England v Italy - Squads and Match Thread

[yappysnap]

  
ENGLAND v ITALY
14 February 2015
KO: 14:30
Twickenham Stadium

Referee: John Lacey (IRFU)
AR1: Pascal Gauzere (FFR)
AR2: Mike Fraser (NZR)
TMO: George Ayoub (ARU)

*****
So England have confirmed an unchanged squad after Parling is still ruled out injured.

ENGLAND's 23

Starting XV: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby). George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), James Haskell (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Nick Easter (Harlequins), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby).

ITALY
Luke McLean; Leonardo Sarto, Luca Morisi, Andrea Masi, Giovanbattista Venditti; Kelly Haimona, Edoardo Gori; Alberto DeMarchi, Leonardo Ghiraldini, Martin Castrogiovanni; George Biagi, Marco Bortolami; Francesco Minto, Mauro Bergamasco, Sergio Parisse.
Replacements: Andrea Manici, Matias Aguero, Dario Chistolini, Joshua Furno, Samuela Vunisa, Guglielmo Palazzani, Tommaso Allan, Giulio Bisegni

[HammerofThunor]

Is anyone expecting any changes to the starting 15? I don't think there will be.

[yappysnap]

Can't see any changes to the starting 15 to be honest then, at most Twelvetrees may have done enough to start if Lancaster wants to give him more game time. To be honest I don't think it's an issue which 12 starts and which comes off the bench.

I'd like to see Cipriani get a good 20 min cameo though

[yappysnap]

When was the last time we managed to put out the same side twice in a row?

[HammerofThunor]

1904

[nobbled]

It is a rare opportunity - same team twice (let alone in a row) - glad Lancaster is taking it!

[dummy_half]

I think they managed to keep a consistent team through most of last year's 6Ns - all the injuries seem to be happening before the international series rather than during the tests.

I don't see any changes to the starting line-up, but could see Cipriani and croft getting a half-decent run in the second half. If (as we should be) we are comfortably in front of a tiring Italy tem by about 60 minutes, I think their ability to stretch opposing defences could be handy in stretching the lead.

[yappysnap]

I think 36 will get a good run out too, his last performance off the bench will have helped his cause.

[yappysnap]

Oh and thank you to which ever Mod/Admin made my hastily fudged together op look decent too

[bluestonevedder]

Depending how the game goes, I'd love to see Cipriani get an extended run out, and potentially 36 replacing Burrell at some point around the 40 minute mark. 

Absolutely no disrespect to Italy, but I think there are some points to be scored once we gain parity over their pack. I thought the Italians did really well against Ireland for the first 60, but then just faded. Are they just unfit? Certainly a few of them are getting on a bit.

[SecretFly]

Depending how the game goes, I'd love to see Cipriani get an extended run out, and potentially 36 replacing Burrell at some point around the 40 minute mark. 

Absolutely no disrespect to Italy, but I think there are some points to be scored once we gain parity over their pack. I thought the Italians did really well against Ireland for the first 60, but then just faded. Are they just unfit? Certainly a few of them are getting on a bit.

I don't think England are going to toy with them as much as Ireland (in the sense of supposedly 'breaking them down first').

I think from the off, England will attempt to run around them and through them and get those Italian pulses and mistakes going early. Then 2nd half.........God bless Italy......

[bluestonevedder]

Depending how the game goes, I'd love to see Cipriani get an extended run out, and potentially 36 replacing Burrell at some point around the 40 minute mark. 

Absolutely no disrespect to Italy, but I think there are some points to be scored once we gain parity over their pack. I thought the Italians did really well against Ireland for the first 60, but then just faded. Are they just unfit? Certainly a few of them are getting on a bit.

I don't think England are going to toy with them as much as Ireland (in the sense of supposedly 'breaking them down first').

I think from the off, England will attempt to run around them and through them and get those Italian pulses and mistakes going early.  Then 2nd half.........God bless Italy......

Let's hope you're right SecretFly!

[Chjw131]

The performance in 2013 was abysmal and the first 25 minutes of last year we didn't make much headway, at least until they were a bit more direct.

That needs to be the watchword on Saturday. Treat the game as an exercise in winning the Chamnpionship.

[englandglory4ever]

There is more than a whiff of disrespect in some of these posts. Let's stay humble here. The Italian set piece can be very good. Nobody likes a gloater.

[bluestonevedder]

I don't think there's any disrespect in making an observation englandglory. 

The Italian set piece is definitely strong, but once their forwards tire they are prone to mistakes. The Ireland game is the perfect example.

[quinsforever]

have just re-watched england wales game

36's 10 minute cameo was the most involved 10 minutes i can ever remember seeing from any player ever. 3 tackles on faletau, north and north, 2 turnovers won. awesome impact.

[MichaelT]

have just re-watched england wales game

36's 10 minute cameo was the most involved 10 minutes i can ever remember seeing from any player ever. 3 tackles on faletau, north and north, 2 turnovers won. awesome impact.

I think its the instruction for the back replacement. I remember Farrell against Australia last November doing very similar work - chasing everything and tackling everything. Give it all you can for 10-15 minutes.

[yappysnap]

36 had a similar cameo in the past. It's when he starts that we all need to worry

[Pot Hale]

Since it's so slow, just thought I'd throw in an observation on last week's meeting between Ireland and Italy, the score they achieved, and how it compares to other years.  And a few other observations on Italy and their scoring performances over the lifetime of the 6N.

There's a general assumption that Italy are at the most gritty and grudging in their first match, particularly at home, and tired/lacking power by the final round, particularly away from home.   So I thought I'd look at these two rounds in particular, given that points difference may once again make the difference in deciding the championship winner.

Rather surprisingly, Ireland have met Italy 7 times in the first round since the beginning of Six Nations.  France next with 4, England twice, and Scotland only once.   It's odd because that kind of disparity doesn't seem to occur in the final round.

France and Scot have played them 4 times, Wales 3 times, and England/Ireland twice.  

Italy won three of their opening matches - Scotland (2000), Wales (2003) and France (2013).
And won three of their final matches - Scotland (2008), France (2012) and Ireland (2013).
Their losing margins in their opening matches have been:

In their opening matches of the 12 games they've lost the margins have been:
19H, 21A, 41H, 11H, 10A, 36H, 5A, 25A, 18A, 2H, 18A, 8A, 23H - an average of about 18 points, although the two big scores by England and France (41 & 36) skew that upwards a bit.

Ireland's score of 23 last weekend was the 4th highest overall, and the highest in the last 5 years. Pretty good since they were playing in Rome, right?  Well no.  

Italy are supposedly toughest in their first match in Italy.  But going on the figures above, they've averaged a losing margin of 22 at home and 15 away in round one.

Do they give up more points on average in the final round?   Yes - they've averaged 24 points across the 6N so far.  Does home advantage have any bearing?   Same as the first round - they've conceded an average 29 point margin at home compared to only 18 away.

So if a team is looking for points off Italy, then it's best to play them in Rome in round five it would appear, based on analysis of those two rounds.

Of course, all of Italy's wins in the first and final rounds have come at home too.

However, it's the second round that's most interesting.

Oh, I have to go for me tea.....hang on

[majesticimperialman]

I do hope that England keep the same 15 that started against Wales. Would like to see Burrell and JJ give another go. 36 on the bench like last week.

I don't think England will be taking Italy lightly, if they do it could well come back and bite in the bum big time.

[LondonTiger]

Italy make a number of changes, bringing back the 2old" boys Bortolami and Bergamasco.

Luke McLean; Leonardo Sarto, Luca Morisi, Andrea Masi, Giovanbattista Venditti; Kelly Haimona, Edoardo Gori; Alberto DeMarchi, Leonardo Ghiraldini, Martin Castrogiovanni; George Biagi, Marco Bortolami; Francesco Minto, Mauro Bergamasco, Sergio Parisse.
Replacements: Andrea Manici, Matias Aguero, Dario Chistolini, Joshua Furno, Samuela Vunisa, Guglielmo Palazzani, Tommaso Allan, Giulio Bisegni

[SecretFly]

It's nice to see all the online newspaper publications tighten up on their layouts by forcing people to scroll through acres of bloody needless pictures to get to an article they might like to read.

Reading for the illiterate and 'people who only like to look at the pictures'

[BamBam]

England confirm an unchanged starting line up

[lostinwales]

England unchanged

(Dammit 2nd.... )

[Rugby Fan]

Last time we were unchanged was Scotland last year (after the France game).

[BamBam]

[Pot Hale]

Italy's historical performance in the second round of the Six Nations looks like this:

H 16 47 Wal
A 23 80 Eng
H 12 29 Scot
H 13 37 Irl
A 0 25 Fra
H 8 38 Wal
H 16 31 Eng
A 7 20 Eng
A 19 23 Eng
H 9 38 Ire
H 12 17 Eng
A 13 59 Eng
H 15 19 Eng
A 10 34 Scot
A 10 30 Fra

Their average losing margin is 23 points.  At home this drops to 18, and away increases to 28 - the opposite of how they've done in their first and final matches.

England will play them for the 8th time in the second round this weekend.   They've posted some big margins against Italy in Twickenham (57 in 2001 and 46 in 2011). And had some small squeakers too (4pts in 2008).  On average, though, home and away, England have won by a margin of 21 points.  

Last season England won by 41 points playing Italy in Rome in the final round - where and when Italy appear to give up most points.

For all that, 41 points wasn't enough to win the Championship, so no point in England getting overly focussed on the winning margin.

[yappysnap]

If someone could post the England team for me to copy that would be great...

[HammerofThunor]

Lazy sod

Starting XV: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby). George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), James Haskell (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Nick Easter (Harlequins), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby).

[Scottrf]

The line with the bookies is England -28. Which seems to match up pretty well with Pot Hale's stats.

[No 7&1/2]

It would be nice to see another dominant display up front, some nice planned moves working and a bit of fizz from the wings. Would build up confidence a touch more for the tough trip to Ireland. I'd have to say I'm looking for this win to be quite confortable and not one of the close games. Fingers crossed it all clicks.

[Pot Hale]

The line with the bookies is England -28. Which seems to match up pretty well with Pot Hale's stats.

Yep the average overall in second round games is 28 and against England in Twickenham it's 30.

[lostinwales]

Good times. England had a bad start but stuck to the plan and won last Friday at a difficult venue. It is bound to give a lot of confidence to the players and to make the players have a lot of confidence in their coaches.

[Rugby Fan]

Wilson out for 3-4 months

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/feb/12/england-david-wilson-ruled-out-six-nations

Sorry if that's old news.

[Geordie]

So same team.

I thought he might have tweaked the bench a little (just to try a couple of players) but I guess you don't change a winning team / squad,

[Cowshot]

I'm just glad to see us able to put out the same side twice consecutively. I gather from the BBC that Lancaster would have brought Parling if he had recovered, but apart from had no plans to make changes. I suppose 50 or 60 min replacements depend on the state of the game but all being well I'd like to see Cipriani get a run. Other than that no strong feelings about replacements.

[gregortree]

I'm just glad to see us able to put out the same side twice consecutively. I gather from the BBC that Lancaster would have brought Parling if he had recovered, but apart from had no plans to make changes. I suppose 50 or 60 min replacements depend on the state of the game but all being well I'd like to see Cipriani get a run. Other than that no strong feelings about replacements.

Cippers ditto - been a long time so need to see what he has got (in an England shirt)
Saw him at Kingsholm with Sale and we (Glaws fans) thought he was man of the match.
Created, distributed, shrewd kicking, chip catch score....he did the lot.

[robbo277]

On Pot Hale's point, I was thinking about how England fluffed their lines against Italy in 2013 before the trip to Cardiff and only held on for a 7 point win. I checked and by the time that final game against Wales was done, England would have had to have beaten Italy by 47 to win the Championship regardless of the last game.

I guess it's a different dynamic if you have a 20 point start and maybe your heads don't go down against Wales and you keep fighting for the Championship, but in the last two tournaments we would have had to beat Italy by 47 and 51 points respectively to win the Championship on points.

A big win in Week 2 is obviously the target, but even a 30 pointer may not be enough if we're thinking about Championship winning points differences.

Basically we shouldn't be worrying about points difference and final permutations now, we can't win the Championship this week, but we could probably lose it.

[yappysnap]

Lazy sod

Starting XV: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby). George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), James Haskell (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Nick Easter (Harlequins), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby).

You are a scholar and a gentleman

[HammerofThunor]

And I just copied and pasted from the BBC website

[yappysnap]

It would be nice to see another dominant display up front, some nice planned moves working and a bit of fizz from the wings. Would build up confidence a touch more for the tough trip to Ireland. I'd have to say I'm looking for this win to be quite confortable and not one of the close games. Fingers crossed it all clicks.

That and I'd expect us to keep them try less. Of a pretty below average Ireland could do it last week then we shouldn't be letting tries in this week.

Also Ireland showed us that Italy's counter-mauling is terrible and we should be able to get points through that too.

[dummy_half]

On Pot Hale's point, I was thinking about how England fluffed their lines against Italy in 2013 before the trip to Cardiff and only held on for a 7 point win. I checked and by the time that final game against Wales was done, England would have had to have beaten Italy by 47 to win the Championship regardless of the last game.

I guess it's a different dynamic if you have a 20 point start and maybe your heads don't go down against Wales and you keep fighting for the Championship, but in the last two tournaments we would have had to beat Italy by 47 and 51 points respectively to win the Championship on points.

A big win in Week 2 is obviously the target, but even a 30 pointer may not be enough if we're thinking about Championship winning points differences.

Basically we shouldn't be worrying about points difference and final permutations now, we can't win the Championship this week, but we could probably lose it.

one difference this year is that Ireland have already played Italy and didn't run up a cricket score - won quite well, but not like last year. Not that we should be looking at points difference, just going out and winning each of the 5 games, and the rest takes care of itself.

Your last line is right though - a big win won't win us the Championship, but a loss or perhaps a narrow win might lose us it.

[robbo277]

I think last year Ireland didn't match our score against Italy, but they managed to beat Scotland and Wales by more. There's also the possibility of tying with Wales, France or even Scotland, so loads of permutations already.

[gregortree]

Aim high, just win every match.
Simply beat who is in front of you.
That is how England won their last slam.

I remember Dublin 2003. Repeat please.

[yappysnap]

For what it's worth, injuries aside I expect us to finish with a backline of:


Wigglesworth
May
Cipriani
Twelvetrees
Burrell
Joseph
Watson

Not too bad and let's us look at the scenario that'd occur if Brown was injured intra-match.

I really hope that with the passing game and running threat of Cipriani at 10, 36 wouldn't feel like he'd have to do everything himself and both centres could focus on running straight with prejudice then getting the offloads away.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

36 shouldn't feel he has to do everything with Ford either.

Even with Farrell, he must have an ego the size of the stadium if he feels he has to do everything. He is there to play his natural game, if he doesn't then he needs dropping.

[sirtidychris]

My guess is that Aguero is going to get a royal thumping from Cole i can see our first 12 points coming from kicks off scrum penalties, then an Aguero yellow and potentially the flood gates may then open. Personally i'd leave the backline together for 65minutes in that scenario to cement burgeoning partnerships, Croft needs gametime and Haskell or Robshaw could probably do with a lighter load this week and Vunipola needs to be wrapped in cotton wool.

[Cowshot]

I'm just glad to see us able to put out the same side twice consecutively. I gather from the BBC that Lancaster would have brought Parling if he had recovered, but apart from had no plans to make changes. I suppose 50 or 60 min replacements depend on the state of the game but all being well I'd like to see Cipriani get a run. Other than that no strong feelings about replacements.

Cippers ditto - been a long time so need to see what he has got (in an England shirt)
Saw him at Kingsholm with Sale and we (Glaws fans) thought he was man of the match.
Created, distributed, shrewd kicking, chip catch score....he did the lot.

Agree - he's looked very good this season in the games I've seen.

I think my biggest concern about the Italy game is that England are such firm favourites some players will try too hard to shine in order to lay claim to their position in a World Cup year. I don't see Italy doing us this year and tbh, the other two games are faaaar more interesting. Both look set to be absolute crackers.

[gregortree]

36 shouldn't feel he has to do everything with Ford either.

Even with Farrell, he must have an ego the size of the stadium if he feels he has to do everything. He is there to play his natural game, if he doesn't then he needs dropping.

I am a Glaws regular. I think it is more sense of 'duty' than ego.
For England he needs to have confidence in those around him and distribute to them wisely, sharply, and accurately.
He has issues sometimes in all 3 of these.

[lostinwales]

Betting on Cips coming on scoring/creating a load of points and then getting the meedja all excited?

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