pretty clear. I'm not going to play this game with you any more (go and think for yourself and/or stop WUMming) but just this once, so we're clear. There's no a priori reason why not explicitly saying "It wasn't me Guv!" means someone is guilty of something. Do you seriously think that a lack of statement to the above effect would stand up in any rational debate? More fool you that a) you need this clarifying and b) you're daft enough to have a Daily Mail sort of brain; my sympathies.

navy wrote:There's no a priori reason why not explicitly saying "It wasn't me Guv!" means someone is guilty of something

No-one said that it means he's guilty.

In other news, Rory Mac's legal action against Horizon opens this afternoon.

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:Navy


Are you just going to say these posts are in error or are you going to explain why you think differently?  It is a pretty weak argument to just respond with "no".

Mac. It's pretty clear. I'm not going to play this game with you any more (go and think for yourself and/or stop WUMming) but just this once, so we're clear. There's no a priori reason why not explicitly saying "It wasn't me Guv!" means someone is guilty of something. Do you seriously think that a lack of statement to the above effect would stand up in any rational debate? More fool you that a) you need this clarifying and b) you're daft enough to have a Daily Mail sort of brain; my sympathies.

Navy I agree with you, it just seemed remiss of you to deal with inco's point in such a lackluster fashion. Sometimes you just reply without really expanding on your point, which is often quite an interesting take.

Caddies are suing the PGATour.  Mainly because they have to wear Bibs that adorned with the tournament sponsors.

In a unrelated story, Stevie Williams calls Adam Scott and wants his job back 

(OK I am kidding about the 2nd part)


http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/dennis-dodd/25027043/caddies-file-lawsuit-against-pga-tour-over-use-of-likeness-and-images?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

File under "only in America"

The Tour is owned by the players. The caddies are employed by the players. Therefore it's an issue between the caddies and the players, and should hence be considered in their mutual contract. So, forget suing the Tour, deal with directly with the players in stead.

Last week it was Reed and Spieth watching x-certificate stuff from Mr.Woods.
This week Messrs Horschel and Fowler get their chance.


pedro,
This is probably a pretty big deal - some deep-seated grievances from the caddies and this pretext is the tip of a much bigger iceberg.

I would like to see the players go with local caddies for a tournament. 

essentially, the caddies are suing the players since they are the PGATour.

If they are independent contractors they should sue their employer directly, not the Tour. The players should/could then sort it out with the Tour.

IMO the caddies have not given due diligence to this matter and should sort it in a different way.

pedro,
As I said earlier, this is the tip of the iceberg.
The caddies may be citing "caddies bibs" in this case, biut their grievances include being treated in a civilized way at the course, health care, image rights, etc, etc.
Not quite sure how individual caddie/player relationships work these out. (No sign of Bones or Joe LaCava on the list of litigants!)
Surely there needs to be some sort of collective bargaining for a collective agreement?

Remember that no so very long ago, players tried to organize, basically to gain access to the Tour's books which were as closely guarded a secret as their disciplinary information. At various times, guys like Azinger, Mark Brooks, Danny Edwards and a Rinker have been involved, quite apart from Greg Norman's go-round with the Tour.

The top players make a fabulous amount in pay & endorsements, but an even fabulouser amount in pensions and various other add-ons - there's no appetite for diluting any of that for journeymen, whether players or caddies.

robo would be much more literate and authoritative, but let's just say the caddies have a very good point.

kwinigolfer wrote:let's just say the caddies have a very good point.

OK I'm arguing from ignorance and happy to be proved wrong but like other posters I can't see how they have if they are employed by the player directly. I don't have recourse against my employer if I have to go to an industry conference and wear a name badge with the conference host/sponsor's insignia on.

I'm not saying the caddies shouldn't get more, they may well have a case for better pay/conditions but how they can sue the tour in this instance makes no sense to me. Kwin's "Surely there needs to be some sort of collective bargaining for a collective agreement" seems right to me.

Educate me people!

Roller, I am with you on this. I don't get why the caddies don't fight for a bigger share of their players income?

In what ways is a caddie the same as being self employed, and if anyone is self employed how does accumulating a pension work?


The players have presumably signed up to the tours regulations, and those regulations probably say "if you use a caddie then they wear the correct bib".

Like roller, I am not saying they shouldn't get more I just don't understand why this issue isn't about the player caddie relationship?

I suspect the Pros are on the same side as the caddies on this; there are several grievances which could be worked out caddie-to-Pro, especially in those comparatively rare cases where there's some permanence to their arrangement, but many others that couldn't.

Read a comprehensive list of grievances and then consider how many could possibly be resolved between caddie and Pro - that would still leave several others that need to be resolved with the Tour, not least image rights, revenue derived from bib advertising and accommodation at tournament sites.

Is there an easily accessible and collated list of grievances?

Unfortunately I guess the caddy's only recourse at present is to withhold labour, which wouldn't be a massive problem to a great many players.

Caddy Union?

Trying to flip it round (said the vicar about the prostitute). What would happen if, say, a caddy wore the required bib in such a manner (I don't know, dirty, ripped didn't wear) that the tour took umbridge. Who would they sue? The player? If they have recourse to the caddy directly then I guess it is only fair that the caddy can sue the tour?

Roller,

As I understand it (and I could be very wide of the mark), the main objectives for the caddies are access to health insurance and some sort of retirement plan, and this would be funded partly by revenue from bib advertising and image rights.
But they also want access to better facilities at tournament sites and a myriad of smaller concessions.

Some of the guys in the suit are very much part of the players' "teams", it's certainly not just a case of the rank and file being aggrieved. Interestingly, I don't see any of the European Tour guys among the plaintiffs, and that could very well be because they are covered by NHS and Pensions, both of which have to be funded/bought separately in the US.

Kwini

I have no issue with the caddies wanting health care and a pension, I would just question why their employers (i.e the player) doesn't already provide this. It would be good if the tour could also contribute something but for the players to just wash their hands of supporting the caddies welfare seems a bit odd.

Mac,
Most of the caddies don't have a long-term relationship with a Pro, it can be very much a month-to-month agreement.
Would you advocate this having to be renegotiated every time a caddie loses his job? This could get adversarial between the two, always someone to take a bag without the Pro having to chip in for what most of us would consider the bare essentials of an employer's responsibility. Get injured on the job? Tough tittie.

The employer's responsibilities are far different here than there; amazing they get away with it, but you'd be surprised/shocked at the abuses that occur on a routine basis, the exception invariably proving the rule.

kwini

I would make the players pay into a fund that all caddies have access to in order to gain access to health insurance, pensions and other benefits.

A player who does not chip in to the pot has to carry his own bag.

Yes, And someone would have to administrate it and enforce uniform compliance.
Ah! The Tour!!

Kwini


It could easily be run by an independent organisation, the caddies themselves or the players?

You seem very keen to say that the players bear no responsibility for the welfare of the caddies?

Mac,
They do.
But as is said so often, the players are independent contractors and, as such, have differing behaviours and sense of responsibility to their employees - remember, 95% of them are politically to the right of Dick Cheney.
Far better for the Tour to set standards, accept responsibility for collecting reasonable revenues that the caddies derive and distributing them in a way that's fair for all.
If Tiger and Rory wish to cut separate deals on top of all that, that's just the same as private health insurance/pension plan over and above the NHS/Pension service (whatever it's called).

Plus, ensure that caddies are allowed reasonable access to tournament facilities, etc.

I'm all for the caddies on this!!!!

kwinigolfer wrote:But as is said so often, the players are independent contractors

So are the caddies? Although I'm nowhere near close enough to the tour or US law to argue with any authority and admit I may well be hugely wrong.

While I can see a fluffy utopia where the tour acts as a central caddy agency and does all this, I don't see why it should unless caddies inc is formed as a subsidiary and registers, provides and funds all caddies and I don't get why it would or should do that either. I'd still say it's down to the caddy to ensure they have negotiated with their employer either the services they want or enough money to fund them, or they club together themselves and form a union/co-op to sort it out centrally (to benefit from bulk deals etc).

Basic facilities at tournaments, however, should be consistent for all non-paying operational associates (ie including players, caddies, administrators, marshals, rules etc) as that is a venue they are responsible for providing.

As an aside - Does the tour have to provide a set standard of facilities for the press? (he says realising that might scupper my argument if the tour grant them everything!!)

Agree that there are too many unknowns and assumptions in all this, but very confident that this action will be a force for some change.
How much we'll have to wait and see.

kwini, you've read your Macchiavelli well.... While we can't disagree that the caddies probably should have better conditions, I can't understand why you support the American disease of suing people.

Caddies are no way different from consultants. They also have to renegotiate their contract every time around, even if they're only with an employer a month.

If you want better terms you form a union or the like and sit down and negotiate. Or strike. Your leftist assumtions that the players are greedy selfish capitalists are a bit far flung. I'm quite sure most top players also want top caddies and form a stable long term cooperation - rather than having the odd Randy from the local country club.

Don't disagree with most of that pedro, except I don't usually "support the American disease of suing people".

You can say what you like about the players but if there was any will to treat the caddies, not their specific caddie but all caddies, more generously they'd've done it.

Don't agree with yr consultant analogy, but you're off at a tangent from the issues there anyway.

Remember also that in Britain health care and such benefits are a universal right. Not so for these guys, they have to buy their own insurance or go without any coverage whatsoever.

Some clarification on the Tour's agreements with the caddies, from Finchem:

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/finchem-mum-lawsuit-talks-player-caddie-relationship/

A friend who used to caddie on the E.T. lives a couple of doors down the street and knows several of the PGA Tour caddies, including Jimmy Johnson who's named in the suit as a plaintiff. I'll be interested to see what his perspective is.

at what point does woods start getting penalised for his WD's? would be interested to see where he ranks in terms of all time WDs if anyone has that stat.